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Milk and Dairy

12467…12

Comments

  • #152
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Adding to the negative health aspects; milk causes calcium deficiency and provides a good dose of estrogen to adult humans, which is particularly immasculating for men who drink dairy milk, more seriously it cam lead to increased risk of breast cancer in women.

    Calcium deficient and less manly men drink dairy. Marketing campaigns from the dairy industry do their best to hide these facts.

    Are you sure could you share a link so we can all read it.


  • #153
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    SnowyMuckish wrote: »
    So so cruel, awful, awful life for these poor creatures. I’m not vegan or vegetarian. I would like to consider it but it’s something I’ve grown up with, how do you cut real milk from your coffee? How do you deal with the loss of nutrition? Dairy and meat are such a substantial parts of our diet and it’s in everything. It’s very hard to remove....

    I too have grown up with it. So too have the majority, almost ALL of vegans. The information is there! There comes a time when you have to take a stance which makes you feel more comfortable and in line with your moral ethics and there is no easier time to do this than today with the wealth of information available on the web.
    If there wasn't such a hunger for this more caring outlook we wouldn't have the huge economic market and mass movement we now see.
    All you need to do is join Challenge 22 and begin to incorporate the easy to follow plant based meals in to your week and help rid ourselves of the indifferent exploitation of these suffering creatures.
    Humans thrive through adaptation. You just need to make the first step. For some that first step is switching out cow milk for (unsweetened) soy milk in your coffee.

    Here's the Challenge 22 link
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://challenge22.com/&ved=2ahUKEwimpI6sys3oAhXEShUIHTkTCUwQFjAAegQIBxAD&usg=AOvVaw2lq5IqLH7gE8gsvtwkYwFz


  • #154
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    SnowyMuckish wrote: »
    So so cruel, awful, awful life for these poor creatures. I’m not vegan or vegetarian. I would like to consider it but it’s something I’ve grown up with, how do you cut real milk from your coffee? How do you deal with the loss of nutrition? Dairy and meat are such a substantial parts of our diet and it’s in everything. It’s very hard to remove....

    It really isn't. There are thousands of farmers around Ireland who would be more than willing to share what they do on a daily basis with you, along with thousands of videos etc on twitter. There's no such thing as a silly question either, it's better to go to the source for facts than read misinformation online & take it as absolute truth.


  • #155
    SnowyMuckish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 870 ✭✭✭SnowyMuckish


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    It really isn't. There are thousands of farmers around Ireland who would be more than willing to share what they do on a daily basis with you, along with thousands of videos etc on twitter. There's no such thing as a silly question either, it's better to go to the source for facts than read misinformation online & take it as absolute truth.

    Can you point me towards some videos?


  • #156
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    SnowyMuckish wrote: »
    Can you point me towards some videos?

    Sure, I'll send you a message in a wee while when I'm at the laptop. Easier to link off that than the phone.


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  • #157
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Will she see the videos of forceful impregnation of cows? What does a cow saying NO! sound like?
    How about cows stunned and with a slit throat hanging upside down who happen to be pregnant while the calf visibly struggles inside her due to anoxia?
    Will she see the videos of mother cows pining for the few days old calf which are stolen away from her?
    Will she see the vulnerable calves transported huge distances in hard cold trailors often left hungry and thirsty?


  • #158
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    auspicious wrote: »
    Will she see the videos of forceful impregnation of cows? What does a cow saying NO! sound like?
    How about cows stunned and with a slit throat hanging upside down who happen to be pregnant while the calf visibly struggles inside her due to anoxia?
    Will she see the videos of mother cows pining for the few days old calf which are stolen away from her?
    Will she see the vulnerable calves transported huge distances in hard cold trailors often left hungry and thirsty?

    No but can someone share videos of puppies and kittens taken as pets from their mothers. Not sure about the distance but those trailers are bedded with straw which is rather comfortable to be fair. No cow is killed by slitting the throat in the EU unless it's for religious reason.


  • #159
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Are you sure could you share a link so we can all read it.

