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Tenants made multiple changes to the property

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    #62
    skallywag
    Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭skallywag


    wexie wrote: »
    ...In most countries when you rent somewhere you're renting a home, to live long term...

    True, many renters in mainland Europe for instance will stay for many years in their rented accommodation, and will often make changes such as described in this thread. The owner will have no issue with this in the majority of cases, as a valued tenant who has a real interest in the property being their long term home is naturally something they want to have.

    The issue in play here though is the fact that the owner was not informed before the change was made. I'm open to correction, but I know of no rental market in any country where one could make some of these changes without informing the owner up front?


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    #63
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Anybody thinking they are ideal tenants and that making changes to a property without permission is crazy.

    Had a tenant put up shelves in a freshly plastered wall and I really wasn't impressed and asked him to inform me if he wanted to do anything else. The shelves were cheap pine shelves and he put them up crooked. He then painted the place which had just been painted before he moved in with all the gloss work done perfectly. He did a terrible job.

    He did ask for payment for his "improvements" and was upset when I said he would be paying for the damage he did. Then he was going to fix everything. He pulled the shelves off the wall slapped pollyfiller in the holes he made and painted over them with different coloured paint than the walls.

    In the end I had to get the place redecorated, a plumber and an electrician down to fix everything.

    The key change is simply not allowed. Removing appliances is theft. Adding a woodburing stove is a potential danger and not certified. What happens when they leave are they going to return everything to the way it was.

    People remove the strangest things when leaving. Had all the fuses and light bulbs removed, door handles, furniture, floor boards etc... The guy I mentioned took sockets he had added and left the bare wires exposed.

    You can talk all you like about European standards but they come with a lot of regulations on the tenant that we don't have here. They also have insurance for making such changes that cause damage to the property or other tenants.

    I wouldn't want to kick them out but after 6 months they have more rights and they have way overstepped already I would be very wary of keeping them. I would certainly be inspecting the property very regularly.


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    #64
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    i'm not a landlord but rented before.The house was in good condition and everything worked but were it not the case and we needed anything sorted our landlord would have been the first port of call.We wouldn't have dreamed of doing anything ourselves though we were four strangers and wouldn't really have considered it our home as we all usually went back to our parents at the weekend so maybe a different situation.But still I think you should have been asked, what they did went too far.The cooker obviously had to be wired in what if it wasn't done properly and there was a fire.The wood burner also.And changing the locks I'm assuming the front door also? I think you need to sit down and have a chat with them and make it clear that changes like this cannot be made without your consultation in the interest of their own safety also ie fire hazard.


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    #65
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    What did the lease say about changes?

    I would ask him to pay to have the work inspected.
    The tap could potentially cause big damage if done wrongly, the new appliances need to be installed correctly and the stove is also lethally dangerous if not done to standard.

    I would get that done within the week and my forward moves would depend on the outcome.

    If everything is to standard I'd get in writing that any future changes will be agreed in writing in advance and carry out quarterly visits or whatever the max allowed is.

    If it's not to standard, eviction.


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    #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Changing the lock alone would trigger an immediate notice of eviction from me but then they also made changes to the property which makes it all even worse. I would not entertain any lock changes in my property, I’ve never heard of it happening between tenancies and also never heard of a previous tenant coming back and robbing a place, it’s fantasy stuff.

    They have no rights to do anything to the property without first asking and even if they asked I would not allow it as you don’t know the quality of work, the quality of fixtures+fittings they will get, the safety of the work etc. that’s all on top of the fact they will very likely try to use it against you at some point in future.

    Get them out quick before they reach 6 months and you are stuck with them for 6 years.


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    #67
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    If, as you say, he's getting it for below market rate, do you think he might be subletting it for profit / airbnbing it?


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    #68
    jamesbondings
    Registered Users Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭jamesbondings


    GarIT wrote: »
    Same as the above post but you'd be out on your ear for wrecking the house with that trash and I'd be using the deposit to put carpet back in the rest all seems positive though.

    Unless you were willing to add whatever it costs to get the house recarpeted when you leave to the deposit.

