Dublin - BusConnects

marno21 · 05-04-2018 11:25pm #1

Two weeks after a similar publication for Metrolink, the NTA have published a tender for design of 16 Core Bus Corridors for the BusConnect project:

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=127159&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

LXFlyer · 06-04-2018 12:48am

The infrastructural element of this project is due to go to public consultation this month, while the redesigned bus route network is due to go to consultation in June.

cgcsb · 06-04-2018 11:56am

It's a pitty this and the plaza wasn't done and in place during the 5 year construction of BXD. There will now have to be temporary solutions to accommodate CG plaza until bus connects goes ahead.

bk · 06-04-2018 12:04pm

Brilliant I've always felt that proper infrastructure change along bus routes can have a fantastic improvements on bus journey times and reliability.

I've experienced it with the road widening works at the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra. A very minor scheme in the greater scheme of public transport projects has removed a major bottleneck and easily taken 15 minutes off the bus journeys times into town at peak hours for the many bus routes along their corridor.

And that was just 100 meters or so worth of works. Imagine what works like this all over the city could bring us!

LXFlyer · 06-04-2018 12:08pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a pitty this and the plaza wasn't done and in place during the 5 year construction of BXD. There will now have to be temporary solutions to accommodate CG plaza until bus connects goes ahead.

This is the really damning element of this whole fiasco.

I sadly predicted well over a year ago that exactly this scenario was likely to happen and we would be left with an unholy mess.

That’s what we are stuck with now.

As for BusConnects, well I’m waiting for the political realities to develop once the proposals are announced (mass CPO activity along QBCs (much more than the Metro) and the implications of much more changing) in what could be the run up to a general election - sadly I remain to be convinced that this will happen as the NTA may propose.

cgcsb · 06-04-2018 12:19pm

I can see the plan proposing a lot of CPO given the size of the budget and the Navan road comes to mind and Harold's cross road, both pretty affluent

LXFlyer · 06-04-2018 12:38pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I can see the plan proposing a lot of CPO given the size of the budget and the Navan road comes to mind and Harold's cross road, both pretty affluent

I don’t think that penny has even remotely dropped with the populace at large yet.

cgcsb · 06-04-2018 1:37pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

I don’t think that penny has even remotely dropped with the populace at large yet.

We'll see. The temporary solutions imposed to accommodate the CG plaza will add urgency to this project, the general pop will start asking questions. I'd be hopeful of at least a provisional plan laid out by the end of the year.

tom1ie · 06-04-2018 2:39pm

Have we seen a drawing/ picture of the CBC (core bus corridor) yet?
How do they plan on stopping traffic other than busses using the cbc's?
Will there be a smart phone ticketing system for tag on tag off, which will lower dwell times?
Will this be rolled out with anpr cameras (automatic number plate recognition, I think this is what its called!) to prosecute people using cbc's.
It'll be interesting to see where they plan on getting space for this in the cc.
I don't see any mention of orbital brt routes,- only radial?

LXFlyer · 06-04-2018 2:43pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Have we seen a drawing/ picture of the CBC (core bus corridor) yet?
How do they plan on stopping traffic other than busses using the cbc's?
Will there be a smart phone ticketing system for tag on tag off, which will lower dwell times?
Will this be rolled out with anpr cameras (automatic number plate recognition, I think this is what its called!) to prosecute people using cbc's.
It'll be interesting to see where they plan on getting space for this in the cc.
I don't see any mention of orbital brt routes,- only radial?

Wait and see - read post #2 above.

There will be orbital corridors along which routes will interact - see BusConnects.ie

As for any detail - NONE yet.

LXFlyer · 06-04-2018 2:48pm

cgcsb wrote: »

We'll see. The temporary solutions imposed to accommodate the CG plaza will add urgency to this project, the general pop will start asking questions. I'd be hopeful of at least a provisional plan laid out by the end of the year.

A plan will be published in April (infrastructure) and June (bus network).

When it will be delivered and in what form is anyone’s guess.

I don’t expect to see any material changes in 2018 - but with a likely general election in 2019 there will be a lot of politics in any plan that requires people to lose their gardens en masse and people losing direct connections.

