Covid-19 likely to be man made

16-09-2020 4:17pm

seamus wrote: »

The institute which claims to be backing this paper is a Steve Bannon vehicle. Another fake charity for him to take loads of money from wealthy people while pretending to actually do something and paying no tax.

This specific institute's stated goal is to attack the political structures of China and spread anti-China propaganda in the US.

It has no history of ever getting involved in science, in publishing scientific papers or peer reviewing any others.

The timing actually strikes me as very convenient for setting up the narrative for the upcoming US election debates - China virus, China virus, China Virus

Sir Guy who smiles · 16-09-2020 4:18pm

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tunguska wrote: »

This is eerily similar to Stephen King's The Stand.

combat14 · 16-09-2020 4:55pm

interesting that china have been using their own vaccine since the 22 july

Thierry12 · 16-09-2020 5:10pm

take everything wrote: »

Interesting that the virus is virtually non-existent in China now.

I always felt this was deliberate by China against the West.

Maybe I'm nuts but I'm usually right about things.

Very true, think the same now

It was all propaganda

People are seeing that, finally

Think back to December/January

Just 2 examples

Media was full of pics and video's of people dieing in the street in Wuhan, people being welded into buildings to keep the virus in etc

That dead body was put there for a photo OP

They welded an exit door to direct people to go through the heat scanners at front of building

Where are all the people dieing on the street here?

Case fatality rate is 0.24% for all ages, so much for 2-4% death rate

ICU admission rate is 0.12%, they talked about 10-15% needing ventilators back then

We got played and played well

Well done China, you got me and bad

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-1914-dayepidemiologyreports/COVID-19_14_day_epidemiology_report_20200915_Website.pdf

Thierry12 · 16-09-2020 5:29pm

combat14 wrote: »

interesting that china have been using their own vaccine since the 22 july

Also interesing that China blocked domestic but not international flights out of Wuhan.

That decision was intentional.

Melanchthon · 16-09-2020 5:33pm

seamus wrote: »

The institute which claims to be backing this paper is a Steve Bannon vehicle. Another fake charity for him to take loads of money from wealthy people while pretending to actually do something and paying no tax.

This specific institute's stated goal is to attack the political structures of China and spread anti-China propaganda in the US.

It has no history of ever getting involved in science, in publishing scientific papers or peer reviewing any others.

Any proof of that? After saying the Netflix Cuties promotional stuff being all faked by the alt-right until Netflix came out and apologised themselves for it. It would good to have back up that this is actually the case rather than just automatically blaming the current boogyman.

Anyway haven't read the paper yet but if it's anything like what's been released before under various blogs it won't prove anything but will highlight that articles like the Nature one which says it has not been subject to human alteration are weaker than they should be.

Edit: this article is probably relevant, as I said in the main body of article the idea that the virus is man-made is most definitely not proven.
Saying that it COULDN'T have been subject to human alteration however involves a selective viewing (ignoring either willfully or not) of previous research.
https://medium.com/@yurideigin/lab-made-cov2-genealogy-through-the-lens-of-gain-of-function-research-f96dd7413748

froog · 16-09-2020 5:57pm

i've just read the first 2 pages and there's an awful lot of talk about censorship, vested interests, "widely challenged" etc not befitting a scientific paper. also daft sentences like "the natural origin theory, although widely accepted, lacks substantial support."

having said that, it is quite plausible this thing was created in a lab and let out via accident. specifically the Institute of Virology in.... Wuhan. where they were working on.... bat coronaviruses (as per diplomatic cables from the US 2018). and several "incidents" over the years in relation to SARS.

Hmm_Messiah · 16-09-2020 6:39pm

froog wrote: »

i've just read the first 2 pages and there's an awful lot of talk about censorship, vested interests, "widely challenged" etc not befitting a scientific paper. also daft sentences like "the natural origin theory, although widely accepted, lacks substantial support."

having said that, it is quite plausible this thing was created in a lab and let out via accident. specifically the Institute of Virology in.... Wuhan. where they were working on.... bat coronaviruses (as per diplomatic cables from the US 2018). and several "incidents" over the years in relation to SARS.

