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School starting age - going around in circles

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13

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    #62
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭Deeec


    heldel00 wrote: »
    Right that's it. Decision made. My January baby will be starting ECCE in Sept and will do two years. She will 5yrs 8mo staring primary and will be 18yrs 8months starting college.
    (The plug could be pulled on TY in a school in the morning so using that as an argument to send a child to school at a younger age is not a great idea)

    I think you have 100% made the right decision :)


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    #63
    catrionanic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭catrionanic


    heldel00 wrote: »
    Right that's it. Decision made. My January baby will be starting ECCE in Sept and will do two years. She will 5yrs 8mo staring primary and will be 18yrs 8months starting college.
    (The plug could be pulled on TY in a school in the morning so using that as an argument to send a child to school at a younger age is not a great idea)

    I also have a January baby and he will start at 5y8m too.


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    #64
    Minier81
    Registered Users Posts: 623 ✭✭✭Minier81


    heldel00 wrote: »
    Right that's it. Decision made. My January baby will be starting ECCE in Sept and will do two years. She will 5yrs 8mo staring primary and will be 18yrs 8months starting college.
    (The plug could be pulled on TY in a school in the morning so using that as an argument to send a child to school at a younger age is not a great idea)
    I just reached the same conclusion for my imaginary future baby!!
    Really interesting thread with great insights.


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    #65
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Primary SET ( learning support) here . I’ve only met with a few children in my 30+ years teaching whose parents regretted not starting their child at the younger age . Off the top of my head , I could name a significant number whose parents regretted it .
    It’s almost impossible to “ keep a child back” these days and in any case , it’s been proven to be devastating for the individual child .

    I’m thinking of a senior infant I met on the yard one break time . They had lashed out at another child and they themselves were hysterically crying . The child who had been hit turned and said “ X isn’t bold , they are just tired .” And it was spot on ( Unacceptable, obviously, but correct )
    The child was totally overwhelmed by the school day , in a class with 29 others and worn out .

    Any proper play school should be able to meet the individual child’s needs - saying the child would be “ bored” reflects badly on them .

    Yes , some of us started school at 4 etc. but times have changed.


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    #66
    fima
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭fima


    As an early years teacher working specifically with preschool children I find it really strange that the Montessori are recommending sending your child instead of completing two years ECCE. We would always recommend two years for every child and the evidence is out there that the later formal learning starts the better for the child. Out of interest, is the preschool an actual Montessori method setting or do they have a play based/child led approach using Aistear ?


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    #67
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Minier81 wrote: »
    I just reached the same conclusion for my imaginary future baby!!
    Really interesting thread with great insights.

    If you're having future children have them in August. It makes these decisions much easier:pac:


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    #68
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    I was an August baby, 5 starting school, 19 starting college (I did TY), turned 21 the summer I was in the US for my J1.....I did ok.It is not a disaster to be doing the LC at 18. :-)
    But I agree.Plan for babies that are about March onwards in the year, makes your decision easier!!
    I know one Jan baby that started JI in Sept just gone, age 5 and 8 months, because her mum had the bad experience of an older sibling starting too young and struggling...and I know another who will be 5 and 8 months starting this Sept coming also.But his peers in the class will start turning 6 from the February onwards too, so he won't be that much older than them. They will be ok. :-)


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    #69
    Minier81
    Registered Users Posts: 623 ✭✭✭Minier81


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    If you're having future children have them in August. It makes these decisions much easier:pac:

    That's when my first one was born. If only family planning was so straightforward ;-)


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    #70
    heldel00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭heldel00


    I would really love to hear the opinion of secondary school teachers. I might ask over in their forum.


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    #71
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Any secondary teachers I know would say to wait and not send them to primary early because it can be very hard to adjust in first year for those who are younger and less mature, and then the dealing with making and losing friend groups, getting work experience in TY, coping with the socialising getting a bit more adult etc. And the age for college or starting an apprenticeship or work when they've done the leaving.


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    #72
    Millem
    Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    heldel00 wrote: »
    I would really love to hear the opinion of secondary school teachers. I might ask over in their forum.

