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School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan
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Supporting students at home with zoom will be near nigh impossible. Hard to listen etc in a busy bustling secondary-classroom.
Plus given we don't have our own rooms - do you really have the time to set it up Everytime you move ?
Perhaps keep in touch with missing pupils by goggle classroom?
For a start full licenses for zoom would need to be purchased.
Can the students not just use the chat function and you enlarge it so it pops up on screen for you? I've done it in lectures and it works reasonably well. I've also popped a wireless earbud in but the students preferred the chat. Your mic won't pick up on a lot of the background noise and the student should be able to hear.
In relation to setting up for each class, I don't really see the issue. It only takes a minute or two if you're using your own laptop. If it's a computer in a room, it should be faster. I've to setup for each and every lecture I give (which are an hour long).
I sympathize with teachers but this just seems to be looking for issues. Zoom licenses would be needed of course. That's a fair comment.0 -
Can the students not just use the chat function and you enlarge it so it pops up on screen for you? I've done it in lectures and it works reasonably well. I've also popped a wireless earbud in but the students preferred the chat. Your mic won't pick up on a lot of the background noise and the student should be able to hear.
In relation to setting up for each class, I don't really see the issue. It only takes a minute or two if you're using your own laptop. If it's a computer in a room, it should be faster. I've to setup for each and every lecture I give (which are an hour long).
I sympathize with teachers but this just seems to be looking for issues. Zoom licenses would be needed of course. That's a fair comment.
Most things are overcome with planning but I see no evidence of that happening. But you would need the license issue sorted plus microphones provided. The department should just do a deal with zoom.
You say you lecture ? Not sure if you truly understand the chaos of secondary schools. Kids arriving late. Kids arriving without any books/ copies / pens. Kids throwing stuff at each other while you are sorting out technical issues. I just don't have faith in the department or my school to streamline issues.
Plus technical support in our schools provided once a week for 2 hours.Thats the truth baby !
Zoom technical support is even more laughable. I had issues with it in March. They replied in late July.0 -
Most things are overcome with planning but I see no evidence of that happening. But you would need the license issue sorted plus microphones provided. The department should just do a deal with zoom.
You say you lecture ? Not sure if you truly understand the chaos of secondary schools. Kids arriving late. Kids arriving without any books/ copies / pens. Kids throwing stuff at each other while you are sorting out technical issues. I just don't have faith in the department or my school to streamline issues.
Plus technical support in our schools provided once a week for 2 hours.Thats the truth baby !
Zoom technical support is even more laughable. I had issues with it in March. They replied in late July.
Licenses need to be sorted all right. Comparing University to secondary school isn't an overly fair comparison for some of the reasons you've said above. Saying that, Universities don't have some golden technical support. I've had projectors broken for an entire semester, lecture rooms with no whiteboard/chalkboard etc. Lectured in foreign counties where I have zero technical support but managed to deliver a lecture in Dublin and the foreign country at the same time. It's quite straight forward.
You were saying supporting a child via Zoom at home isn't viable. I disagree. Kids arriving late isn't an issue. Kids arriving without a book/copy isn't an issue. Kids being loud isn't (overly) an issue. They don't impact on the kid at home.
The setup time is relatively negligible and can be done while sorting out the class. It's 1 or 2 cables and loading 1 or 2 programs. The student at home can ask questions via the chat (which only you can see and can respond via voice). You don't need to be provided a microphone, the mic on the laptop would be sufficient. If it's a desktop, you can buy a cheap one for a few euro. I'm not sure what technical support you need. It's relatively lightweight and can all be setup in advance. 1 or 2 hours a week is sufficient for a school.0 -
Licenses need to be sorted all right. Comparing University to secondary school isn't an overly fair comparison for some of the reasons you've said above. Saying that, Universities don't have some golden technical support. I've had projectors broken for an entire semester, lecture rooms with no whiteboard/chalkboard etc. Lectured in foreign counties where I have zero technical support but managed to deliver a lecture in Dublin and the foreign country at the same time. It's quite straight forward.
You were saying supporting a child via Zoom at home isn't viable. I disagree. Kids arriving late isn't an issue. Kids arriving without a book/copy isn't an issue. Kids being loud isn't (overly) an issue. They don't impact on the kid at home.
The setup time is relatively negligible and can be done while sorting out the class. It's 1 or 2 cables and loading 1 or 2 programs. The student at home can ask questions via the chat (which only you can see and can respond via voice). You don't need to be provided a microphone, the mic on the laptop would be sufficient. If it's a desktop, you can buy a cheap one for a few euro. I'm not sure what technical support you need. It's relatively lightweight and can all be setup in advance. 1 or 2 hours a week is sufficient for a school.
