Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Zubeneschamali · 23-09-2019 7:28pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

I mean they should have the guts to take a damn position on the biggest issue to face the UK since WWII.

You mean they should take YOUR position. It happens to be my position too, but clearly many delegates do not agree with our position.

Strazdas · 23-09-2019 7:32pm

Lengthy interview with Johnson on Ch. 4 News just now. Lots of flowery and evasive language but he says he still wants rid of the backstop and is determined to be out of EU by end of Oct, no matter what

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 7:35pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You mean they should take YOUR position. It happens to be my position too, but clearly many delegates do not agree with our position.

No, I mean they should take A position. I thought I made that quite clear.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 7:51pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Lengthy interview with Johnson on Ch. 4 News just now. Lots of flowery and evasive language but he says he still wants rid of the backstop and is determined to be out of EU by end of Oct, no matter what

It's hugely depressing. Interminible.

I haven't had a chance to look into the Arcuri scandal stuff, but many seem to be indicating it's a resigning matter. That is in addition to those saying Boris will have to resign if it is found he 'lied to the Queen'.

I can't see him resigning. He would have to be forced out somehow. A vote of no confidence might serve his purpose though, so that is potentially out. Absoultely bizarre situation, proper twilight zone stuff.

Strazdas · 23-09-2019 7:56pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

It's hugely depressing. Interminible.

I haven't had a chance to look into the Arcuri scandal stuff, but many seem to be indicating it's a resigning matter. That is in addition to those saying Boris will have to resign if it is found he 'lied to the Queen'.

I can't see him resigning. He would have to be forced out somehow. A vote of no confidence might serve his purpose though, so that is potentially out. Absoultely bizarre situation, proper twilight zone stuff.

I can only guess he genuinely wants out of the EU, no matter what. He would hardly be gaslighting the Brexit section of the public to this extent so close to the Oct 31 deadline if that is not the plan.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 8:05pm

Strazdas wrote: »

I can only guess he genuinely wants out of the EU, no matter what. He would hardly be gaslighting the Brexit section of the public to this extent so close to the Oct 31 deadline if that is not the plan.

But could he be turfed out of office now from a scandal? I mean, take your pick.

You would have thought that in England of all places there would be no coming back from being found to have lied to the Queen. That said, in Brexit Britain nothing seems to be sacred anymore and no scandal is too damaging.

Strazdas · 23-09-2019 8:21pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

But could he be turfed out of office now from a scandal? I mean, take your pick.

You would have thought that in England of all places there would be no coming back from being found to have lied to the Queen. That said, in Brexit Britain nothing seems to be sacred anymore and no scandal is too damaging.

I do think he is going to lose the Supreme Court case too. That would be a quite devastating setback for any normal government but these are crazy times.

Itssoeasy · 23-09-2019 9:14pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

More smoke and mirrors bollocks.

Corbyn goes on about the need for certainty and clarity and then refuses to take a position on the #1 issue of our day. It's unimaginably cowardly. He is hugely dishonest.

Why cant he say what he believes in and argue for that? Because he doesnt think he can take people with him?

You could count English politicians with integrity on the fingers of your hands.

Whether you agree with the lib dems or not, at least they've had a consistent position of brexit. It may not help them electorally in the end but they've picked a path and are sticking to it.

If he doesn't think he can take people who may not have the same view as his then he's not PM material. Isn't the very thing you said one of the main things a politcal leader should do ?

Fr Tod Umptious · 23-09-2019 9:16pm

Strazdas wrote: »

I do think he is going to lose the Supreme Court case too. That would be a quite devastating setback for any normal government but these are crazy times.

British politics has gone to hell in a hand basket.

There was a time when you had political scandals here in Ireland with ministers refusing to resign and leaders refusing to sack them, one would look to the UK where politicians fell on their sword or got the boot in short order from the leader.

But now it's so different.
PM getting the chance to lost a major vote in parliament three times.
MPs voting against the whip without sanction.
A leader with scandals following him, lying to the queen etc.

It's cat really.
Where will it end.

Itssoeasy · 23-09-2019 9:18pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

J Mysterio wrote: »

I mean they should have the guts to take a damn position on the biggest issue to face the UK since WWII.