For the record I support improving the corridors, but having seen so many plans watered down over the years I am not holding my breath that local politics won’t derail the plans somewhat.

cgcsb · 07-04-2018 12:41pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

A plan will be published in April (infrastructure) and June (bus network).

When it will be delivered and in what form is anyone’s guess.

I don’t expect to see any material changes in 2018 - but with a likely general election in 2019 there will be a lot of politics in any plan that requires people to lose their gardens en masse and people losing direct connections.

For the record I support improving the corridors, but having seen so many plans watered down over the years I am not holding my breath that local politics won’t derail the plans somewhat.

I thought the tender to design the infrastructure is only out this month?

Yes I don't see bus connects really delivering much of anything in terms of infrastructure beyond some city centre priority measures and integrated ticketing. Perhaps some camera enforcement but again politics might stop the notion of fining people for using their God given right to drive/park in whatever bus lane they like

LXFlyer · 08-04-2018 4:49pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I thought the tender to design the infrastructure is only out this month?

Yes I don't see bus connects really delivering much of anything in terms of infrastructure beyond some city centre priority measures and integrated ticketing. Perhaps some camera enforcement but again politics might stop the notion of fining people for using their God given right to drive/park in whatever bus lane they like

I am pretty sure that Anne Graham has stated that the infrastructure side of the Bus Connects plan will go to public consultation this month, while the bus network would go to consultation in June.

roadmaster · 17-04-2018 11:50am

Another step towards Busconnects

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=127633&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

bk · 17-04-2018 1:33pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Another step towards Busconnects

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=127633&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

As part of its Bus Connects project, the National Transport Authority (NTA) plans to introduce standard branded bus stops throughout Ireland. There are approximately 12,000 bus stops throughout the State. The new bus stops will serve all operators, both public and private, and will replace the multiple stops at different locations that are a feature of the existing system. The new bus stop poles will have integrated information carousels incorporating stop specific printed route maps and timetables. The bus stop pole flag and carousel, and hence pole height, will vary depending on the operators using the stop. Real Time Passenger Information (RTPI) poles and display units will be installed at some stops. The NTA is seeking to enter into five multi-party framework agreements for the design and installation of bus stop poles, including all associated works; and five contracts for bus stop pole maintenance.

Very welcome stuff, it will be great to see all the bus stops on Westmorland Street replaced by just one or two.

cgcsb · 19-04-2018 11:27am

While integrated bus stops are to be welcomed, it's a minor consideration. I'd much rather they prioritized bus priority measures.

CatInABox · 19-04-2018 11:43am

cgcsb wrote: »

While integrated bus stops are to be welcomed, it's a minor consideration. I'd much rather they prioritized bus priority measures.

They've got two billion to spend on this, so I'd say integrated bus stops are going to be a very very minor part of the whole scheme.

bk · 19-04-2018 11:44am

cgcsb wrote: »

While integrated bus stops are to be welcomed, it's a minor consideration. I'd much rather they prioritized bus priority measures.

No reason the two can't happen in parallel, along with other initiatives.

They have already rolled out lovely new generic NTA bus stops and shelters in Cork. I assume they will just be bringing the same to Dublin and the other cities.

Lots of nice pics here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/translatorps/galleries/72157687262736931/?rb=1

LXFlyer · 19-04-2018 11:49am

cgcsb wrote: »

While integrated bus stops are to be welcomed, it's a minor consideration. I'd much rather they prioritized bus priority measures.

It’s one part of the project.

I don’t see any issue with it while addressing all of the other areas as well.

Pixel Eater · 19-04-2018 2:00pm

bk wrote: »

No reason the two can't happen in parallel, along with other initiatives.

They have already rolled out lovely new generic NTA bus stops and shelters in Cork. I assume they will just be bringing the same to Dublin and the other cities.

Lots of nice pics here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/translatorps/galleries/72157687262736931/?rb=1

While I agree it's better to have fewer signage and integrate the information, from a design point of view those Cork signs look very generic. I had a look at the proposal for the new bus branding for Dublin (during the initial Bus Connect consultation) and that was very lacklustre too.

