Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

ILoveYourVibes · 07-06-2019 1:23am

I think hundreds of years of anti-antisemitism has shaped the lefts view of Israel.

ILoveYourVibes · 07-06-2019 1:24am

The fact that gentiles think its ok to dominate the discussion with Israel says it all.

07-06-2019 10:20am

Gringo180 wrote: »

Criticism of Israel is rising sharply across Europe, lets not confuse this with anti-semitism.

Anti-semitism is rising across Europe according to the reports. I think it is hardly coincidental that this parallels the rise of populism on both the right and left extremities.

Many governments in Europe criticise aspects if Israeli policy, and probably few more than our own. Criticism of Israeli policies is quite legitimate and is not anti-semitism. The barely concealed hatred of Israel, and the demonisation of Israel, by some populists groups and their followers is a completely different matter, which reeks of anti-semitism.

Of course here in Ireland anti-Israelism has been fueled long before the rise of European populism by Sinn Fein/IRA, because of their instinctive support and association with any terrorist organisation they could find worldwide - excepting their blood brothers in the UDA/UVF. So it was PLO = Good, Israel = Bad (subtle, wasn't it?).
They were fortunate to have got out of the terror business (formally at least) before the rise of Al Qaeda and ISIS or they wouldn't have known which way to turn.

The Sinn Fein/Aontu types contort themselves to shoe horn the Middle East into some type of anti-Brit narrative. So it may be more of a need to find an outlet for their "Brits out" mindset than anti-semitism that fuels them (however irrelevant this is to the situation).

07-06-2019 10:25am

So the British Labour candidate who won the Peterborough by-election "liked" a post that said Theresa May had "a Zionist slave master's agenda".

But she has said that she will now "deepen her understanding of anti-semitism" !

hatrickpatrick · 07-06-2019 1:39pm

1641 wrote: »

The barely concealed hatred of Israel, and the demonisation of Israel, by some populists groups and their followers is a completely different matter, which reeks of anti-semitism.

It isn't, though. It's more about Western hegemony and double standards than anything to do with race.

So it may be more of a need to find an outlet for their "Brits out" mindset than anti-semitism that fuels them (however irrelevant this is to the situation).

How exactly is it irrelevant? Israel exists because the Brits gave away something they had absolutely no moral right to make any decisions about whatsoever, against the will of the majority of people living there at the time. That places Israel on shaky enough ground to begin with, but most on the left will tell you that they would be willing to let that slide if Israel hadn't decided it had a right to seize even more land - again, without the consent of the people living there - by military force. The reasons for doing this are irrelevant, forcing civilians from their legitimate homes is an absolute moral wrong under any circumstances whatsoever.

Israel has a right to exist now (within its original borders, not the post-1967 clusterf*ck they're trying to pass off as legitimate) because many generations of people have now been born there through no fault of their own, because their parents moved there. But Israel should never have been created in the location it was located in, and that is 100% a British f*ck up, and yet another example in the world of British imperial bullsh!t.

There's a joke in an episode of Yes Minister in which two characters are discussing partition:

"Partition? You mean like we did in India, Cyprus, Palestine and Ireland?"

"That was our invariable practise in giving independence to colonies - it always worked."

"Eh... But didn't partition always lead to civil war? It did in India, Cyprus, Palestine and Ireland..."

"Exactly! It kept them busy, instead of fighting with us they were content to fight eachother!"

This is obviously political satire but it's an accurate representation of how things actually turned out. The Brits had no right to do what they did in the region, and for a state which existed on wafer thin ice as a legitimate concept in the first place to act as if it has a God-given right to take whatoever it wants from its neighbours with total disregard for how much misery this inflicts on innocent indigenous civilians is what makes Israel so infuriating as a state.

None of this is in any way grounded in anti-semitism. If Israel was a French colony or an Italian one, those of us who are anti-Zionist would still be absolutely repulsed by both its history and its present-day criminality.

