Social contradiction on how we treat animals

Lady Haywire · 16-10-2018 2:19pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Yes. I live in a dairy area and next door to a beef farmer, have sheep, deer, ducks, geese in the area bred for food. Most of my neighbours are animal farmers in one form or another. Some are good carers, many less so. Some should not be allowed to have any animal. In the end though, it's just a commodity.

That's interesting. So what were they doing that you didn't agree with? The ones that you believe should have no animal, what did they do? Did you report them?

Tar.Aldarion · 16-10-2018 2:34pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

TA, yes, I agree. It can be odd having anti- or unsypathetic or simply non-knowledgeable contributors here, clogging the flow. Introspection is a good word in the context of this thread, thank you.

I'd never dream of going near an agri-farmers' forum, in the same spirit as I tell Fianna Fáilers or Fine Gaelers that they're wasting their time, money and energy coming to my door. But a veg*n is - hah - fair game. :rolleyes:

These people are perfectly welcome here as it's not a forum for vegans/vegetarians solely, however on both "sides" I see a lot of childish comments and lack of empathy towards the others and so I have had to start being harsher, as not a day goes by without reported posts. Such as infracting above. If somebody wants just a vegan or vegetarian opinion they can specify it in their opening post and I will honour the request. I'd hope that not all threads would be like that however.

Lady Haywire wrote: »

You're making it sound like we come here to make a mockery of veganism.
Every time I see something that's incorrect, could do with an explanation or is simply complete codswallop I will give a farming pov. I see no big sign saying meat eaters/beef/sheep farmers not allowed in here.

If all you want is a circle of vegans praising themselves for actions, looking at heavily edited videos, not grasping the simple points of actual agri farming, then yea go right ahead. How many of you here have gone around to local farmers, asked how they treat their stock and watched them care for them?
I'd be interested to hear if anyone had, or is most of your opinions based on what's portrayed across to you in media etc?

You're perfectly right, there is no rule against that and this community should be open to everyone and certainly not shame them, you don't win peoples hearts and minds by putting them down and frankly it's just in poor taste. At the same time if somebody comes here they should try to understand where the local inhabitants are coming from and their ethos. For instance, for vegans your point above may not gel well because making a living being into a well kept product is still making something that can feel into a product and killing it.

As for actually answering the question, both moderators here come from a farming background but that doesn't matter to the philosophical viewpoint put forward. For instance, this farmer clearly loves his animals and sent them to be killed, but didn't feel it was right and struggled with that, they were well cared for but it still did not sit right with him (https://vimeo.com/293352305/2e938735d). It's often the same from any people who are vegan who come from an Irish farming background where the animals are treated better than in other places, who are against the actual killing of the animal and so would disagree with things like killing male chicks to have eggs, killing of a well kept cow, pig, sheep and so on. The documentary I linked is also good for showing people that farmers are not just simply evil entities with no heart like they are too often demonized.

davidjtaylor · 16-10-2018 2:47pm

Lady Haywire wrote: »

That's interesting. So what were they doing that you didn't agree with? The ones that you believe should have no animal, what did they do? Did you report them?

I've contacted our local council a few times (not many) over the years about incidents (they're not that interested, this is a farmers' constituency, they're left alone) but the best approach is the farmer her/himself. You end up being buddies sometimes.

Neglect is one thing - not so much cattle as they're more commodified - but donkeys, horses, goats, dogs. Tied for days on end with little food, no room, no contact. Again, I tend to talk to the 'owners', it's by far the best way. But why should it be up to me? There's no place I can 'report' apart from the dog warden and he's stretched. And 'enforcing' the control of horses act is farmed out to a private company.

A common problem with cattle is them roaming. We've had years of work ruined by one animal getting in. OK, it was my fault on both occasions for leaving a gate open, I don't do that any more. But if you keep animals, you have to take full responsibility for them. I see lawns or gardens ruined and people say 'ah, it's one of the joys'.

Cattle standing in streams. Doesn't seem a good idea. Lambs mired in bog, the 'owner' takes a loss.