    Treasure trove and highly recommended source for purely science based analysis of food with no vested interest;
    https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dairy/

    Specific links in respect of estrogen consumption and the impacts on men; the link to weaker bones generally and link to increased risk of breast cancer in women;

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/dairy-estrogen-and-male-fertility/

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-milk-good-for-our-bones/

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-effects-of-hormones-in-dairy-milk-on-cancer/


  • #160
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dairy/

    Look from an independent source not someone trying to sell me a book on vegan recipes.

    Come on like.


  • #161
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    auspicious wrote: »
    Will she see the videos of forceful impregnation of cows? What does a cow saying NO! sound like?
    How about cows stunned and with a slit throat hanging upside down who happen to be pregnant while the calf visibly struggles inside her due to anoxia?
    Will she see the videos of mother cows pining for the few days old calf which are stolen away from her?
    Will she see the vulnerable calves transported huge distances in hard cold trailors often left hungry and thirsty?

    You do know a bull doesn't ask a cow before he jumps on her either (insert any other male animal of choice (stag, dog etc) A.I is safer & smaller bulls can be chosen so a smaller cow won't be in trouble trying to have a big calf. But oh dear, that's sensible isn't it. Can't have that.
    Cows should not be slaughtered pregnant imo, but sometimes the choice is forced upon farmers if the cow goes down with TB.
    Cows & sheep will form a bond if allowed, yes. Some will also attack the calf or lie on it. How loving.
    There are good & bad transporters. Vegans are hardly going to show videos of the ones which actually treat calves correctly. That wouldn't fit in with their agenda now, would it.


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  • #162
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Look from an independent source not someone trying to sell me a book on vegan recipes.

    Come on like.

    Right. Every video has links to studies. An easy to follow source of information for your little brain was the purpose of providing that website link. Bury your head in the sand if you want but dairy drinking men have poor bones and poor fertility. Not very manly.


  • #163
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Right. Every video has links to studies. An easy to follow source of information for your little brain was the purpose of providing that website link. Bury your head in the sand if you want but dairy drinking men have poor bones and poor fertility. Not very manly.

    Just because a man is infertile dosnt make him less manly like what the feck those manly even mean. You sir are an ass


  • #164
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,982 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Right. Every video has links to studies. An easy to follow source of information for your little brain was the purpose of providing that website link. Bury your head in the sand if you want but dairy drinking men have poor bones and poor fertility. Not very manly.

    Your posts are quite immature


  • #165
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Gary kk wrote: »
    No.

    And why is that do you think? Because these abhorrent practices do the opposite of promoting the industry. They show the full scale of the industrial process of sentient individuals.
    We can't have that can we? No. Better just show the 'stock' skipping in the fields and being patted on the head by the gentle farmer.
    Gary kk wrote: »
    but can someone share videos of puppies and kittens taken as pets from their mothers.

    They shouldn't until they are weaned. It is now illegal since the 1st February when new legislation introduced prohibits the sale of pups under 8 weeks of age.
    Puppy farms are illegal.
    The indifference to domesticated cats is huge as are resultant feral populations.


  • #166
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    Cows should not be slaughtered pregnant imo, but sometimes the choice is forced upon farmers if the cow goes down with TB.

    Remember this stat?
    On average 3pc of dairy cows, 1.5pc of beef cattle, 0.5pc of pigs, 0.8pc sheep and 0.2pc of goats in the EU are slaughtered during the
    last third of gestation , according to an expert judgement from the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA).


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/experts-say-3pc-of-dairy-cows-are-slaughtered-while-heavily-pregnant-35802390.html

    Of the slaughtered cows, 23.5 per cent were pregnant and 26.9 per cent of these were in the third trimester. The three main reasons for culling were infertility (28.2 per cent), mastitis (21.8 per cent) and old age (15.8 per cent). In 50.9 per cent of cases the farmer thought that the cow was not pregnant. In 66 per cent of the returns the cow had run with a bull. The average age of the slaughtered cows was 7.9 years. The records were categorised as 'OK' when they were consistent with the stage of pregnancy found post mortem, as 'error' when there were slight inconsistencies and 'gross error' when there were more serious discrepancies.

    https://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/136/7/162


  • #167
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    auspicious wrote: »
    Remember this stat?
    On average 3pc of dairy cows, 1.5pc of beef cattle, 0.5pc of pigs, 0.8pc sheep and 0.2pc of goats in the EU are slaughtered during the last third of gestation, according to an expert judgement from the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA).


