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20-01-2010, 22:43   #46
El_Dangeroso
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Originally Posted by corkcomp View Post
My major problem with saying saturated fat is good is that it can be taken out of context. saturated fat might not be as bad if eaten as part of your diet, but lets face it your diet may not be the typical daily diet of most people. it can give people an excuse to eat breakfast rolls (one of the worst foods known to man IMO) because lots of saturated fat is good for you .. just think its important to keep the context .. a doctor who imo knows his stuff said to me previously that thousands of people are in a pre diabetes / insulin resistant state due to combining lots of BAD carbs and saturated fat, when I read up on it I came to the same conclusion
That's like being afraid of saying fruit and vegetables are good for you in case people eat 12 oranges a day. Breakfast rolls are bad but because of the refined flour, the margarine spread and the sunflower oil that the components were fried in. I think people are smart enough to know the difference.

Sorry, but I would take decades of systematic research over the opinion of a single doctor. He says that he sees all these people that are eating lots of saturated fat, but I bet they all eat more omega 6 than saturated fat.

Take a McDonalds meals, all are cooked in PUFA where possible. Most other fastfood chains and junkfood (crisps, donuts) are cooked with 100% PUFA. Every food consumption survey around shows a drastic reduction in saturated fat in favour of PUFA.

I think your doctor friend is confusing physiological insulin resistance with clinical insulin resistance. Easily done but the former is temporary and spares glucose for the brain and the latter is a precursor to diabetes. That's how sat fat got wrongly implicated in diabetes.

I don't see how you can reconcile the fact that these studies of diets including unrestricted amounts of saturated fat but restricted carbs on diabetics show drastic improvements in glucose control.

Here's a graph showing the improvement in HbA1c. Each line represents one individual:


The one who didn't improve was a drop-out.

The fact remains that everyone should make sure that the fat they do eat is saturated and ditch the chemically derived crap. That's what we've been doing for centuries before now and this diabetes epidemic is a very recent phenomenon.
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20-01-2010, 22:50   #47
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Originally Posted by Temple_Grandin View Post
I don't see how you can reconcile the fact that these studies of diets including unrestricted amounts of saturated fat but restricted carbs on diabetics is a very recent phenomenon.
thats the point i was making in a round about way, but you mis interputed I think. the studies involving saturated fat consumption LIMITED the carbs and this is my point - if the subjects consumed lots of saturated fats and lots of carbs - the results would probably have been different. even though you may not like it, the fact is that most of the irish population consume lots of carbs and telling them to consume saturated fat also is not a good thing. In the past i ate a diet of about 75 - 80% carbs and continuted to lose weight and i reckon it was because I was limiting fat intake, where as people who cut out carbs also lose weight for a similar reason i.e. not consuming a mix of carbs and fat
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20-01-2010, 23:22   #48
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You'll find those people who eat plentiful fat and carbs and develop heart disease or diabetes, eat too many refined carbs and plenty of PUFA.

The 20 or more prospective trials that found that reducing saturated fat had no impact heart disease weren't low carb at all, they were people eating regular amounts of carbs.

The argument that saturated fat becomes harmful in the presence of sufficient carbohydrate doesn't hold water for heart disease or diabetes.

Saturated fat, independent of anything else is at worst benign and at best highly beneficial due to increases of HDL and bouyant fluffy LDL, and it's liver cleansing ability.
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20-01-2010, 23:33   #49
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Just found this awesome graph:



From data compiled from the British heart foundation (do those guys even look at what they publish?)

This is a breakdown of percentage sat fat consumption and CHD and stroke by country. No countries included eat low carb per se.

Now I know that observational data can't prove anything, but it can sure as heck can put a big gaping hole in a hypothesis.

Is it just me or does it look like the more saturated fat you eat as a percentage of your diet the less your risk of heart disease and stroke? Why would that be?

Edited to say that the y axis is number of incidences of the disease and and the numbers above each country name are the % saturated fat consumption. All available data from each country was included.

Last edited by El_Dangeroso; 20-01-2010 at 23:38.
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21-01-2010, 00:00   #50
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Originally Posted by Temple_Grandin View Post
Just found this awesome graph
Tehe you're an even bigger nerd than I am!
Sorry I'll butt out now
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21-01-2010, 00:30   #51
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Haha, guilty as charged!

Do butt in, what's your opinion on the subject?

Is it wise to advise people to not reduce their saturated fat intake as a healthy eating strategy?
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21-01-2010, 01:08   #52
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Originally Posted by Temple_Grandin View Post
Haha, guilty as charged!

Do butt in, what's your opinion on the subject?

Is it wise to advise people to not reduce their saturated fat intake as a healthy eating strategy?
hmmm... My advice to the average joe (no background medical issues etc considered) would always be to be carb conscious (ie. zero processed sugar, low sugar fruits only and small amounts of wholegrains - 2 portions a day and only 1 of them a flour product if they were someone prone to weight gain)and to stick to unporcessed organic and preferably free range meats, fish and eggs without paying much attention to how much sat fat they take in.

