Tenants made multiple changes to the property

Widdensushi

Another maggie thread(not).Tenants that look after your property are hard to find,get the key and try to keep the relationship good.

troyzer

GarIT wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Why ask for permission? If they say no, I'd change the locks anyway. It's a basic requirement for security.

So to avoid souring a relationship, do it anyway and the first they hear of it there's a key in their hand. They really can't complain, especially if you upgrade the lock.

Agree though that to find out weeks after the fact and have to ask for the key is poor form.

You ask for permission because it's not your property.

If that was done on me you'd be getting your 14 days notice and you'd be losing whatever from your deposit that it costs someone to put the old lock back or if the lock is gone for a new lock to be made to fit the old key and make sure the door hasn't been altered or damaged in any way fitting the new lock.

And if somebody has a key from an old tenant, walks in and steals all of my stuff I presume you'd pay for it?

Just as well I've never had a landlord who took issue with it. I've never actually rented in the Republic before, only in the North and overseas which is probably why I imagine you're so surprised at my cavalier attitude. It's normal in other countries.

In any case, it would be very petty to evict a tenant for making sure the property is secure. I would also be changing the alarm codes at the same time, this is really basic stuff that the landlord should be doing in advance.

jon1981

OP if you're thinking about evicting these i think you need your head examined. Thank them for their efforts and politely ask that in future all modifications are dicussed with you in advance. End of.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

GarIT wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Why ask for permission? If they say no, I'd change the locks anyway. It's a basic requirement for security.

So to avoid souring a relationship, do it anyway and the first they hear of it there's a key in their hand. They really can't complain, especially if you upgrade the lock.

Agree though that to find out weeks after the fact and have to ask for the key is poor form.

You ask for permission because it's not your property.

If that was done on me you'd be getting your 14 days notice and you'd be losing whatever from your deposit that it costs someone to put the old lock back or if the lock is gone for a new lock to be made to fit the old key and make sure the door hasn't been altered or damaged in any way fitting the new lock.

And if somebody has a key from an old tenant, walks in and steals all of my stuff I presume you'd pay for it?

Just as well I've never had a landlord who took issue with it. I've never actually rented in the Republic before, only in the North and overseas which is probably why I imagine you're so surprised at my cavalier attitude. It's normal in other countries.

In any case, it would be very petty to evict a tenant for making sure the property is secure. I would also be changing the alarm codes at the same time, this is really basic stuff that the landlord should be doing in advance.

By the way, a new lock to fit the old key? I don't think you know how locks work.

That would be unbelievably petty.

Sleeper12

pasquale83 wrote:

Ya I know but they didn't. What can I do now?

Sit them down and make it crystal clear that they must inform you before any changes take place.

If they had asked permission first I'd be jumping up & down with joy with the changes, or improvements might be a better word. Apart from the permission I'd see these as ideal tenants. Looks like they plan to stay a while.

I'd also make clear that any fixtures that they buy must remain in the property when they leave unless they are storing your fixtures intend to put them back when they leave

christy02

OP I'd throw them out straight away, get in some lads on the HAP scheme. They won't make any improvements. Probably won't pay the rent but hey at least they won't be improving your property for you.

Joking aside these sound like great tenants. I rent currently and we have painted house top to bottom and made a few improvements. I run them all by landlord first but he is delighted I take care of the place.
Anything breaks I fix or pay to get fixed without pestering him. He appreciates this and I have a good rent deal as a result.

I was a landlord up until recently and had trouble with a tenant not paying rent. Now there is an issue you don't want.

I would politely thank them for the work they have done but ask if they could run any more changes past you before doing them.

skallywag

Are they good, reliable tenants that one would wish to keep? Perhaps. I guess only the OP will know the full story here going on all aspects of the relationship since they moved in.

But making such changes without first contacting the owner of the property? Wow! I really cannot understand how anyone could even possibly think that this is OK. I would be letting them know this in no uncertain terms.

How on earth could someone think that making such changes without first speaking to the owner could possibly be OK?

GarIT

troyzer wrote: »

And if somebody has a key from an old tenant, walks in and steals all of my stuff I presume you'd pay for it?