You mean they should take YOUR position. It happens to be my position too, but clearly many delegates do not agree with our position.

No J Mysterio like many others on this thread want Jeremy Corbyn to **** or get off the pot in regards to brexit. He has designs on being PM doesnt he ?

A Shropshire Lad · 23-09-2019 9:29pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Lengthy interview with Johnson on Ch. 4 News just now. Lots of flowery and evasive language but he says he still wants rid of the backstop and is determined to be out of EU by end of Oct, no matter what

I just watched that.
Gary might as well have interviewed the plant behind Boris

Sierra Oscar · 23-09-2019 9:45pm

The thinly veiled threats continue.

https://twitter.com/DExEUgov/status/1176233272856256512

maynooth_rules · 23-09-2019 9:48pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The thinly veiled threats continue.

https://twitter.com/DExEUgov/status/1176233272856256512

Completely oblivious to the fact that trade works both ways. They really are going the right way about becoming a pariah state

lawred2 · 23-09-2019 9:52pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The thinly veiled threats continue.

https://twitter.com/DExEUgov/status/1176233272856256512

the self importance knows no bounds

Akrasia · 23-09-2019 9:53pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The thinly veiled threats continue.

https://twitter.com/DExEUgov/status/1176233272856256512

Thinly veiled threat to the children of Britain. If there's a No Deal there'll be no toy for christmas

Genius

Strazdas · 23-09-2019 10:00pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The thinly veiled threats continue.

https://twitter.com/DExEUgov/status/1176233272856256512

I'd love to know what the end game is here and who these tweets are actually aimed at.

josip · 23-09-2019 10:03pm

I think it's obvious that the advertisements designed not to get a deal but to prevent the EU from granting an extension.
They are trying to provoke one of the EU countries into vetoing an extension request on October 31st, should it arrive.

briany · 23-09-2019 10:23pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1176174122310754305

"leadership".

Honestly, **** Corbyn.

"What do we want??!

Um.

When do we want it??!

Yes."

10000maniacs · 23-09-2019 10:48pm

Keir Starmer on Newsnight now struggling to defend Corbyn's strategy of election and referendum.
Labour are going to come a poor third in the next general election.

Capt'n Midnight · 23-09-2019 10:57pm

Enzokk wrote: »

So essentially it comes down to how the UK will treat Spanish citizens post Brexit, that will determine how their citizens are treated in Spain.

Rinse and repeat for every EU country.

25 different sets of rules for UK citizens who want to stay for longer than a work/holiday visa will allow. And good luck if you want to travel to another EU country.
Because every country has full control of immigration from outside the EU.

There's 26 different set of rules for citizenship, some won't allow you to hold dual nationality, like Spain. So any "expat" that went down that route might get rejected for UK citizenship if they tried to switch back again later.

volchitsa · 23-09-2019 10:59pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

Keir Starmer on Newsnight now struggling to defend Corbyn's strategy of election and referendum.
Labour are going to come a poor third in the next general election.

TBF the notion of rocking up to the EU negotiating team to ask them to reopen negotiations for a new deal which you have announced in advance that you are not actually going to support to get it passed in the UK is frankly stunning in its stupidity.

Why exactly would the EU agree to bother? What'd be the point? There is already a deal that Labour won't support, why negotiate another?

10000maniacs · 23-09-2019 11:05pm

volchitsa wrote: »

TBF the notion of rocking up to the EU negotiating team to ask them to reopen negotiations for a new deal which you have announced in advance that you are not actually going to support to get it passed in the UK is frankly stunning in its stupidity.

Why exactly would the EU agree to bother? What'd be the point? There is already a deal that Labour won't support, why negotiate another?

Corbyn makes it so easy for Johnson and the ERG and on the opposite side, the Lib Dems to pick holes in Labours strategy. I agree, it is pure stupidity. You can already hear the pitter patter of Labour voters going over to the Lib Dems.

Tell me how · 23-09-2019 11:06pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

Corbyn makes it so easy for Johnson and the ERG and on the opposite side, the Lib Dems to pick holes in Labours strategy. I agree, it is pure stupidity. You can already hear the pitter patter of Labour voters going over to the Lib Dems.