But of course generally I have to keep my head down - cows with udders so huge they can barely walk? Hey, that's business.

I'm not sure we're on topic here. :rolleyes:

Lady Haywire · 16-10-2018 3:12pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

I've contacted our local council a few times (not many) over the years about incidents (they're not that interested, this is a farmers' constituency, they're left alone) but the best approach is the farmer her/himself. You end up being buddies sometimes.

Neglect is one thing - not so much cattle as they're more commodified - but donkeys, horses, goats, dogs. Tied for days on end with little food, no room, no contact. Again, I tend to talk to the 'owners', it's by far the best way. But why should it be up to me? There's no place I can 'report' apart from the dog warden and he's stretched. And 'enforcing' the control of horses act is farmed out to a private company.

A common problem with cattle is them roaming. We've had years of work ruined by one animal getting in. OK, it was my fault on both occasions for leaving a gate open, I don't do that any more. But if you keep animals, you have to take full responsibility for them. I see lawns or gardens ruined and people say 'ah, it's one of the joys'.

Cattle standing in streams. Doesn't seem a good idea. Lambs mired in bog, the 'owner' takes a loss.

But of course generally I have to keep my head down - cows with udders so huge they can barely walk? Hey, that's business.

I'm not sure we're on topic here. :rolleyes:

I went off topic to bring it back on topic in a different direction. You say cattle aren't so much the ones you'd see being ill-treated,yet it's animals more often seen as social ones which are- namely horses & dogs. So why is this?
To paraphrase that joke of Jimmy Carr's, you wouldn't key your own car, so why on Earth would farmers willingly & knowingly abuse their own animals? They don't, pure and simple as that, if abuse is happening it's quite likely that it's a sign of something else being wrong, not just neglect for the sake of it.
I've reported cattle and horses before too, it's not something that should be tolerated and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of decent folk would feel the same.
Sheep or cattle can get chased by dogs and jump out, trees can fall on fences. It's not simply a case of the farmer doesn't care about what his animals does. I'll accept that there are those that do but it is not a large percentage and they will be disliked for it by neighbouring farmers too.
Cows with large hanging udders are not usually kept around too long tbh, they tend to be older and the muscle has gone. But the hindrance to walking would only be directly before milking time, slackness in the udder afterwards gives them ample time to dance around as they like. And believe me, if they seen a bucket of ration, they'd have no trouble moving in the slightest!!

I'm on the phone instead of laptop so If I've forgotten anything I'll get back to it later.

davidjtaylor · 16-10-2018 3:53pm

Of course, cattle wouldn't be out-and-out maltreated most of the time, because they're money, either in use or by their death. This is bigger point, really, echoing what TA says above.

I didn't mention pigs. There's a local piggery too. No-one's allowed in it, ostensibly for H&S reasons. But...no windows, no outdoor access, who knows what goes on inside? I'm reminded of Fiona Oakes being asked not to mention she's vegan, sponsors feel threatened, similarly, no-one asks about the pigs.

ganmo · 16-10-2018 4:01pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Of course, cattle wouldn't be out-and-out maltreated most of the time, because they're money, either in use or by their death. This is bigger point, really, echoing what TA says above.

I didn't mention pigs. There's a local piggery too. No-one's allowed in it, ostensibly for H&S reasons. But...no windows, no outdoor access, who knows what goes on inside? I'm reminded of Fiona Oakes being asked not to mention she's vegan, sponsors feel threatened, similarly, no-one asks about the pigs.

so in order to ensure better treatment of other animals we should find someway of making money from them?

Lady Haywire · 16-10-2018 4:04pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Of course, cattle wouldn't be out-and-out maltreated most of the time, because they're money, either in use or by their death. This is bigger point, really, echoing what TA says above.

I didn't mention pigs. There's a local piggery too. No-one's allowed in it, ostensibly for H&S reasons. But...no windows, no outdoor access, who knows what goes on inside? I'm reminded of Fiona Oakes being asked not to mention she's vegan, sponsors feel threatened, similarly, no-one asks about the pigs.