    I am one. My own opinion is the older the better. Especially when it comes to filling out cao form etc.
    I would go a step further and will be suggesting a plc course in something my kids enjoy after the LC and defer the Uni place if they get offered one. It’s not a race.

    I sent my January son to school at 5 years and 7 months. My other two kids are August.


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    #73
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    If you're having future children have them in August. It makes these decisions much easier:pac:

    But puts them at a huge disadvantage in community games, GAA etc !


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    #74
    heldel00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭heldel00


    Millem wrote: »
    I am one. My own opinion is the older the better. Especially when it comes to filling out cao form etc.
    I would go a step further and will be suggesting a plc course in something my kids enjoy after the LC and defer the Uni place if they get offered one. It’s not a race.

    I sent my January son to school at 5 years and 7 months. My other two kids are August.
    This is all very reassuring. I was bending the ear of a secondary teacher in the playground today and she was of same opinion as you Millem.
    I asked over on the Teaching and Lecturing forum if anyone wants to follow


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    #75
    dr_funkenstein
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭dr_funkenstein


    OP here.

    Firstly I'd just like to thank everyone for all the perspectives and debate on this thread. It's like a microcosm of what we're experiencing :) I had another call with the Montesorri this morning who again expressed strong reservations about keeping our son for another year. They did confirm that he could potentially stay another year if we still feel the same in June. If he stays, their main concern is what his learning plan would be as he is already pre-reading and doing addition. Honestly, it's his maturity that we're thinking of right now so haven't really formed any opinion yet on what he could be doing in another year of pre-school. It's not really a resolution per se yet but it's still some progress so I'm OK with that. I do believe that we (us & Montesorri) are trying to do what we think is best for our son, we're just polar opposites in opinion right now.

    Question for the group, is transition year now something that all kids do?


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    #76
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Apparently not all schools offer it to all students. So some won't be able to get a place.


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    #77
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    But puts them at a huge disadvantage in community games, GAA etc !

    Ah FFS ;)


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    #78
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 13,778 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    Transition Year is about 11-12 years away. In some schools it's mandatory. Some schools have an application process and not all children will be given a place. Who knows what the situation will be by the time your child is that age? Don't start him earlier than you're happy with, with the plan that he can do transition year if he needs to. It might not work out that way.


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    #79
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Big Bag of Chips wrote: »
    Transition Year is about 11-12 years away. In some schools it's mandatory. Some schools have an application process and not all children will be given a place. Who knows what the situation will be by the time your child is that age? Don't start him earlier than you're happy with, with the plan that he can do transition year if he needs to. It might not work out that way.

    The kid mightn't want to do TY. In my year, out of 400+ in third year not enough people wanted to do TY to meet the minimum class size, so there was no TY.


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    #80
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    Dr funkenstein, I would have an absolute fit at that conversation:eek: Are they doing the pre-reading and writing with him?!! Montessori should not have a learning plan. Play, play, play, that's his learning plan.

    My kids pre-school is play based. Everything is lead by the kids. The teachers have a loose curriculum plan, based around the primary school Aistear, but it depends on the kid's interests. For example they spent the last 2 weeks building and decorating a big castle, and then creating costumes for the characters they think might live in a castle. They have to come up with a plan at the start - what they might need, who can do what job, where they can get the materials for it - then how it might be assembled (does it need a toilet? How would that work? Would there be a ballroom?)...and then they decide who would like to be what character, and what their character might need. Lately they have moved on - the school got caterpillars and tadpoles, and they are watching them grow, turn into butterflies and frogs, basically. If they want to read/colour/write, the preschool provide paper, pens, colours, paint in abundance, but there is no teaching them pencil grips or how to form letters correctly or anything, there is no sitting at tables to do worksheets or any of that stuff - that is all the job of the primary school teacher and curriculum, and they will all start from scratch anyway when they walk in the door of the primary school, regardless of what the preschool have done with them.