To be fair , I have read a fair few Chinese academic publications , and the language is often a little -... clunky... and more colloquial than technical (not excessively so but more than would be accepted in a publication here

But I cannot understand how this is Current Affairs (unless that category is very poorly named) - this article is just nonsense, no other word for it , makes Trump seem like an Einstein in comparison.

And the first post links to Loose Women and the Sun ?

I might be missing out on the fun bit (from social & Fun) so if its all satire, fair enough, otherwise it is just ridiculous stupidity that verges on being dangerous

And those suspicious about how the virus is practically gone in China - (a) China is run by CCP and so the government was able to make decisions and restrictions that a western democracy could never do (b) it was already a 24/7 monitored state - your every movement is recorded and traceable so when there are outbreaks its an immediate trace on contacts (c) to enter any building you need to present your app confirming you are Covid free

and a whole bunch of other measures. Universities re-opened this week … on campus... without masks ( for a country which already had a tendency to wear masks ) this is done because they locked down and crushed the virus.....

I read of the situation in parts of Ireland … and I truly wonder about how serious people take this pandemic . I am sure people who are affected by the pandemic and have seen its impact on their family etc are much less concerned with conspiracy theories, that are in any case pathetic nonsense on any critical review, and more with wishing to see the end of the nightmare it is for many

There are numerous prestigious scientific sources to debunk the Lab made nonsense.. There is also the fact that Xi is determined to retain power for the longest possible time, and this outbreak initially threatened that plan for the first time since his ascension - makes no sense for him to want to unlease a virus, and (just for you conspiracy guys) if it were some one doing same to try remove him, there would have been a massive purge within the ranks which did not occur

Smee_Again · 16-09-2020 6:40pm

Thierry12 wrote: »

Very true, think the same now

It was all propaganda

People are seeing that, finally

Think back to December/January

Just 2 examples

Media was full of pics and video's of people dieing in the street in Wuhan, people being welded into buildings to keep the virus in etc

That dead body was put there for a photo OP

They welded an exit door to direct people to go through the heat scanners at front of building

Where are all the people dieing on the street here?

Case fatality rate is 0.24% for all ages, so much for 2-4% death rate

ICU admission rate is 0.12%, they talked about 10-15% needing ventilators back then

We got played and played well

Well done China, you got me and bad

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-1914-dayepidemiologyreports/COVID-19_14_day_epidemiology_report_20200915_Website.pdf

That’s a 14 day report covering the first 2 weeks of September, it is vastly different now than back in March/April.

Are you being deliberately disingenuous?

JJayoo · 16-09-2020 6:41pm

paw patrol wrote: »

i#ve been saying this since march. the idea it came from a middle ages style animal/food market was beyond fanciful.

the magic market that was just down the road from the level 4 lab that holds all this type of stuff . If you believe the wet-market story you'd believe anything

Maybe a certain low paid lab worker in charge of throwing sample animals in the furnace thought....could make a bit of cash selling these to my cousin who works in the market

Thierry12 · 16-09-2020 6:51pm

Hmm_Messiah wrote: »

There is also the fact that Xi is determined to retain power for the longest possible time, and this outbreak initially threatened that plan for the first time since his ascension - makes no sense for him to want to unlease a virus, and (just for you conspiracy guys) if it were some one doing same to try remove him, there would have been a massive purge within the ranks which did not occur

What if they released something they knew they could control?

They have eradicated the virus in China, destroyed it, kicked it's ass and kept the economy going, almost like they knew what to do.

Destroying the economy of it's rival's the EU, US, Russia, India, Australia etc

They also blocked all domestic flight out of Wuhan, but not international flights out of Wuhan.

They let the whole world get the virus, but not China

Why did they not protect the other countries and stop all flights?

seamus · 16-09-2020 6:56pm

Melanchthon wrote: »

Any proof of that?

I'm not giving them the traffic or the SEO.

Just look up the name of the institute - you'll find it at the top of the paper - and it's all there, including a big picture of Steve Bannon on the homepage. Not to mention all the far-right media articles about them which mention "China virus" or "CCP Virus".

Thierry12 · 16-09-2020 7:01pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

That’s a 14 day report covering the first 2 weeks of September, it is vastly different now than back in March/April.

