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Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

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    #5732
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    As a Tipp man I don't buy any of this talk of Waterford becoming the next Offaly.

    People on here were on about Kerry or Carlow beating Waterford. Jaysus lad's a bit of perspective, Kerry are basically a Junior side playing at Seinor and Waterford would beat the living hell out of them in any competitive fixture.


    You're going through a lull for sure but theres still talent there. That Conor Prunty is one the finest young hurlers around at the moment.


    Ye'll be back again.


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    #5733
    debok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 814 ✭✭✭debok


    EYEBALLSOUT wrote: »
    EYEBALLSOUT wrote: »

    Of course he had a hold on them. Allegedly With
    €€€ coming in from the USA & divvying out to players with little or no traceability sure they’d love him forever. Tis no wonder they never talked about his tactical prowess, they were delighted with the wage packet. #payforplay

    What?


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    #5734
    JesusRef
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭JesusRef


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    As a Tipp man I don't buy any of this talk of Waterford becoming the next Offaly.

    People on here were on about Kerry or Carlow beating Waterford. Jaysus lad's a bit of perspective, Kerry are basically a Junior side playing at Seinor and Waterford would beat the living hell out of them in any competitive fixture.


    You're going through a lull for sure but theres still talent there. That Conor Prunty is one the finest young hurlers around at the moment.


    Ye'll be back again.

    Ya Offaly took some very bad beatings at all levels of underage over the last 10 years and would have lost to nearly every non-traditional counties in leinster in that time.

    cant compare Waterford to that yet to be fair


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    #5735
    letsseehere14
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭letsseehere14


    Guys as an outsider that article was incredible. So narcissistic!
    Basically saying nobody understood how great his plan was and how people like Ken McGrath need selfreflection after their comments. Ken McGrath!
    Here's a section:

    "This closeness and familial connection was necessary, in my opinion, to nurture, mould and progress the team and to ensure a unity of purpose, a collective spirit, an intangible that could then defy logic where necessary."

    So he wanted to be best friends/brother/father figure to them. And he doesn't see how that would obviously create a click and favourites (among the players that buy in or play him most) leading to undroppable players regardless of form?!
    Does anyone think Cody thinks of his panel like that.

    I'll be honest I thought McGrath maybe could have got another year due to injuries last year. They had battling performances but after reading that I say it was right he was replaced. That kind if mentality in a team will certainly in my book lead to serious rot over time. Ye would have been ultimately left in a worse place at the end than ye are in now if he stayed on. There would have been players who thought they were more important than the county they represent. And probably only have maybe another AI semi final appearance to show for it.

    Id give Fanning another year. Let him make a mark in the panel and form his own team.


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    #5736
    Gavlor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Gavlor


    letsseehere14 wrote: »
    Guys as an outsider that article was incredible. So narcissistic!
    Basically saying nobody understood how great his plan was and how people like Ken McGrath need selfreflection after their comments. Ken McGrath!
    Here's a section:

    "This closeness and familial connection was necessary, in my opinion, to nurture, mould and progress the team and to ensure a unity of purpose, a collective spirit, an intangible that could then defy logic where necessary."

    So he wanted to be best friends/brother/father figure to them. And he doesn't see how that would obviously create a click and favourites (among the players that buy in or play him most) leading to undroppable players regardless of form?!
    Does anyone think Cody thinks of his panel like that.

    I'll be honest I thought McGrath maybe could have got another year due to injuries last year. They had battling performances but after reading that I say it was right he was replaced. That kind if mentality in a team will certainly in my book lead to serious rot over time. Ye would have been ultimately left in a worse place at the end than ye are in now if he stayed on. There would have been players who thought they were more important than the county they represent. And probably only have maybe another AI semi final appearance to show for it.

    Id give Fanning another year. Let him make a mark in the panel and form his own team.

    You had me until the last sentence!

