Jordan Peterson interview on C4

20Cent · 19-02-2020 1:55pm

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Why are you obsessed with athletes in Ireland, specifically? This is not an Ireland-specific concern. The increasing number of biological men competing against women in athletic competitions around the world is widely documented.

And sports bodies are working on ways to deal with it.
Simply banning trans people from sports should not be an option.

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I already told you that I don't believe it's possible for someone to "assume" a different gender — whether by hormonal, surgical, or legal means.

Science and the medical community disagree.

19-02-2020 1:57pm

the first line of that video is 'i've been told i'm transphobic for liking vagina. who i date is not up for debate'. also followed by 'trans women are women'
seems to be a clickbait title. top comment replies from trans women in full agreement with the message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dumQfzcrOzk

exactly the same message that got her deplatformed from pride, it looks like

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 1:59pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

We live in Ireland. We're on an Irish forum.

In case you haven't noticed, you're on a thread discussing a Canadian psychology professor's appearance on a British news show. I'm not sure why you think this discussion should be about Ireland?

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 2:10pm

20Cent wrote: »

Who is requiring you to say things you don't believe?

trans activist. and it is in this that they diverge from gay rights campaigners. gay rights was live and let live. trans rights is live and let live AND you need to validate someone's dysphoria through language and access to women's spaces, sports etc....can people really not see the difference here?

CtevenSrowder · 19-02-2020 2:10pm

20Cent wrote: »

You clearly have no idea what the topic of conversation is about.

I think it's you that doesn't.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 2:14pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

trans activist. and it is in this that they diverge from gay rights campaigners. gay rights was live and let live. trans rights is live and let live AND you need to validate someone's dysphoria through language and access to women's spaces, sports etc....can people really not see the difference here?

How are they forcing you?

19-02-2020 2:17pm

this is the blaire white i'm referring to, some good videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsxK4_FKfc0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPBLyb8H_iE

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 2:31pm

20Cent wrote: »

How are they forcing you?

call it coercion. threats to my livelihood if i dont comply. if i were a "terf" on twitter threats of rape and murder. if i were in the uk visits from the police to "check my thinking". banishment from the left if i were JK Rowling.

for me its about truth.

if a biological male says/thinks/feels that they are female - does that in fact make them a woman? a woman the same as someone born with a cervix and xx chromosomes?

i'm sorry but its a bridge too far. i cant force myself to believe this any more than i could force myself to believe in the resurrection or transsubsansiation.

B0jangles · 19-02-2020 2:36pm

bluewolf wrote: »

this is the blaire white i'm referring to, some good videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsxK4_FKfc0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPBLyb8H_iE

Isn't, or wasn't Blaire White a very vocal Trump-supporter and anti-feminist? I can't really respect someone who is willing to throw the rest of her community under a bus because she thinks she can make a good living pandering to people who hate and fear every trans person*

*except her

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 2:39pm

B0jangles wrote: »

hate and fear every trans person

so it's either you are either fully on board with all aspects of the transgender movement or you fear and hate all trans people?

19-02-2020 2:40pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

for me its about truth.

It's about the subjective versus objective nature of reality..

They're pulling you into their solipsism..

20Cent · 19-02-2020 2:40pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

call it coercion. threats to my livelihood if i dont comply. if i were a "terf" on twitter threats of rape and murder. if i were in the uk visits from the police to "check my thinking". banishment from the left if i were JK Rowling.

for me its about truth.

if a biological male says/thinks/feels that they are female - does that in fact make them a woman? a woman the same as someone born with a cervix and xx chromosomes?

i'm sorry but its a bridge too far. i cant force myself to believe this any more than i could force myself to believe in the resurrection or transsubsansiation.

Out of interest have you ever met a trans person?
Why are you so afraid of someone you are very unlikely to even meet?
Even if you do meet one just walk away and don't interact with them no problem.

Seem to feel very victimized.