I'd say odds on the next government being a Tory one shortened considerably today.

SeaBreezes · 23-09-2019 11:12pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The thinly veiled threats continue.

https://twitter.com/DExEUgov/status/1176233272856256512

Now they are taking toys off kids for xmas..

https://mobile.twitter.com/blackyellowbrd
The Associated Press
"BREAKING: UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson says Iran is responsible for Saudi oil-industry attacks and the UK could join US-led military effort"
Be aware,
be scared,
above all,
be ready to resist.
#NotInMyName

Remember when I said they would go to war to distract? Groundwork being laid..

Capt'n Midnight · 23-09-2019 11:14pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The thinly veiled threats continue.

https://twitter.com/DExEUgov/status/1176233272856256512

Toys, Games, Sports Requisites account for 2.5% of the Czech Republic exports to the United Kingdom. Toys would account for some fraction of that, so maybe 1.5%

Also UK warehouses are full of Brexit stockpiling. Stuff from China takes weeks so more reliant on warehouse space than stuff that could otherwise be trucked from a more Pragmatic location in a day.

Bannasidhe · 23-09-2019 11:29pm

volchitsa wrote: »

TBF the notion of rocking up to the EU negotiating team to ask them to reopen negotiations for a new deal which you have announced in advance that you are not actually going to support to get it passed in the UK is frankly stunning in its stupidity.

Why exactly would the EU agree to bother? What'd be the point? There is already a deal that Labour won't support, why negotiate another?

I actually think it's a decent stragety - but one I am not sure an electorate used to being spoon fed and seemingly incapable of doing any deep thinking is prepared for.

The Tories are gung-ho Leave whatever the cost (now that the dissenters have been purged).
The Lib Dems are Remain, Remain, Remain.

BUT - the British electorate is split nearly down the middle.

The Remainiacs (:p) know what they want. That's easy.
But the Leavers aren't 100% sure - there is nuance there. Some want No Deal sure but others would like to leave by some method other than ramming the whole economy into a wall.

So - negotiate a deal that isn't beholden to placating hardline Tories and the DUP. Rub out May's red lines.

Aim for a compromise that makes no body completely happy but the majority can live with. Enough of a separation that Leave can grudgingly vote for it (hard liner notwithstanding), enough ties that Remainers can still feel a teeny bit 'European'.

A fudge deal to reflect a close vote in the first referendum.

Then go to the country and say to the electorate this is up to you.

This is the best deal we can get -it will deliver this, this, and this as we wanted but we have to compromise on that and no way are we getting t'udder.
What we will do under this deal is leave the EU.

or we can Remain.

The government is not going to try and persuade you, the electorate, either way.
We are not going to cajole, bully, spread fear or hope.
We are going the simply give you the two options and allow all you adults to decide for yourselves. Like proper grown up adults.

Tell me how · 23-09-2019 11:33pm

Apparently efforts to return Thomas Cook holiday makers is the largest peacetime repatriation every held in the UK.
150K travellers worldwide.
Is this the Dunkirk spirit Mark Francois was calling for?

ballsymchugh · 23-09-2019 11:36pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I actually think it's a decent stragety - ...

it probably is, as there's no hope of labour getting a majority after an election unless something freaky happens. just like the lib dems, the pre election promise won't make it out of any coalition/confidence and supply discussion. i doubt Corbyn would make it out the far side of them either tbh.

but all the research will show that labour leavers won't support any other party. they're more die hard labour supporters than leavers. labour will lose more to the lib dems than they will to brexit or tories.

J Mysterio · 23-09-2019 11:50pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Apparently efforts to return Thomas Cook holiday makers is the largest peacetime repatriation every held in the UK.
150K travellers worldwide.
Is this the Dunkirk spirit Mark Francois was calling for?

'Operation Matterhorn' apparently. I wonder is it actually the plans to 'repatriate' UK citizens in the event of a No Deal crashout, but they are now being applied in this, as a sort of learning experience. Why else would this all be ready to go to save a private holiday company. Also, i've seend it said that the money involved in the effort is four times what it would cost to save TC.

fr336 · 23-09-2019 11:55pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

'Operation Matterhorn' apparently. I wonder is it actually the plans to 'repatriate' UK citizens in the event of a No Deal crashout, but they are now being applied in this, as a sort of learning experience. Why else would this all be ready to go to save a private holiday company. Also, i've seend it said that the money involved in the effort is four times what it would cost to save TC.