    Hahaha I was. We were expecting our first and were only doing in on the off chance they had asthma. Carpet was old and smelly. But if the landlord said we have to put carpets back in from the deposit then that's fine. We had two years in a nice comfortable home.


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    #69
    dennyk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭dennyk


    bobbyss wrote: »
    But what if the landlord objected to the Colour? Imagine landlord had it just painted it tastefully and new tenants painted it again to suit themselves without permission. If landlord wanted to rent again it's another expense?

    The landlord can't unreasonably withhold permission for the tenant to repaint and redecorate, but they can require the tenant to return the property to its original state including paint colours, etc. at their expense. Tenants are required to ask permission before painting, though, and of course if they cause any damage by painting or decorating, they'd also be responsible for the cost to repair it.


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    #70
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    jamesbondings wrote: »
    Hahaha I was. We were expecting our first and were only doing in on the off chance they had asthma. Carpet was old and smelly. But if the landlord said we have to put carpets back in from the deposit then that's fine. We had two years in a nice comfortable home.

    That's reasonable then IMO, would be hugely different if you took out good carpet because you didn't like it and weren't willing to put it back to the way it was.


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    #71
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    dennyk wrote: »
    The landlord can't unreasonably withhold permission for the tenant to repaint and redecorate, but they can require the tenant to return the property to its original state including paint colours, etc. at their expense. Tenants are required to ask permission before painting, though, and of course if they cause any damage by painting or decorating, they'd also be responsible for the cost to repair it.

    A landlord does not have to allow anybody to redecorate their property. I don't know why you think they would have to allow it. If I pay a professional to paint the property they cannot repaint and claim it is the same standard.

    There is no way a tenant will paint to a professional standard or ire a professional to return it back when leaving.


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    #72
    dennyk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭dennyk


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    A landlord does not have to allow anybody to redecorate their property. I don't know why you think they would have to allow it.

    Because the law says so. Residential Tenancies Act 2004 Revised, Part 2, Chapter 2, Section 16, Subsection (l) "Obligations of Tenants":
    ...
    ( l) not alter or improve the dwelling without the written consent of the landlord which consent the landlord—
    (i) in case the alteration or improvement consists only of repairing, painting and decorating, or any of those things, may not unreasonably withhold,

    (ii) in any other case, may, in his or her discretion, withhold,
    ...


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    #73
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    dennyk wrote: »
    Because the law says so. Residential Tenancies Act 2004 Revised, Part 2, Chapter 2, Section 16, Subsection (l) "Obligations of Tenants":

    You are ignoring the word unreasonably. Sure the landlord can't unreasonably withhold permission, but they can reasonably do it if the tenant is suggesting using someone other than a certain standard of professional.


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Adam Square Sliver wrote: »
    Changing the lock alone would trigger an immediate notice of eviction from me but then they also made changes to the property which makes it all even worse. I would not entertain any lock changes in my property, I’ve never heard of it happening between tenancies and also never heard of a previous tenant coming back and robbing a place, it’s fantasy stuff.

    They have no rights to do anything to the property without first asking and even if they asked I would not allow it as you don’t know the quality of work, the quality of fixtures+fittings they will get, the safety of the work etc. that’s all on top of the fact they will very likely try to use it against you at some point in future.

    Get them out quick before they reach 6 months and you are stuck with them for 6 years.

    I have seen lots of your posts on here, I hope you never become a landlord, for sure not mine!!
    Oh, & yes previous tenants do come back, regularly & do damage or burgle their old home. Happens a lot actually.
    The landlord should really change Locks between tenancies, shouldn't even be left to the tenant.


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    #75
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    GarIT wrote: »
    You are ignoring the word unreasonably. Sure the landlord can't unreasonably withhold permission, but they can reasonably do it if the tenant is suggesting using someone other than a certain standard of professional.

    The word is in his original post.


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    #76
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    dennyk wrote: »
    Because the law says so. Residential Tenancies Act 2004 Revised, Part 2, Chapter 2, Section 16, Subsection (l) "Obligations of Tenants":

    Fine, the standard I require for them to paint will be they hire a professional to both paint the colour they want and then to paint it back to the original colour.