Just as well I've never had a landlord who took issue with it. I've never actually rented in the Republic before, only in the North and overseas which is probably why I imagine you're so surprised at my cavalier attitude. It's normal in other countries.

In any case, it would be very petty to evict a tenant for making sure the property is secure. I would also be changing the alarm codes at the same time, this is really basic stuff that the landlord should be doing in advance.

No I wouldn't. If someone asked I'd give them the number of who I usually use and I'd probably offer to pay at least half. If someone did it without asking I'd want them out. It's my house, you don't do anything to change it without asking me, if you ask and it's reasonable I'd be fine with it.

The alarm wouldn't bother me as much as long as the code was provided, that can just be changed again later on.

troyzer wrote: »

By the way, a new lock to fit the old key? I don't think you know how locks work.

That would be unbelievably petty.

I pick locks for fun. If you get get to the insides of a lock you can change the pins to fit any key you want.

SusanC10

skallywag wrote: »

Are they good, reliable tenants that one would wish to keep? Perhaps. I guess only the OP will know the full story here going on all aspects of the relationship since they moved in.

But making such changes without first contacting the owner of the property? Wow! I really cannot understand how anyone could even possibly think that this is OK. I would be letting them know this in no uncertain terms.

How on earth could someone think that making such changes without first speaking to the owner could possibly be OK?

My guess is that these Tenants are not Irish and may not have rented in Ireland previously.

troyzer

GarIT wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

And if somebody has a key from an old tenant, walks in and steals all of my stuff I presume you'd pay for it?

Just as well I've never had a landlord who took issue with it. I've never actually rented in the Republic before, only in the North and overseas which is probably why I imagine you're so surprised at my cavalier attitude. It's normal in other countries.

In any case, it would be very petty to evict a tenant for making sure the property is secure. I would also be changing the alarm codes at the same time, this is really basic stuff that the landlord should be doing in advance.

No I wouldn't. If someone asked I'd give them the number of who I usually use and I'd probably offer to pay at least half. If someone did it without asking I'd want them out. It's my house, you don't do anything to change it without asking me, if you ask and it's reasonable I'd be fine with it.

The alarm wouldn't bother me as much as long as the code was provided, that can just be changed again later on.

troyzer wrote: »

By the way, a new lock to fit the old key? I don't think you know how locks work.

That would be unbelievably petty.

I pick locks for fun. If you get get to the insides of a lock you can change the pins to fit any key you want.

Why would you go through the trouble of fiddling a lock (and potentially making it more vulnerable) just to make sure you could use the old key? You can't do that with all locks either.

I would judge the situation. If a landlord seemed amenable then by all means you ask. But it's definitely more of a notification then a request. Again, it's really basic security.

If the landlord said no, are you just supposed to live in a house where loads of people could have the key?

If you were a landlord who'd say yes then fair enough but a friend in Australia was told no and then he was faced with the choice of living in an unsafe house or pissing off the landlord.

_Brian

My fear is that at some stage you’ll be expected to pay for the improvements or more likely provide rent free period to the value they pluck from the air as the cost of the upgrades.

It’s their home, but not their house. I’d be putting them straight that any structural changes must be agreed in advance or it’s a breach of the agreement.

GarIT

troyzer wrote: »

Why would you go through the trouble of fiddling a lock (and potentially making it more vulnerable) just to make sure you could use the old key? You can't do that with all locks either.

I would judge the situation. If a landlord seemed amenable then by all means you ask. But it's definitely more of a notification then a request. Again, it's really basic security.

If the landlord said no, are you just supposed to live in a house where loads of people could have the key?

If you were a landlord who'd say yes then fair enough but a friend in Australia was told no and then he was faced with the choice of living in an unsafe house or pissing off the landlord.

I'd do it because they would have seriously pissed me off and it's probably something I could legally use the deposit for. A call to a locksmith isn't going to cost me anything and I'd just let them handle it, it won't cost me anything, if someone acts like a dickhead they can expect me to treat them like one.

The "more of a notification than a request" is an attitude I wouldn't want someone renting from me to have, I'd want them out.

