School starting age - going around in circles

Millem

lazygal wrote: »

What's the rush though? Why is 19 and older too late to do the leaving cert? I did sixth year in a private college which had many people repeating the Lc and some were in their 20s.

Me too probably the same school. They had a whole study hall for people who were repeating LC after completing a degree.

Deeec

joe40 wrote: »

If a child starts school at 5 yrs 6 months they will be 19yrs 6 months doing the leaving cert, which in my opinion is far too late. (Assuming they do TY) They will turn 18 and still have another year and a half in secondary school, where education is very structured.
In that instance I think it would be best to skip the TY year which would be a pity for many pupils.

Why would this be a problem?

shesty

Probably because we are comparing it to back when we were doing the leaving, when a lot more is known these days about education in the early years and in general there is a bit of a movement towards starting formal education a bit later in quite a few countries. Can't help comparing but at the same time, it's not the same these days.

JPup

Most kids are 5 starting these days. So a lot will be 19 doing the leaving. Not a big deal I think.

In the old days kids would be sent in on the 4th birthday and if they stayed for the leaving they might only be 16. But that’s hardly ideal, is it?!

James Bond Junior

I'll give my 4 cents on this, I've two points of view, as a child and as a primary principal.

1st, I was sent to school at 4y 2m, as my Dad, a primary teacher felt I was ready at the time. I was able and managed away but as time went on the gap got harder. I remember in 5th class, it was becoming a struggle academically and I was noticeably behind my classmates, in hindsight even I can see it. My pals were far more mature than me, getting interested in girls and moving towards early teen interests where I was still happy playing with my toy cars and being generally a small boy. I was quite smaller than the other boys, a not inconsequential thing when subjected to the rough and tumble of boys games and play. Some boys love to pick on the smallest boy, especially the babyish immature one. Nothing of note but it was something I did have to deal with.

Fast forward and JB Senior decided I was to repeat 5th class. It was an awful shock to my system but it was the best thing that ever happened me. Classwork suddenly became far easier and I seemed to be at the same level, mentally, as the boys in my new class.

Now fast forward to 2021. I'm primary principal in a school in the Middle East. My students begin at 3 years 2 months but it's not compulsory until 5y 2 months. As as a result when enrollment processes start I always advise for boys to err on the lower class when beginning. It's a fact, girls are easily 6 months ahead of boys at the same age. I don't have a peer reviewed article to back up my acertation, but I do this for a living! I am allocating school places at the moment for Sept starts and when looking at age, if there a situation where a boy is borderline age wise, I'll always advise going to KG1 over KG2.

Finally being 18 at the end of 5th year was a godsend. LC year is a nice year in so far that you're an adult by law and on the cusp of living an adult's life and the freedom that comes with it. Going to the pub or on the town to celebrate end of term, mocks finishing, friends 18ths etc is part of the LC year experience and being of age makes it one less stress. Entering college with that behind you means your less likely to lose the run of yourself with new found freedoms.

You'll never regret starting a year late, but if you start a year early and issues pop up, you'll kick yourself for not waiting.

hots

For a counter argument, I was 16 going to uni as was one of my brothers, both of us have fared fine. There's no blanket rule for everyone.

James Bond Junior

hots wrote: »

For a counter argument, I was 16 going to uni as was one of my brothers, both of us have fared fine. There's no blanket rule for everyone.

True but 16 in Uni couldn't have been easy socially.

hots

James Bond Junior wrote: »

True but 16 in Uni couldn't have been easy socially.

It was grand for me, my peers had been a year older than me for nearly all of my schooling so it was just more of the same. Not being too baby-faced helped a bit for sure and it was a talking point the first time someone realised, that was about the height of it.

Princess Calla

hots wrote: »

For a counter argument, I was 16 going to uni as was one of my brothers, both of us have fared fine. There's no blanket rule for everyone.

I was 16/17 in 5th year and I remember that year being really down.

My school friends were all heading to the pub at weekends , I looked 12 , so no way I'd get in. I remember feeling every Saturday night that my life was sh1te ( I may have been dramatic) .