    Just read that article, it’s actually written like a parody


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    #5737
    mountgomery burns
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭mountgomery burns


    I would disagree, Waterford were far too poor this year to give the manager another year. Cannot stand over an 18pt followed by a 20pt beating, with another double digit defeat for a finish.

    Clare are in a bad place too but I think if SOD had been hurling earlier this year and Conlon was fit, given the supply of ball they had first half we'd probably have been well beaten too. I'd be all for giving a manager a chance, but to be honest in the new format you have multiple chances and if you can't get one performance out of the team but instead take hammerings then for me you've had your chance.

    I don't see what more time is going to do, and it's alarming to me that some of our best hurlers not older than 25 even are being called for the drop as a result. The focus should be on who'll replace him, but I think after the problems they had last year the County Board have no appetite to find a new manager so he'll be there next year unless the players decide to convince them otherwise.


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    #5738
    Waternut
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭Waternut


    Mcgrath has made an awful fool out of himself with that article.


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    #5739
    SW1985
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SW1985


    mickmackmcgoo wrote: »
    The reactions to Mcgraths comments in today's article are fascinating. Ex managers become pundits all the time. I didn't find his article that bad . English literature and grammar etc are a passion of his and his use of them in articles shouldn't be getting people's backs up. As for him not being remembered in Waterford hurling history, at the end of the day he got the team to an all Ireland and nearly won it . Whether we like the tactics or style he done a lot better than the present manager will do with most of the same players . We weren't in a great position after 2018 and his time was up for sure but we are in a worse place after this season

    You've been on here enough to know theres nothing surprising about the reaction on here. Bitterness flows out of these people. The fact that it all blew up in their faces this year seems to have just made them dig in deeper. It's quite sad to be honest.


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    #5740
    SW1985
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SW1985


    Mastermcgrath wrote: »
    Lads some of yere obsession with Derek McGrath is unhealthy. It’s 12 months down the line since he left and now writing articles on the examiner and yere still getting yere knickers in a twist about him. He’s a journalist now and if he wants to fire some shots back at people then that’s what journalists do. I doubt Ken McGrath or Brian Flannery are at home crying themselves to sleep, that’s just how media works, you make comments other people can bite back.

    Personally I’d be much more concerned sbout Ken McGraths views of Waterford, as that’s a guy I respect as a leader and a winner. when he speaks I listen to, and value what he has to say

    People listening to Ken doesnt help when he clearly hasn't a ****ing clue. I say this as someone who idolises the man. He was just a much better player than he is an analyst.


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    #5741
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    SW1985 wrote: »
    People listening to Ken doesnt help when he clearly hasn't a ****ing clue. I say this as someone who idolises the man. He was just a much better player than he is an analyst.

    What was wrong with his analisis??


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    #5742
    Ropaire
    Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Ropaire


    _blaaz wrote: »
    What was wrong with his analisis??

    He doesn't quote enough Shakespeare.

    Best of luck to the camogie team as well. Are they the last team we have still playing this year?


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    #5743
    Obi1mikal
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭Obi1mikal


    SW1985 wrote: »
    People listening to Ken doesnt help when he clearly hasn't a ****ing clue. I say this as someone who idolises the man. He was just a much better player than he is an analyst.

    Wash your mouth out with soap now.. ken has forgotten more about hurling then you will ever know..

    Please enlighten everyone as to what is wrong with his analysis??

    When Waterford were easily beaten off of cork and he said they were leader less, sure he was wrong that day there was leaders all over the field or Waterford have been extremely successful over the last 10 years..


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    #5744
    SW1985
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SW1985


    Ken was an incredible hurler. His analysis is simplistic at best and inaccurate. In 2018 we had a great team held back by tactics. In 2019 we need a root and branch review because the players are no good. Cant have it both ways.


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    #5745
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    SW1985 wrote: »
    Ken was an incredible hurler. His analysis is simplistic at best and inaccurate. In 2018 we had a great team held back by tactics. In 2019 we need a root and branch review because the players are no good. Cant have it both ways.