As far as I am aware legally yes. The landlord can refuse to let you change the locks and if you don't like it you can move out. I wouldn't do that but it is something the law sides with the landlord on. I know nothing about Australia, but here the pissed off landlord has a legal right to evict on that basis and at the moment I wouldn't worry about finding another tenant.

bobbyss

dennyk wrote:

A tenant painting the walls is generally considered acceptable and permission to do so can't generally be denied without a good reason (e.g. you have special walls that would be damaged by painting or something). Landscaping also really shouldn't be an issue, unless they've torn out actual existing landscaping work and replaced it with their own; tenants will naturally want to arrange their gardens as they see fit, especially if they aren't done up at all in the first place. Changing the white goods could be getting iffy, but if they've safely stored the original units to be put back when they leave and they didn't cause any damage in the process then there's really no cause to object. (If they did cause damage or they've disposed of your original items, that's not really acceptable, though...)

But what if the landlord objected to the Colour? Imagine landlord had it just painted it tastefully and new tenants painted it again to suit themselves without permission. If landlord wanted to rent again it's another expense?

Sarn

While it’s great that a tenant looks after things, what will happen at the end of the tenancy? Will the house be left with no white goods and a torn out stove? There could be costs incurred at the end to put things right.

wexie

MSVforever wrote: »

Are these guys Irish?

Just asking as in other countries this would be allowed. .

Not just allowed but perfectly normal and nobody would bat an eyelid at any of it.

(perhaps the addition of a stove is a bit of a stretch if there wasn't already a chimney or something there)

SusanC10 wrote: »

My guess is that these Tenants are not Irish and may not have rented in Ireland previously.

In most countries when you rent somewhere you're renting a home, to live long term and unless something goes seriously wrong or you want to move you can be fairly certain that is what you will get.

Graces7

GarIT wrote: »

I agree that changing the locks should be standard. However changing the locks prevents the landlord from accessing their property which they have a right to do. Changing locks without the landlords permission is against most leases and is grounds for an eviction even in a part 4 tenancy according to the RTB.

If they had of just asked and didn't make it difficult for the landlord to get a key that probably wouldn't have been an issue.

Not without prior agreement and not without the tenants there, I think.

alias no.9

troyzer wrote: »

By the way, a new lock to fit the old key? I don't think you know how locks work.

That would be unbelievably petty.

It's entirely possible to make up a lock to fit a key, any locksmith can do it, but it's utterly pointless unless you're seeking to have two different locks keyed alike and even then it's simpler to buy a set of locks that are already keyed alike.

On the point of changing locks, why would you assume the landlord had not changed the locks once the previous tenants moved out? The landlord is also at risk from an unauthorized reentry to the property by previous tenants or associates of previous tenants.

Back to the OP, request a copy of every key, if there's any resistance to supplying the keys, issue notice of termination.

If they supply the keys with no question, just give them a written reminder that all future work needs to be cleared with you first and have them pay for an independent check on the stove installation by someone with insurance. After that, enjoy having tenants who want to have a nice home.

Dial Hard

skallywag wrote:

How on earth could someone think that making such changes without first speaking to the owner could possibly be OK?

Because they're probably from a country with a functioning rental system.

Graces7

Jack Moore wrote: »

They are not entitled to change it back. Fixtures become part of the building and as I said ownership transfers

Where are you getting this idea please? Never heard it before..

pasquale83

troyzer wrote: »

Why is everyone most shocked at the locks?

I've done this at every place I've ever rented and immediately made a copy for the land lord. God knows who has a copy of the original from previous tenants.

To be honest, the next time I rent a place I'm going to ask that the landlord change the locks. It should be a basic part of preparing a house for a new tenant.

Agree with you. The problem is that they didn't notify me.

Anyway I got the key today...

pasquale83

MSVforever wrote: »

Are these guys Irish?

Just asking as in other countries this would be allowed.
In Germany you basically rent the shell and can nearly do what you want with the place.
However after ending the tenancy they must change everything back as it was beforehand.

They're not but they lived in the country for 10+ years so they should know what the rules are.

pasquale83

GarIT wrote: »

I agree that changing the locks should be standard. However changing the locks prevents the landlord from accessing their property which they have a right to do. Changing locks without the landlords permission is against most leases and is grounds for an eviction even in a part 4 tenancy according to the RTB.