Are you being deliberately disingenuous?

Disingenuous?

Sure what's different?

Is it a different virus?

Has it mutated? Become less resilent? Have we become more resilent?

No it's the same virus

It was 0.24% CFR virus in March as it is in September

Nothing has changed, use the head.

We missed thousands upon thousands of cases in March/April, thats why we had the death and hospitalisations, that's what was different.

It's the same 0.24% CFR virus, always has been

What are you thinking, it was a killer Ebola virus in March and now it's good ol Influenza in September?

Hmm_Messiah · 16-09-2020 7:03pm

Thierry12 wrote: »

What if they released something they knew they could control?

They have eradicated the virus in China, destroyed it, kicked it's ass and kept the economy going, almost like they knew what to do.

Destroying the economy of it's rival's the EU, US, Russia, India, Australia etc

They also blocked all domestic flight out of Wuhan, but not international flights out of Wuhan.

They let the whole world get the virus, but not China

Why did they not protect the other countries and stop all flights?

I won't engage in this much further as it hurts my brain to consider what are the very weakest of theories but in reply

"kept the economy going" - they did not keep the economy going , much was shut down for months.. and small & large commercial enterprises were hit as badly as here … I've seen scenes replicating Ireland with closed stores, or long queues causing reduced turnover. I also know of elderly people confined in their apartments for months ; and if you are aware of the respect Chinese culture gives to the elderly it would seem less likely they would inflict so much hardship on that tranche of people

"Destroying the economy of it's rival's the EU, US, Russia, India, Australia"

These economies are not destroyed, and while recession elsewhere would of course benefit a thriving China … China is not thriving, its growth has been restricted for some hears. Also it sees India and Russia as ideal commercial partners, it serves no purpose to destroy their economies

"They also blocked all domestic flight out of Wuhan, but not international flights out of Wuhan." from what I have read almost every country has made delayed or poor decisions about flights and freedom of movement" There is a whole complicated hierarchy of how governance works in China

And as I noted in my first post - there are multiple respected scientific authorities who have refuted the virus being man-made

And oh yea the great misdirection of realising a virus in the immediate locality of a lab working on viruses ??? jesus wept

r439z5ifwt8soq · 16-09-2020 7:12pm

The organisation who backed that paper appear to be politically motivated. People taking this paper as proof might be a bit naive.

Smee_Again · 16-09-2020 7:37pm

Thierry12 wrote: »

Disingenuous?

Sure what's different?

Is it a different virus?

Has it mutated? Become less resilent? Have we become more resilent?

No it's the same virus

It was 0.24% CFR virus in March as it is in September

Nothing has changed, use the head.

We missed thousands upon thousands of cases in March/April, thats why we had the death and hospitalisations, that's what was different.

It's the same 0.24% CFR virus, always has been

What are you thinking, it was a killer Ebola virus in March and now it's good ol Influenza in September?

You are being disingenuous, grand so. Carry on.

No point engaging when someone is will fully ignorant.

lucernarian · 16-09-2020 7:42pm

Hmm_Messiah wrote: »

To be fair , I have read a fair few Chinese academic publications , and the language is often a little -... clunky... and more colloquial than technical (not excessively so but more than would be accepted in a publication here

But I cannot understand how this is Current Affairs (unless that category is very poorly named) - this article is just nonsense, no other word for it , makes Trump seem like an Einstein in comparison.

And the first post links to Loose Women and the Sun ?

I might be missing out on the fun bit (from social & Fun) so if its all satire, fair enough, otherwise it is just ridiculous stupidity that verges on being dangerous

And those suspicious about how the virus is practically gone in China - (a) China is run by CCP and so the government was able to make decisions and restrictions that a western democracy could never do (b) it was already a 24/7 monitored state - your every movement is recorded and traceable so when there are outbreaks its an immediate trace on contacts (c) to enter any building you need to present your app confirming you are Covid free

and a whole bunch of other measures. Universities re-opened this week … on campus... without masks ( for a country which already had a tendency to wear masks ) this is done because they locked down and crushed the virus.....