And on the second pic: why is the Bus Eireann one still there? Sort of defeats the purpose.

bk · 19-04-2018 2:29pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

While I agree it's better to have fewer signage and integrate the information, from a design point of view those Cork signs look very generic. I had a look at the proposal for the new bus branding for Dublin (during the initial Bus Connect consultation) and that was very lacklustre too.

And on the second pic: why is the Bus Eireann one still there? Sort of defeats the purpose.

It is generic, but I really like the design, clean, modern and informative. Vastly superior to the old sign it was replacing IMO.

You have to remember, some of these signs will have multiple operators on them. So the sign can't have the design of any particular operator on it.

I think it was somebody else's job to remove the old pole, versus put up the new one. Great photo catch though, it shows how much better the new ones look. The old bus stops down in Cork were in a really bad state and desperately needed replacing.

In fairness to DB, they maintain their stops and shelters much better.

BTW here is the new bus stop shelters down in Cork. They are very nice, I particular like how the RTPI screen is integrated into the stop. Much better then some dumb ass stops in Dublin where you can't see the RTPI screen from under the shelter!!

Note usually the back part is all glass.

Rasputin87 · 19-04-2018 2:36pm

bk wrote: »

BTW here is the new bus stop shelters down in Cork. They are very nice, I particular like how the RTPI screen is integrated into the stop. Much better then some dumb ass stops in Dublin where you can't see the RTPI screen from under the shelter!!

Note usually the back part is all glass.

Why is the design/branding (for lack of better words) different on this picture versus the earlier pictures posted? Red on this, light blue on the earlier ones.

bk · 19-04-2018 2:48pm

Rasputin87 wrote: »

Why is the design/branding (for lack of better words) different on this picture versus the earlier pictures posted? Red on this, light blue on the earlier ones.

I think the bus shelters went up quiet a bit before the new stop poles and signs. The red BE sign is on a pole the same as the new ones. I assume it can easily be popped off and the new generic stop sign popped on. Actually it might already have been done since that picture was taken, I'll check next time I'm down in Cork.

Pixel Eater · 19-04-2018 3:04pm

bk wrote: »

It is generic, but I really like the design, clean, modern and informative. Vastly superior to the old sign it was replacing IMO.

You have to remember, some of these signs will have multiple operators on them. So the sign can't have the design of any particular operator on it.

I think it was somebody else's job to remove the old pole, versus put up the new one. Great photo catch though, it shows how much better the new ones look. The old bus stops down in Cork were in a really bad state and desperately needed replacing.

In fairness to DB, they maintain their stops and shelters much better.

BTW here is the new bus stop shelters down in Cork. They are very nice, I particular like how the RTPI screen is integrated into the stop. Much better then some dumb ass stops in Dublin where you can't see the RTPI screen from under the shelter!!

Note usually the back part is all glass.

I disagree with you: The Bus Eireann logo is actually quite good and distinctive with the Irish red setter icon and nice typography.

I hear ya that they couldn't keep using that as other operators will have their info on it as well but the new one just looks like clip art to me. It would've been better to have devised a nice, original icon to denote a citywide transport node/stop. Dublin Bus have a nice icon and something similar would world well. Also think of the distinctive Transport for London roundel.

bk · 19-04-2018 6:55pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I disagree with you: The Bus Eireann logo is actually quite good and distinctive with the Irish red setter icon and nice typography.

I hear ya that they couldn't keep using that as other operators will have their info on it as well but the new one just looks like clip art to me. It would've been better to have devised a nice, original icon to denote a citywide transport node/stop. Dublin Bus have a nice icon and something similar would world well. Also think of the distinctive Transport for London roundel.

The problem with the BE logo is that it means nothing to a foreign tourist. Actually the same with the TfL roundel, though that has been around for so long it is unlikely to go anywhere. Even the word "Bus" may mean nothing to an Asian or someone from another no-latin based language.

Which is why they have the "bus" symbol at the top of the bus sign. To help visitors. This isn't unusual, bus stops all over the world are changing to this design.