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/experts-say-3pc-of-dairy-cows-are-slaughtered-while-heavily-pregnant-35802390.html

    I do, and I don't believe I ever said I agreed with it. You seem to have just skimmed over the part where i mention TB positive cattle have to be slaughtered regardless of being incalf or not which would add to any figures.

    Here's the thread if you want to read it again. We don't get paid for it & to my knowledge, farmers aren't told if the fetal serum is taken from cows or not. So make of that what you will- https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058029929


  • #168
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    auspicious wrote: »
    And why is that do you think? Because these abhorrent practices do the opposite of promoting the industry. They show the full scale of the industrial process of sentient individuals.
    We can't have that can we? No. Better just show the 'stock' skipping in the fields and being patted on the head by the gentle farmer.



    They shouldn't until they are weaned. It is now illegal since the 1st February when new legislation introduced prohibits the sale of pups under 8 weeks of age.
    Puppy farms are illegal.
    The indifference to domesticated cats is huge as are resultant feral populations.

    Ah you dont pat them on head, you scratch behind their ears. Pat them on the head tut tut never heard of the likes.

    Because the bound is less at 8 weeks?


  • #169
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    I do, and I don't believe I ever said I agreed with it. [/url]

    It persists because people consume dairy. It's not spoken about and the consumer is definitely not told about it. They just see the neat packaging with the pretty ribbon.
    Who cares if you agree or not? It's about the animals and their world experience. They have to suffer it.


  • #170
    Tilikum17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Tilikum17


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    It really isn't. There are thousands of farmers around Ireland who would be more than willing to share what they do on a daily basis with you, along with thousands of videos etc on twitter. There's no such thing as a silly question either, it's better to go to the source for facts than read misinformation online & take it as absolute truth.

    Remember lads & ladies.....there’s nothing cruel about it.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/almost-30000-male-calves-slaughtered-at-10-days-old-last-year-968607.html


  • #171
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    auspicious wrote: »
    It persists because people consume dairy. It's not spoken about and the consumer is definitely not told about it. They just see the neat packaging with the pretty ribbon.
    Who cares if you agree or not? It's about the animals and their world experience. They have to suffer it.

    I was giving my opinion on it. Am I not even allowed to do that here?
    As I stated in that thread, it's not just dairy. So why do you persist in claiming that it's there because people consume dairy.


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  • #172
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    I was giving my opinion on it. Am I not even allowed to do that here?
    As I stated in that thread, it's not just dairy. So why do you persist in claiming that it's there because people consume dairy.

    Dairy is the most ubiquitous product stemming from agricultural animal exploitation.


  • #173
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Tilikum17 wrote: »
    Remember lads & ladies.....there’s nothing cruel about it.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/almost-30000-male-calves-slaughtered-at-10-days-old-last-year-968607.html

    I cant defend that and I wont defend that. I look after all my calves and it would be a cold day in hell before i would do that.


  • #174
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Treasure trove and highly recommended source for purely science based analysis of food with no vested interest;
    https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dairy/

    Specific links in respect of estrogen consumption and the impacts on men; the link to weaker bones generally and link to increased risk of breast cancer in women;

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/dairy-estrogen-and-male-fertility/

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-milk-good-for-our-bones/

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-effects-of-hormones-in-dairy-milk-on-cancer/

    If you are going to edit a post so much a least leave a note at the end to say it was edited


  • #175
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    Gary kk wrote: »
    If you are going to edit a post so much a least leave a note at the end to say it was edited

    The Dr Greger who seems to run that website is the author of several books promoting strict veganism. Funny that. Must be total coincidence.


  • #176
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    The Dr Greger who seems to run that website is the author of several books promoting strict veganism. Funny that. Must be total coincidence.

    But its not vested ;-)


  • #177
    jh79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,285 ✭✭✭jh79


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Treasure trove and highly recommended source for purely science based analysis of food with no vested interest;
    https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dairy/

    Specific links in respect of estrogen consumption and the impacts on men; the link to weaker bones generally and link to increased risk of breast cancer in women;

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/dairy-estrogen-and-male-fertility/

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-milk-good-for-our-bones/

    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-effects-of-hormones-in-dairy-milk-on-cancer/

    Dr Gregor is a complete charlatan .

