Suicide and men.

ted1 wrote: »

I think cancer is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

I've changed a word in your original post. Do you think this is the same? It is because of attitudes like yours that more people don't talk about how they feel, and spiral and spiral until they don't see any option other than suicide.

I've been suicidal, i've tried to kill myself, i've sat here and gone through the options of hanging, walking in front of a train, slashing wrists, etc. Its not something you just decide one day. Its months and months of depression and feeling down. Feeling like no-one cares, like no-one understands, that you can't tell people you feel suicidal because they'll think your "selfish" and tell you to man up.

Depression is a disease, not a choice. And sometimes suicide/attempted suicide is a symptom. However extreme it may seem.

ted1 wrote: »

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

What 'adventures' does Marie Fleming have yet to have?

weldoninhio wrote: »

I've changed a word in your original post.

I do not think it's the coward's way out and I've seen the horrific grip it can have on people.

But I have to say this: depression is not comparable to cancer. Yes, depression is paralysing and can hold you in a vice grip; but there is always support out there that can bring you back from the brink. Reaching out and seeking help in such a situation can be incredibly difficult, I understand that, but it doesn't change the fact that these things are available to someone.

With cancer? A lot of the time reaching out and seeking help will be fruitless. No matter how much you try and how much you want to, you aren't going to get better.

This isn't a cry of "man up." I would never think or say something so cruel to someone who as I said, is suffering from something that can feel paralysing and all consuming. But the fact remains, you can pull yourself back from the brink.

The cancer patient, often, cannot.

ted1 wrote: »

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

Most people kill themselves because they are depressed.

Your post pretty much says "snap out of it".

I despair.

April O Neill wrote: »

Most people kill themselves because they are depressed.

Your post pretty much says "snap out of it".

I despair.

Do they though? I've not read much but depression is only an indicator of of suicide risk.

Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men, far less woman commit suicide (though it is rising), I know there's issues of men not seeking help but the difference in rates is huge.

I am aware that females attempt suicide quite often but to my (uniformed) mind that is quiet different to a successful suicide bid, we only hear from those people that have attempted it and failed, of the huge numbers of young men that kill themselves in Ireland have most of them made previous attempts (genuine question btw)

Secondly if depression/suicidal tendencies is to be considered as an inescapable psychological condition that has taken hold (which would seem to be the view of the majority of people on/reading this thread), doesn't that mean that we have a duty to prevent these suicides occurring.

So if some one wishes to die due to this condition, isn't it the right thing to do to treat them and remove/manage this condition using ANY means necessary with or without the suffers consent.

I know this point is controversial but I see a flaw in completely absolving a person of responsibility for their actions while still judging that they are compos mentis in relation to choice around treatment.

Third point is, suicide clustering is a known issue, does more awareness and acceptance of suicide increase rates, is it possible that by raising awareness we are increasing risk? I raise this point with an awareness of how historic figures are inaccurate (and still are) but I still think that there has been an increase in the rates.

These are just my musings on the issue and I am not advocating wholesale cohercive confinement of the mentally ill or implying any judgement on those suffering from depression or those affected by suicide (which is basically every person in Ireland )

superb choice of username wrote: »

You KNOW the primary flaw in the logic - men don't come forward, and so the figures are in no way accurate, but you still state as a fact that 'way more woman suffer from depression than men'? How does that work?

Even if the actual rate of depression is gender neutral the differences in suicide still indicate a serious difference/

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Fancy providing some recognised studies which match this.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/177/6/486.short

http://www.cdc.gov/mentalhealth/data_stats/depression.htm

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression/MH00035

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00406-002-0381-6

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0447.2003.00204.x/abstract;jsessionid=F2EBDE8E72281DD1A17CB87D82E4BDAF.d04t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

I'm willing to admit I stated the case a bit strongly and there is obvious issues however what I stated would be the standard view, these links are grabbed after a 2 minute search btw though.

here's a link to a study that would argue against what I stated however

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15006279

I honestly think it hits men more than women because we don't tend to talk.

I know quite a few guys who I would reckon have a lot of acquaintances and no friends.
I really think guys in particular need to be encouraged to talk about normal stuff.

A lot of guys do but a lot more have monosyllabic conversations or just discuss factual things like sport.

I'm not suggesting that we all need to turn into hippy dippy new age types who discuss our feelings at all times but there's a lot to be said for asking someone how they are and actually meaning it.

Typical conversation here is like :
grunt "how's it going?"
response : grunt "how's it going?"

is not even a genuine question anymore, it's just a vague greeting.

The other thing is that lads discussing anything a bit deep / having choose friends is starting to be described as "bromance" and people are implying it's a bit "gay". I honestly think that's become a barrier to some guys forming very close friendships. Macho, homophobic nonsense that's coming in largely via US pop culture and media. it needs to be challenged. guys should be able to have a best bud without all that baggage.

Guys always had very very close friends all through history. it's a 19th and 20th century development that got all weird about such relationships. we need to grow up and get over puritanical nonsense from that era. They seemed to want to turn men into some kind of emotionless, grey suit wearing, uncommunicative androids. If you've ever noticed it also tended to mostly apply to the working class and lower middle class who were expected to work in mines or be canon fodder in various wars. the upper class never had any issues with being a bit more flamboyant.

Likewise guys can and do form close friendships with women without it being about sex and I think people have to lay off being weird about that too.

and on the gay/bi/confused thing - that hang up is fading but it needs to fade faster! it's still causing enormous stress for men and women, especially if they are growing up in isolated areas.