I'll compare this with a comment I made in the "feral teens" thread a few days or weeks ago, when the thread devolved into an argument about the race of those involved and whether there was a racist element in those condemning it, or whether indeed there was a racial element in the gangs themselves - it doesn't matter what colour or creed a scumbag is, what matters is that they're a scumbag. So f*ck 'em.

What would it take, argument-wise, for those in the anti-Israel camp who are routinely accused of being anti-semitic to demonstrate that they are not - while maintaining their entirely legitimate political view that Israel is a state of ill-founded origin, and abhorrent present-day behaviour?

To state that holding these beliefs necessarily makes one anti-semitic in nature is simply untrue, and ironically you have perfectly summed up why in referencing the British Imperialist origin of the Israeli state in an attempt to delegitimise people whose beliefs on Israel stem at least in part from that very factor.

Is someone an anti-semitic racist for believing that the Balfour Declaration, apart from being an illegitimate act of attempted governance by an illegitimate foreign invader, was a monumentally moronic blunder, with decades-long catastrophic consequences?

Note that I actually support the right of Israel to exist, by virtue of so many third-generation Israelis (second and third generation Israelis comprise 70% of the population) who have nothing to do with the crimes of their ancestors. The same cannot be said for the Occupied Territories, where the generational demographics are rendered irrelevant by the fact that Palestinians outnumber Israeli settlers by millions to a few hundred thousand.

James Brown · 07-06-2019 2:16pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

yeah you cant walk do the street without bumping into white supremacists these days

But seemingly antisemites are everywhere, go figure...

Odhinn wrote: »

I suspect that no small amount of it is due to the notion that a secure Israel will lead to a Jewish exodus from their own states.

Pence and his crew support Israel because they believe it'll help beckon in the rapture. True story.

James Brown · 07-06-2019 2:19pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The fact that gentiles think its ok to dominate the discussion with Israel says it all.

Humans care about the plight of other humans. We should ignore the criminal Israeli regime because most of the population are Jewish? Give over.

James Brown · 07-06-2019 2:26pm

1641 wrote: »

Anti-semitism is rising across Europe according to the reports. I think it is hardly coincidental that this parallels the rise of populism on both the right and left extremities.

Many governments in Europe criticise aspects if Israeli policy, and probably few more than our own. Criticism of Israeli policies is quite legitimate and is not anti-semitism. The barely concealed hatred of Israel, and the demonisation of Israel, by some populists groups and their followers is a completely different matter, which reeks of anti-semitism.

Of course here in Ireland anti-Israelism has been fueled long before the rise of European populism by Sinn Fein/IRA, because of their instinctive support and association with any terrorist organisation they could find worldwide - excepting their blood brothers in the UDA/UVF. So it was PLO = Good, Israel = Bad (subtle, wasn't it?).
They were fortunate to have got out of the terror business (formally at least) before the rise of Al Qaeda and ISIS or they wouldn't have known which way to turn.

The Sinn Fein/Aontu types contort themselves to shoe horn the Middle East into some type of anti-Brit narrative. So it may be more of a need to find an outlet for their "Brits out" mindset than anti-semitism that fuels them (however irrelevant this is to the situation).

You contradict yourself above. Criticism of Israeli policy is not antisemetic, but some you don't like protesting Israeli policy are antisemetic? If the protests are calling out specific issues with Israeli policy, that's good enough, if you want to read antisemetism into that, that's on you.
The Irish who support the Palestinians, (not all 'RA heads by the way) likely see a fellowship with the Palestinians and the Israeli aggressors taking their land and putting their laws upon them. I can see it.
All your comments basically suggest only extremists support Palestinians and you tend to dodge the right because you don't want to ruffle the feathers of any racists who agree with Israel on Palestine IMO.
How come you don't put as much energy into calling out right wingers who may and are antisemetic? Because you'd rather concentrate on people or groups who support Palestine and it's right to exist.