    Not unreasonable given what they rent is a professionally painted property. They are the conditions and when stated strangely no tenant agrees to that. I have a budget and development plan extra costs go to the tenant and that should be the case. Like in Europe rental terms.


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    #77
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Ive changed the locks in every rental property I've ever been in, always with permission but its quite reasonable to change the locks with a new tenancy.

    As with all the rest, the landscaping and painting is perfectly ok in my book. The appliances - as long as they've kept the old ones secure and dry or are planning to leave you with the new ones when the tenancy ends for free then no issue.

    The outside tap and stove permission would have been great, id probably write them a letter specifying that they must have permission in writing and perhaps specify that no more works that involve boring holes in walls etc.. are to be done.

    Aslong as they don't plan on asking you for any money or ripping out anything that will leave a hole in the wall when they leave then id say its fine.

    You should however have a key.


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    #78
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Ive changed the locks in every rental property I've ever been in, always with permission but its quite reasonable to change the locks with a new tenancy.

    As with all the rest, the landscaping and painting is perfectly ok in my book. The appliances - as long as they've kept the old ones secure and dry or are planning to leave you with the new ones when the tenancy ends for free then no issue.

    The outside tap and stove permission would have been great, id probably write them a letter specifying that they must have permission in writing and perhaps specify that no more works that involve boring holes in walls etc.. are to be done.

    Aslong as they don't plan on asking you for any money or ripping out anything that will leave a hole in the wall when they leave then id say its fine.

    You should however have a key.
    I change the locks between tenancies so there is no reason for them to further change the locks.I tell them when they move in. I would never accept a tenant changing locks


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    #79
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    I change the locks between tenancies so there is no reason for them to further change the locks.I tell them when they move in. I would never accept a tenant changing locks

    you're one of the few who do, obviously if already changed thats all good then , but perhaps op had not changed them.


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    #80
    sunnysoutheast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,072 ✭✭✭sunnysoutheast


    Fitting a stove and messing around with the plumbing and appliances - all of which can kill if done badly - in a rented property without permission or notice?

    The mind boggles.

    Changing the locks without the very obvious step of giving the landlord/agent a key should be a massive red flag. I appreciate they have handed a copy over now. Have you checked it works?


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    #81
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    While I've never personally heard of an old tenant coming back and fleecing the place, my cousin was renting a place a few years ago and within the first few days of settling in, the previous tenant let herself in and turned off the alarm while he was in the kitchen.

    Apparently she thought she might have left something behind but clearly had no qualms about trespassing.

    It's not just the former tenants you have to worry about as well, it's any neighbour, cousin, boyfriend/girlfriend or anyone else over the years who may still have a copy.

    There is absolutely no way I would accept living in a house where the locks aren't new and a landlord refuses to change them or let me change them.


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    How do lock changers manage to survive in a house share? Far more people will have had keys over the years and changing the lock is never an option if there is a regular turn over of tenant.

    When I rented I only ever lived in houseshares and in each one there were multiple changes in people living there in each one in my time there.

    As I said earlier if I was the op I would have a notice of eviction given to the tenants the second I got wind of their completely unreasonable and very much not allowed actions. I’d be be keeping as much of their deposit too to cover putting things back as they were.


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Adam Square Sliver wrote: »
    How do lock changers manage to survive in a house share? Far more people will have had keys over the years and changing the lock is never an option if there is a regular turn over of tenant.

    Well to be fair, most house sharers are young short term tenants.
    Anyone renting an entire house/apartmemnt for themselves &/or their family would usually consider security of their home higher then the average room renter.


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    #84
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Adam Square Sliver wrote: »
    How do lock changers manage to survive in a house share? Far more people will have had keys over the years and changing the lock is never an option if there is a regular turn over of tenant.

    Well to be fair, most house sharers are young short term tenants.
    Anyone renting an entire house/apartmemnt for themselves &/or their family would usually consider security of their home higher then the average room renter.

    When I was living in a house share in Oz I just bought a decent basta lock from the hardware store and put it in the door.

    Everything valuable kept in there.

    As you say though, security is less of a priority when you're young and probably don't have anything worth stealing anyway.

    Family homes are where it counts.