If that was first year in college I'd probably have dropped out.

heldel00

Right that's it. Decision made. My January baby will be starting ECCE in Sept and will do two years. She will 5yrs 8mo staring primary and will be 18yrs 8months starting college.
(The plug could be pulled on TY in a school in the morning so using that as an argument to send a child to school at a younger age is not a great idea)

Deeec

heldel00 wrote: »

Right that's it. Decision made. My January baby will be starting ECCE in Sept and will do two years. She will 5yrs 8mo staring primary and will be 18yrs 8months starting college.
(The plug could be pulled on TY in a school in the morning so using that as an argument to send a child to school at a younger age is not a great idea)

I think you have 100% made the right decision

catrionanic

heldel00 wrote: »

Right that's it. Decision made. My January baby will be starting ECCE in Sept and will do two years. She will 5yrs 8mo staring primary and will be 18yrs 8months starting college.
(The plug could be pulled on TY in a school in the morning so using that as an argument to send a child to school at a younger age is not a great idea)

I also have a January baby and he will start at 5y8m too.

Minier81

heldel00 wrote: »

Right that's it. Decision made. My January baby will be starting ECCE in Sept and will do two years. She will 5yrs 8mo staring primary and will be 18yrs 8months starting college.
(The plug could be pulled on TY in a school in the morning so using that as an argument to send a child to school at a younger age is not a great idea)

I just reached the same conclusion for my imaginary future baby!!
Really interesting thread with great insights.

byhookorbycrook

Primary SET ( learning support) here . I’ve only met with a few children in my 30+ years teaching whose parents regretted not starting their child at the younger age . Off the top of my head , I could name a significant number whose parents regretted it .
It’s almost impossible to “ keep a child back” these days and in any case , it’s been proven to be devastating for the individual child .

I’m thinking of a senior infant I met on the yard one break time . They had lashed out at another child and they themselves were hysterically crying . The child who had been hit turned and said “ X isn’t bold , they are just tired .” And it was spot on ( Unacceptable, obviously, but correct )
The child was totally overwhelmed by the school day , in a class with 29 others and worn out .

Any proper play school should be able to meet the individual child’s needs - saying the child would be “ bored” reflects badly on them .

Yes , some of us started school at 4 etc. but times have changed.

fima

As an early years teacher working specifically with preschool children I find it really strange that the Montessori are recommending sending your child instead of completing two years ECCE. We would always recommend two years for every child and the evidence is out there that the later formal learning starts the better for the child. Out of interest, is the preschool an actual Montessori method setting or do they have a play based/child led approach using Aistear ?

Pawwed Rig

Minier81 wrote: »

I just reached the same conclusion for my imaginary future baby!!
Really interesting thread with great insights.

If you're having future children have them in August. It makes these decisions much easier:pac:

shesty

I was an August baby, 5 starting school, 19 starting college (I did TY), turned 21 the summer I was in the US for my J1.....I did ok.It is not a disaster to be doing the LC at 18. :-)
But I agree.Plan for babies that are about March onwards in the year, makes your decision easier!!
I know one Jan baby that started JI in Sept just gone, age 5 and 8 months, because her mum had the bad experience of an older sibling starting too young and struggling...and I know another who will be 5 and 8 months starting this Sept coming also.But his peers in the class will start turning 6 from the February onwards too, so he won't be that much older than them. They will be ok. :-)

Minier81

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If you're having future children have them in August. It makes these decisions much easier:pac:

That's when my first one was born. If only family planning was so straightforward ;-)

heldel00

I would really love to hear the opinion of secondary school teachers. I might ask over in their forum.

lazygal

Any secondary teachers I know would say to wait and not send them to primary early because it can be very hard to adjust in first year for those who are younger and less mature, and then the dealing with making and losing friend groups, getting work experience in TY, coping with the socialising getting a bit more adult etc. And the age for college or starting an apprenticeship or work when they've done the leaving.

Millem

heldel00 wrote: »

I would really love to hear the opinion of secondary school teachers. I might ask over in their forum.

I am one. My own opinion is the older the better. Especially when it comes to filling out cao form etc.
I would go a step further and will be suggesting a plc course in something my kids enjoy after the LC and defer the Uni place if they get offered one. It’s not a race.

I sent my January son to school at 5 years and 7 months. My other two kids are August.

byhookorbycrook

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If you're having future children have them in August. It makes these decisions much easier:pac:

But puts them at a huge disadvantage in community games, GAA etc !

heldel00

Millem wrote: »

I am one. My own opinion is the older the better. Especially when it comes to filling out cao form etc.
I would go a step further and will be suggesting a plc course in something my kids enjoy after the LC and defer the Uni place if they get offered one. It’s not a race.