    We also had players which visibly downed tools.after 20 mins vs limerick in 2019


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    #5746
    EYEBALLSOUT
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭EYEBALLSOUT


    letsseehere14 wrote: »
    Guys as an outsider that article was incredible. So narcissistic!
    Basically saying nobody understood how great his plan was and how people like Ken McGrath need selfreflection after their comments. Ken McGrath!
    Here's a section:

    "This closeness and familial connection was necessary, in my opinion, to nurture, mould and progress the team and to ensure a unity of purpose, a collective spirit, an intangible that could then defy logic where necessary."

    So he wanted to be best friends/brother/father figure to them. And he doesn't see how that would obviously create a click and favourites (among the players that buy in or play him most) leading to undroppable players regardless of form?!
    Does anyone think Cody thinks of his panel like that.

    I'll be honest I thought McGrath maybe could have got another year due to injuries last year. They had battling performances but after reading that I say it was right he was replaced. That kind if mentality in a team will certainly in my book lead to serious rot over time. Ye would have been ultimately left in a worse place at the end than ye are in now if he stayed on. There would have been players who thought they were more important than the county they represent. And probably only have maybe another AI semi final appearance to show for it.

    Id give Fanning another year. Let him make a mark in the panel and form his own team.

    Bang on, the man is losing all sense of reality and def has an overstated sense of his own importance.


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    #5747
    seligehgit
    Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭seligehgit


    Mod Warning

    It is not permitted under any circumstances to attempt to identify a fellow poster.

    Two incidents of same have occurred in recent times.

    Such attempts will dealt with very severely going forward.


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    #5748
    cul beag
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭cul beag


    SW1985 wrote: »
    Ken was an incredible hurler. His analysis is simplistic at best and inaccurate. In 2018 we had a great team held back by tactics. In 2019 we need a root and branch review because the players are no good. Cant have it both ways.

    No matter how you try to defend your hero the bottom line is he showed his true bitter self in that article yesterday. He craves adulation which he will never get in this county. He can’t take criticism and can’t take anyone else’s opinions so the changing of his backroom team was constant until he got the YES men on his side. Don’t forget that he wanted Shan gone and Fintan O Connor to stay only for the players demanding the opposite. So spare me the s#*te about the great Derek. Maybe he’ll be as forthcoming in his next article about the American dollars.................


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    #5749
    EYEBALLSOUT
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭EYEBALLSOUT


    SW1985 wrote: »
    People listening to Ken doesnt help when he clearly hasn't a ****ing clue. I say this as someone who idolises the man. He was just a much better player than he is an analyst.

    Well i have to say that Ken, speaks a lot of common sense. I’m disappointed with that comment.
    How does he ‘clearly haven’t a clue’? What a bland statement, which implies you do. If Ken doesn’t have a clue, neither does Shefflin, Eddie Brennan, Duignan because they are all like minded in their thinking of the way hurling should be played.
    Ken mightn’t be the intellectual that Derek is or maybe he is but doesn’t like showing it off. One thing he knows is hurling. With the exception of Davy, The intellectual managers/Coaches still have no All Ireland’s won. The basics are still the same
    You have to be able to win your own ball
    - Waterford can’t do it. Kudos to Derek for recognizing it and coming up with a plan but long term, as in all close games, it comes back to the basics.


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    #5750
    EYEBALLSOUT
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭EYEBALLSOUT


    blue note wrote: »
    I couldn't blame him for having a cut off those people. It would be one thing if their criticism was fair and just a difference of opinion, but it wasn't. He was being critised fire playing a defensive system when we were returning relatively high tallies. For not having a goal threat when in 2017 we were the only team scoring goals. For holding back our players when he simply wasn't (and looking at them now it would support this). But worse, even he left and we went into a new season with a new manager, still people want to blame anything that goes wrong on him.