And then there is the point that the NTA probably want to de-emphasise the various brands. After all while the route might be operated by BE today, they might lose the route contract and it might be operated by Go-Ahead tomorrow like is happening on the Kildare routes.

The design of the bus poles and shelters is a very neutral one. The only branding is the sign itself and that can easily be popped off and replaced without replacing the entire bus stop and pole.

dublinman1990 · 19-04-2018 8:01pm

The timetable information in that photo can also be replaced with a generic information board of timetables & routes from any operator in the state. It does currently look very untidy with different pieces of paper showing information on the routes etc. With timetable information being improved all over Ireland under BusConnects; it will give it a nice tidying up when it's being implemented on every bus stop across the state.

Zebra3 · 19-04-2018 10:27pm

bk wrote: »

The problem with the BE logo is that it means nothing to a foreign tourist. Actually the same with the TfL roundel, though that has been around for so long it is unlikely to go anywhere. Even the word "Bus" may mean nothing to an Asian or someone from another no-latin based language

I would guess that anyone who has travelled that far to Ireland would recognise the word “bus”.

Wouldn’t be an issue.

bk · 20-04-2018 12:04am

Zebra3 wrote: »

I would guess that anyone who has travelled that far to Ireland would recognise the word “bus”.

Wouldn’t be an issue.

You would be very surprised so, what with lots of Chinese visitors, etc. Completely different alphabet can make it difficult for them, just like it would be for us over there. Do you know the Chinese word for "bus"?

Carawaystick · 20-04-2018 12:54am

Why care more about visitors and not about the people who use services regularily?

Zebra3 · 20-04-2018 1:15am

bk wrote: »

You would be very surprised so, what with lots of Chinese visitors, etc. Completely different alphabet can make it difficult for them, just like it would be for us over there. Do you know the Chinese word for "bus"?

No, I don’t. But when I went to China, or anywhere else that’s uses another alphabet, signs are usually bilingual, the local language and usually English, sometimes French.

Asians coming to Ireland, especially tourists, tend to come from wealthier backgrounds and will either be fluent in English or have a reasonable understanding of it.

But the vast majority will at least know the basic essentials or will be with somebody who does.

marno21 · 20-04-2018 3:21am

I don't think it's wise to base signage of Dublin's bus network around people who don't understand the word "bus".

I don't see any other country following such a policy. Given the mess we are in to begin with I don't see how we can benefit from such a policy.

murphaph · 20-04-2018 9:09am

Pictograms are always preferable if an obvious one is available. Sometimes you can't convey the message in a pictogram but this is pretty easy.

Sam Russell · 20-04-2018 9:15am

I think it looks good - simple, clear, nice colour, neutral, large enough without being too big. What is not to like?

Dardania · 20-04-2018 9:28am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think it looks good - simple, clear, nice colour, neutral, large enough without being too big. What is not to like?

The loss of national identity?

Amirani · 20-04-2018 9:40am

Dardania wrote: »

The loss of national identity?

Hyperbole much? Bus stops are not part of our national identity.

Dardania · 20-04-2018 9:52am

Amirani wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

The loss of national identity?

Hyperbole much? Bus stops are not part of our national identity.

Oh, I agree, but it could be a valid concern for some people. Some of the posters above seemed to indicate that the Bus Eireann should be maintained, as should the logo etc. despite making it more applicable for a global audience. Possibly their concern is about loss of national identity...

murphaph · 20-04-2018 10:59am

Honestly a nationwide standard pictogram/format for stops is a great idea. Germany has the "H" (Haltestelle) sign which has been standard for bus & tram (and in some cases like here in Berlin Ferry!) stops since the inter-war period: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haltestelle

Hungary uses a standard pictogram, it's pretty communist looking but it immediately identifies a bus or tram stop.

The Irish proposal goes further as it seems to standardise the entire design of the signage, including timetable information, which is surely to be welcomed. If it's implemented Irish bus stop signage would be to my mind better than anything I've seen anywhere.

bk · 20-04-2018 11:04am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why care more about visitors and not about the people who use services regularily?

If it is easy and clear for visitors to use, then it is easy and clear for locals too.