I sent my January son to school at 5 years and 7 months. My other two kids are August.

This is all very reassuring. I was bending the ear of a secondary teacher in the playground today and she was of same opinion as you Millem.
I asked over on the Teaching and Lecturing forum if anyone wants to follow

dr_funkenstein

OP here.

Firstly I'd just like to thank everyone for all the perspectives and debate on this thread. It's like a microcosm of what we're experiencing I had another call with the Montesorri this morning who again expressed strong reservations about keeping our son for another year. They did confirm that he could potentially stay another year if we still feel the same in June. If he stays, their main concern is what his learning plan would be as he is already pre-reading and doing addition. Honestly, it's his maturity that we're thinking of right now so haven't really formed any opinion yet on what he could be doing in another year of pre-school. It's not really a resolution per se yet but it's still some progress so I'm OK with that. I do believe that we (us & Montesorri) are trying to do what we think is best for our son, we're just polar opposites in opinion right now.

Question for the group, is transition year now something that all kids do?

lazygal

Apparently not all schools offer it to all students. So some won't be able to get a place.

Pawwed Rig

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But puts them at a huge disadvantage in community games, GAA etc !

Ah FFS

Big Bag of Chips

Transition Year is about 11-12 years away. In some schools it's mandatory. Some schools have an application process and not all children will be given a place. Who knows what the situation will be by the time your child is that age? Don't start him earlier than you're happy with, with the plan that he can do transition year if he needs to. It might not work out that way.

The J Stands for Jay

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Transition Year is about 11-12 years away. In some schools it's mandatory. Some schools have an application process and not all children will be given a place. Who knows what the situation will be by the time your child is that age? Don't start him earlier than you're happy with, with the plan that he can do transition year if he needs to. It might not work out that way.

The kid mightn't want to do TY. In my year, out of 400+ in third year not enough people wanted to do TY to meet the minimum class size, so there was no TY.

shesty

Dr funkenstein, I would have an absolute fit at that conversation:eek: Are they doing the pre-reading and writing with him?!! Montessori should not have a learning plan. Play, play, play, that's his learning plan.

My kids pre-school is play based. Everything is lead by the kids. The teachers have a loose curriculum plan, based around the primary school Aistear, but it depends on the kid's interests. For example they spent the last 2 weeks building and decorating a big castle, and then creating costumes for the characters they think might live in a castle. They have to come up with a plan at the start - what they might need, who can do what job, where they can get the materials for it - then how it might be assembled (does it need a toilet? How would that work? Would there be a ballroom?)...and then they decide who would like to be what character, and what their character might need. Lately they have moved on - the school got caterpillars and tadpoles, and they are watching them grow, turn into butterflies and frogs, basically. If they want to read/colour/write, the preschool provide paper, pens, colours, paint in abundance, but there is no teaching them pencil grips or how to form letters correctly or anything, there is no sitting at tables to do worksheets or any of that stuff - that is all the job of the primary school teacher and curriculum, and they will all start from scratch anyway when they walk in the door of the primary school, regardless of what the preschool have done with them.

Your problem is actually more the preschool in this situation, they don't seem to realise that their responsibility should be more towards encouraging play than reading and writing.If you feel your child is not emotionally ready for JI, then don't send him. If the pre-school have an issue with what to do with him, then maybe suggest that they stop thinking about him reading and writing, and start working with him on his emotional resilience - so letting him play as much as possible. You know your child, and you don't seem comfortable to send him so (to use a much hated quote these days) hold firm, and insist you want to wait.

BonsaiKitten

dr_funkenstein wrote: »

OP here.

Firstly I'd just like to thank everyone for all the perspectives and debate on this thread. It's like a microcosm of what we're experiencing I had another call with the Montesorri this morning who again expressed strong reservations about keeping our son for another year. They did confirm that he could potentially stay another year if we still feel the same in June. If he stays, their main concern is what his learning plan would be as he is already pre-reading and doing addition. Honestly, it's his maturity that we're thinking of right now so haven't really formed any opinion yet on what he could be doing in another year of pre-school. It's not really a resolution per se yet but it's still some progress so I'm OK with that. I do believe that we (us & Montesorri) are trying to do what we think is best for our son, we're just polar opposites in opinion right now.