I read of the situation in parts of Ireland … and I truly wonder about how serious people take this pandemic . I am sure people who are affected by the pandemic and have seen its impact on their family etc are much less concerned with conspiracy theories, that are in any case pathetic nonsense on any critical review, and more with wishing to see the end of the nightmare it is for many

There are numerous prestigious scientific sources to debunk the Lab made nonsense.. There is also the fact that Xi is determined to retain power for the longest possible time, and this outbreak initially threatened that plan for the first time since his ascension - makes no sense for him to want to unlease a virus, and (just for you conspiracy guys) if it were some one doing same to try remove him, there would have been a massive purge within the ranks which did not occur

The problem I have is more to do with the accidental lab leak hypothesis, which really will only be discredited when there's a clear ancestry and zoonotic source(s) conclusively identified for the virus. I'd honestly like to see that happen but there is currently poor-quality evidence to explain much of anything. And the circling of wagons that's happened in that research field hasn't helped in the interests of transparency.

It's also not true to suggest this is incapable of western democracies, as New Zealand clearly demonstrates.

SEPT 23 1989 · 16-09-2020 8:11pm

What happened to China just before this thing arrived into Europe and America?

Hmm_Messiah · 16-09-2020 8:13pm

lucernarian wrote: »

The problem I have is more to do with the accidental lab leak hypothesis,

It's also not true to suggest this is incapable of western democracies, as New Zealand clearly demonstrates.

I didn't say western democracy could not crush the virus... I said that CCP were able to take other actions no western country would do.... If a police man or " community body" prevents you entering or leaving a building in China ..you do not argue etc

New Zealand is indeed though a great demonstration of how to respond to the pandemic

I also agree certainty re source etc will not occur for some time....but I was responding to the blatant nonsense in this thread

I have russian and Chinese friends who simply do not believe Chernobyl happened as it did... Or that Tiannenmen Square occurred...some acknowledge there was an event..but with a handful of deaths....so I am open to the possibility that there could be a cover up

Personally what I see here...I think it's as believable it was a fine gael plot...begun decades ago including recruiting Leo as a doctor...so when the pandemic occurred they could show how well they could govern ( compared to the calamity since)

ShineOn7 · 16-09-2020 8:16pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Thread title is misleading, the report doesn't show how the virus was man made.

It postulates how the virus could be made in a lab and details the steps that would be taken to do so.

It's interesting, but not a smoking gun.

Thanks for saving me a click

lucernarian · 16-09-2020 8:31pm

Hmm_Messiah wrote: »

I didn't say western democracy could not crush the virus... I said that CCP were able to take other actions no western country would do.... If a police man or " community body" prevents you entering or leaving a building in China ..you do not argue etc

New Zealand is indeed though a great demonstration of how to respond to the pandemic

I also agree certainty re source etc will not occur for some time....but I was responding to the blatant nonsense in this thread

I have russian and Chinese friends who simply do not believe Chernobyl happened as it did... Or that Tiannenmen Square occurred...some acknowledge there was an event..but with a handful of deaths....so I am open to the possibility that there could be a cover up

Personally what I see here...I think it's as believable it was a fine gael plot...begun decades ago including recruiting Leo as a doctor...so when the pandemic occurred they could show how well they could govern ( compared to the calamity since)

I stand by what I said, the implication in comparing with western democracies in "stamping out" the virus was clear.

And more attention should be paid to some of the biology experts out there, like Yuri Deigin who doesn't have a stake in this either political or research-funding based.

The hubris about FG plots doesn't really add to the discussion any more than the other crazy opinions shared here, even if you're only trying to highlight that some conspiracies are mad.

It needs to be said, again and again, that transparency is deeply lacking regarding the origin of this and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

Richard Hillman · 16-09-2020 8:35pm

I met up with a Chinese friend recently who went home for a few weeks in June. She says that the theory in China is that it was a mess up at the lab and that the government paid the WHO a bomb to cover it up. And that there have been a lot of "Car Crashes" and other untimely deaths of people from the lab.

Beasty · 16-09-2020 8:36pm

Misleading thread title amended to reflect the fact there is no definitive position being taken by the "whistle blower". It may be man made

jackboy · 16-09-2020 8:44pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I met up with a Chinese friend recently who went home for a few weeks in June. She says that the theory in China is that it was a mess up at the lab and that the government paid the WHO a bomb to cover it up. And that there have been a lot of "Car Crashes" and other untimely deaths of people from the lab.