1 or 2 hours for an entire school of 60 teachers is not really enough. Part of the problem is teachers not properly over seeing kids on computers and teachers themselves not being careful with computers. Plus kids deliberately wreck computers. But most things can be overcome it's just with the discipline problems in some schools are so draining you don't have the energy to go off sorting out this stuff .
But I'm sure there are issues at University level that don't occur with secondary.
I did some brief work with Hibernia and with any technical issue sorted within the hour. Not comparing like with like but shows they invest in it unlike the department of education0 -
1 or 2 hours for an entire school of 60 teachers is not really enough. Part of the problem is teachers not properly over seeing kids on computers and teachers themselves not being careful with computers. Plus kids deliberately wreck computers. But most things can be overcome it's just with the discipline problems in some schools are so draining you don't have the energy to go off sorting out this stuff .
But I'm sure there are issues at University level that don't occur with secondary.
I did some brief work with Hibernia and with any technical issue sorted within the hour. Not comparing like with like but shows they invest in it unlike the department of education
There are loads of challenges for second level with supporting kids online. Many of them only secondary school teachers will be able to predict. However,- The setup time. Plugging in a VGA, logging in, opening Zoom and starting the session is not one that poses any real issues.
- Engaging with the student at home i.e. using the chat function.
- Microphones, the one on the laptop is sufficient or one can be bought for very little.
I don't think much technical support is needed after the initial setup but maybe I'm wrong. Our setup is much easier and our staff relatively comfortable using technology as we've been doing it years. I personally try and avoid asking for help as much as possible. It's usually faster to fix myself.
Kids damaging or breaking things is challenging and, more than likely, will happen. The main concern I would have is in technical subjects. Students at home would not be able to see work done on the whiteboard or experiments in a lab.
I don't think the original points you raised are valid but I do think there are many obstacles to overcome. The department have not issued anything that would give me confidence that teachers/schools will be properly supported.0 -
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With respect, I don't think you've had to move from class to class before if you don't think those things you described are an issue.0
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SligoBrewer wrote: »With respect, I don't think you've had to move from class to class before if you don't think those things you described are an issue.
I move from lecture hall to lecture hall regularly. I don't see how the 3 bullet points above pose any issue. There are plenty of others issues however.0 -
I move from lecture hall to lecture hall regularly. I don't see how the 3 bullet points above pose any issue. There are plenty of others issues however.
It is an issue with many students, not all. If you waste any time starting the lesson they are lost, and possibly a fight will break out while you are plugging in and logging on. That's the reality of a lot of schools. They need 100% attention and supervision to prevent all hell breaking loose. It's another reason student based rooms will prove a disaster.0 -
Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »It is an issue with many students, not all. If you waste any time starting the lesson they are lost, and possibly a fight will break out while you are plugging in and logging on. That's the reality of a lot of schools. They need 100% attention and supervision to prevent all hell breaking loose. It's another reason student based rooms will prove a disaster.
I assume they are unsupervised from when the previous class ends and the next begins? An extra 1 minute setup isn't going to make much of a difference. You can give them 99% concentration when setting up, plugging a cable in and pressing a few buttons takes zero effort or concentration.
Roudiness between classes is clearly going to be an issue but wasn't what I was responding too.0 -
I move from lecture hall to lecture hall regularly. I don't see how the 3 bullet points above pose any issue. There are plenty of others issues however.
There’s a difference. Third level the students just enter at will. You set up and just tumble into teaching in my experience. There’s no responsibility on you to get them ready or take attendance by and large
On the other hand here’s a typical 40 minute long class of 30 first years in maths. Arrive and bring them in. Plug in my laptop (Hoping desperately that both the projector and WiFi work), get out my books while simultaneously getting the students into desks which may or may not be in the correct layout or may not even have enough chairs/tables in the room. Answer the many questions that arrive as they settle in. Take the roll on vsware on my phone because the WiFi hasn’t connected yet while giving a note to the late student and signing a journal for a student who is bursting to go to the toilet. Write up a starter question since WiFi has only just connected and my slide hasn’t loaded yet. Homework open on desks, round to view it, sign copies and sign journals for two more notes to students who didn’t do their homework. Also receive a note from a parent asking me to redo the topic because the student doesn’t understand it. Sign that too. Check laptop again. Give up on starter problem and slides and take out a marker since internet is down again. A good ten minutes (or more on a bad day) into the 40 minutes finally start correction/run through of homework and quickly text management simultaneously to tell them WiFi is down while also remembering to check regularly with the three students who didn’t do/understand their homework that they are with me.