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    #85
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    troyzer wrote: »
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Adam Square Sliver wrote: »
    How do lock changers manage to survive in a house share? Far more people will have had keys over the years and changing the lock is never an option if there is a regular turn over of tenant.

    Well to be fair, most house sharers are young short term tenants.
    Anyone renting an entire house/apartmemnt for themselves &/or their family would usually consider security of their home higher then the average room renter.

    When I was living in a house share in Oz I just bought a decent basta lock from the hardware store and put it in the door.

    Everything valuable kept in there.

    As you say though, security is less of a priority when you're young and probably don't have anything worth stealing anyway.

    Family homes are where it counts.

    And before I get lynched for breaching the sacred holiness of the landlord's property, the original lock on the door was ****e and the key long lost.

    The landlord didn't even notice when I handed back the keys.


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    troyzer wrote: »
    When I was living in a house share in Oz I just bought a decent basta lock from the hardware store and put it in the door.

    Everything valuable kept in there.

    As you say though, security is less of a priority when you're young and probably don't have anything worth stealing anyway.

    Family homes are where it counts.

    To be honest I had just as much valuable stuff in houseshares as in our own place, mostly tech stuff.


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    #87
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Adam Square Sliver wrote: »
    troyzer wrote: »
    When I was living in a house share in Oz I just bought a decent basta lock from the hardware store and put it in the door.

    Everything valuable kept in there.

    As you say though, security is less of a priority when you're young and probably don't have anything worth stealing anyway.

    Family homes are where it counts.

    To be honest I had just as much valuable stuff in houseshares as in our own place, mostly tech stuff.

    That doesn't make sense. You own nothing in your own place that didn't fit in one room when you were house sharing?


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    #88
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Adam Square Sliver wrote: »
    How do lock changers manage to survive in a house share? Far more people will have had keys over the years and changing the lock is never an option if there is a regular turn over of tenant.

    When I rented I only ever lived in houseshares and in each one there were multiple changes in people living there in each one in my time there.

    As I said earlier if I was the op I would have a notice of eviction given to the tenants the second I got wind of their completely unreasonable and very much not allowed actions. I’d be be keeping as much of their deposit too to cover putting things back as they were.

    1) by being the first person in a house share and installing security locks with keys that can't just be copied, landlord has to order new ones with a card and all keys have to be returned

    or

    2) Install a code lock and disable users codes when they leave.


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    #89
    bobbyss
    Registered Users Posts: 5,190 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    dennyk wrote:
    All that said, none of that could possibly give them any sort of claim of "ownership" of your property. Hell, even if they knocked down the walls and did a complete down-to-the-studs renovation, that wouldn't mean they own the place. Whether they'll be problem tenants who will overhold at the end of their tenancy is another matter, though; certainly putting in a lot of work around the place could make some people feel they've a right to stay longer and could make them ornery if the landlord decides to end the tenancy, and by doing these things without consulting you and getting permission, they've definitely demonstrated that they don't have much respect for proper boundaries in the tenant-landlord relationship, so that is certainly cause for concern.

    dennyk wrote:
    The landlord can't unreasonably withhold permission for the tenant to repaint and redecorate, but they can require the tenant to return the property to its original state including paint colours, etc. at their expense. Tenants are required to ask permission before painting, though, and of course if they cause any damage by painting or decorating, they'd also be responsible for the cost to repair it.

    That's fair enough. But I honestly would not like these as tenants. Just the painting alone. Returning original paint colours before they leave is an expensive proposition. I would want it done professionally and would want to see receipts from a painting company etc.


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    #90
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,881 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    bobbyss wrote:
    That's fair enough. But I honestly would not like these as tenants. Just the painting alone. Returning original paint colours before they leave is an expensive proposition. I would want it done professionally and would want to see receipts from a painting company etc.


    If you examine the paint job & if you can't tell if it's a professional job or not then it's very petty to look for receipts. If it's a good job then it's a good job.


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    #91
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,266 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    BoneIdol wrote: »
    Sounds like they have upgraded the house off their own bat. You should consider a months free rent or a discount at least. Fair is fair.

    Haha.


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