The theory that it was a mess up in the lab is the most likely. As for paying off WHO, we know every single other international organisation is massively corrupt with bribes being taken all over the place. Look at the soccer organisations. It would take a staggering leap of faith to suggest WHO are not corrupt.

DangerScouse · 16-09-2020 8:49pm

Thierry12 wrote: »

What if they released something they knew they could control?

They have eradicated the virus in China, destroyed it, kicked it's ass and kept the economy going, almost like they knew what to do.

Destroying the economy of it's rival's the EU, US, Russia, India, Australia etc

They also blocked all domestic flight out of Wuhan, but not international flights out of Wuhan.

They let the whole world get the virus, but not China

Why did they not protect the other countries and stop all flights?

Bio weapons is a real thing. Some people want to believe it's not.

There is of course no concrete proof this is a bio weapon but nothing would surprise me with the CCP.

thebaz · 16-09-2020 9:31pm

jackboy wrote: »

The theory that it was a mess up in the lab is the most likely. As for paying off WHO, we know every single other international organisation is massively corrupt with bribes being taken all over the place. Look at the soccer organisations. It would take a staggering leap of faith to suggest WHO are not corrupt.

and yet the same WHO are dictating to the whole world how to act at a staggering cost to the majority of ordinary folk , bar Sweden , we are all doing and acting as to whatever WHO say, even though they said ther was nothing to worry about earlier in the year , no need to wear masks and yet to question ther dictate you are labelled a right wing conspirasist nutter , ther will be a massive independent inquiry in a years time to see who actually was telling the truth , that hopefully will be independent and not dirtied with corruption - hopefully by then, the cost on the majority of peoples health , physical and mental will not be too severe.

Thierry12 · 16-09-2020 9:38pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I met up with a Chinese friend recently who went home for a few weeks in June. She says that the theory in China is that it was a mess up at the lab and that the government paid the WHO a bomb to cover it up. And that there have been a lot of "Car Crashes" and other untimely deaths of people from the lab.

Think most people believe that to be the case

An accident or not is the question

Id be amazed if some people think it came from a man eating a bat

r439z5ifwt8soq · 16-09-2020 10:12pm

jackboy wrote: »

As for paying off WHO, we know every single other international organisation is massively corrupt

That's a funny aul statement there

jackboy · 16-09-2020 10:14pm

Frances Green Antenna wrote: »

That's a funny aul statement there

It’s not. It would be staggering to claim otherwise.

r439z5ifwt8soq · 16-09-2020 10:18pm

jackboy wrote: »

It’s not. It would be staggering to claim otherwise.

right so, no point in engaging with the likes of you

jackboy · 16-09-2020 10:20pm

Frances Green Antenna wrote: »

right so, no point in engaging with the likes of you

😂

Guy:Incognito · 16-09-2020 10:26pm

Thierry12 wrote: »

Destroying the economy of it's rival's the EU, US, Russia, India, Australia etc

So their plan for global domination is to destroy the economies of all the places they sell their stuff to? Sounds fool proof.......

Guy:Incognito · 16-09-2020 10:31pm

thebaz wrote: »

we are all doing and acting as to whatever WHO say, .

This is a favourite of the anti everything crowd. "theyre obviously up to no good, sure they changed their advice"

Do people really think that when situations evolve, authorities should just bull headedly stick to their first thoughts on the matter and refuse to budge, even if the know its wrong? Its the most idiotic take imaginable.

Things get dropped in their lap and they react as best they can to the knowledge they have at the time. If millions died while they did nothing and just said "eh, we're waiting to see how this pans out, come back to us next year" , that would be something to attack them over

Darc19 · 16-09-2020 10:35pm

StackSteevens wrote: »

Even the Sun report linked in the OP included the following disclaimer:-

Only those with a basic intellectual level would have read as far as that.

Do any regular readers of "The Scum" ever read past paragraph 1?

In the infamous "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" story, the second last paragraph stated Freddie denied the story and had been a vegetarian for 20 years.