Also I think the school system plays a role in it. I'm not sure that educating guys separately from girls does anything for those guys' communication skills. Girls tend to bring a bit more open discussion about lots of things to a situation and is something that I always thought lacked in my school.

I went to both mixed and single gender schools and I found the single gender environment really strange.

I just think we need to look at the way we are bringing guys up and need to at opening up communications channels because something isn't working.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I honestly think it hits men more than women because we don't tend to talk.

I know quite a few guys who I would reckon have a lot of acquaintances and no friends.
I really think guys in particular need to be encouraged to talk about normal stuff.

A lot of guys do but a lot more have monosyllabic conversations or just discuss factual things like sport.

I'm not suggesting that we all need to turn into hippy dippy new age types who discuss our feelings at all times but there's a lot to be said for asking someone how they are and actually meaning it.

Typical conversation here is like :
grunt "how's it going?"
response : grunt "how's it going?"

is not even a genuine question anymore, it's just a vague greeting.

The other thing is that lads discussing anything a bit deep / having choose friends is starting to be described as "bromance" and people are implying it's a bit "gay". I honestly think that's become a barrier to some guys forming very close friendships. Macho, homophobic nonsense that's coming in largely via US pop culture and media. it needs to be challenged. guys should be able to have a best bud without all that baggage.

Guys always had very very close friends all through history. it's a 19th and 20th century development that got all weird about such relationships. we need to grow up and get over puritanical nonsense from that era. They seemed to want to turn men into some kind of emotionless, grey suit wearing, uncommunicative androids. If you've ever noticed it also tended to mostly apply to the working class and lower middle class who were expected to work in mines or be canon fodder in various wars. the upper class never had any issues with being a bit more flamboyant.

Likewise guys can and do form close friendships with women without it being about sex and I think people have to lay off being weird about that too.

and on the gay/bi/confused thing - that hang up is fading but it needs to fade faster! it's still causing enormous stress for men and women, especially if they are growing up in isolated areas.

Also I think the school system plays a role in it. I'm not sure that educating guys separately from girls does anything for those guys' communication skills. Girls tend to bring a bit more open discussion about lots of things to a situation and is something that I always thought lacked in my school.

I went to both mixed and single gender schools and I found the single gender environment really strange.

I just think we need to look at the way we are bringing guys up and need to at opening up communications channels because something isn't working.

All of this starts so so young with the males. Even as early as infancy. The take it on the chin and don't be a wringer attitude or you sound like a girl. To be seen as wimpy or girls gets you judged and even the mothers are part of the problem because they are pressured not to raise a wimp. So all the negative feelings get invalidated or ignored. Read the work of William Pollack. Absolutely fascinating eye opener.

April O Neill wrote: »

Yes, I would say severe depression is the biggest factor in someone taking the decision to end their life.

Ok but is there any strong evidence for this though? Suicide is obviously strongly correlated with depression however thats not the same as it being present in the majority of cases (when I refer to depression referring to long term depression).
Depression is a predictor of suicide risk but look at the numbers of depressive cases vs the suicide rate (USA & UK links sorry)

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/147/2/155.short

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1120556/

This second article in particular should be of interest. Particularly in relation to this view

RoboRat wrote: »

Suicide is the inevitable end to undiagnosed depression in the same way as death is the inevitable end to untreated cancer. Depression is an illness, its not just some fad that people go through. Some people can work their way out of depression, some people can talk about it, some people can take medication but believe me, it is an illness. If you bury your head in the sand and hope that it goes away, it wont.

It is widely assumed that early and accurate identification of depressive episodes will reduce suicides. This follows from a belief that suicide is a common adverse outcome in depressive disorders: a 15% lifetime risk is often cited. However, clinical experience and population based studies challenge this view. Every week 10% of the UK population aged 16-65 report significant depressive symptoms, and one in 10 of these admits to suicidal thinking.
But fewer than two people in a million will kill themselves. A typical primary care group of 100000 expects 10 suicides a year.
The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.
Destroy user interface control1 Depressive disorders are therefore
common, while suicide remains rare.

The estimate of 15% lifetime risk of suicide emerged from a review of 17 studies of depressed patients, mainly in secondary care, all before 1970.A recent meta-analysis revises the figure to 6%,but this may still be biased towards recurrent inpatients at tertiary centres
A study from the United States sharpens the focus, describing 62159 person years' follow up for 35546 insured patients treated for depression.
Risk of suicide declined from 224 per 100000 patient years for inpatients to 64 for outpatients, 43 for those receiving antidepressants in primary care, and 0 for those without drug or secondary treatment. These estimates are much lower and relate to treatment history.

What does this mean for the national service framework strategy? Better quality primary mental health care for all depressed patients can reduce disability and improve functioning, but the result is unlikely to be a visible and cost effective reduction in the rare phenomenon of suicide.

In relation to my point about treatment, it is not that suffers can not be helped, but that we should look at taking more rigorous intervention at those most at risk. I am also not saying depression is not something that should not be tackled for its own sake, but I'm unsure if the link is as strong as what is being argued on this thread.

In relation to the points about segregated education etc being linked to suicide why do we have a rising suicide rate as suicide is destigmatized and integrated education more common (the point about suicides being mis recorded more often in the past is valid however can the rise in figures simply be discounted for that reason?). Perhaps a cultural acceptance of suicide creates increased risk? look at the rates in Japan?

Anyone of the opinion that suicide is selfish and a perm solution to temp problem. I pray that mental illness never hits you , because you would be in for a horrible reality check.

People are trying to help and be positive, that's appreciated, but being blunt, you don't have any idea unless you've gone through it.