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Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe
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ILoveYourVibes wrote: »They are not oblivious. They perceive it as punching up because they perceive Jews to be wealthy and elite.
They also have no idea that about 70% of Israelis are Arab Jews from Arab or descended from Arab countries. And that most present day Israelis have at least one grandparent from the original Palestinian Jewish population.
And most Ashkenazi are descended from people who had to flee for obvious reasons. Hitler was the one who forced many ashkenazi to palestine. And the grand mufti supported hitler at the time.
If Israel wasn't stealing land and murdering, I think antisemetism in the region would drop sharply
It's about the criminal Israel regime and it's policies. The sooner BiBi does time the better for everyone.0 -
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ILoveYourVibes wrote: »Soros is a man who places people before money every time. He doesn't care about his image.
I am always HIGHLY amused by people complaining this rich man spends all of his money on leftist politicians and charity.
Do you think he doing it for himself?? this big business man who throws money at people like Ocasio Cortez???
This big business man who throws money at muslims refugees.This big Business man who threw money at poor black students going to university in Apartheid South Africa.This rich Business man who threw 100 million to Russian Universities.
Yes this man who throws money like water towards education and Newspapers its HIM who is an enemy of democracy.
He even funded the yes side for our abortion ref.
He throws money like WATER at human rights in places he has never even BEEN. He throws money like WATER at politicians who want to tax the bejaysus out of him!
Yet its purely for his own selfish ends. And do you know what ..YOU ARE RIGHT it is. He does all this ...because he wants to. For his own selfish reasons.
And that is why he is own of my personal heroes.
I mean, I have a different take on rich people using their money to subvert democracy than you
But the point is, why does being Jewish somehow make him immune to criticism for it? Are we not allowed to say "Rich people using their money to sway democratic election - especially when they do it in foreign countries whose internal politics are none of their damn business - are w@nkers, and f*ck those people whether they happen to be Jewish or not"? That's what I find disturbing about this argument. People acting like hatred of Soros from the right makes them anti-semitic, as if he's never done anything which the right could find legitimately democratically repulsive, is bizarre. He happens to be Jewish, true. That's a completely irrelevant and unrelated issue to the other issue, which is that he happens to use his money to influence politics outside his own country. That is also true, and that is why people on the right wing despise him. If he was French, or American, or Muslim, or Christian, or black, or Asian, or dreadlocked, or balding - none of these factors would make the right hate him more or less than they do. They hate him because of what he does, not who he is. Hell, Jared Kushner is Jewish and the right wing love him.
Why is it that when someone Jewish does something political objectionable, such as using money to influence foreign elections, people aren't allowed to criticise that without being accused of doing so with an identity politics angle? Am I suddenly Francophobic (that's hatred of Frenchies as opposed to hatred of Franco and hisantics in Spain) for despising Nicholas Sarkozy over his attempts to interfere in Irish politics? I have literally never been accused of such even though I have spoken extensively of my hatred for the man on this and many other forums. But no one is allowed to feel about George Soros as I do about Nicholas Sarkozy, because those people must hate him out of bigotry and not because his political activities are incredibly scummy.
Do ye not see why this makes the whole question of anti-semitism very difficult to fully take seriously? People are constantly conflating spats entirely politicsl in nature, which coincidentally involve one or more Jewish individuals, with hatred specifically of Jewish individuals. That's no different to supporters of George Bush accusing the world and its mother of being Anti-American because many of us thought George Bush was a grade A twat who should be told to f*ck himself at every opportunity.
Does anyone actually have a rebuttal to any of this? It really perplexes me how this isn't called out more often.0 -
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hatrickpatrick wrote: »I mean, I have a different take on rich people using their money to subvert democracy than you But the point is, why does being Jewish somehow make him immune to criticism for it?
You can criticize Soros for what he does, not what he is. Is someone waving Soros' religion in your face when you do?
Of course.Are we not allowed to say "Rich people using their money to sway democratic election - especially when they do it in foreign countries whose internal politics are none of their damn business - are w@nkers, and f*ck those people whether they happen to be Jewish or not"?
Not even slightly. Antisemitism is hatred of Jews because they're Jews. It's a very serious problem worldwide and the whole point of this thread is whether it's rising in Europe.
Do ye not see why this makes the whole question of anti-semitism very difficult to fully take seriously?
Feel free to criticize George Soros for what he does.People are constantly conflating spats entirely political in nature, which coincidentally involve one or more Jewish individuals, with hatred specifically of Jewish individuals. That's no different to supporters of George Bush accusing the world and its mother of being Anti-American because many of us thought George Bush was a grade A twat who should be told to f*ck himself at every opportunity.