    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/


  • #178
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,618 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    The Dr Greger who seems to run that website is the author of several books promoting strict veganism. Funny that. Must be total coincidence.

    Follow the money. There are plenty of people making good money of vegans and producing dubious “science” based articles to feed their emotional weakness.

    It comes back to the old nugget.

    Vegans are allowed live whatever life choices they make even though for many it compromises their health and well being.

    Veganism needs to rein in the extremists that beat down on the choices of others. The extremists want to implement some sort of fascist regime where only they get to choose what the whole population eat and how we live, that’s a really unhealthy stance for society.

    The fact that we rarely see vegans condemning the extremists they are facilitating this behaviour and so are culpable in it.

    Farming needs to be held to the highest standards. I want that myself. I Beleive in an-extensive rather than intensive farming method and there is so much more we can be doing for biodiversity and water quality.


  • #179
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    The Dr Greger who seems to run that website is the author of several books promoting strict veganism. Funny that. Must be total coincidence.

    Just want to point out all the proceeds of all his books are donated to charity.


  • #180
    TheRepentent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭TheRepentent


    auspicious wrote: »
    Just want to point out all the proceeds of all his books are donated to charity.
    So he makes money off selling sh1te but it's ok cos it's given to charity?

    What charities does he give the money ?

    Wanna support genocide?Cheer on the murder of women and children?The Ruzzians aren't rapey enough for you? Morally bankrupt cockroaches and islamaphobes , Israel needs your help NOW!!

    http://tinyurl.com/2ksb4ejk


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes

    https://www.btselem.org/



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  • #181
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    My apologies for being late getting back to this thread you-all ;)

    Reading the replies of some since my last comment - I think this needs restating ..m
    Its tragic and bizarre to once again see those who choose a particular lifestyle attempt to use such incidents as a stick to best all and sundry and never shut up with the same old bs.

    Using the anti-farming paid opinion pieces from the Guardian as an 'anonymous' source on accusatory farming practices is little better than expecting the pope to come out in support of contraception and be believable

    Where there are incidents of poor animal welfare - that should be dealt with. Not used as propaganda for the few.

    And to this ...
    auspicious wrote: »
    It persists because people consume dairy. It's not spoken about and the consumer is definitely not told about it. They just see the neat packaging with the pretty ribbon.
    Who cares if you agree or not? It's about the animals and their world experience. They have to suffer it.

    In all spheres of human food production- there are issues. Modern day slavery / forced labour exists in the fruit and vegetable industry because people continue to want to buy their cheap and exotic fruits and vegetables . So to use your words -

    "It's not spoken about and the consumer is definitely not told about it. They just see the neat packaging with the pretty ribbon.
    Who cares if you agree or not? It's about the [people] and their world experience. They have to suffer it."

    And again where there are incidents of poor practices such as poor animal welfare or the forced labour of poor people - that should be dealt with. Not used as a stick to beat everyone over the head with.


  • #182
    AMKC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,299 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    I am not Vegan but I also do not drink cows milk or have any dairy products and have been doing so for at least 12 years. I will continue to not because I have a choice but because it does not agree with me. I did drink a lot of milk before that but now mostly drink Soya milk and some rice milk.
    I have a cousin who can drink it but does not see drinks soya and rice milk instead. I also have a sister who used to not be able to drink it but very recently she found out she could but she did not like it when she tried it and does not drink it. She drinks Soya milk.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • #183
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    AMKC wrote: »
    I am not Vegan but I also do not drink cows milk or have any dairy products and have been doing so for at least 12 years. I will continue to not because I have a choice but because it does not agree with me. I did drink a lot of milk before that but now mostly drink Soya milk and some rice milk.
    I have a cousin who can drink it but does not see drinks soya and rice milk instead. I also have a sister who used to not be able to drink it but very recently she found out she could but she did not like it when she tried it and does not drink it. She drinks Soya milk.

    Be aware much of the highly processed soy based liquids produced have a bunch of additives and a significant amount of sugar.