But none of the sun readers had the reading ability to read that far.

thebaz · 16-09-2020 10:43pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

This is a favourite of the anti everything crowd. "theyre obviously up to no good, sure they changed their advice"

Do people really think that when situations evolve, authorities should just bull headedly stick to their first thoughts on the matter and refuse to budge, even if the know its wrong? Its the most idiotic take imaginable.

Things get dropped in their lap and they react as best they can to the knowledge they have at the time. If millions died while they did nothing and just said "eh, we're waiting to see how this pans out, come back to us next year" , that would be something to attack them over

You seam happy with how WHO have handled the pandemic / situation - I'm not - A few months ago they (Dr Ryan) were saying we should go down the Sweden road , the one country that did not adhere to ther advice - For such a large professional organisation I think ther leadership has been far from good , why for instance have they said nothing about the use of Vitamin D - just rigid rigid lockdown , and bad news - at the start of the pandemic we were led believe the death rate was probably over 1% , thankfully this hasn't happened , and we are still being told every day , more and more bad news , today WHO were saying we are only at the begining , never ever any good news or alternative from ther lockdown strategy, without ever highlighting the other mental and physical timebombs going on, that I believe will be far worse than Covid, where the death rate is not as bad (thankfully) as predicted last March/April.

Hmm_Messiah · 16-09-2020 11:12pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I stand by what I said, the implication in comparing with western democracies in "stamping out" the virus was clear.

The hubris about FG plots doesn't really add to the discussion any more than the other crazy opinions shared here, even if you're only trying to highlight that some conspiracies are mad.

It needs to be said, again and again, that transparency is deeply lacking regarding the origin of this and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

You can stand by what you want...what you can't do is determine what someone else was implying....not least when that person explicitly explained his point

So there is zero implication any way close to what you are inferring
.

And do you even know what "hubris" means

The source of the virus is unknown, will remain unknown, and will not be discovered or revealed in a boards.ie forum

Your initial post made sense, this follow up makes non..particularly in telling ME what I was implying AFTER I clarified my intent

I wonder if there was a world war how much time people here would dedicate to how it started rather than to how to end it.

Enjoy yourselves taking an acceptable premise " no one currently knows the origin of this virus" and turning it into a conspiracy if zero benefit in real terms

Hmm_Messiah · 16-09-2020 11:18pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I met up with a Chinese friend recently who went home for a few weeks in June. She says that the theory in China is that it was a mess up at the lab and that the government paid the WHO a bomb to cover it up. And that there have been a lot of "Car Crashes" and other untimely deaths of people from the lab.

I know maybe a couple of hundred people living in different Chinese provinces. I know no one who has ever expressed this belief, even in communications not susceptible to government monitoring.

There are a number of NGO and rights watch organisations reporting from China and I've seen nothing about mysterious car crashes

Maybe you are unaware but the most usual methods to silence dissent is to incarcerate or take to distant rural areas... They tend to have discarded methodologies found in old spy and thriller movies

Hmm_Messiah · 16-09-2020 11:24pm

Thierry12 wrote: »

Think most people believe that to be the case

An accident or not is the question

Id be amazed if some people think it came from a man eating a bat

Most people? As in the majority of people? Are you for real??

Btw bat cross species transfer was just one of many speculations in the first weeks.. it is as likely to be from pangolins.... But may never be known.

But just as a matter of fact (general , not SARS specific) cross species infections do occur from ingestion...and people in certain areas in China do ingest bats

If you only saw the variety of animals available to buy/eat in some so called wet markets

16-09-2020 11:42pm

Thierry12 wrote: »

Also interesing that China blocked domestic but not international flights out of Wuhan.

That decision was intentional.

Fox News “China holds US citizens hostage in virus death trap city”

lucernarian · 16-09-2020 11:53pm

Hmm_Messiah wrote: »

You can stand by what you want...what you can't do is determine what someone else was implying....not least when that person explicitly explained his point

So there is zero implication any way close to what you are inferring
.

And do you even know what "hubris" means

The source of the virus is unknown, will remain unknown, and will not be discovered or revealed in a boards.ie forum

Your initial post made sense, this follow up makes non..particularly in telling ME what I was implying AFTER I clarified my intent

I wonder if there was a world war how much time people here would dedicate to how it started rather than to how to end it.