Nah, this is standard practice. The CAA laid on rescue flights for Monarch passengers too.

Capt'n Midnight · 23-09-2019 11:57pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

In fact, had a committed Remainer been leader of Labour in June 2016, the current debacle wouldn't exist. Yet again, Corbyn was watery at best. His lack of commitment was a decisive factor in Leave's win.

Watch the first 20 seconds to see that lack of commitment. He could have easily swung that 1.6%

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36506163/corbyn-i-m-seven-out-of-10-on-eu

This whole Brexit mess happened on his watch.

Goodbye working time directive.
Goodbye EU health and safety.

He's betting all of that on a long shot accumulator.

IF labour win the next election and
IF they can get a new deal with the EU with different unicorns and
IF they win a referendum
Then they can block EU citizens from taking UK jobs and nationalise failing state industries

But only until the Tories get back into power and swing the pendulum back until Labour get in again.

Bannasidhe · 24-09-2019 12:16am

ballsymchugh wrote: »

it probably is, as there's no hope of labour getting a majority after an election unless something freaky happens. just like the lib dems, the pre election promise won't make it out of any coalition/confidence and supply discussion. i doubt Corbyn would make it out the far side of them either tbh.

but all the research will show that labour leavers won't support any other party. they're more die hard labour supporters than leavers. labour will lose more to the lib dems than they will to brexit or tories.

I can't speak for Corbyn's motivation and it's been 30 years since I spoke to the man but it wouldn't surprise me if he believes he is genuinely putting the needs of his country above party politics by offering both sides in a very divided country an option they can (grudgingly) agree on enough to break the deadlock.

The Tories are only courting the Leavers.
The Lib Dems are only courting the Remainers.
If either one wins millions of people are going to feel very excluded.
Not a great way to lead a country imho.

The PM should try and find a consensus - not feed the divisions. Johnson and Swinton are uncompromising. Lack of compromise and hardline divisions are what led UK politics into it's current quagmire.
That and the cult of personality. Feck having a 'charismatic' leader. Charisma doesn't formulate good policy, it smiles at cameras and gives pithy soundbites.

Infini · 24-09-2019 12:24am

lawred2 wrote: »

the self importance knows no bounds

Said it before and Ill say it again

Human Stupidity is the cancer of this existence.

And Brexit will be the biggest example of when Idiot's refuse to believe factual evidence, stubborn fools refuse to admit they're wrong, chancers and greedy parasites are allowed to get rich of malicious intent and those who put party and ideology before the common good would rather wreck their own country for their own Vainglory.

WE still have a few weeks yet though to go and if the court ruling skewers Boris for his suspending parliment we might see some hopeful movements to remove these cancerous muppets from power and maybe see some sense return but there's no chance of a deal at this stage IMO the only way this might chance is if both theres an extention and the Tories are kicked out of power. Both need to happen if there's any hope of a positive outcome because so long as these 2 things don't happen a crash out is very likely given the current cirsumstances.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-09-2019 12:28am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I can't speak for Corbyn's motivation and it's been 30 years since I spoke to the man but it wouldn't surprise me if he believes he is genuinely putting the needs of his country above party politics by offering both sides in a very divided country an option they can (grudgingly) agree on enough to break the deadlock.

Lib Dems are only going for a referendum,
unless they win a majority in a GE, which they could rightly view as winning a remain referendum.

Offering a choice ?

48.11% voted remain. We know exactly what they wanted.

The rest just need to agree on what they want.
And until more than 48.11% agree on the same achievable thing then under the UK FPTP system remain is the clear favourite.

ballsymchugh · 24-09-2019 12:32am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The PM should try and find a consensus - not feed the divisions. Johnson and Swinton are uncompromising. Lack of compromise and hardline divisions are what led UK politics into it's current quagmire.
That and the cult of personality. Feck having a 'charismatic' leader. Charisma doesn't formulate good policy, it smiles at cameras and gives pithy soundbites.

the cult of personality is why Corbyn is still where he is.

johnnyskeleton · 24-09-2019 1:10am

J Mysterio wrote: »

Its about the future of the county. Its all at stake, but they are too cowardly to take a position for the sake of a few votes, which might be saved.