BTW most people in Cork are delighted with the new bus stop shelters and bus stop signs. They are a VAST improvement over the old shelters and signs that were in a really bad state, falling apart as you can see in the above pics and also the new signs are overall more informative.

The old BE signs and shelters were in such a bad state that they made Cork look bad and reflected badly on the company too.

I've heard many people down in Cork comment on the new signs and pretty much always very positively.

I'd also point out, BE doesn't have a good reputation at all down in Cork, so it being gone would get you a big cheer from the people of Cork. As a brand it really doesn't have much worth.

dfx- · 20-04-2018 11:11am

The shade of blue in that 'new' bus stop is dreadful and even worse, it's plastered all over their livery too.

I don't see when given a blank canvas, you come up with colours and designs like that and why transport companies and 'independent' regulators go for such awful light colours. Maybe it looks well on a powerpoint screen.

It doesn't inspire confidence in their decision making.

Dardania · 20-04-2018 11:12am

I can see them qualifying inclusion on the bus stop signage with the operators supporting leap as payment. That would really make it easy for people, particularly tourists - imagine if landing in a country you only need a single card, for the entire country, for all modes of public transport? Would be amazing...I have never experienced that anywhere before.

LXFlyer · 20-04-2018 11:28am

dfx- wrote: »

The shade of blue in that 'new' bus stop is dreadful and even worse, it's plastered all over their livery too.

I don't see when given a blank canvas, you come up with colours and designs like that and why transport companies and 'independent' regulators go for such awful light colours. Maybe it looks well on a powerpoint screen.

It doesn't inspire confidence in their decision making.

Blue is the colour assigned by the NTA to bus services in their colour palette.

Look at the Journey Planner / RealTime app and you’ll see the rest of the colours.

bk · 20-04-2018 11:40am

dfx- wrote: »

The shade of blue in that 'new' bus stop is dreadful and even worse, it's plastered all over their livery too.

I will say, that the stops and colour looks fantastic in person. Very smart, clean and modern looking in person. Pics don't do it justice.

I haven't seen the colours on the new buses in person yet, so don't know about that. I agree the original design that they trialled looked terrible, but the new colour scheme that I've seen on the buses on flickr looks pretty decent. I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.

bk · 20-04-2018 12:17pm

Dardania wrote: »

I can see them qualifying inclusion on the bus stop signage with the operators supporting leap as payment. That would really make it easy for people, particularly tourists - imagine if landing in a country you only need a single card, for the entire country, for all modes of public transport? Would be amazing...I have never experienced that anywhere before.

Leap is already accepted in the the vast majority of places where it makes sense.

Dublin Bus, all BE city services, BE Dublin Commuter services, Swords Express and a bunch of other private operators, Luas, Dart, Dublin and Cork Commuter rail services.

For the most part the only ones not using it are the long distance coach and rail services. But Leap doesn't really make much sense for them, imagine trying to use Leap to pay for a €60 Irish Rail ticket! Even on the intercity coaches it would be a little silly, you'd be just throwing €20 on your leap card in a shop, to turn around and then pay for the ticket on the Coach! Anyway these types of services tend to be more booked online today.

Sam Russell · 20-04-2018 12:18pm

Dardania wrote: »

The loss of national identity?

How can you build national identity into a pole in the ground with a panel at the top that is to indicate it is a bus stop carrying a bit of information to allow people to look it up on the interweb?

Colour - well maybe, but emerald green has been done to death, and GAA county colours might cause local difficulties. They cannot win that one.

Design - well, the CIE flying snail or Celtic patterns, torcs and pre-Christian symbolism maybe, but I think a nice clean modern design is the way to go.

I think they have come up with a pleasant design that appears to match its brief. It is certainly modern, and might be timeless, if a bit bland.

Dardania · 20-04-2018 12:49pm

bk wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

I can see them qualifying inclusion on the bus stop signage with the operators supporting leap as payment. That would really make it easy for people, particularly tourists - imagine if landing in a country you only need a single card, for the entire country, for all modes of public transport? Would be amazing...I have never experienced that anywhere before.