Question for the group, is transition year now something that all kids do?

Addition and pre-reading isn't important for incoming Junior Infants and I'm surprised that a preschool don't know that. Things like emotional maturity, dressing themselves, fine and gross motor skills, toileting etc. Recognising their own name when written down is helpful but not mandatory. Play is the best preparation they can have!

I'd be seriously doubting that preschool tbh.

Edit to add: Aistear is a framework for birth - 6. So they should be taking an Aistear led approach.

Deeec

shesty wrote: »

Dr funkenstein, I would have an absolute fit at that conversation:eek: Are they doing the pre-reading and writing with him?!! Montessori should not have a learning plan. Play, play, play, that's his learning plan.

My kids pre-school is play based. Everything is lead by the kids. The teachers have a loose curriculum plan, based around the primary school Aistear, but it depends on the kid's interests. For example they spent the last 2 weeks building and decorating a big castle, and then creating costumes for the characters they think might live in a castle. They have to come up with a plan at the start - what they might need, who can do what job, where they can get the materials for it - then how it might be assembled (does it need a toilet? How would that work? Would there be a ballroom?)...and then they decide who would like to be what character, and what their character might need. Lately they have moved on - the school got caterpillars and tadpoles, and they are watching them grow, turn into butterflies and frogs, basically. If they want to read/colour/write, the preschool provide paper, pens, colours, paint in abundance, but there is no teaching them pencil grips or how to form letters correctly or anything, there is no sitting at tables to do worksheets or any of that stuff - that is all the job of the primary school teacher and curriculum, and they will all start from scratch anyway when they walk in the door of the primary school, regardless of what the preschool have done with them.

Your problem is actually more the preschool in this situation, they don't seem to realise that their responsibility should be more towards encouraging play than reading and writing.If you feel your child is not emotionally ready for JI, then don't send him. If the pre-school have an issue with what to do with him, then maybe suggest that they stop thinking about him reading and writing, and start working with him on his emotional resilience - so letting him play as much as possible. You know your child, and you don't seem comfortable to send him so (to use a much hated quote these days) hold firm, and insist you want to wait.

Absolutely agree I was surprised to read that the OPs child was doing writing and pre reading. They should not be doing this and could very well be teaching the children the wrong way. Pre school is all about play, making friends and learning how to follow the rules. My friends daughters playschool showed the children how to write letters. When the little girl started primary the school used the cursive writing method from the start. The little girl was so confused with this because its not what was taught to her . She is a bright girl but this caused her to fall behind with her writing.

lazygal

Could you move the child to a new preschool?

I love the Montessori method (I used to be a Montessori teacher) but there is no way the focus should be on academics at this age, social skills and learning to navigate and cope with group dynamics are far more important.
I also know some schools suggest a child is ready because they want to move said child out of the service for various reasons......

BonsaiKitten

That's what I would be thinking lazygal. They're trying to offload the child for whatever reason.

shesty

I"ve a parent who taught infants for years...one of her big bugbears was kids coming in from playschools having been "taught" an incorrect pencil grip.A lot of work had to go into unteaching them what they were taught, and teaching them the correct way to hold a pencil.Early years sector does need better regulation to be fair, as they all seem to operate differently.

lazygal

shesty wrote: »

I"ve a parent who taught infants for years...one of her big bugbears was kids coming in from playschools having been "taught" an incorrect pencil grip.A lot of work had to go into unteaching them what they were taught, and teaching them the correct way to hold a pencil.Early years sector does need better regulation to be fair, as they all seem to operate differently.

Absolutely. The preschool that is 'play based' doesn't seem to actually do anything beyond letting the children run riot all day. Seems like the Aistear curriculum is an excuse for some services to do SFA with the children during the session.

A lot of the Montessori materials are specifically designed to encourage correct pencil grip!

fima

lazygal wrote: »

Absolutely. The preschool that is 'play based' doesn't seem to actually do anything beyond letting the children run riot all day. Seems like the Aistear curriculum is an excuse for some services to do SFA with the children during the session.

A lot of the Montessori materials are specifically designed to encourage correct pencil grip!