    Your problem is actually more the preschool in this situation, they don't seem to realise that their responsibility should be more towards encouraging play than reading and writing.If you feel your child is not emotionally ready for JI, then don't send him. If the pre-school have an issue with what to do with him, then maybe suggest that they stop thinking about him reading and writing, and start working with him on his emotional resilience - so letting him play as much as possible. You know your child, and you don't seem comfortable to send him so (to use a much hated quote these days) hold firm, and insist you want to wait.


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    #81
    BonsaiKitten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭BonsaiKitten


    dr_funkenstein wrote: »
    OP here.

    Firstly I'd just like to thank everyone for all the perspectives and debate on this thread. It's like a microcosm of what we're experiencing :) I had another call with the Montesorri this morning who again expressed strong reservations about keeping our son for another year. They did confirm that he could potentially stay another year if we still feel the same in June. If he stays, their main concern is what his learning plan would be as he is already pre-reading and doing addition. Honestly, it's his maturity that we're thinking of right now so haven't really formed any opinion yet on what he could be doing in another year of pre-school. It's not really a resolution per se yet but it's still some progress so I'm OK with that. I do believe that we (us & Montesorri) are trying to do what we think is best for our son, we're just polar opposites in opinion right now.

    Question for the group, is transition year now something that all kids do?

    Addition and pre-reading isn't important for incoming Junior Infants and I'm surprised that a preschool don't know that. Things like emotional maturity, dressing themselves, fine and gross motor skills, toileting etc. Recognising their own name when written down is helpful but not mandatory. Play is the best preparation they can have!

    I'd be seriously doubting that preschool tbh.

    Edit to add: Aistear is a framework for birth - 6. So they should be taking an Aistear led approach.


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    #82
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭Deeec


    shesty wrote: »
    Dr funkenstein, I would have an absolute fit at that conversation:eek: Are they doing the pre-reading and writing with him?!! Montessori should not have a learning plan. Play, play, play, that's his learning plan.

    My kids pre-school is play based. Everything is lead by the kids. The teachers have a loose curriculum plan, based around the primary school Aistear, but it depends on the kid's interests. For example they spent the last 2 weeks building and decorating a big castle, and then creating costumes for the characters they think might live in a castle. They have to come up with a plan at the start - what they might need, who can do what job, where they can get the materials for it - then how it might be assembled (does it need a toilet? How would that work? Would there be a ballroom?)...and then they decide who would like to be what character, and what their character might need. Lately they have moved on - the school got caterpillars and tadpoles, and they are watching them grow, turn into butterflies and frogs, basically. If they want to read/colour/write, the preschool provide paper, pens, colours, paint in abundance, but there is no teaching them pencil grips or how to form letters correctly or anything, there is no sitting at tables to do worksheets or any of that stuff - that is all the job of the primary school teacher and curriculum, and they will all start from scratch anyway when they walk in the door of the primary school, regardless of what the preschool have done with them.

    Your problem is actually more the preschool in this situation, they don't seem to realise that their responsibility should be more towards encouraging play than reading and writing.If you feel your child is not emotionally ready for JI, then don't send him. If the pre-school have an issue with what to do with him, then maybe suggest that they stop thinking about him reading and writing, and start working with him on his emotional resilience - so letting him play as much as possible. You know your child, and you don't seem comfortable to send him so (to use a much hated quote these days) hold firm, and insist you want to wait.

    Absolutely agree I was surprised to read that the OPs child was doing writing and pre reading. They should not be doing this and could very well be teaching the children the wrong way. Pre school is all about play, making friends and learning how to follow the rules. My friends daughters playschool showed the children how to write letters. When the little girl started primary the school used the cursive writing method from the start. The little girl was so confused with this because its not what was taught to her . She is a bright girl but this caused her to fall behind with her writing.


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    #83
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Could you move the child to a new preschool?

    I love the Montessori method (I used to be a Montessori teacher) but there is no way the focus should be on academics at this age, social skills and learning to navigate and cope with group dynamics are far more important.
    I also know some schools suggest a child is ready because they want to move said child out of the service for various reasons......