Leap is already accepted in the the vast majority of places where it makes sense.

Dublin Bus, all BE city services, BE Dublin Commuter services, Swords Express and a bunch of other private operators, Luas, Dart, Dublin and Cork Commuter rail services.

For the most part the only ones not using it are the long distance coach and rail services. But Leap doesn't really make much sense for them, imagine trying to use Leap to pay for a €60 Irish Rail ticket! Even on the intercity coaches it would be a little silly, you'd be just throwing €20 on your leap card in a shop, to turn around and then pay for the ticket on the Coach! Anyway these types of services tend to be more booked online today.

honestly, would make sense for me sometimes - i have auto bank topup on my leap.

I wonder if a future iteration of leap will let you put your bought-online tickets onto it....

Sam Russell wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

The loss of national identity?

How can you build national identity into a pole in the ground with a panel at the top that is to indicate it is a bus stop carrying a bit of information to allow people to look it up on the interweb?

Colour - well maybe, but emerald green has been done to death, and GAA county colours might cause local difficulties. They cannot win that one.

Design - well, the CIE flying snail or Celtic patterns, torcs and pre-Christian symbolism maybe, but I think a nice clean modern design is the way to go.

I think they have come up with a pleasant design that appears to match its brief. It is certainly modern, and might be timeless, if a bit bland.

I'm not saying one can, I'm saying that some other posters might be concerned about loss of national identity by removing the Bus Eireann signage.
Bland is good - my only concern is will that blue fade in UV light to look manky...

bk · 20-04-2018 1:59pm

Dardania wrote: »

honestly, would make sense for me sometimes - i have auto bank topup on my leap.

I wonder if a future iteration of leap will let you put your bought-online tickets onto it....

Well you can already load various tickets on Leap cards using an android phone with NFC or at a leap ticket machine (e.g. Luas/Irish Rail TVMs).

The next big step IMO is fully contactless payments. Basically been able to pay with your contactless debit card or using your phone (Apple/Google Pay).

No need to carry your Leap card around, just use the debit card or phone you already have in your pocket.

Of course, behind the scenes this is all still using the Leap infrastructure, servers, ticket machines, etc. The Leap card is just the tip of the iceberg.

The advantage being that a visiting tourists doesn't have to bother going buying a leap card for just a temporary stay, they can just jump on the bus and use the contactless debit card in their pocket with zero setup.

BTW we will still have Leap cards in this future, for folks with various taxsaver annual tickets.

This has all already happened in London with Oyster and is very popular.

Dardania wrote: »

Bland is good - my only concern is will that blue fade in UV light to look manky...

From what I could tell, the signs are made out of some metal. They look far more robust then the old BE poles they were replacing.

An important point is that these new poles are modular. The pole itself seems to be a high quality metal pole, similar to the RTPI poles, with no branding on them, just a nice shiny metal. The "flag" on the top is just bolted on. This means if the service changes or the sign fades, it is easy to just pop the flag off and replace it without needing to dig up the entire pole like you might need to do with the old BE ones.

Same with the schedule holder half way down, you can just slide in and out new schedule/info sheets easily as schedules change.

The design of both the poles and shelters is really nicely thought out IMO. Obviously time will tell, but they look to be of a much higher and more robust quality then the old poles and shelters they replaced and their modular design should mean it is much easier to keep them looking clean and updated with the latest info as services change.

Pixel Eater · 21-04-2018 8:51am

bk wrote: »

The problem with the BE logo is that it means nothing to a foreign tourist. Actually the same with the TfL roundel, though that has been around for so long it is unlikely to go anywhere. Even the word "Bus" may mean nothing to an Asian or someone from another no-latin based language.

Which is why they have the "bus" symbol at the top of the bus sign. To help visitors. This isn't unusual, bus stops all over the world are changing to this design.

And then there is the point that the NTA probably want to de-emphasise the various brands. After all while the route might be operated by BE today, they might lose the route contract and it might be operated by Go-Ahead tomorrow like is happening on the Kildare routes.

The design of the bus poles and shelters is a very neutral one. The only branding is the sign itself and that can easily be popped off and replaced without replacing the entire bus stop and pole.