Enjoy yourselves taking an acceptable premise " no one currently knows the origin of this virus" and turning it into a conspiracy if zero benefit in real terms

I know what hubris means

that closing paragraph came across as cocky dismissiveness more than something to add to a discussion.

As for "And those suspicious about how the virus is practically gone in China - (a) China is run by CCP and so the government was able to make decisions and restrictions that a western democracy could never do"...... You explained there that the virus is "practically gone" in China because of restrictions that a western democracy could never do. On the face of it, including the comparison with western countries is confusing to me if it's not done to contrast the response and outcome. And if that's not the point (i.e. strong measures work irrespective of govt, like in NZ), then why mention that in your point at all? If anything, isolated states are inherently better able to eliminate a contagious disease and THAT I could agree with.

The clarification didn't clear much of anything up for me, perhaps it's late and I'm tired for all I know. I'd add that in China, there's no way to easily establish or trust that community spread has nearly vanished.

As for the origin... It's arguably one of the more pressing questions of our times, especially because we had existing responses and surveillance that should have worked better specifically in China with an already-proven track record. Talking about "enjoying ourselves" doesn't add anything at all either, you're not obligated to reply to something if you feel the discussion is pointless.

lucernarian · 17-09-2020 12:01am

Hmm_Messiah wrote: »

Most people? As in the majority of people? Are you for real??

Btw bat cross species transfer was just one of many speculations in the first weeks.. it is as likely to be from pangolins.... But may never be known.

But just as a matter of fact (general , not SARS specific) cross species infections do occur from ingestion...and people in certain areas in China do ingest bats

If you only saw the variety of animals available to buy/eat in some so called wet markets

Honestly most people are getting on with their life and are trying to see a way forward, in my personal experience of this. Or they don't feel qualified to comment. Of those I know who do have some qualified background, there's a lot of quiet contemplating and wariness both of the lack of evidence for a natural source and the conspiracies swirling around it. Some accept there will be no true way to know, though I believe the longer a clearly natural history is established, the more skeptical the world will be about what happened in China.

The pangolin hypothesis has become increasingly shaky btw as more genomic analyses have come to light in the literature.

Hmm_Messiah · 17-09-2020 2:17am

lucernarian wrote: »

Honestly most people are getting on with their life and are trying to see a way forward, in my personal experience of this. Or they don't feel qualified to comment. Of those I know who do have some qualified background, there's a lot of quiet contemplating and wariness both of the lack of evidence for a natural source and the conspiracies swirling around it. Some accept there will be no true way to know, though I believe the longer a clearly natural history is established, the more skeptical the world will be about what happened in China.

The pangolin hypothesis has become increasingly shaky btw as more genomic analyses have come to light in the literature.

You have taking to replying to replies on some one else's post

"Most people" referred to thierry12 very exaggerated comment that most people thing the virus is man-made. Most people? I'd love to see the source data for that

And again, answering his comment I said "as likely" that does not equate to likely. They mean different things. Saying as a reply it's as likely to be pangolins as bats is not the same as saying it's likely to be bats..I've said multiple times no one can say for now

And as for these qualified people in quiet contemplation and wariness.....what does that add to the the question( and my initial query was how the nonsense in this thread can be considered serious discourse on current affairs). What qualifications ? How many people? How many equally qualified people hold differing views ( or are not in contemplation in an aura of wariness)

Independent qualified scientific authorities have clearly stated there is no reason to believe it's a man made virus (let alone released or escaped from a lab) it can be googled easily..... You can even find it on Baiidu

Any one with a brain knows there will be no concrete resolution regarding the source and initial spread for years if every.. so all the conjecture...and at times the blatant reiteration of conspiracy theories serves no purpose..

The thread came up on a feed and I read some thinking it actually had something to contribute , not the rubbish it immediately descended into

News of people becoming reinfected, of babies born with the virus, of those who seem resistant etc all contribute to the debate... Terribly written "whistleblowing" articles don't.
Not least when they barely amount to a "might be"

And now my battery is at 2% so it's time to wrap this..rest until I have to write a heartfelt apology when this monumental articles are peer reviewed and proven to be correct and true

17-09-2020 2:26am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I met up with a Chinese friend recently who went home for a few weeks in June. She says that the theory in China is that it was a mess up at the lab and that the government paid the WHO a bomb to cover it up. And that there have been a lot of "Car Crashes" and other untimely deaths of people from the lab.