B0jangles · 19-02-2020 2:41pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

so it's either you are either fully on board with all aspects of the transgender movement or you fear and hate all trans people?

No, I am talking about the people who actually really do hate and fear trans people. There are plenty of them around the place.

edit: I just reread my last post and if it comes across that I am saying Bluewolf hates and fears every trans person because she posted a couple of Blaire White videos, that was not my intent at all.

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 2:45pm

20Cent wrote: »

Out of interest have you ever met a trans person?
Why are you so afraid of someone you are very unlikely to even meet?
Even if you do meet one just walk away and don't interact with them no problem.

Seem to feel very victimized.

i work along side a trans person and I think they are sound. everyone in the workplace avoids politics/religion as an unspoken rule and i avoid using any pronouns towards this individual where possible but will use their preferred pronoun when necessary in order to keep my job. everyone walks on eggshells around this person which must make them uncomfortable.

i'm no more a victim than anyone else .

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 2:46pm

B0jangles wrote: »

No, I am talking about the people who actually really do hate and fear trans people. There are plenty of them around the place.

fair enough

20Cent · 19-02-2020 2:49pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i work along side a trans person and I think they are sound. everyone in the workplace avoids politics/religion as an unspoken rule and i avoid using any pronouns towards this individual where possible but will use their preferred pronoun when necessary in order to keep my job. everyone walks on eggshells around this person which must make them uncomfortable.

i'm no more a victim than anyone else .

So why do you think they are trans then?

If they are sound what's the problem using their preferred pronouns.
Like that's all you have to do, that's a big deal!!
All workplaces have policies about employees interacting with each other.

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 2:53pm

20Cent wrote: »

So why do you think they are trans then?

If they are sound what's the problem using their preferred pronouns.
Like that's all you have to do, that's a big deal!!
All workplaces have policies about employees interacting with each other.

i think they're trans because they used to be called John and now they're called Mary* and Mary looks an awful lot like John

not real names

sbsquarepants · 19-02-2020 2:56pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i think they're trans because they used to be called John and now they're called Mary* and Mary looks an awful lot like John

not real names

Could they be brother and sister?:D:D

Gynoid · 19-02-2020 3:04pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's an urge humans demonstrate. The desire to halt change is not new. It's an old story, think accepting gays and gay marriage: people push for change and others push back against it. Those opposed to he change will warn of all the terrible consequences of the change. Then the change happens without all the terrible consequences. Those opposed to the change pretend they were never really opposed to the change. They don't acknowledge the were wrong to oppose the change because the terrible consequences never materialised, they move on to opposing the next change.

Does anyone remember the opposition to gay marriage? The warnings about all the terrible consequences and knock on effects?

Some people are just terrified of change and they will find any old reason to oppose changes. Peterson is marketing his products to those people and it's a very successful sales strategy. Fox News is a whole entertainment news station dedicated to the sake audience.

Fox news will oppose the topic of change of the day and then move on to the next topic. The market exists and people design products to sell to that market.

It will be a cold day in Hell, dude, the day I accept the change that babies can be said to be born without a sex, as Dawn Butler, a leading labour politician in the UK, just said on national TV.
It will also be chilly down below the day when I accept the change whereby violent male bodied sex offenders should legitimately be imprisoned with females, as Lisa Nandy, aspiring leader of the UK Labour party just vowed.
I will never accept the removal of words like mother and woman from biological reality, or that men give birth or that women sire a child.
I will never accept the medicalisation of young children with pubertal blockers and cross sex hormones as young teens which is a priority of trans activists - AFFIRMATION, they cry. Hormones that shrivel their uteruses, retard penile growth, lower their bone density, increase risk of cancer and heart disease, retard IQ and frontal lobe development etc etc. The devil will be wearing thermals the day I accept such changes and I hope there will be younger people who will hold the line of reason long after I am gone.