Yes I know that the NTA are using branding that is not associated with any particular company and I wasn't actually saying that they should keep BE logo.

Dublin Bus use their logo as an icon to denote a stop and it's actually quite good. https://goo.gl/images/BqzfVo
Again I know that an exsiting company's iconography can't be used just pointing out that it more original and colourful than the bland signage that has gone up in Cork.

But your point about the Asian visitors is a complete red herring; most would recognise a symbol to denote a transport stop, besides - as another poster pointed out - it would be ludicrous to base the design around an infinitesimal amount of people.

My point was that the new design is just generic, lacklustre and very bland. I wouldn't go as far as saying it is bad rather just in the Irish sense, it's grand. Perfunctory is probably the best description. They could've come up with branding that would be practical, recognisable (which all good wayfinding design should be) and unconnected to any previous brand but that was original, dynamic and just better.

Take a look at a recent superb redesign of the Budapest Metro for the sort of standard we should be striving for:

https://www.behance.net/gallery/20040227/Budapest-Public-Transport-Logos

Pixel Eater · 21-04-2018 9:10am

Dardania wrote: »

The loss of national identity?

There is actually something in that; countries/cities/regions all have their own imagery, motifs and icons that set them apart and make them original. This can be anything from their flags, police badges, council crests right down to street signage and transport livery. In fact, since transport is such a massive part of city life, making it generic and nondescript is, in a small way, eroding the identity of that place.

Sam Russell wrote: »

How can you build national identity into a pole in the ground with a panel at the top that is to indicate it is a bus stop carrying a bit of information to allow people to look it up on the interweb?

Colour - well maybe, but emerald green has been done to death, and GAA county colours might cause local difficulties. They cannot win that one.

Design - well, the CIE flying snail or Celtic patterns, torcs and pre-Christian symbolism maybe, but I think a nice clean modern design is the way to go.

I think they have come up with a pleasant design that appears to match its brief. It is certainly modern, and might be timeless, if a bit bland.

I think you're taking the term national identity far too literally. It doesn't necessarily have to be a clichéd or overtly Gaelic/Celtic design; rather an original design that is modern yet unique to Cork, Dublin or where ever.

Sam Russell · 21-04-2018 1:08pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

There is actually something in that; countries/cities/regions all have their own imagery, motifs and icons that set them apart and make them original. This can be anything from their flags, police badges, council crests right down to street signage and transport livery. In fact, since transport is such a massive part of city life, making it generic and nondescript is, in a small way, eroding the identity of that place.

I think you're taking the term national identity far too literally. It doesn't necessarily have to be a clichéd or overtly Gaelic/Celtic design; rather an original design that is modern yet unique to Cork, Dublin or where ever.

Street infrastructure in countries needs to be able to identified for its intended purpose, whether it is a post box, bus stop, metro station, litter bin, etc. To try to put 'national identity' into it is perhaps possible, but not essential. What is essential is that the identity of its use is clear to all, both native and visitor.

How many people have been confused by foreign post boxes that look like litter bins?

Identity of function is paramount over any design cues. The bus stops shown have clearly succeeded in identifying their purpose. Bland is not a problem.

Pixel Eater · 21-04-2018 1:19pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Street infrastructure in countries needs to be able to identified for its intended purpose, whether it is a post box, bus stop, metro station, litter bin, etc. To try to put 'national identity' into it is perhaps possible, but not essential. What is essential is that the identity of its use is clear to all, both native and visitor.

How many people have been confused by foreign post boxes that look like litter bins?

Identity of function is paramount over any design cues. The bus stops shown have clearly succeeded in identifying their purpose. Bland is not a problem.

Yes functionality is the main priority but why make something bland when it be interesting and nice-looking?

Sam Russell · 21-04-2018 1:54pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Yes functionality is the main priority but why make something bland when it be interesting and nice-looking?

That is a design choice and is related to taste - which is governed by personal choice. Just look at some of the logos put forward by companies - some are good and some are just awful. If the choice is between bland and awful, most would choose bland.

Dublin - BusConnects

Comments