So then why so many videos echoing their sad, sorry lives which they have under us terrible farmers. Why are we the ones getting the backlash & not those who breed racehorses or puppies or designer cock-a-pugs or whatever they're called these days with eyes bulging out of their heads?
If all animals are equal, don't these deserve as much protesting as your average farmer? Perhaps even more so because these animals will suffer in their lives through years of inbreeding to get to these designer stages.

I can't say i know all that much about pigs, i'm sure others do. I do know that pig farms have much stricter controls because of disease prevention, since swine flue, possibly, I don't know. But there are enrichment toys etc being introduced to keep them occupied in the pens.

Nekarsulm · 16-10-2018 4:09pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Of course, cattle wouldn't be out-and-out maltreated most of the time, because they're money, either in use or by their death. This is bigger point, really, echoing what TA says above.

I didn't mention pigs. There's a local piggery too. No-one's allowed in it, ostensibly for H&S reasons. But...no windows, no outdoor access, who knows what goes on inside? I'm reminded of Fiona Oakes being asked not to mention she's vegan, sponsors feel threatened, similarly, no-one asks about the pigs.

Lots of pig units are self contained. Feed arrives as wheat and minerals and they have their own mill/mix feed plants.
Lots of machinery and ways to get hurt, so yes H&S is a very good reason why the general public cant walk around.
A more important reason is the H&S of the pigs.
No one gets in because most piggeries are run as "minimal disease" units.
In lots of these units (especially ones providing breeding stock) your work clothes and footwear never leave, and your "outside" wear dosn't get in.
Shower in and out.
I cant walk in and out of the sheds and feed plant, because who knows where I was last?
Some other piggery?
Every measure is taken to prevent exposure to harmfull pathogens, and to minimise the need to give antibiotics.

Nekarsulm · 16-10-2018 4:19pm

Lady Haywire wrote: »

. But there are enrichment toys etc being introduced to keep them occupied in the pens.

Yep, lots of toys and devices to keep pig from getting bored.
Things like weighted footballs etc.
A bored pig wil pick on another pig and start a fight, or bite the other pigs tail.
As soon as blood is drawn you are in real trouble.
In a few hours every pig in the group will be biting/bullying the victim, and bully them to death.
They then may or may not eat him.
This is why piglets have their tusks clipped and tails docked within days of birth.
A long tail waving about is irrestible to other pigs, like a ball of wool to a kitten.

Lady Haywire · 16-10-2018 5:18pm

I feel I ought to say that I'm definitely not against anyone who is vegan/vegetarian. Their lives- they can eat whatever they please. I have friends who are both and they'll ask questions about the cattle- why we do this and that etc & we chat, I explain and then life goes on around us.
It's when people do the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears while shouting 'La-la-la I can't hear you' that I take umbrage with it, especially if I see 'facts' being spouted that are simply untrue.

gozunda · 16-10-2018 5:30pm

Lady Haywire wrote: »

I feel I ought to say that I'm definitely not against anyone who is vegan/vegetarian. Their lives- they can eat whatever they please. I have friends who are both and they'll ask questions about the cattle- why we do this and that etc & we chat, I explain and then life goes on around us.
It's when people do the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears while shouting 'La-la-la I can't hear you' that I take umbrage with it, especially if I see 'facts' being spouted that are simply untrue.

^^^^
This ...

gozunda · 16-10-2018 5:35pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Of course, cattle wouldn't be out-and-out maltreated most of the time, because they're money, either in use or by their death. This is bigger point, really, echoing what TA says above.

I didn't mention pigs. There's a local piggery too. No-one's allowed in it, ostensibly for H&S reasons. But...no windows, no outdoor access, who knows what goes on inside? I'm reminded of Fiona Oakes being asked not to mention she's vegan, sponsors feel threatened, similarly, no-one asks about the pigs.

I'm sorry I strongly disagree with your overall sentiment there. The majority of farmers I know care for their animals not only because its the right thing to do but also because it makes no sense to do otherwise.