They have all the information on how damaging Brexit will be, of any type. This is a failure to lead. They are a disgrace.

Also their previous Brexit Red Lines (or tests as they called them, to disdinguish themselves from the Tories) included a red line that any brexit must have the same benefits as staying.

Thats clearly now not possible (that is to say, it was never possible but now the UK knows that) so what is the status of their previous, albeit vague, position on Brexit? Is it now just nothing?

I think Labour will lose all margingal voters to Lib Dem or Brexit party. What they are talking about now is basically resetting the Brexit clock and people dont want another 3 years of nonsense, and im not sure the EU would agree to it either

Bannasidhe · 24-09-2019 1:11am

ballsymchugh wrote: »

the cult of personality is why Corbyn is still where he is.

There I have to disagree.

Corbyn is there because he is a socialist - he is the figurehead of the actually left in the internal struggle between the socialist left and 'new' labour's whigs mk II and no-one bar the grass roots thought he had a chance of winning the leadership. They were wrong.

Personality wise he's not exactly riveting.

People forget that there are actually still socialists* in the Labour Party - they were not in favour in New Labour, but they are there among the ordinary membership and for a very long time were just hanging in there out of loyalty to the party. Not me - I sent my membership card back to Kinnock, but I know a lot of them across the UK. They welcomed Corbyn because they hoped for a return to the politics of Attlee and away from the liberal whig ideology of Blair.

Corbyn has tried to expound on his policies because that is what he cares about but Brexit has sucked the air out of politics in the UK. It's a vampire.

This suits the Tories as they can shout and bang the Brexit drum and drown out everything else - particularly any examination of the real harm their policies have done to ordinary people.

The LibDems have found their rallying cry - and that's banging the Brexit drum too. But what other policies do they have? What will they do if they win a majority besides Remain? They talk a lot about the great tradition of the Whigs but leave out the parts about how the Whigs were the mill owners and industrialists who exploited the very workers the LP was formed to represent.
They throw out all the great concepts they believe in like Liberty and Equality. Well that's peachy Jo but what are you actually going to do to achieve these things? When you check her voting records there are a lot of qualifiers 'Jo Swinton almost always voted for equality'. The LibDems say they will reverse the Tory cuts to Welfare - but Swinton voted for the Bedroom Tax, voted against increasing welfare in line with increased prices, voted against any increase in illness and disability payments, voted against schemes to help combat youth unemployment and voted for cutting benefits.
Jo Swinton voted like a Tory.

Brexit is like our Treaty. You are either for it or against it - and when you look closely at the parties on either side there really isn't a huge ideological difference between them.

*I'm not talking about communists or Militant Faction/ Hatten and his mob. They were...*insert dismissive term for people pushing an agenda for their personal benefit*

quokula · 24-09-2019 1:12am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I can't speak for Corbyn's motivation and it's been 30 years since I spoke to the man but it wouldn't surprise me if he believes he is genuinely putting the needs of his country above party politics by offering both sides in a very divided country an option they can (grudgingly) agree on enough to break the deadlock.

The Tories are only courting the Leavers.
The Lib Dems are only courting the Remainers.
If either one wins millions of people are going to feel very excluded.
Not a great way to lead a country imho.

The PM should try and find a consensus - not feed the divisions. Johnson and Swinton are uncompromising. Lack of compromise and hardline divisions are what led UK politics into it's current quagmire.
That and the cult of personality. Feck having a 'charismatic' leader. Charisma doesn't formulate good policy, it smiles at cameras and gives pithy soundbites.

Well said. Corbyn has so often been the only adult in the room on this.

A soft Brexit negotiation (no unicorns, completely compatible with the withdrawal agreement, but with closer ties and custom union which the EU is completely open to) first of all, and a referendum to confirm that deal versus remaining.