    That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

    Oh and soy is one of the major allergens which have to be declared as an ingredient

    And no I'm not a dairy farmer ...

    Not quite the health food its made out to be tbh


  • #184
    AMKC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,299 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    gozunda wrote: »
    Be aware much of the highly processed soy based liquids produced have a bunch of additives and a significant amount of sugar.

    That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

    Oh and soy is one of the major allergens which have to be declared as an ingredient

    And no I'm not a dairy farmer ...

    Not quite the health food its made out to be tbh
    I know what my allergies and intolerances are and soy thankfully is not one of them.
    What's wrong with it been grown in South America?

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • #185
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    AMKC wrote: »
    I know what my allergies and intolerances are and soy thankfully is not one of them.
    What's wrong with it been grown in South America?

    This:


    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/vegans-should-stop-drinking-soya-milk-in-order-to-save-the-rainforest-39454774.html


  • #186
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Seeds from the soybean plant provide high protein animal feed for livestock, and 80% of Amazon soy is destined for animal feed; smaller percentages are used for oil or eaten directly.

    https://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/amazon/land-use/soy

    Almost 1.7mt of soya and maize genetically modified (GM) products were imported into Ireland for animal feeds in 2017, constituting approximately 50% of total feed imports.

    We depend two times more on imported animal feed than our neighbours

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-30832683.html#:~:text=Almost%201.7mt%20of%20soya,from%20continental%20Europe%2C%20including%20Ukraine.


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  • #187
    antor
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭antor


    gozunda wrote: »
    That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

    Alpro , Europe's biggest producer of "soy liquid " get all their soybeans from French farms.

    I don't think that has any impact on deforestation in South America.


  • #188
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Auspicious - incorrect as to the point made.
    Nearly all soybeans are processed for their oil. Soy processors (such as Cargill & ADM) take the raw soybeans and separate the oil from the meal.

    https://ncsoy.org/media-resources/uses-of-soybeans

    For each bean processed 20% is oil and the remainder (80%*) is mainly 'meal'.

    The fact is almost all soy oil is sold for HUMAN use.

    And yes most of that 'meal' left over from the production of oil - is used for animal feed including dog food, cat food, horse feed and also used for feeding chicken, pigs and yes some goes for 'cow' feed.

    For example - here is it being used in 'vegan' dog food


    In Ireland grass and fodder make up the largest proportion of all feed types for cattle.
    ...drinking milk produced from cows in Ireland uses far less soya than consuming drinks made from soya.

    "Vegans and others who buy milk substitutes made from soya for their latte and cappuccino, or breakfast cereal, are also harming the planet. They would do better to switch to milk from cows, and especially cows traditionally grazed on grass, if they want to help make a more sustainable planet," the report states.


    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/vegans-should-stop-drinking-soya-milk-in-order-to-save-the-rainforest-39454774.html

    As for the article about feedstuffs being imported into Ireland. The reason is because our climate and topography and soils are generally not suited to growing arable crops*. In the UK - this is less an issue and it therefore depends much less on such imports.

    This is why grass-fed livestock farming is so important here.

    * note this is where your '80%' figure in your first link comes from.


  • #189
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    antor wrote: »
    Alpro , Europe's biggest producer of "soy liquid " get all their soybeans from French farms.
    I don't think that has any impact on deforestation in South America.

    I believe the actual figure for 'Alpro' is 60% from French farms - and that only since 2019. So no not 'all' by any means.

    But I think you will find the Alpro Corporation is certainly not the only producer of soy liquid derivatives in town.

    I'd suggest a bit more research if you really dont believe that soy production is not a cause of deforestation in South America

    Here's some videos of a case which was taken in the US - where cheap soy waste was being incorporated into prison meals. Scarey watching ..

    https://hartkeisonline.com/2009/11/13/prison-soy-press-conference-videos/


  • #190
    antor
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭antor


    gozunda wrote: »
    I believe the actual figure for 'Alpro' is 60% from French farms - and that only since 2019. So no not 'all' by any means.

    You're right , they only get 60% from Europe, the other 40% comes from Canada.