    He hasn't really had a cut off the players or current management, just the pundits. Pauric father was a prominent one of those, so if he's happy to dish it out in a newspaper he should be prepared to take it in a paper too.

    A lot of the posting here has been pathetic too. The abuse at the players considering all they've given up for us even this year has been shocking. They've had an awful season and I'm sure they're feeling worse about it than anyone. But I'd say they've given up their social lives and family lives in the pursuit of a good season. We owe them some respect. Same with this management, I might think they've fallen short, but I'm sure they've given everything they had to the cause this year. But after listening to criticism that didn't even make sense for 5 years as manager I can understand Derek's frustration that he still has to listen to it in retirement.

    Returning relatively high tallies-
    Won 2 Munster championship games out of 11 which begs the question what were we conceding?
    I thought the article was in poor taste and written like a man who couldn’t wait to put pen to paper for revenge.
    If you use the media to boost your profile, you have to be prepared for the criticism that comes with that territory!

    All that said, its sad to see Waterford men go at each other in public like this because the root of the problem is still there and while all the sideshows are going on, it’s going unnoticed.
    Lack of Vision or Ambition from Co Board is manifesting itself through results on the field not just at Senior Hurling but also Football, u20 football and minor hurling.


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    #5751
    SW1985
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SW1985


    EYEBALLSOUT wrote: »
    Well i have to say that Ken, speaks a lot of common sense. I’m disappointed with that comment.
    How does he ‘clearly haven’t a clue’? What a bland statement, which implies you do. If Ken doesn’t have a clue, neither does Shefflin, Eddie Brennan, Duignan because they are all like minded in their thinking of the way hurling should be played.
    Ken mightn’t be the intellectual that Derek is or maybe he is but doesn’t like showing it off. One thing he knows is hurling. With the exception of Davy, The intellectual managers/Coaches still have no All Ireland’s won. The basics are still the same
    You have to be able to win your own ball
    - Waterford can’t do it. Kudos to Derek for recognizing it and coming up with a plan but long term, as in all close games, it comes back to the basics.

    Perhaps it was a bit strongly worded when talking about someone as great as Ken. People dont want to question him due to how great a player he was. Using those words does me no favours because people will just close down when they hear any criticism of him and basically not listen to the argument.

    I've always found his analysis of Waterford a bit simplistic and naive to and completely honest. All this courage to play and let them off the leash stuff. The game has changed a lot and he seems to want it to still be the 90s and 00s. If you look at limericks approach for example you can see how tactical it's gone. If you dont understand this stuff and adapt to it you wont be competitive.

    Even Shefflin for all his talk about not using systems changed his tune when managing Ballyhale. Coady has tried pretty much everything except traditional style hurling in the last couple of years now that he doesnt have the best players any more. A lot of this stuff from these pundits was all talk and more about their preferred style to watch than an actual assesment of how effective the tactics were.

    Ken also spent most of the last couple of years claiming Derek was holding back a good group of players. This year without a hint of self awareness he now says we don't have good enough players. It cant be both. We need more factually based arguments. And people need to be a big more discerning than just listening to what these lads say and taking it as gospel because of how good they were as players.


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    #5752
    EYEBALLSOUT
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭EYEBALLSOUT


    SW1985 wrote: »
    Perhaps it was a bit strongly worded when talking about someone as great as Ken. People dont want to question him due to how great a player he was. Using those words does me no favours because people will just close down when they hear any criticism of him and basically not listen to the argument.

    I've always found his analysis of Waterford a bit simplistic and naive to and completely honest. All this courage to play and let them off the leash stuff. The game has changed a lot and he seems to want it to still be the 90s and 00s. If you look at limericks approach for example you can see how tactical it's gone. If you dont understand this stuff and adapt to it you wont be competitive.