07-06-2019 2:35pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

..... Israel exists because the Brits gave away something they had absolutely no moral right to make any decisions about whatsoever, against the will of the majority of people living there at the time. That places Israel on shaky enough ground to begin with, but most on the left will tell you that they would be willing to let that slide if Israel hadn't decided it had a right to seize even more land - again, without the consent of the people living there - by military force. The reasons for doing this are irrelevant, forcing civilians from their legitimate homes is an absolute moral wrong under any circumstances whatsoever.

This is obviously political satire but it's an accurate representation of how things actually turned out. The Brits had no right to do what they did in the region, and for a state which existed on wafer thin ice as a legitimate concept in the first place to act as if it has a God-given right to take whatoever it wants from its neighbours with total disregard for how much misery this inflicts on innocent indigenous civilians is what makes Israel so infuriating as a state.

What would it take, argument-wise, for those in the anti-Israel camp who are routinely accused of being anti-semitic to demonstrate that they are not - while maintaining their entirely legitimate political view that Israel is a state of ill-founded origin, and abhorrent present-day behaviour?

Is someone an anti-semitic racist for believing that the Balfour Declaration, apart from being an illegitimate act of attempted governance by an illegitimate foreign invader, was a monumentally moronic blunder, with decades-long catastrophic consequences?

Note that I actually support the right of Israel to exist, by virtue of so many third-generation Israelis (second and third generation Israelis comprise 70% of the population) who have nothing to do with the crimes of their ancestors. The same cannot be said for the Occupied Territories, where the generational demographics are rendered irrelevant by the fact that Palestinians outnumber Israeli settlers by millions to a few hundred thousand.

I am not defending the Balfour Declaration or historic British imperialism in general. But Israel was not created by Britain or by the Balfour Declaration. There had been Jewish immigration to Palestine for centuries before the Balfour Declaration, mainly in response to some outbreak of pogromming or other. It accelerated rapidly from the 1880s onwards, even before Herzl founded the Zionist movement with the aim of establishing a Jewish state there. Britain had nothing to do with this. In the midst of the first world war the British made duplicitous and incompatible promises to both sides - with a view to getting the support of each to win the war. Certainly duplicitous but not exactly unprecedented in the context of war.

Certainly immigration continued thereafter but the biggest acceleration came with the 1930s as anti-semitism hit its worst in Europe. The British actually tried to control Jewish immigration and were not regarded as friendly or supportive by the Jews.

The partition of Palestine in 1947 was by a vote of the United Nations General Assembly. It was not a creation of the British who had by then given up trying to find a solution. Thereafter, Israel was constantly attacked by Arab neighbours, not with the aim of setting up a Palestinian state, but to "drive the Jews into the sea" and seize and divide up the spoils.

So, yes, the attempt to frame the very difficult problem as some kind "Brits Out" issue is pure bull. By the way, you say that "Israel should never have been created in the location it was located in". Where exactly had you in mind ? And as it was the place they were migrating to in ever increasing numbers, how were you going to move them to this other location ? Would they have to have been locked in there? Would you have preferred if the Jews who migrated had stayed in Europe and met there fate? Would that have spited the Brits enough for you?

Your description of Israel, its foundation and history is pure simplistic nonesense which only serves to support the vicious anti-Israeli (and often anti-semitic) narrative of a least a significant section ot the left. Its all down to the big, bad Israelis. I am perfectly capable of criticising Israeli policies, and I think they have made many wrong turns. But then so have their neighbours and so have the Palestinians.

I note your kind conclusion that you " actually support the right of Israel to exist, by virtue of so many third-generation Israelis (second and third generation Israelis comprise 70% of the population) who have nothing to do with the crimes of their ancestors". I hope you have communicated these good wishes to the people of Israel. It will no doubt help them feel secure and not worry any more about their situation.

07-06-2019 2:43pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

How come you don't put as much energy into calling out right wingers who may and are antisemetic? Because you'd rather concentrate on people or groups who support Palestine and it's right to exist.

I have no difficulty calling out right wing anti-semites. They are truly disgusting and deniers of history.But at least they recognise their anti-semitism and relish their fellow anti-semites.