All of this will be exacerbated by teachers not having base classrooms this year. Every second counts at the start of a class with maths courses to finish. And our WiFi goes down so regularly that it would be incredibly difficult to be broadcasting live too. There is no way in hell I could be remembering to read a chat box at the same time as maintaining the full attention of the class in the room. And that’s not getting into any difficulties you face with parents who won’t want their child’s voice/questions or misbehaviour recorded or broadcast from the room at all.
Having said that, support my students in or out of school? Absolutely. I have an awful lot of demo videos already done for maths and they all know already I am accessible. Google classroom has been part of my room for years and My homework is already up there (I’ll admit some days it doesn’t go up at the time because it can be frantic if I’m moving rooms). It’s just that zoom or broadcasting live classes won’t be realistic in many schools0 -
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mirrorwall14 wrote: »There’s a difference. Third level the students just enter at will. You set up and just tumble into teaching in my experience. There’s no responsibility on you to get them ready or take attendance by and large
On the other hand here’s a typical 40 minute long class of 30 first years in maths. Arrive and bring them in. Plug in my laptop (Hoping desperately that both the projector and WiFi work), get out my books while simultaneously getting the students into desks which may or may not be in the correct layout or may not even have enough chairs/tables in the room. Answer the many questions that arrive as they settle in. Take the roll on vsware on my phone because the WiFi hasn’t connected yet while giving a note to the late student and signing a journal for a student who is bursting to go to the toilet. Write up a starter question since WiFi has only just connected and my slide hasn’t loaded yet. Homework open on desks, round to view it, sign copies and sign journals for two more notes to students who didn’t do their homework. Also receive a note from a parent asking me to redo the topic because the student doesn’t understand it. Sign that too. Check laptop again. Give up on starter problem and slides and take out a marker since internet is down again. A good ten minutes (or more on a bad day) into the 40 minutes finally start correction/run through of homework and quickly text management simultaneously to tell them WiFi is down while also remembering to check regularly with the three students who didn’t do/understand their homework that they are with me.
All of this will be exacerbated by teachers not having base classrooms this year. Every second counts at the start of a class with maths courses to finish. And our WiFi goes down so regularly that it would be incredibly difficult to be broadcasting live too. There is no way in hell I could be remembering to read a chat box at the same time as maintaining the full attention of the class in the room. And that’s not getting into any difficulties you face with parents who won’t want their child’s voice/questions or misbehaviour recorded or broadcast from the room at all.
Having said that, support my students in or out of school? Absolutely. I have an awful lot of demo videos already done for maths and they all know already I am accessible. Google classroom has been part of my room for years and My homework is already up there (I’ll admit some days it doesn’t go up at the time because it can be frantic if I’m moving rooms). It’s just that zoom or broadcasting live classes won’t be realistic in many schools
University and second level are not comparable at all. I 100% agree. I can just kick students out if they are acting up (i.e. drunk). I can demand perfect silence and get it. If something doesnt work, I can call off the class. Much much much easier at third level.
I wouldn't disagree with anything you say. Certainly the lack of reliable wifi is an issue that won't be resolved. There are lots of good points there. However, I was responding to the line "do you really have the time to set it up everytime you move". With a small bit of local planning, e.g. trunking to the projector and a VGA terminal, and common sense, the setup time is negligible and could easily be done when taking the roll for example. Yes, your approach would have to be modified slightly but it's not insurmountable or justification for not supporting a student remotely (plenty of other good reasons for that). It may be slightly annoying but I really don't see it as much more than that. Obviously students messing with connections could be an issue.
As an aside, you can setup Zoom so that a massive alert pops up on your screen. You can catch it out of the corner of your eye (although taking the time to stop, read, and process what they are saying may not be feasible at second level, it does take you out of your flow for a second).0 -
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It could have been done if the Dept didn't leave schools 4 weeks before issuing any sort of guidance or budgets to get everything sorted to get back to school.
Basically.