That is nonsense. I can’t speak for all services but in my experience children are absolutely not allowed to ‘run riot’ . The fact is that children learn best through play, that is how they best develop emotionally and socially and how they develop their intrinsic motivation to learn. I personally would not send my child to a Montessori method school in a million years, they have years of formal learning ahead of them, what is the benefit to making a preschool age child sit and practice letters and numbers if they can’t properly interact with other children, problem solve and self regulate ? Preschool settings can be loud and may seem chaotic but there is always a timetable and in a good preschool there will be a lot of learning going on that will not be evident to the untrained eye.

Regarding pencil grip, children absolutely need to develop the ability to grip a pencil correctly but the best way to do this is providing lots of different age appropriate playful activities that strengthen their hands and muscle memory.

lazygal

fima wrote: »

That is nonsense. I can’t speak for all services but in my experience children are absolutely not allowed to ‘run riot’ . The fact is that children learn best through play, that is how they best develop emotionally and socially and how they develop their intrinsic motivation to learn. I personally would not send my child to a Montessori method school in a million years, they have years of formal learning ahead of them, what is the benefit to making a preschool age child sit and practice letters and numbers if they can’t properly interact with other children, problem solve and self regulate ? Preschool settings can be loud and may seem chaotic but there is always a timetable and in a good preschool there will be a lot of learning going on that will not be evident to the untrained eye.

Regarding pencil grip, children absolutely need to develop the ability to grip a pencil correctly but the best way to do this is providing lots of different age appropriate playful activities that strengthen their hands and muscle memory.

Wind your neck in. I said this about one service.

Montessori method is not all about making children sit and learn. Have a read of the method before having a little rant.

fima

lazygal wrote: »

Wind your neck in. I said this about one service.

Montessori method is not all about making children sit and learn. Have a read of the method before having a little rant.

You didn’t specify you were taking about one service , you said some services. I’ve studied the method , it was developed for street children known as ‘idiots’ to help them develop life skills their lifestyle didn’t afford them.

lazygal

fima wrote: »

You didn’t specify you were taking about one service , you said some services. I’ve studied the method , it was developed for street children known as ‘idiots’ to help them develop life skills their lifestyle didn’t afford them.

Yes and we used to legislate for people with disabilities using the Lunacy Act, what's your point?

fima

lazygal wrote: »

Yes and we used to legislate for people with disabilities using the Lunacy Act, what's your point?

You told me to have a read of it, I told you I read it, studied it and my previous post told you I don’t like it, I prefer a play based and child led approach. Have a nice day.

lazygal

fima wrote: »

You told me to have a read of it, I told you I read it, studied it and my previous post told you I don’t like it, I prefer a play based and child led approach. Have a nice day.

Not sure why you needed to toss in the 'idiots' comment but you too.

heldel00

dr_funkenstein wrote: »

OP here.

Firstly I'd just like to thank everyone for all the perspectives and debate on this thread. It's like a microcosm of what we're experiencing I had another call with the Montesorri this morning who again expressed strong reservations about keeping our son for another year. They did confirm that he could potentially stay another year if we still feel the same in June. If he stays, their main concern is what his learning plan would be as he is already pre-reading and doing addition. Honestly, it's his maturity that we're thinking of right now so haven't really formed any opinion yet on what he could be doing in another year of pre-school. It's not really a resolution per se yet but it's still some progress so I'm OK with that. I do believe that we (us & Montesorri) are trying to do what we think is best for our son, we're just polar opposites in opinion right now.

Question for the group, is transition year now something that all kids do?

Easy said but can you switch preschool to more of a playgroup setting. Nothing against Montessori at all, i have no personal exoerimce of it but a my oldest went to a community playschool and it was just that - play.
They follow a structured approach to learning through play called Aistear so it's not just an airy fairy concept. Lots of learning happening but no formal pre-reading/ number work etc, all through play.
I'm teaching 15+yrs and i only taught my fella how to write his name (not even surname) before starting school.

Edited to add: i see a lot of my post has already been mentioned. I got distracted by the row!

RentDayBlues

Popping back in here. My daughter did 3 years full in Montessori. It was meant to be 1 year part time and 1 full time but ended up being 3 years full time.

Was she bored? Not once
Was she challenged and encouraged to develop at her speed? Yes

This was all down to the staff. When I expressed concern at her having to stay for an unexpected third year they were so reassuring, they are capable of teaching children beyond 1 year.