    Even Shefflin for all his talk about not using systems changed his tune when managing Ballyhale. Coady has tried pretty much everything except traditional style hurling in the last couple of years now that he doesnt have the best players any more. A lot of this stuff from these pundits was all talk and more about their preferred style to watch than an actual assesment of how effective the tactics were.

    Ken also spent most of the last couple of years claiming Derek was holding back a good group of players. This year without a hint of self awareness he now says we don't have good enough players. It cant be both. We need more factually based arguments. And people need to be a big more discerning than just listening to what these lads say and taking it as gospel because of how good they were as players.

    Remember one thing Ken might have been vocal re Derek not allowing the lads attack more- he wasn’t the only one. Also important to note that these players are all 4yrs older and some are gone ott so he’s probably right that the quality of of players that are there currently are not firing plus we have no natural forwards of the calibre in lk, tipp or Cork.
    Look i get what your saying but unfortunately the lads going at each won’t solve our woes!!
    Btw, you mentioned Shefflin changing his system setup with Ballyhale?? How ?


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    #5753
    SW1985
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭SW1985


    EYEBALLSOUT wrote: »
    Remember one thing Ken might have been vocal re Derek not allowing the lads attack more- he wasn’t the only one. Also important to note that these players are all 4yrs older and some are gone ott so he’s probably right that the quality of of players that are there currently are not firing plus we have no natural forwards of the calibre in lk, tipp or Cork.
    Look i get what your saying but unfortunately the lads going at each won’t solve our woes!!
    Btw, you mentioned Shefflin changing his system setup with Ballyhale?? How ?

    Yes, a lot of people have been saying the same thing. I believe they are incorrect and not reading the modern game properly.

    We're not talking about 4 years ago though. He's been saying it over the last couple of years. We've gained a few good lads this year. I dont think they are a worse group considering the emergence of Prunty, Lyons and Prendergast. They do look unfit and rudderless though.

    TJ Reid did an interview talking about the much more possession based approach now. Shorter passing, shortening the pitch when out of possession etc. Henry plays up the simple traditional hurling man persona and enjoyed taking shots at Waterfords style. But as a manager he was a lot more analytical and pragmatic.


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    #5754
    Ropaire
    Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Ropaire


    Sure pundits usually try to dumb it down to appeal to as large an audience as possible. If your watching the Sunday Game to learn how to coach an inter County team you're at nothing lad.

    In fairness to Ken you can see the pain of it on his face the last few weeks whereas Derek when he's on is usually making himself look great talking about how if he was in charge there'd be load of more defenders.

    As for the modern game, Dereks first year was a joke, year 2 was steadying the ship and making us hard to beat, was arguably on the right track for the players available to him but never pushed up extra forwards or tried to develop it further and got found out. Then he pulled more men back to try and shut out teams, i.e. play with fear when he was found out. Put him back in now, will he match the limericks and tips the way they're after setting up with his system? Cos he only has a plan A. No chance. He had 5 years, had 1 lucky run to a final and nearly pulled it off for which we're all thankful but now he's more of a hindrance than a help with the ****e he's at in the paper.


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    #5755
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,704 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    The amount of times I have heard pundits talk about systems without ever being able to describe one minor detail about these "systems" asside from harping on about sweepers all the time.


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    #5756
    EYEBALLSOUT
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭EYEBALLSOUT


    SW1985 wrote: »
    Yes, a lot of people have been saying the same thing. I believe they are incorrect and not reading the modern game properly.

    We're not talking about 4 years ago though. He's been saying it over the last couple of years. We've gained a few good lads this year. I dont think they are a worse group considering the emergence of Prunty, Lyons and Prendergast. They do look unfit and rudderless though.

    TJ Reid did an interview talking about the much more possession based approach now. Shorter passing, shortening the pitch when out of possession etc. Henry plays up the simple traditional hurling man persona and enjoyed taking shots at Waterfords style. But as a manager he was a lot more analytical and pragmatic.