And this is the stuff that I meant earlier when we were saying that they had to wait and see how the numbers panned out before planning -sure they did, but a huge amount could have been done without waiting for numbers.0 -
I was in the opticians the other day picking up new glasses. It was quiet and only one other customer there. Both myself and the optician wearing masks. She was only a couple of metres away from me and on 2 occasions pulled back her mask to repeat something I hadn't heard properly. Last weekend we went to a hotel. The breakfast room was quite busy and it was really difficult to have any sort of conversation with serving staff as the masks made voices muffled. I seriously do not believe we will be able to wear masks all day and do our jobs properly. And let's not forget we're much more than subject experts. I'm a year head for 3rd and 5th, 3rd being the boldest year in the school every year. My door is knocked on many times a day. Discipline issues will still exist and will increase, in my opinion. There are videos going around social media giving kids ideas of how to drive the teacher crazy humming behind their mask etc. And we all have times when we need to raise our voices to a troublesome group. I wear a mask to Tesco etc and the minute I'm out the door it comes off me. I see very few teenagers wearing any sort of face covering. Its all going to be very challenging. I can see myself wearing a visor instead.
Also who polices mask wearing? Is it the person appointed to the job that gets 2 hours a week off their timetable? If a kid comes into my room with no mask what do I do??
I see the Student Association group (or whatever it's called), announcing "if you want us to wear masks we will"... I can say with certainty that the first day the kids are back at least half won't have a mask and there will be note after note from the ma saying x is allergic/has sensory issues etc etc.0 -
To be fair I'm in an inner city Deis schools and I can see a small minority of students having a problem.90% will do as they are required to do. I'm also a year head and I agree on that, I would take kids into my class to deal with behavour, have them sit down the back of a 6th year higher level maths class and see what that looks like, then speak to them after. This year will be very different.
We've had a number of management changes and behaviour had suffered over the last 12 months due to lack of consitancy and I there are certainly things like the humming etc that will be happening in the new teachers classes that won't in mine. Normally other staff could offer support, help with a bit of team teaching if they had time, sit in other classes ....all this will be gone. I know we will just figure it out as we go in some ways but it's very hard to know what we will really face going back. For 6 months some of our kids won't have followed a single instruction, will not have been asked to do a single thing, may not have had more than a passing conversation with any adult........the transition will be very difficult for them.0 -
It could have been done if the Dept didn't leave schools 4 weeks before issuing any sort of guidance or budgets to get everything sorted to get back to school.
Basically.
And this is the stuff that I meant earlier when we were saying that they had to wait and see how the numbers panned out before planning -sure they did, but a huge amount could have been done without waiting for numbers.
They didn't have procurement done on hand sanitizer......this could certainly have been done in March/April.....it boggles the mind0 -
pandoraj09 wrote: »I can see myself wearing a visor instead.
Visors are not safe. Evidence is mounting but this does the same thing as 30 minutes of reading in 30 seconds.
https://twitter.com/pchemstud/status/1285578411726053378?s=200 -
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Wonder what the result would have been with one of the 'normal' or 'designer' masks that are probably not upto the standard of a N95 mask.0 -
Wonder what the result would have been with one of the 'normal' or 'designer' masks that are probably not upto the standard of a N95 mask.
There are tests carried out which have been referenced on the mask thread. If you contact seanergy poster, I think they were his posts. They do provide a decrease in emissions and inhalation of droplets like all masks but obviously N95 masks are superior.0 -
The wifi being down is a continual problem in our school. At heart it's a **** contract the department signed with whoever..I suspect eir who are **** anyway.0
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In relation to setting up for each class, I don't really see the issue. It only takes a minute or two if you're using your own laptop. If it's a computer in a room, it should be faster. I've to setup for each and every lecture I give (which are an hour long).
I know my particular case doesn't apply to all schools/teachers. Our classrooms each have their own desktop pc. Because they are dated (and we can't get funding for new machines), it can sometimes take five or more minutes to login. If it's a machine you've never used before, it'd take longer to setup your profile on the computer. The relics we have are slow to even open a web browser or PowerPoint file after logging in.
Last year I purchased upgraded ram for my classroom's machine - I might not even see that room this year!
I've my own laptop, but of course most of the projectors are connected with VGA connectors that are locked behind a plastic housing to stop someone yanking them out. It's a disaster.0 -
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I know my particular case doesn't apply to all schools/teachers. Our classrooms each have their own desktop pc. Because they are dated (and we can't get funding for new machines), it can sometimes take five or more minutes to login. If it's a machine you've never used before, it'd take longer to setup your profile on the computer. The relics we have are slow to even open a web browser or PowerPoint file after logging in.
Last year I purchased upgraded ram for my classroom's machine - I might not even see that room this year!
I've my own laptop, but of course most of the projectors are connected with VGA connectors that are locked behind a plastic housing to stop someone yanking them out. It's a disaster.
I'd be sceptical of any school that doesn't have money for ICT equipment considering the size of the grant over the last few years.0 -
I'd be sceptical of any school that doesn't have money for ICT equipment considering the size of the grant over the last few years.