    At the last count, in 2017, 60% of the soybeans Alpro used were sourced in Europe (the target was 50%). The other 40% came from Canada. Here in Issenheim, 100% of the beans have been sourced within a 50km radius since 2009. “[By doing that] we shorten the supply chain and limit the transport footprint,” ​explained Greet Vanderhayden, sustainability manager at Alpro.
    gozunda wrote: »
    But I think you will find the Alpro Corporation is certainly not the only producer of soy liquid derivatives in town.

    Ture , but if you look at this list you will see that the majority of soy liquid producers in Europe, (apart from a few outliers), get their soyabean from within the EU or Canada.

    https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food-drink/shopping-guide/vegan-non-dairy-milk
    gozunda wrote: »
    I'd suggest a bit more research if you really dont believe that soy production is not a cause of deforestation in South America

    I never said that , Im well aware that soybean production in South America is detrimental to the environment. I was saying that a company that doesn't get its soyabean from South America would hardly have an impact on deforestation in South America.


  • #191
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    antor wrote: »
    You're right , they only get 60% from Europe, the other 40% comes from Canada...


    I think the main point is Alpro (which is owned by Danone) is certainly not the only corporation selling soy liquid derivitives. And its not only Europe where this is an issue btw.

    That said Alpro in Europe seems to have cleaned up its act in the last 3 years. Good on them.

    But I strongly suspect that's down to the negative publicity of Soy related deforestation and same affecting its market share.

    The statement attributed to them in your link is just downright ambiguous tbh.

    In the past where we did not source our beans from Brazil, they were also not from our rainforest or deforested areas"

    Similar ambiguity has got them in hot water previously

    https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2020/02/05/Danone-to-rethink-communication-on-Alpro-soy-product-following-accusations-it-misleads-consumers

    The list linked certainly gives some brands as being sourced from EU and elsewhere

    However at the bottom of that list it details
    EcoMil, Granovita, Holland & Barrett, Co-op, Aldi, M&S

    No info found.

    Most of the supermarkets source soya from South America.


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  • #192
    antor
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭antor


    gozunda wrote: »
    I think the main point is Alpro (which is owned by Danone) is certainly not the only corporation selling soy liquid derivitives. And its not only Europe where this is an issue btw.

    Here is a more extensive list , it's also more up to date. It includes Silk ,the US biggest soy liquid producer (also owned by Danone) they use home grown soybeans.

    https://www.viva.org.uk/soya-planet

    Just back to that article you linked

    https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39454774.html

    The headlines 'Vegans should stop drinking soya milk in order to save the rainforest'

    Do you really believe that ??

    Just had a quick look online and apparently there is 73 million vegans worldwide (Im sure thats a very loose figure)

    You would have to reduce that number due to some people having a soy allergy.

    Reduce it again as some vegans just don't like soy juice (it's an acquired taste).

    Reduce it again to account for the people that buy soy juice from producers that don't use soybeans from South America , which is the majority.

    And with the number of people that's left , if they gave up drinking soy juice we could save the rainforest.

    What a load of BS


  • #193
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    antor wrote: »
    Here is a more extensive list , it's also more up to date. It includes Silk ,the US biggest soy liquid producer (also owned by Danone) they use home grown soybeans. ]https://www.viva.org.uk/soya-planet
    Just back to that article you linked
    https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39454774.html. The headlines 'Vegans should stop drinking soya milk in order to save the rainforest'
    Do you really believe that ??
    ...


    It was already noted from your previous link that supermarkets source a lot of soy from S. America

    And notably Asia Pacific dominates the market as many countries like China, India, Japan, South Korea, and Hong Kong are the major consumers of the product

    Selected information from random website promoting veganism and conjectured back of napkin calculations doesn't really cut it tbh. So if you dont mind I'll leave that discussion there.

    As for the article - the headline is an attention grabber for sure lol.

    From the article.
    The global consumption of soya products has been rising, but many are produced on deforested land with the Amazon rainforest suffering great losses due to soya production

    And yes I think that has merit. It makes a point. That eveyone should stop using soy products from S. America. Especially where it impacts rainforest and other fragile habitats. And no its not just liquid derivitives of soy, or soy oil. Its all highly processed soy products. Soy often sourced in S. America is now added to bread and confectionery, used to make fake meats and added as a filler to an ever increasing amount of foods. See the videos I linked previously.