The left have long harboured their own anti-semites and are in denial about it. And it tends to focus on demonisation of Israel. But "international bankers" and other tropes also feature. Any left groups that are truly anti-racist would call out these snakes in the grass.

suicide_circus · 07-06-2019 5:21pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

But seemingly antisemites are everywhere, go figure

both contentions are total bollox

Grayson · 07-06-2019 5:34pm

1641 wrote: »

Anti-semitism is rising across Europe according to the reports. I think it is hardly coincidental that this parallels the rise of populism on both the right and left extremities.

Many governments in Europe criticise aspects if Israeli policy, and probably few more than our own. Criticism of Israeli policies is quite legitimate and is not anti-semitism. The barely concealed hatred of Israel, and the demonisation of Israel, by some populists groups and their followers is a completely different matter, which reeks of anti-semitism.

Of course here in Ireland anti-Israelism has been fueled long before the rise of European populism by Sinn Fein/IRA, because of their instinctive support and association with any terrorist organisation they could find worldwide - excepting their blood brothers in the UDA/UVF. So it was PLO = Good, Israel = Bad (subtle, wasn't it?).
They were fortunate to have got out of the terror business (formally at least) before the rise of Al Qaeda and ISIS or they wouldn't have known which way to turn.

The Sinn Fein/Aontu types contort themselves to shoe horn the Middle East into some type of anti-Brit narrative. So it may be more of a need to find an outlet for their "Brits out" mindset than anti-semitism that fuels them (however irrelevant this is to the situation).

I'm not sure if pro-israel or pro-palestinian describes the way most people feel.

Saying Pro israel means that you support their actions. the settlements, the bombings and denying the palestinians a government.

When people say pro-palestinian it sounds anti israeli. Like you don't think israel should exist.

What i want is an end to violence and for the rights of people on both side to be recognized. I think most "lefties" would agree with that.

(BTW, I do recognise that antisemitism exists on the left as well, I mentioned it ages ago in this thread but I'm not expecting anyone to remember that far back. I just don't think it's as widespread as some people say).

Odhinn · 07-06-2019 5:49pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think hundreds of years of anti-antisemitism has shaped the lefts view of Israel.

I'd say its more so 50 years of colonial expansion tbh.

Igotadose · 07-06-2019 5:53pm

Odhinn wrote: »

I'd say its more so 50 years of colonial expansion tbh.

I think it's BDS and their muppets that makes it seem 'trendy' for so-called leftists to be anti-Israel, and of that group, some of them let their anti-semitism slip.

And perhaps that's why anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe, a fairly left wing place. BDS has made it acceptable to let it slip.

Odhinn · 07-06-2019 5:57pm

Igotadose wrote: »

I think it's BDS and their muppets that makes it seem 'trendy' for so-called leftists to be anti-Israel,...............

Being "anti-Israel" is being in fact anti-colonialist, and thats been the raiso d'etre of the objections to Israeli policy since 1967.

BDS uses the same methodology as was used against Apartheid South Africa and is slowly but surely gaining ground in a similar fashion, hence the desperation to lable it anti-semitic.

markodaly · 09-06-2019 1:44am

riffmongous wrote: »

Not in '67 which is what I assume he was referring to by expansion

That is a technicality to be honest. The Arab nations were mobilised and ready en-masse to invade Israel. These intentions have never been denied. The fact that the IDF struck first via a preemptive strike is a fact of course and was clearly the right call militarily as the Arabs were destroyed within 6 days.

You don't take your shirt off and prepare for a fight, then complain that the other guy hit you first.

ILoveYourVibes · 09-06-2019 1:51am

Odhinn wrote: »

Being "anti-Israel" is being in fact anti-colonialist, and thats been the raiso d'etre of the objections to Israeli policy since 1967.

How do you suppose that when over 70% of the population are descended from jews living in the area for centuries?

ILoveYourVibes · 09-06-2019 1:53am

1641 wrote: »

So the British Labour candidate who won the Peterborough by-election "liked" a post that said Theresa May had "a Zionist slave master's agenda".