I'm not a fan of dairy at all so in that sense I would be against a high sat fat food, but I have no problem with sensible amounts of good quality meat and eggs. So I guess its wise to advise against certain sat fat foods and not others, but it hasn't really got much to do with the type or amount of fat in them rather I just don't think milk and it's products are appropriate for humans beyond human breast milk as a child.

I think the cholesterol thing is a bit of a joke at this stage and am fairly sure the saturated fat thing is too the more I learn about it, but that being said I'm not the best person to judge at this stage in my education I've a hell of a lot to learn before I can fly against the wind as you do.

It would depend on the person too though and how clued up they were, like corkcomp said if I were to say that to the wrong person they might go off and start eating fries 3 times a day with no veg or fruit (I lived with a guy for a year who did exactly that and his diet was supplemented only by huge amounts of beer every night ) and ignore the advice that didn't appeal to them (ie. the masses of vegetables part)

This is the issue as far as public health goes is how much can we trust people to use the advice appropriately without ruining their health.
At the end of the day your average joe doesn't give much of a damn about what he puts in his mouth as long as it tastes good so it's not realistic to expect people to eat as well as the likes of people on this forum would so even the most up to date knowledge we have about these things could be construed into a very dangerous message in the minds of the public. Hence the far from ideal food pyramid.

I think a moderate fat and moderate carb approach is most sensible for losing weight and general health and that a focus on quality and unprocessed foods is the most important thing without focusing too heavily on exact quantities of one macronutrient or another. If you ask me it should be micronutrient intake (ie. nutrient density) we should be concerned about.

I'm starting to be fairly concerned about gluten the more I look into it and I think there's a lot to be said for some of the research done in that area too and it that sense advocating a high carb low fat diet could be a serious no no.

I personally am always unsure of veg oils as you never really know what they've had done to them before you get them. I mean even sitting around on the supermarket shelves in sunlight and more than likely having a huge surface area exposed to the air during the pressing, filtering and bottling process is a scary thought.

I personally use coconut fat for cooking, I think stable saturated fat is a safer option than polyunsaturated and low quality veg oils for cooking at least.

It's a terribly tricky situation really, how do we make sure we only get clean, non-rancid and good quality fats in our diets without going too low fat or too high (so as we end up obese).

Communnicating any nutritional advice to the public is so risky too as they are prone to cherry pick the advice that they like and ignore the rest.

If people actually had the time and motivation to cook their food from scratch and only used wholefood ingredients I don't think we'd have to worry so much about RDA's and precise guidlines for the exact amounts of each nutrient to be healthy.

I don't think this post is going to make any sense and I don't think I really answered you question, sorry!

I barely know what I think anymore, the more I learn the more dissilussioned I become with everything I thought I knew and have been taught and I'm going to be a qualified in 4 months.
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22-01-2010, 21:55   #53
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Originally Posted by khrystyna100 View Post
hmmm... My advice to the average joe (no background medical issues etc considered) would always be to be carb conscious (ie. zero processed sugar, low sugar fruits only and small amounts of wholegrains - 2 portions a day and only 1 of them a flour product if they were someone prone to weight gain)and to stick to unporcessed organic and preferably free range meats, fish and eggs without paying much attention to how much sat fat they take in.
Thanks for the input, I'd pretty much agree with that, 'cept I'd probably advise ditching the flour full stop. But that's just me

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Originally Posted by khrystyna100 View Post
I'm not a fan of dairy at all so in that sense I would be against a high sat fat food, but I have no problem with sensible amounts of good quality meat and eggs. So I guess its wise to advise against certain sat fat foods and not others, but it hasn't really got much to do with the type or amount of fat in them rather I just don't think milk and it's products are appropriate for humans beyond human breast milk as a child.
Hmm, I've been changing my mind on dairy (I change my mind a lot, reading scientific literature demands it ). Unless you have leaky gut or an autoimmune disease I can't see any research in healthy people that shows it as specifically damaging to the gut, unlike gluten. Quite the opposite, the masai mara tribe drink a load of raw milk and have zero heart disease. It doesn't affect me personally, I minimise it to hedge my bets but will put a little cheese with a salad or have cream in coffee which has minimal casein anyway and butter will always have a special place in my heart .

Of course, I'll change my mind right back if I see something compelling to the contrary.