Does anyone actually have a rebuttal to any of this? It really perplexes me how this isn't called out more often.0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »I mean, I have a different take on rich people using their money to subvert democracy than you But the point is, why does being Jewish somehow make him immune to criticism for it? Are we not allowed to say "Rich people using their money to sway democratic election - especially when they do it in foreign countries whose internal politics are none of their damn business - are w@nkers, and f*ck those people whether they happen to be Jewish or not"? That's what I find disturbing about this argument. People acting like hatred of Soros from the right makes them anti-semitic, as if he's never done anything which the right could find legitimately democratically repulsive, is bizarre. He happens to be Jewish, true. That's a completely irrelevant and unrelated issue to the other issue, which is that he happens to use his money to influence politics outside his own country. That is also true, and that is why people on the right wing despise him. If he was French, or American, or Muslim, or Christian, or black, or Asian, or dreadlocked, or balding - none of these factors would make the right hate him more or less than they do. They hate him because of what he does, not who he is. Hell, Jared Kushner is Jewish and the right wing love him.
Why is it that when someone Jewish does something political objectionable, such as using money to influence foreign elections, people aren't allowed to criticise that without being accused of doing so with an identity politics angle? Am I suddenly Francophobic (that's hatred of Frenchies as opposed to hatred of Franco and hisantics in Spain) for despising Nicholas Sarkozy over his attempts to interfere in Irish politics? I have literally never been accused of such even though I have spoken extensively of my hatred for the man on this and many other forums. But no one is allowed to feel about George Soros as I do about Nicholas Sarkozy, because those people must hate him out of bigotry and not because his political activities are incredibly scummy.
Do ye not see why this makes the whole question of anti-semitism very difficult to fully take seriously? People are constantly conflating spats entirely politicsl in nature, which coincidentally involve one or more Jewish individuals, with hatred specifically of Jewish individuals. That's no different to supporters of George Bush accusing the world and its mother of being Anti-American because many of us thought George Bush was a grade A twat who should be told to f*ck himself at every opportunity.
Does anyone actually have a rebuttal to any of this? It really perplexes me how this isn't called out more often.
It’s a strange logic where putting money into politics campaigns for democratic changes is somehow “subverting democracy”.
Never had you down as one for right wing conspiracy theories HP.
The conspiracy theories about Soros aren’t anti-Semitic because they claim he’s providing funding to political campaigns - they’re anti-Semitic because they always include countless anti-Semitic tropes that have been circulating for centuries. (And also because plenty of them also try to perpetuate lies about collaborating with the nazis).0 -
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blackwhite wrote: »It’s a strange logic where putting money into politics campaigns for democratic changes is somehow “subverting democracy”.
Never had you down as one for right wing conspiracy theories HP.
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact. I have a problem with foreigners putting money into political campaigns of other countries, and to be honest I have a problem with the whole concept of money in politics as a whole. I find it corrosive and indeed a subversion of democracy - democratic results shouldn't be swayed by which side has more cash to burn on marketing and PR. I'd be fully in favour of limits on political spending, advertising, etc to create a level playing field for political causes with access to money and those without it.
Not sure how any of that constitutes a conspiracy theory. It's no more a conspiracy theory than the widely acknowledged spending by American conservatives groups on online advertising opposing the Repeal movement during last year's referendum, bankrolling the Iona muppets and so on. It irked me for two reasons - firstly, because they're foreigners trying to influence an Irish election. Secondly, because as I said before, I do not believe that political results and activism should be so closely tied to which side has more cash to burn.
If that's somehow a right wing conspiracy theory, then...
The conspiracy theories about Soros aren’t anti-Semitic because they claim he’s providing funding to political campaigns - they’re anti-Semitic because they always include countless anti-Semitic tropes that have been circulating for centuries. (And also because plenty of them also try to perpetuate lies about collaborating with the nazis).
I'm not suggesting that there are no anti-semites who use Soros as a tool for spreading their bigotry, of course there are. But allegations of anti-semitism now seem to equate any criticism of Soros with anti-semitism, and that's what I have a problem with. As far as I'm concerned, Soros is an undemocratic piece of sh!t who doesn't respect either political fairness or national sovereignty. I would make the same claim about any incredibly rich person pouring money into political causes in foreign countries.
The fact that apparently one cannot hold these views without being automatically bracketed in with the genuine alt-right nutters is what pisses me off, and you've actually gone some way towards proving my point by alleging that I'm somehow buying into "right wing conspiracy theories" by taking issue with Soros' political activities.
I'm not ok with election results being decided by whose side the super rich come down on and how they can use their money to influence the result. I do regard that as subverting democracy. Hardly a controversial political opinion to take - in the States, opposition to money in politics forms pretty much the entire basis for Bernie Sanders' considerably popular candidacy for the upcoming presidential election, and formed the basis for his campaign in the last one.
And, irony of ironies, Sanders himself is Jewish. 0 -
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