    Ireland has a huge benefit over many countries in that the bulk of what cattle are fed is grass based. Yes some feeds are imported and from my own investigations into this - it would appear that much of this comes from the EU and the US.

    Personally I'm not a fan of soy products for a wide range of reasons.


  • #194
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Jjameson wrote: »
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8722215/amp/vegan-parents-starved-baby-nutrients-badly-one-year-old-developed-cerebral-palsy.html


    Cruelty??

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DGThg6xaOXvE&ved=2ahUKEwi6pPO-gf7rAhXxRBUIHUtqCLoQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2s3DxmohWrVoyB0y5c0AUq


    Negligent parents
    https://www.google.com/search?q=obese+1+year+old&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&prmd=isnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ7dDfhP7rAhUKRhUIHTxNDPwQ_AUoAXoECA4QAQ&biw=360&bih=594&dpr=3#imgrc=kw86yOsgOA176M


  • #195
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Jjameson wrote: »
    https://www.irishpost.com/news/irish-american-couple-starved-toddler-death-vegan-diet-charged-murder-175974

    Inflicting their “belief” on an infant.
    Strict radicalised Vegan parents = cruelty to children.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwbGZ7agvo
    No forced beliefs. Just a healthy diet.


  • #196
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Jjameson wrote: »
    Like any child reared in a cult. Monkey see monkey do. Leaving a child malnourished in a first world country because of a deranged narrative or as I more commonly known as “ belief” is disgusting.

    .

    Have you never lovingly referred to your own kids as little monkeys �


  • #197
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Jjameson wrote: »
    Wtf.

    Monkey see monkey do. Why did your kids eat what they ate? Because of your beliefs perhaps? Did did have a baptism?
    All parents force their beliefs on their children.


  • #198
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    auspicious wrote: »
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwbGZ7agvo
    No forced beliefs. Just a healthy diet.

    Tbf - it wasnt healthy for that child. And with that I think that article brings this thread to a point.

    There are lots of reports of children and babies ending up with life threatening conditions and / or malnurishment having been fed exclusively vegan diets.

    And no out of respect for the forum - I'm not going to list any of them.

    Regardless of how horrendous these reports are - in all probability they represent only a fraction of people. Much as the absolute majority of dairying farms are managed both ethically and legally contrary to the title of this thread

    It would be interesting to see the resulting outrage if someone started a thread in the farming forum - titled "Vegan diets = cruelty to children".

    Time for this thread to be closed down and stop encouraging hate against others.


  • #199
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Jjameson wrote: »
    Requiring regular blood tests, artificial supplements. The diet is an ethical choice for people based on a nonsensical narrative. It’s unfortunate it didn’t render some of the examples above sterile quite quickly enough to save the suffering of their innocent offspring.

    https://qz.com/1622642/making-your-kids-go-vegan-can-mean-jail-time-in-belgium/amp/

    There should be European directives.

    The public, even doctors, are not taught about nutrition.
    Every parent should know how to feed their child a healthy diet.
    The article you posted addresses concerns about inadequately provided diets by unknowledgeable parents.
    This should also apply to negligent parents feeding kids a terrible diet of sugar and fast food, that grow obese or have tooth decay and fillings etc as a result.

    From your article
    "...Although there have been case reports of children failing to thrive or developing cobalamin deficiency on vegan diets, these are rare exceptions,” the academy notes on its website. “Multiple experts have concluded independently that vegan diets can be followed safely by infants and children without compromise of nutrition or growth and with some notable health benefits.”


  • #200
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    This thread is about Milk and dairy = cruelty, and the suffering, abuse and torture animals suffer for an unnecessary diet as it has been proven and signed off on by numerous experts that a diet without meat and dairy is adequate and healthy.
    The hate vegans have is for the suffering animals endure unnecessarily at human hands.
    But I think that is known already.


  • #201
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Jjameson wrote: »
    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/29/vegans-trial-death-baby-breast-milk
    Yes. Again negligent parenting. You are not doing a lot to convince people of your belief.
    I think you are in the wrong page. You should be preaching about the perils of bad parenting on the Parenting page.


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