Gynoid · 19-02-2020 3:17pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

call it coercion. threats to my livelihood if i dont comply. if i were a "terf" on twitter threats of rape and murder. if i were in the uk visits from the police to "check my thinking". banishment from the left if i were JK Rowling.

for me its about truth.

if a biological male says/thinks/feels that they are female - does that in fact make them a woman? a woman the same as someone born with a cervix and xx chromosomes?

i'm sorry but its a bridge too far. i cant force myself to believe this any more than i could force myself to believe in the resurrection or transsubsansiation.

A professor at Oxford university has to have security because trans activists have made credible threats against her because of her supposed transphobia . Another thing that "never happens"...

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/education-51248684

20Cent · 19-02-2020 3:21pm

Gynoid wrote: »

It will be a cold day in Hell, dude, the day I accept the change that babies can be said to be born without a sex, as Dawn Butler, a leading labour politician in the UK, just said on national TV.

They already are.

Gynoid wrote: »

It will also be chilly down below the day when I accept the change whereby violent male bodied sex offenders should legitimately be imprisoned with females, as Lisa Nandy, aspiring leader of the UK Labour party just vowed.

They aren't

Gynoid wrote: »

I will never accept the removal of words like mother and woman from biological reality,

No one is suggesting that.

Gynoid wrote: »

or that men give birth or that women sire a child.

It happens anyway

Gynoid wrote: »

I will never accept the medicalisation of young children with pubertal blockers and cross sex hormones as young teens which is a priority of trans activists - AFFIRMATION, they cry. Hormones that shrivel their uteruses, retard penile growth, lower their bone density, increase risk of cancer and heart disease, retard IQ and frontal lobe development etc etc. The devil will be wearing thermals the day I accept such changes and I hope there will be younger people who will hold the line of reason long after I am gone.

Maybe leave that to the experts.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 3:22pm

Gynoid wrote: »

A professor at Oxford university has to have security because trans activists have made credible threats against her because of her supposed transphobia . Another thing that "never happens"...

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/education-51248684

Unreal.

Prof Todd said the threats come from some campaigners who believe her views on the need to protect women's spaces, such as single-sex refuges, from people who self-identify as women but are anatomically male are unacceptable.

The academic said that she has witnessed "quite antagonistic" and "quite confrontational" protests outside women's rights meetings she has spoken at in the past.

So much for the tolerant, compassionate society these people claim to represent.

Gynoid · 19-02-2020 3:42pm

20Cent wrote: »

They already are.

They aren't

No one is suggesting that.

It happens anyway

Maybe leave that to the experts.

You are incorrect on all of these replies.

19-02-2020 3:56pm

Gynoid wrote: »

You are incorrect on all of these replies.

https://i.redd.it/2u8ojszs4dh41.png

20Cent · 19-02-2020 4:22pm

bluewolf wrote: »

https://i.redd.it/2u8ojszs4dh41.png

What's your point?

20Cent · 19-02-2020 4:23pm

Gynoid wrote: »

You are incorrect on all of these replies.

Excellent rebuttal.

I don't believe in people with red hair. See them sometimes but don't believe they actually have red hair.
The argument is that stupid.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 4:24pm

20Cent wrote: »

Since when do people have a right to exclude others because they are uncomfortable with their bodies? Should butch looking women, old women, unattractive women be banned from changing rooms as well?

No, because non-feminine women still read as women. It’s easy to tell by the way somebody moves at the very least. And of course there’s no problem with older ladies. And none of them are packing.

An outspoken critic of transwomen in women’s sports is a good example of a non-conforming woman but there’s no mistake - Martina Navratilova is all woman.

Gynoid · 19-02-2020 4:32pm

20Cent wrote: »

Excellent rebuttal.

I don't believe in people with red hair. See them sometimes but don't believe they actually have red hair.
The argument is that stupid.