That’s the absolute best case scenario the UK could possibly hope for. It amazes me the amount of criticism it receives when the only alternatives are either a completely ruinous hard Brexit, or promising to completely revoke which would basically silence more than half the electorate and destroy faith in politics there for years to come.

woohoo!!! · 24-09-2019 6:11am

All of them are putting party before country. All of them are looking for the best way to maximise seats under FPTP whilst keeping the party together insofar as possible. All of them are chasing unicorns, have little understanding or really care about the issues that Brexit presents on this island. A hard Brexit will and needs to happen. It will accelerate a UI which will of course be a massive challenge but will finally remove Westminster interference. After that I don't care what they want.

listermint · 24-09-2019 8:27am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There I have to disagree.

Corbyn is there because he is a socialist - he is the figurehead of the actually left in the internal struggle between the socialist left and 'new' labour's whigs mk II and no-one bar the grass roots thought he had a chance of winning the leadership. They were wrong.

Personality wise he's not exactly riveting.

People forget that there are actually still socialists* in the Labour Party - they were not in favour in New Labour, but they are there among the ordinary membership and for a very long time were just hanging in there out of loyalty to the party. Not me - I sent my membership card back to Kinnock, but I know a lot of them across the UK. They welcomed Corbyn because they hoped for a return to the politics of Attlee and away from the liberal whig ideology of Blair.

Corbyn has tried to expound on his policies because that is what he cares about but Brexit has sucked the air out of politics in the UK. It's a vampire.

This suits the Tories as they can shout and bang the Brexit drum and drown out everything else - particularly any examination of the real harm their policies have done to ordinary people.

The LibDems have found their rallying cry - and that's banging the Brexit drum too. But what other policies do they have? What will they do if they win a majority besides Remain? They talk a lot about the great tradition of the Whigs but leave out the parts about how the Whigs were the mill owners and industrialists who exploited the very workers the LP was formed to represent.
They throw out all the great concepts they believe in like Liberty and Equality. Well that's peachy Jo but what are you actually going to do to achieve these things? When you check her voting records there are a lot of qualifiers 'Jo Swinton almost always voted for equality'. The LibDems say they will reverse the Tory cuts to Welfare - but Swinton voted for the Bedroom Tax, voted against increasing welfare in line with increased prices, voted against any increase in illness and disability payments, voted against schemes to help combat youth unemployment and voted for cutting benefits.
Jo Swinton voted like a Tory.

Brexit is like our Treaty. You are either for it or against it - and when you look closely at the parties on either side there really isn't a huge ideological difference between them.

*I'm not talking about communists or Militant Faction/ Hatten and his mob. They were...*insert dismissive term for people pushing an agenda for their personal benefit*

It's amusing and odd that you figure point Swindon for voting like a Tory. When Corbyns been voting like a Tory for 2 years.

He is basically the ladder for a Troy brexit . He wants brexit as much as the next erg member and all the cost of his members livelyhood. There's nothing socialist about that policy. It will destroy families and jobs. But case. Anyone that supports him is a nut case and no different to the rabid erg supporters.

Absymal performance and absymal finger pointing at other parties I think alot of internal reflection is needed in the momentum labour party.

VinLieger · 24-09-2019 8:28am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Watch the first 20 seconds to see that lack of commitment. He could have easily swung that 1.6%

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36506163/corbyn-i-m-seven-out-of-10-on-eu

This whole Brexit mess happened on his watch.

Goodbye working time directive.
Goodbye EU health and safety.

He's betting all of that on a long shot accumulator.

IF labour win the next election and
IF they can get a new deal with the EU with different unicorns and
IF they win a referendum
Then they can block EU citizens from taking UK jobs and nationalise failing state industries

But only until the Tories get back into power and swing the pendulum back until Labour get in again.

This is the arrogance of Corbyn I cannot comprehend, say he wins the election and they do leave Europe which is exactly what he wants. He institutes all of his glorious socialist ideas yet at the next election its entirely likely they will lose to the tories who will decimate everything he has done in that timeframe.

BUT then they also won't have the umbrella of base eu protections and laws so the Tories will take things even further than they have before.

And still there's the chance they wont win the coming election and the tories decimate things a couple of years earlier.

Its a level of arrogance that makes no sense.