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    #84
    BonsaiKitten
    Registered Users Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭BonsaiKitten


    That's what I would be thinking lazygal. They're trying to offload the child for whatever reason.


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    #85
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    I"ve a parent who taught infants for years...one of her big bugbears was kids coming in from playschools having been "taught" an incorrect pencil grip.A lot of work had to go into unteaching them what they were taught, and teaching them the correct way to hold a pencil.Early years sector does need better regulation to be fair, as they all seem to operate differently.


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    #86
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    shesty wrote: »
    I"ve a parent who taught infants for years...one of her big bugbears was kids coming in from playschools having been "taught" an incorrect pencil grip.A lot of work had to go into unteaching them what they were taught, and teaching them the correct way to hold a pencil.Early years sector does need better regulation to be fair, as they all seem to operate differently.
    Absolutely. The preschool that is 'play based' doesn't seem to actually do anything beyond letting the children run riot all day. Seems like the Aistear curriculum is an excuse for some services to do SFA with the children during the session.

    A lot of the Montessori materials are specifically designed to encourage correct pencil grip!


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    #87
    fima
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭fima


    lazygal wrote: »
    Absolutely. The preschool that is 'play based' doesn't seem to actually do anything beyond letting the children run riot all day. Seems like the Aistear curriculum is an excuse for some services to do SFA with the children during the session.

    A lot of the Montessori materials are specifically designed to encourage correct pencil grip!

    That is nonsense. I can’t speak for all services but in my experience children are absolutely not allowed to ‘run riot’ . The fact is that children learn best through play, that is how they best develop emotionally and socially and how they develop their intrinsic motivation to learn. I personally would not send my child to a Montessori method school in a million years, they have years of formal learning ahead of them, what is the benefit to making a preschool age child sit and practice letters and numbers if they can’t properly interact with other children, problem solve and self regulate ? Preschool settings can be loud and may seem chaotic but there is always a timetable and in a good preschool there will be a lot of learning going on that will not be evident to the untrained eye.

    Regarding pencil grip, children absolutely need to develop the ability to grip a pencil correctly but the best way to do this is providing lots of different age appropriate playful activities that strengthen their hands and muscle memory.


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    #88
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    fima wrote: »
    That is nonsense. I can’t speak for all services but in my experience children are absolutely not allowed to ‘run riot’ . The fact is that children learn best through play, that is how they best develop emotionally and socially and how they develop their intrinsic motivation to learn. I personally would not send my child to a Montessori method school in a million years, they have years of formal learning ahead of them, what is the benefit to making a preschool age child sit and practice letters and numbers if they can’t properly interact with other children, problem solve and self regulate ? Preschool settings can be loud and may seem chaotic but there is always a timetable and in a good preschool there will be a lot of learning going on that will not be evident to the untrained eye.

    Regarding pencil grip, children absolutely need to develop the ability to grip a pencil correctly but the best way to do this is providing lots of different age appropriate playful activities that strengthen their hands and muscle memory.
    Wind your neck in. I said this about one service.

    Montessori method is not all about making children sit and learn. Have a read of the method before having a little rant.


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    #89
    fima
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭fima


    lazygal wrote: »
    Wind your neck in. I said this about one service.

    Montessori method is not all about making children sit and learn. Have a read of the method before having a little rant.

    You didn’t specify you were taking about one service , you said some services. I’ve studied the method , it was developed for street children known as ‘idiots’ to help them develop life skills their lifestyle didn’t afford them.


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    #90
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    fima wrote: »
    You didn’t specify you were taking about one service , you said some services. I’ve studied the method , it was developed for street children known as ‘idiots’ to help them develop life skills their lifestyle didn’t afford them.
    Yes and we used to legislate for people with disabilities using the Lunacy Act, what's your point?


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    #91
    fima
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭fima


    lazygal wrote: »
    Yes and we used to legislate for people with disabilities using the Lunacy Act, what's your point?

    You told me to have a read of it, I told you I read it, studied it and my previous post told you I don’t like it, I prefer a play based and child led approach. Have a nice day.


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