You are still incorrect on all points.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 4:33pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I'd consider myself left and I'm a member of the LGBTQ community so you'd think transgender issues would play a larger part in my life than the average person but honestly they don't. The only time transgender issues become an issue are when the right tries to turn them into second class citizens. And let's be real about it, if in some alternate reality trans people didn't exist or were outlawed then you can bet the same people on this thread attacking trans people are the same people who would then turn their attention to gays and lesbians because people who are bigoted need a minority group to attack.

Well, I’m likely in that group on this thread by your estimates and I have supported gay rights my whole life, well, since I was old enough to know what gay was. I’m also left wing. Why do you think it’s all right wing driven? Look at the ructions in the Labour Party in the UK at the moment.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 4:36pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, I’m likely in that group on this thread by your estimates and I have supported gay rights my whole life, well, since I was old enough to know what gay was. I’m also left wing. Why do you think it’s all right wing driven? Look at the ructions in the Labour Party in the UK at the moment.

OK then in a non confrontational way as somebody who has supported gay rights and who probably would consider himself a gay ally, where do you stand on trans rights?

Quick edit: I'm not trying to lure you into a trap with the question, I'm genuinely curious coming at it from an angle of if you're liberal enough to have fought for gay rights, I'd just like to know why are trans rights a step too far for you.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 4:37pm

Gynoid wrote: »

You are still incorrect on all points.

Well on the first one. Some babies are born trans. We know this so the gender they were given at birth is incorrect.

In prison they have rules about transferring trans prisoners and also how violent prisoners are dealt with.

Your other points are equally uninformed.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 4:38pm

20Cent wrote: »

Have only met one trans person in my life.
This was female to male transman.
He talked about things that are so normal for most people that we don't even think about them.

Going to the bathroom for instance. While transitioning he was growing stubble and dressed male. If he went into the ladies and someone was there they might be offended and tell him to get out. If he goes into the men's and someone realises he could be in trouble as well. He used to spend hours in college holding in a p because going to the toilet was so stressful.
That's just one aspect of life then there is everything else.

To help people like this we don't even have to do anything.
Just treat them the same as everyone else.
Nothing could be easier.
Seems to be too much to ask for some though.

That has also happened to girls at a school in England who did not want to use the gender neutral facilities. These young girls did not want to share with boys and held it in all instead. Does your compassion extend to them?

And it’s interesting that the toilet fears of transgender people are being embraced by you whilst you handwave away the worries of women on the same subject.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 4:42pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That has also happened to girls at a school in England who did not want to use the gender neutral facilities. These young girls did not want to share with boys and held it in all instead. Does your compassion extend to them?

And it’s interesting that the toilet fears of transgender people are being embraced by you whilst you handwave away the worries of women on the same subject.

Don't blame them not wanting to share toiles with boys.

Discussion has been about trans people.

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 4:42pm

20Cent wrote: »

Well on the first one. Some babies are born trans. We know this

sorry to be pedantic but some babies may be born with gender dysphoria, babies are not "trans". Transition is one possible outcome in dealing with the dysphoria.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 4:43pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

For all their ranting and raving you know for a fact they've probably never even spoken to a trans person in their lives. And if they did, they'd be far too cowardly to say what they say here to that person's face. That's the life of a person who subscribes to this far right philosophy, fear of someone different to themselves and cowardly posting about such stuff anonymously on internet forums in the guise of sticking up for womens rights.

Again, sorry to cut into your fever dreams about people opposing issues to do with transpeople but I have. I outlined it elsewhere that I worked with a man who became a woman. We had changing room to work in a certain part of the facility. She used the women’s changing rooms and it was fine BUT this was a very controlled situation. We all knew her. This is different from public spaces.

And I stick up for women’s rights because I’m a woman.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 4:45pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Again, sorry to cut into your fever dreams about people opposing issues to do with transpeople but I have. I outlined it elsewhere that I worked with a man who became a woman. We had changing room to work in a certain part of the facility. She used the women’s changing rooms and it was fine BUT this was a very controlled situation. We all knew her. This is different from public spaces.