Strazdas · 24-09-2019 8:47am

woohoo!!! wrote: »

All of them are putting party before country. All of them are looking for the best way to maximise seats under FPTP whilst keeping the party together insofar as possible. All of them are chasing unicorns, have little understanding or really care about the issues that Brexit presents on this island. A hard Brexit will and needs to happen. It will accelerate a UI which will of course be a massive challenge but will finally remove Westminster interference. After that I don't care what they want.

I'd be inclined to agree. The only thing that can kill off the Brexit virus is it being seen to fail disastrously.

FrankPoll. · 24-09-2019 8:54am

Who'd want to be in charge of implementing brexit Britain

None of them I'd say including Johnson

everyone of the leaders will kick it back to the voters

Leroy42 · 24-09-2019 9:02am

The issue I have with Corbyn is he is so ineffectual at outlining why Brexit is such a mess. He has failed to show up the lies of Brexit, failed to demand proper investigation into Leave campaign, failed to highlight the reality if what Brexit actually means for people.

Instead he has continued to hold this non committal position that either or is fine.

Grand that he thinks Brexit can be a success, so law out why the Tory version can't be and why No Deal is so damaging.

If he was doing that constantly banging the drum that No Deal would be a disaster, the acceptance of it as a actual policy would be far more questioned

FrankPoll. · 24-09-2019 9:05am

Leroy42 wrote: »

The issue I have with Corbyn is he is so ineffectual at outlining why Brexit is such a mess. He has failed to show up the lies of Brexit, failed to demand proper investigation into Leave campaign, failed to highlight the reality if what Brexit actually means for people.

Instead he has continued to hold this non committal position that either or is fine.

Grand that he thinks Brexit can be a success, so law out why the Tory version can't be and why No Deal is so damaging.

If he was doing that constantly banging the drum that No Deal would be a disaster, the acceptance of it as a actual policy would be far more questioned

BJ was on the both sides of the fence before he got in

He's still on both sides of the fence now while claiming to be pushing for brexit

Russman · 24-09-2019 9:08am

Strazdas wrote: »

I'd be inclined to agree. The only thing that can kill off the Brexit virus is it being seen to fail disastrously.

I'd agree that the only cure for Brexit is Brexit (as someone said in an earlier thread).

But its gone on so long now and positions are so entrenched, its really hard to see how reality will dawn on anyone. The population will be fed and mostly will believe that its all someone else's fault "....if only those Europeans and Irish would give us everything we want....."

There is just no compromise over there, its all absolutes from "we won, you lost, get over it" to "17.4m people voted for......" - there's never a mention of the 16 million that voted against or even how to strike a balance that tries to accommodate most of the people.
Even Corbyn is just as wedded to his hardline beliefs as any ERG member is to theirs, its just unfortunate that the ERG are frighteningly close to getting their objective, whereas JC is realistically miles away from ever reaching his (whatever it may be).

FrankPoll. · 24-09-2019 9:11am

No deal brexit isn't close IMO, that's just political hot air

An extension is close

farmchoice · 24-09-2019 9:22am

FrankPoll. wrote: »

No deal brexit isn't close IMO, that's just political hot air

An extension is close

absolutely and i have been saying this all along, it cant happen its just too mental.
BUT and its a big BUT, it is the default position as the uk government have to request an extension before they can get one so if by accident or design that fails to happen out they go.

the shocking reality is that Johnson will want to keep the tory party together above all else because the only thing worse in the world then a crash out is breaking up the Tories and both him and the party being out of power for a generation. so much much better to crash out and win an election and try and fix it then.

his only way out of this is to at the very least appear to be as gung ho as possible for a crash out, make it clear that he wont send any request despite the fact that he is legally obliged, in the hope that parliament once again move against him and arrange to send it themselves/remove him from power.

then he can go to the country as a true brexiteer.

VinLieger · 24-09-2019 9:22am

FrankPoll. wrote: »

No deal brexit isn't close IMO, that's just political hot air

An extension is close

Proroguing parliament and pushing for an election that would have them no deal by default is not political hot air though.

Akrasia · 24-09-2019 9:25am

Aaron banks has been cleared by the National Crime Agency according to LBC (can't find any other news link)

The NCA couldn't find any evidence that he broke any laws

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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