But she has said that she will now "deepen her understanding of anti-semitism" !

No Jewish conspiracy theory here at all!

Odhinn · 09-06-2019 1:56am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How do you suppose that when over 70% of the population are descended from jews living in the area for centuries?

You might want to provide a source for that.

ILoveYourVibes · 09-06-2019 2:15am

[PHP][/PHP]

Odhinn wrote: »

You might want to provide a source for that.

-_-

Dude the ottoman empire???

None of what you say makes sense. You realize 70% of Israel is mizrahi right?

So did the Palestinians colonize hebron?

There never was a palestinian state to colonize. There was the Ottoman empire. It was vast.

ILoveYourVibes · 09-06-2019 2:25am

https://timeline.com/nazis-muslim-extremists-ss-6824aee281d2

Maybe this had something to with what happened in Hebron.

The arab regime in Palestine has done nothing but evil for humanity. It might not be pc to say so but its true.

God HELP the Palestinians if Israel fell because it would be a blood bath.

ILoveYourVibes · 09-06-2019 2:42am

People should GO to the west bank and Israel before they make their minds up.

Unless you have been there you really don't know anything.

Danzy · 11-06-2019 4:02pm

Prominent Labour MP Rupa Huq being taken to court after hounding 2 Jewish employees out of her office.

When the last one was pushed out she tore a poster against antisemitism off the wall and on the floor.

They were Labour Party workers but they were still Jews at the end of the day for enough in Labour.

Naturally Huq has nothing to worry about.

Ulysses Gaze · 11-06-2019 4:35pm

Danzy wrote: »

Prominent Labour MP Rupa Huq being taken to court after hounding 2 Jewish employees out of her office.

When the last one was pushed out she tore a poster against antisemitism off the wall and on the floor.

They were Labour Party workers but they were still Jews at the end of the day for enough in Labour.

Naturally Huq has nothing to worry about.

Remember though....this is all a "Right Wing Media Conspiracy" to ensure Corbyn doesn't get into Number 10..

James Brown · 11-06-2019 5:07pm

1641 wrote: »

I have no difficulty calling out right wing anti-semites. They are truly disgusting and deniers of history.But at least they recognise their anti-semitism and relish their fellow anti-semites.

The left have long harboured their own anti-semites and are in denial about it. And it tends to focus on demonisation of Israel. But "international bankers" and other tropes also feature. Any left groups that are truly anti-racist would call out these snakes in the grass.

Right wing antisemites are your favourite kind of antisememites and you don't like people who claim they aren't but you think are. I get it.

Igotadose wrote: »

I think it's BDS and their muppets that makes it seem 'trendy' for so-called leftists to be anti-Israel, and of that group, some of them let their anti-semitism slip.

And perhaps that's why anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe, a fairly left wing place. BDS has made it acceptable to let it slip.

What complete crap. Putting people in a box is a much favoured past time of people who come up against thoughts they don't like. Find a left group and assign anyone you disagree with to that box. Simon Coveney is anti-Israeli policy. A bigger commie you'll never meet

James Brown · 11-06-2019 5:09pm

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Remember though....this is all a "Right Wing Media Conspiracy" to ensure Corbyn doesn't get into Number 10..

Yet the lefist liberals own the media. I guess it depends on what right wing pro Israeli shyte is being peddled on the day.

Odhinn · 11-06-2019 5:24pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

https://timeline.com/nazis-muslim-extremists-ss-6824aee281d2

Maybe this had something to with what happened in Hebron.

The arab regime in Palestine has done nothing but evil for humanity. It might not be pc to say so but its true.

God HELP the Palestinians if Israel fell because it would be a blood bath.

The old 'Nazi mufti=its ok to persecute the palestinians', despite the fact he was appointed by the Brits.

Odhinn · 11-06-2019 5:28pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

People should GO to the west bank and Israel before they make their minds up.

Unless you have been there you really don't know anything.