OK, so say somebody has legally gone about changing their gender status (something which you'll know takes years and is very difficult) they've had operations, they've physically assimilated into their correct gender, would you have an issue with that person using that gender's changing room?

20Cent · 19-02-2020 4:46pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

sorry to pedantic but surely some babies may be born with gender dysphoria, babies are not "trans".

Don't know the scientific terminology but some babies born with a penis go on to become women and vice versa. What Dawn Butler said is correct, but a tiny number.

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 4:47pm

20Cent wrote: »

What Dawn Butler said is correct, but a tiny number.

Ok...so you agree that babies are born without sex?

19-02-2020 4:49pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK, so say somebody has legally gone about changing their gender status (something which you'll know takes years and is very difficult) they've had operations, they've physically assimilated into their correct gender, would you have an issue with that person using that gender's changing room?

We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form

20Cent · 19-02-2020 4:51pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Ok...so you agree that babies are born without sex?

Think gender is a more appropriate word than she used.
Clearly they are unless you think trans people are having all those operations for the craic.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 4:55pm

bluewolf wrote: »

We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form

https://www.thejournal.ie/trans-transgender-ireland-transitioning-health-hse-doctors-surgery-4759414-Aug2019/

Reading this and in my own experience with friends who have, or a couple who are currently, transitioning I don't believe it is a simply experience at all.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 4:56pm

bluewolf wrote: »

We have self id in Ireland. It doesn't take years nor is it difficult, you send off a form

It's been the case for the last 5 years.
230 people have used it.

The idea that loads of men will use it to go into women's spaces if demonstrably false.

19-02-2020 4:56pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/trans-transgender-ireland-transitioning-health-hse-doctors-surgery-4759414-Aug2019/

Reading this and in my own experience with friends who have, or a couple who are currently, transitioning I don't believe it is a simply experience at all.

You said legally changing takes years. We have self id
Medically changing is another story

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 4:57pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK, so say somebody has legally gone about changing their gender status (something which you'll know takes years and is very difficult) they've had operations, they've physically assimilated into their correct gender, would you have an issue with that person using that gender's changing room?

I’d more on board though sorry to say, assimilation can never be complete. The big giveaway for me is physical movements. But yeah, if they were clearly dedicated to the transition, I’d be on board. Self ID being the only requirement? No, just no.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 4:58pm

bluewolf wrote: »

You said legally changing takes years. We have self id
Medically changing is another story

But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.

19-02-2020 5:01pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.

No, male sex offender in the dochas centre

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261.amp

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:02pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’d more on board though sorry to say, assimilation can never be complete. The big giveaway for me is physical movements. But yeah, if they were clearly dedicated to the transition, I’d be on board. Self ID being the only requirement? No, just no.

OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 5:02pm

B0jangles wrote: »

I am so disappointed to find out that posters I liked and respected are so proudly transphobic.

I’ve learned from this thread that the word ‘transphobic’ now rolls off my back.

Bring it.

suicide_circus · 19-02-2020 5:03pm

20Cent wrote: »

Think gender is a more appropriate word than she used.
Clearly they are unless you think trans people are having all those operations for the craic.

ok babies are born one sex or the other. Intersex babies can have traits from both sexes.

No I don't think people transition for the craic. I also don't think that the transitioning process makes the person the other sex. It may mimic some of the features of the other sex but that's as far as the technology can go at present.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 5:04pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But our prison system is still set up whereby gender is determined by natal sex in Ireland.

Untrue.

Currently, a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner is being held in Limerick women’s prison.

This is understood to be the first time that an inmate, registered as male at birth, has been housed in a women’s prison in Ireland.

When before the court last July, the prisoner was in possession of a gender recognition certificate.

It is understood that the prisoner was assigned a high level of monitoring after being convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

The prisoner is accompanied by two officers at all times while in the common areas of the detention facility.

“The Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners into custody, into whatever prison that a judge orders,” Minister Charlie Flanagan said in response to a parliamentary question from Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín, on 12 September.

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Comments