Is there exceptions? Yes there are. Exactly the same way that of those stories which have a small number of vegans mistreating the animals in their care. The human condition is not restricted to any one group.

Recognition of these facts are unfortunately largely absent here imo.

Base price · 16-10-2018 5:58pm

gozunda wrote: »

I'm sorry I strongly disagree with your overall sentiment there. The majority of farmers I know care for their animals not only because its the right thing to do but also because it makes no sense to do otherwise.

Is there exceptions? Yes there are.Exactly the same way that of those stories which have a small number of vegans mistreating the aninals in their care. The human condition is not restricted to any one group.

Recognition of these facts are unfortunately largely absent here imo.

Including the human animals in their care. There are horrendous accounts of human babies suffering from malnutrition at the hands of vegan parents :mad:

Worztron · 16-10-2018 7:38pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

These people are perfectly welcome here as it's not a forum for vegans/vegetarians solely...

I agree 100%. Echo chambers are pointless. Free speech means also having to listen to those you disagree with.

davidjtaylor · 16-10-2018 7:47pm

But veg*ns do raise hackles in others :P ...and let's face it, it academic how badly or well animals animals are treated, especially for vegans. One condition is a marginally lesser evil (or good, for the non-vegans here) than the other.

Worztron · 17-10-2018 10:58am

gozunda wrote: »

So you agree it doesnt matter where they were? Good! Pigs SQUEAL and make a heluva racket no matter what's going on. It shows the video you posted is nothing more than silly hyperbole and anthropomorphism.

You posted a video of feeding time for pigs. Not relevant to a slaughterhouse video.

I wonder why Earthling Ed was not allowed in the slaughterhouse to film the pigs being gassed? Do the slaughterhouses possibly have something to hide?

Another video on pigs being gassed:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=are+pigs+gassed+in+ireland+co2&atb=v55-5_a&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=sAUMnliNdMw

Hitman3000 · 17-10-2018 11:00am

Worztron wrote:

I wonder why Earthling Ed was not allowed in the slaughterhouse to film the pigs being gassed? Do the slaughterhouses houses possible have something to hide?

You must have skipped over the very detailed reasons as to why unauthorised persons are not allowed in. Only a few posts back.

Worztron · 17-10-2018 11:02am

gozunda wrote: »

You see that's where the faulty logic comes in. And it's easy to spot idiotic type comments by using similar substitution. Check it out...

"Hmmmm I'm pretty sure if you seasoned [rat] in the same way you'd get the same taste" lol

"Hmmmm I'm pretty sure if you seasoned [cacti] in the same way you'd get the same taste" lol

So do people eat 'rat' for example in this country No? Why is that? One of the main reasons because it's ****e meat - the same as dog. Even in the countries where dog is eaten it is unregulated and a backyard / black market trade. It's been banned in the Philippines and Hong Kong for health reasons such as Rabbies and Sars etc.

The nice thing about bacon is that not only is it delicous - It doesn't need seasoned. Just fry your rashers in a pan and serve straight up. Try it sometime - that is dont just be "pretty sure" - put your assumptions on the line - try dog or rat or whatever and then come back and tell us what it is like. Otherwise you are suffering from a very bad dose of cognitive dissonance indeed.

I would also like to know why vegans don't eat all vegetable matter? Cacti, Grass , Trees? Surely with a bit of seasoning it would all taste the same no?

Seasoned rat, seasoned cactus? Now that's just silly.

Eating grass and trees? Seriously?

ganmo · 17-10-2018 11:06am

Worztron wrote: »

Seasoned rat, seasoned cactus? Now that's just silly.

Eating grass and trees? Seriously?

what do you think wheat is?

Worztron · 17-10-2018 11:07am

ganmo wrote: »

what do you think wheat is?

I expect he meant grass from the garden.

Nekarsulm · 17-10-2018 11:11am

Worztron wrote: »

I wonder why Earthling Ed was not allowed in the slaughterhouse to film the pigs being gassed? Do the slaughterhouses possibly have something to hide?