I got a WhatsApp meme saying something similar. It's basically fact at this stage.

bobbyy gee · 17-09-2020 2:35am

Why do bats have so many virus
https://www.knowablemagazine.org/article/health-disease/2020/why-do-bats-have-so-many-viruses

JP Liz V1 · 17-09-2020 2:52am

Trump right so this is a Chinese made virus

mcsean2163 · 17-09-2020 2:58am

She's been published in the Lancet back in march and virology in 2018. I'm really hoping a publisher of note interviews her and not just loose women.

The demeaning way in which Dr Li has been referred to by numerous publications is appalling e.g. the telegraph.

Polar101 · 17-09-2020 4:31am

thebaz wrote: »

You seam happy with how WHO have handled the pandemic / situation - I'm not - A few months ago they (Dr Ryan) were saying we should go down the Sweden road , the one country that did not adhere to ther advice

This keeps getting repeated a lot.

If my memory serves, in April dr. Ryan said the Swedish model might be the one to go with in future pandemics.

And in May he said it's dangerous to think countries who haven't done anything will suddenly reach a herd immunity, because humans aren't herds.

Has he said something different since?
I'm open to correction as to what/when he said those things.

---

Meanwhile, I guess we'll wait for Dr. Yan's proof. I wouldn't have published too many medical studies myself (in fact, the number is very, very low) but if I had something to say, I probably wouldn't go on Loose Women or talk to Steve Bannon.

lucernarian · 17-09-2020 4:51am

mcsean2163 wrote: »

She's been published in the Lancet back in march and virology in 2018. I'm really hoping a publisher of note interviews her and not just loose women.

The demeaning way in which Dr Li has been referred to by numerous publications is appalling e.g. the telegraph.

I feel sorry for Dr Li, but I'd love to understand what the benefit to science was by creating chimeric viruses that posed increased infectious risk in mammals was. That proving an artificial recombination posed a risk to humanity? (well duh) or that it could happen naturally with circulating betacoroniviruses? (Isn't that kind of obvious after influenza's H1N1 example?) There are good reasons why the US NIH imposed a moratorium on these kinds of studies in 2014.

In a contextual sense, gain of function studies will draw skepticism on the wider field of science like a lightning rod when what's being done in a lab then ends up appearing nature in an analogous way. What good does it do go undertake such risky research when it can serve to undermine public faith and funding in pandemic surveillance and prevention?

When you say "loose women", what are you getting at here? Are you comparing the author of the so-called smoking gun paper to a prostitute or am I missing something?!

lucernarian · 17-09-2020 5:20am

Hmm_Messiah wrote: »

Independent qualified scientific authorities have clearly stated there is no reason to believe it's a man made virus (let alone released or escaped from a lab) it can be googled easily..... You can even find it on Baiidu

Any one with a brain knows there will be no concrete resolution regarding the source and initial spread for years if every.. so all the conjecture...and at times the blatant reiteration of conspiracy theories serves no purpose..

I cut out the rest, what I reply to here or what your battery life is, or when you condescend to reply, isn't even slightly relevant. Why in blazes would anyone in their right mind use a censored Chinese search engine to investigate anything of note in an impartial way regarding what goes on in the PRC?

With SARS, we had some good leads established during the same year of the outbreak (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12958366/), which have been confirmed and expanded upon ever since. The real way to actually show a natural origin would be to, well, find close common ancestors circulating in the wild and not offer up some 96% similar bat virus that would mean its closest common ancestor was many decades ago. As has been demonstrated consistently throughout 2020, this is a remarkably stable RNA virus at the genomic level and to accept this as a normal run of the mill event in nature without even a decent phylogenetic tree to back it up is blindingly myopic and presumptuous.

Tokyo · 17-09-2020 10:03am

Mod: Moved to Conspiracy Theories. Please note that their charter now applies.

Covid-19 likely to be man made

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