    Ah i see what you mean but in fairness passing the ball to the man in the better position makes sense as opposed to blasting it down the field! Ballyhale v Ballygunner was interesting though. They pushed up on the Bg backs forcing the ball to be pucked long knowing Bg had no ball winners. Bg left the Ballyhale half backs free from general play and as a result only scored 3pts from play compared to 1-10 from Ballyhale.
    Only ever going to be one winner unfortunately.
    I suppose we def gained a few good lads this yr but unfortunately the Brick (what a servant), Kevin Moran (great player) and Noelie Connors (one if the best) are all on the weign, and then add in Shane Fives, Philip Mahony and Maurice are not far behind as well- thats a lot of players to replace in nearly one go so thats where i think Ken’s point is going.
    Anyway, we’re not going to solve the woes but fair play, you made a couple of great points.
    Deise abú!


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    #5757
    Gary Gurney
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Gary Gurney


    It's tough reading over the last few pages of comments really. All the bad vibes and inner politics in Waterford gaa have really come to the fore over the last couple of weeks in probably in all reality our lowest point in the last 25 years.

    Whilst it should not be that suprising from anyone who is actually clued into the Waterford gaa scene, I do feel McGrath has let himself down badly with the latest article published over the weekend. I won't dwell on it and issue personal abuse but it must be said that in my eyes he just comes across extremely petty and someone with a serious chip on their shoulder. We wished him well when in charge, he didn't get us over the line and when it wasn't always plain sailing for him he should back the current set up instead of harping on about deep bonds he has with players etc etc.

    However, probably my most suprising finding of the reaction of his article is the amount of people praising his English language skills just because he's able to quote leaving cert level English? Mind blowing


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    #5758
    Stacksofwacks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,536 ✭✭✭Stacksofwacks


    What young players should get a look in next year..In terms of forwards Neil Montgomery Abbeyside looks promising as does JP Lucey from Shamrocks. Some lads may not be good enough but you'll never know unless you give them a decent chance. The league next year will be vital for the future of Waterford hurling. There should be at least 5 or 6 rookies in the starting line up every game and even if they dont perform they should be left in the next day and hopefully they will come good. With respect to Brick, Moran and a few others they should be left go regardless if they want to stay on.


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    #5759
    Mastermcgrath
    Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭Mastermcgrath


    any word on Fannings future? It’s a week on now since our season ended and I haven’t heard the county board come out and back him. I know he was given a 2 year term but I imagine after the disastrous performances there will need to be a review of his position and backroom team?


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    #5760
    Stacksofwacks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,536 ✭✭✭Stacksofwacks


    Mastermcgrath wrote: »
    any word on Fannings future? It’s a week on now since our season ended and I haven’t heard the county board come out and back him. I know he was given a 2 year term but I imagine after the disastrous performances there will need to be a review of his position and backroom team?

    He's indicated that he wants to stay on and "knows what needs to be done alrite". So it looks like he's not going to resign. Then the board has a decision to make. If it was any premier league or championship club and he got those kind of results then the trigger would be pulled fast. I dont think he's done enough to get a second year, a few close defeats I could live with as long as there was signs of progress but that was just a disaster!


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    #5761
    Obi1mikal
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭Obi1mikal


    SW1985 wrote: »
    Ken was an incredible hurler. His analysis is simplistic at best and inaccurate. In 2018 we had a great team held back by tactics. In 2019 we need a root and branch review because the players are no good. Cant have it both ways.

    What has ken said that is inaccurate?? When he looked last year he felt that the players were held back by tactics and now he thinks they are not good enough.. remember in both years they still didn't win a championship game.. ken speaks the truth because when Waterford lose it hurts him more then anything..

    You think derek is right no matter what he says but he is is the same person who sat and waited two years to retaliate to something ken said on a day which was a fact that day.

    His article was absolutely outrageous but yet people are blaming ken. If more people had the gaul to speak like ken then something might happen rather then defending a man who delivered the sum total of nothing...


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