Re: not knowing what to think, I've always thought disillusionment merely a stepping stone on the path to enlightenment I don't have all the answers, not even close. I'm constantly confused by contradictory data. But one thing seems to hold true, that good quality unprocessed food is the way to go.
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23-01-2010, 14:33   #54
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Originally Posted by Temple_Grandin View Post
Hmm, I've been changing my mind on dairy (I change my mind a lot, reading scientific literature demands it ). Unless you have leaky gut or an autoimmune disease I can't see any research in healthy people that shows it as specifically damaging to the gut, unlike gluten. Quite the opposite, the masai mara tribe drink a load of raw milk and have zero heart disease. It doesn't affect me personally, I minimise it to hedge my bets but will put a little cheese with a salad or have cream in coffee which has minimal casein anyway and butter will always have a special place in my heart .
Hmmm.. I think the quality of raw 100% organic and pasture fed (presumably) milk might be a different story to the pasteurised, potentially hormone laden, and partially grain fed milk we get here though.
I generally think that it's not necessarily a good idea to derive too many conclusions about diet by observing traditional cultures considering how vastly different their lifestyle, environment and eating habits are to ours, we live such an artificial and alien existance to our ancestors and surviving tribal and/or hunter gatherer populations with any number of added strains (chemical, physical, emotional etc..) on the body not to mention a hell of a lot less exercise. But thats a whole different topic altogether and my brain is far to fried right now for that!
Yup and the first step to enlightenment is realising you know feck all supposidly so I must be well on my way to a higer state of conciousness by now!
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23-01-2010, 14:58   #55
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Pretty much all Irish dairy is mainly pasture fed and completely hormone free for what it's worth. I have American friends who buy imported Kerrygold and rave about it. It's a real gourmet product over there

I think raw milk is illegal to sell here though. It's a pity because there's a lot more nutrition in it and it wouldn't pose any health risks for someone who wasn't immuno-compromised. It would go off a lot quicker though. Is it just me or does milk not go off as quick as it used to?
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23-01-2010, 15:09   #56
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Pretty much all Irish dairy is mainly pasture fed and completely hormone free for what it's worth. I have American friends who buy imported Kerrygold and rave about it. It's a real gourmet product over there

I think raw milk is illegal to sell here though. It's a pity because there's a lot more nutrition in it and it wouldn't pose any health risks for someone who wasn't immuno-compromised. It would go off a lot quicker though. Is it just me or does milk not go off as quick as it used to?
Cows are finished off an grain here, granted we have great legislation around antibiotics etc.. but it's not so good elsewhere in the world like you said but imported cheese could be less reliable I suppose.
It is illegal but you can get it frm some farmers markets for a 'donation'. I have 2 guys I get free raw milk off the odd time for making paneer, the flavour is far superior. Most of the old lads keep a few litres for themselves every morning before the milk truck collects it.
I remember drinking milk warm from the cow after being hand milked by my nextdoor neighbour, we all drank it raw back then and it wasn't very long ago either (being 24 ) My parents had a pet cow for milk called bluebell and she had a calf called blackberry!
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23-01-2010, 15:28   #57
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Cows are finished off an grain here, granted we have great legislation around antibiotics etc.. but it's not so good elsewhere in the world like you said but imported cheese could be less reliable I suppose.
It is illegal but you can get it frm some farmers markets for a 'donation'. I have 2 guys I get free raw milk off the odd time for making paneer, the flavour is far superior. Most of the old lads keep a few litres for themselves every morning before the milk truck collects it.
I remember drinking milk warm from the cow after being hand milked by my nextdoor neighbour, we all drank it raw back then and it wasn't very long ago either (being 24 ) My parents had a pet cow for milk called bluebell and she had a calf called blackberry!
I thought they were only finished for slaughter? Good point on the imported cheese, ditto with meat, always worth spending a bit extra for quality and Irish if possible.

Lucky you having a raw-milk connection, I got some from a friend recently and oh my god the difference in taste was unreal, so creamy and rich.

Such a cute name for a cow! A friend of mine and her husband are both vegetarian. His family has a former dairy-farm where they now just keep all the cows as pets as pretty much the whole family are vegans. Expensive pets I'd say
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23-01-2010, 15:51   #58
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I thought they were only finished for slaughter? Good point on the imported cheese, ditto with meat, always worth spending a bit extra for quality and Irish if possible.

Lucky you having a raw-milk connection, I got some from a friend recently and oh my god the difference in taste was unreal, so creamy and rich.

Such a cute name for a cow! A friend of mine and her husband are both vegetarian. His family has a former dairy-farm where they now just keep all the cows as pets as pretty much the whole family are vegans. Expensive pets I'd say
damn right it's such a privelage to have access to such high quality and clean meat, dairy and seafood, I don't know if many people realise how lucky we are in the respect (for the time being anyway). Ireland sucks for fruit though and I would kill to be able to grow sweetpotatos and a decent variety of pumkins.
Yes expensive pets indeed, we used to rent a strip of the mountain I grew up on for my parents horsesm donkey and cow lol! Then the farmer put the rent up too high and we had to sell them!
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10-02-2010, 16:18   #59
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Everything makes you fat if you eat enough
i was going to mention that too, but its late in the day and I didnt want to bang my head off my desk!! its true though, and eating total crap wont make you fat either if you eat little enough of it..
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10-02-2010, 16:35   #60
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i was going to mention that too, but its late in the day and I didnt want to bang my head off my desk!! its true though, and eating total crap wont make you fat either if you eat little enough of it..
That's a little bit simplistic and not actually always true. Even when it is true the problem is that it's hard to eat little enough of crap food, your poor malnourished body will pump out every hormone to increase appetite that it can, until it's your willpower vs. the will of your body, and judging from most diet studies, the body wins 99.99999% of the time
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