Which or what in these articles is untrue?

https://www.btselem.org/topic/settlements

https://www.btselem.org/topic/settler_violence

https://www.yesh-din.org/en/yitzhar-a-case-study-settler-violence-as-a-vehicle-for-taking-over-palestinian-land-with-state-and-military-backing/

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 11-06-2019 7:24pm

1641 wrote: »

Rubbish - One flag (perhaps there were more) shows that were anti-semites on this March. But it is only an illustration. Look at some of the posts that came up (and were tolerated) on pro-Corbyn social media accounts. And the one-sided obsession with Israel by some of our leftist (if that is what they are) pals in Ireland is along similar lines.

The obsession with Israel, in its defense, is conversly far right.

The far right groups you refer to are anti-semite in the same way they are Islamo-phobic. At the moment some are more interested in anti-Islam aspect - hence the Israeli flags as a provocation.They may want Jews to go to Israel but that is to get rid of them. There may well be some Jews who are sympathetic to far-right groups but they are very foolish. Jewish leaders have warned against this.

The fascists are pro Zionist - you seem to want to distinguish here between pro Zionism and pro semitism but not the reverse.

I take it that the Christian fundamentalist groups you are referring to are the ones who want "the Jews" to return to the "Holy Land" for some reason to do with the "Second Coming" of Jesus and conversion? It is not out of support for Jews as a people.

They don’t call for all Jews to return in fact. Jesus just needs 144,000 Jews to covert to Christianity. However they are pro Zionist. Like you.

As for your point about Zionism - what is wrong with supporting it? Without Zionism the state of Israel would never have been established and the outcome of the Holocaust would have been far worse. Nor would there have been a refuge for survivors afterwards.

Israel has a right to exist. The far right however support its takeover of the West Bank and support its actions against Palestinians for reasons to do with hatred of Islam. And racism. It’s a reliable indicator of right to far right sentiment.

Of course, some anti-zionists are not antisemites. But there are plenty who use this as a cloak of convenience to conceal their antisemitism (and, for some, perhaps even from themselves).

Hard to argue against self deception.i would say that The idea that anti semitism would appear on the left after centuries on the right doesn’t hold water.

But I don't know what your general issue is. The far-right are clearly anti semitic. I am not suggesting that the left are to the same extent ( or as crassly so) but there is a significant anti-semitic element there and, unfortunately, a considerable degree of tolerance for this. As if the left's mantra of tolerance includes tolerance for anti-semites.

I think you want to sling mud about (criticisms of Israel are anti Semitic) with much guilt by association (look at that one flag in that large demonstration). Personally I think the support for Israel - not its existence but it’s present day actions - is driven by racism. Although some might be concealing that from themselves.

I take it you see yourself as of the left?

No.

26-06-2019 1:49am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Bulgaria has made a law forbidding Jews From marrying non jews. It has made a law forbidding jews from holding govt jobs.
It bars them from holding any positions in government, municipal or other public institutions. It requires them to use Jewish names only, and stipulates that no Jew may become dependent upon the community.

It also forbids jews from living in the capital.

https://www.jta.org/1942/07/06/archive/bulgaria-emulates-nuremberg-laws-proclaims-new-anti-jewish-restrictions
It also says only a certain number of Jewish children can go to school and they must leave if a non Jewish child needs the place.

These are basically Nuremberg style laws. It's so so scary.

Totally the opposite of the direction Ukraine chose recently when they ignored antisemitic propaganda to elect a jewish president.

This has probably already been pointed out... You do know that that article is dated 1942, right?

Moving on to the 21st century, it bothers me that we are looking to Nazi Germany as the standard by which we are allowed to call something or someone a fascist.

It is true, perhaps, that Nazi Germany is the pinnacle of what modern fascists might ever hope to achieve with their pathetic worldview, but that doesn't mean that everything totalitarian has to be measured against the Nazis.

I don't believe that recent European history will repeat itself in our lifetimes. We're not going to see jews, gays and gypsies in concentration camps. Neither is that the standard with which we ought to judge the seriousness of the bigotry that is undoubtedly growing across Europe.

Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

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