You're being a bit wilfully obtuse now, Worztron.
Earthling Ed wasn't an employee of the factory, so why should he be allowed to wander about inside?
Would he be insured if he did get in somehow?
Would you expect to be allowed into any type of factory you took a fancy to?
Perhaps a warehouse, with multiple forklifts whizzing around? Have a bit of sense!

ganmo · 17-10-2018 11:12am

why not eat lawn grass if we eat wheat? thats what you are arguing for comparing eating dog and pork

Worztron · 17-10-2018 11:16am

ganmo wrote: »

why not eat lawn grass if we eat wheat? thats what you are arguing for comparing eating dog and pork

That's hardly equitable.

ganmo · 17-10-2018 11:19am

how so?

Worztron · 17-10-2018 11:21am

ganmo wrote: »

how so?

Ok, eat grass from your garden for dinner tonight and see how well you digest it. Grass is also not sentient.

ganmo · 17-10-2018 11:25am

if i processed grass enough i'd be able to digest it.
grass and wheat are equally sentient. pigs and dogs are equally sentient so I'm not sure why you're bringing that into it

Worztron · 17-10-2018 11:30am

ganmo wrote: »

if i processed grass enough i'd be able to digest it.
grass and wheat are equally sentient. pigs and dogs are equally sentient so I'm not sure why you're bringing that into it

How would you process it? You claim that grass is sentient?
Your comparison to begin with is a non sequitur.

ganmo · 17-10-2018 11:39am

no i'm saying that grass and wheat are equally sentient so refusing to eat grass because of sentient means you should also refuse to eat wheat on the same grounds.
we dont eat dog because its not nice the same reason we don't eat grass.

i'd probably start with boiling it or squeezing the juice out of it

gozunda · 17-10-2018 11:58am

Worztron wrote: »

You posted a video of feeding time for pigs. Not relevant to a slaughterhouse video.I wonder why Earthling Ed was not allowed in the slaughterhouse to film the pigs being gassed? Do the slaughterhouses possibly have something to hide?

You really don't get it? The noise that pigs make whether pigs been fed or being moved or just about anything sounds horrendous to humans ears. I've been with pigs during feeding time and I can tell you there was no difference whatsover in the sounds made.

The video you posted purported that the pigs were 'screaming" because of some fear or tortuous conditions. That was pure antrophmorphism. Anyone familiar with pigs would recognise as those sounds to be normal for pigs.

It's like every thing pushed has to be the most extreme propaganda. Interestingly the carbon dioxide video was also made up of different scenes and then looped.

I've have read up on the process and the average time death is less than 30 seconds. As for the stupid language that those extremists use to describe the process "they burn from the inside" wtf? It's not a flamethrower - it's a process where one gas is exchanged for another and death occurs realitivly quickly. Afaik they are currently working on other gas mixtures which will ensure almost instant unconsciousness. That is for the best imo.

I suggest you stop watching these types of daft propaganda films made by a very small minority of vegan extremists and read up on what really happens and make some real efforts to find out about normal animal behaviour .

Lady Haywire · 17-10-2018 12:29pm

Worztron wrote: »

You posted a video of feeding time for pigs. Not relevant to a slaughterhouse video.

I wonder why Earthling Ed was not allowed in the slaughterhouse to film the pigs being gassed? Do the slaughterhouses possibly have something to hide?

Another video on pigs being gassed:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=are+pigs+gassed+in+ireland+co2&atb=v55-5_a&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=sAUMnliNdMw

So at 49 seconds in that video, why does it cut to a different method of gassing pigs? Why not just show us the whole video which explains each method individually? I have watched both & your video conveniently shows both methods, doesn't specify that it's different methods & cuts off right before the narrator says -
"The pigs have lost their posture, they are most likely unconscious & do not experience anything. In this system there were approx 30 second of reduced welfare, & in this time frame there is a time frame of roughly 15 seconds of struggling which can be considered as suffering. Again these long monotone screams are most likely a residual reaction of the brain stem & spasms of the larynx in unconscious pigs.''

Entire video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adtjQDW9rVE

Social contradiction on how we treat animals

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