You'd be surprised. Most teachers use their own machine in our place ... no money for ICT. I even bought my own printer. I don't know what will happen in a few weeks but my laptop is staying at home - I'm not bringing it from to room. The latest I heard is they were updating laptops which are about twenty years old.0 -
Do you guys have a Digital Team in the school? We have a few teachers on ours and would have most of the say in what the digital grant is spent on. Extra grant too last year if you were engaging with the Framework. Am I wrong in assuming a lot of schools don't have a stand alone team in place?
Seems like money is being spent in some schools on strange things if it's not being noticed by staff0 -
mtoutlemonde wrote: »You'd be surprised. Most teachers use their own machine in our place ... no money for ICT. I even bought my own printer. I don't know what will happen in a few weeks but my laptop is staying at home - I'm not bringing it from to room. The latest I heard is they were updating laptops which are about twenty years old.
I'd be asking questions so. It makes no sense considering the amount given to each school.0 -
https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2019-press-releases/PR19-03-04.html
This kinda outlines it. I went to all the training and, as per the framework, we are a stand alone Team. We keep an eye on the budget and what we need to spend for the year comes out of this. We've update software, bought specialist software, learning support tools (my favourite are c-pens), laptops, computers, replacement projectors....whatever was required.We surveyed staff to get a feel, will do it again now over the next week or two so we are ready when we go back to come up with a new plan. Honestly if we hadn't done this we would have had no online learning platform in place, no laptops to give to kids, little training. We got a bit of the top up grant too. The department have been clear this is not up to the principal, its a multi-disciplinary team that meets and produces and action plan. New principal is not so keen on it being this way I think but not much they can do, its how it's done now and it might not be worth a fight given the clarity of the literature0 -
am_zarathustra wrote: »https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2019-press-releases/PR19-03-04.html
This kinda outlines it. I went to all the training and, as per the framework, we are a stand alone Team. We keep an eye on the budget and what we need to spend for the year comes out of this. We've update software, bought specialist software, learning support tools (my favourite are c-pens), laptops, computers, replacement projectors....whatever was required.We surveyed staff to get a feel, will do it again now over the next week or two so we are ready when we go back to come up with a new plan. Honestly if we hadn't done this we would have had no online learning platform in place, no laptops to give to kids, little training. We got a bit of the top up grant too. The department have been clear this is not up to the principal, its a multi-disciplinary team that meets and produces and action plan. New principal is not so keen on it being this way I think but not much they can do, its how it's done now and it might not be worth a fight given the clarity of the literature
Re the C- pens, how many did you buy and did you have a system where the child rents them or how did it go? I was thinking of suggesting these for our school as I think they are very useful.0 -
am_zarathustra wrote: »https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2019-press-releases/PR19-03-04.html
This kinda outlines it. I went to all the training and, as per the framework, we are a stand alone Team. We keep an eye on the budget and what we need to spend for the year comes out of this. We've update software, bought specialist software, learning support tools (my favourite are c-pens), laptops, computers, replacement projectors....whatever was required.We surveyed staff to get a feel, will do it again now over the next week or two so we are ready when we go back to come up with a new plan. Honestly if we hadn't done this we would have had no online learning platform in place, no laptops to give to kids, little training. We got a bit of the top up grant too. The department have been clear this is not up to the principal, its a multi-disciplinary team that meets and produces and action plan. New principal is not so keen on it being this way I think but not much they can do, its how it's done now and it might not be worth a fight given the clarity of the literature
This doesn't and won't happen in our place until the principal is gone.0 -
Re the C- pens, how many did you buy and did you have a system where the child rents them or how did it go? I was thinking of suggesting these for our school as I think they are very useful.
They are class, absolutely brilliant, french teacher was very impressed with language function. We got a trial to see how we liked them first then committed to buying a set. We didn't get much of a chance to use them but the plan would be for them used by students who need them for exams primarily and in SEN classes. The students effected would already be using the dragon software on personal and school devices. Hopefully they can be useful in french too!! I'll let you know how we get on0 -
Re the C- pens, how many did you buy and did you have a system where the child rents them or how did it go? I was thinking of suggesting these for our school as I think they are very useful.
We find them fantastic for dyslexic children- it allows them access age appropriate text. The resultant rise in self confidence is fab. Any of our children who use them love them. There can however be issues around fine motor skills and for some reason every so often the c pen won’t recognise certain text ( some library books ) or a random word. However even with these issues they really work well for children who struggle with accessing text. I would highly recommend them.0 -
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Anyone see Leo's interview where he said that clusters are to be expected but that it probably wouldn't be the principals fault. PROBABLY.0
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