If they had of just asked and didn't make it difficult for the landlord to get a key that probably wouldn't have been an issue.

That is 100% my point. The problem is that they don't communicate. They put me in front of the change and that's it.

Fol20

BoneIdol wrote: »

Sounds like they have upgraded the house off their own bat. You should consider a months free rent or a discount at least. Fair is fair.

Love this. The tenant is doing stuff without permission and may not be required yet you feel they should get a discount. You need to ask for permission first and foremost

Fol20

dennyk wrote: »

A tenant painting the walls is generally considered acceptable and permission to do so can't generally be denied without a good reason (e.g. you have special walls that would be damaged by painting or something). Landscaping also really shouldn't be an issue, unless they've torn out actual existing landscaping work and replaced it with their own; tenants will naturally want to arrange their gardens as they see fit, especially if they aren't done up at all in the first place. Changing the white goods could be getting iffy, but if they've safely stored the original units to be put back when they leave and they didn't cause any damage in the process then there's really no cause to object. (If they did cause damage or they've disposed of your original items, that's not really acceptable, though...)

Adding an outdoor tap (knocking a hole in the wall in the process) and adding a stove (if they also put in a chimney/flue or made other structural changes to accommodate it) without permission is going a bit beyond the bounds of acceptable behaviour, and changing the locks without permission is definitely unacceptable (what if you had to access the property due to an emergency situation?).

All that said, none of that could possibly give them any sort of claim of "ownership" of your property. Hell, even if they knocked down the walls and did a complete down-to-the-studs renovation, that wouldn't mean they own the place. Whether they'll be problem tenants who will overhold at the end of their tenancy is another matter, though; certainly putting in a lot of work around the place could make some people feel they've a right to stay longer and could make them ornery if the landlord decides to end the tenancy, and by doing these things without consulting you and getting permission, they've definitely demonstrated that they don't have much respect for proper boundaries in the tenant-landlord relationship, so that is certainly cause for concern.

As they've only been in there four months, they do not yet have Part 4 tenancy rights. Are they on a fixed term lease? If not, you can give them notice at any time before they've been there for six months for no reason at all; just be sure to do this quickly before they do hit that six-month mark. If they are under a fixed term lease, is there a clause in there that states the tenant cannot make changes to the property without the landlord's approval? Any proper lease should have a term to that effect. If so, then they have likely violated the terms of the lease and that should give you cause to terminate it. If there is no such clause, I'm afraid you might be a bit stuck, though; you can't end a fixed term lease early unless the tenant has violated it, and after six months they will acquire security of tenure for six years and cannot be removed even after the fixed term lease expires, except for an allowable reason (you require the property for yourself or an immediate family member, or you are selling it or performing extensive renovations that require vacant possession).

How is a tenant painting the walls acceptable without their permission. It isn’t the same as the Europeans. Likewise from an insurance point of view, if they fall when trying to paint the upper landing, I don’t want my insurance to be stuck with the bill. This is not acceptable behavior no matter how positive it is in the property. I would be having a firm discussion with the tenants as this can quickly get out of hand. Especially if they are created holes in walls for their own means

pasquale83

jamesbondings wrote: »

I do a small renovation whenever I move in somewhere. The last place I was in, I done the garden(plant removal and new beds) stripped all wallpaper, painted... Removed all carpets and put down laminated flooring throughout, cleared the chimney and put up shelving units..... All at my own time and expense. Why? Because if I have to spend 2 or more years in a property they I would like to ensure it is comfortable and not some bog standard rental that has barely had a lick of paint in 5 years.

Not everyone wants to live in an overpriced hovel. (I am not intimating your property was btw) Some of us just want somewhere nice and clean to relax with our family after a day's/weeks work. You appear to have tenants that care about the state of the place they live. They won't let it get into disrepair. Be thankful.

Of course take precautions legally and whatnot but it shouldn't be a cause for concern in my opinion

I used to live in the house so wasn't in a bed shape. Rent is also below market price as I don't want to speculate on rent, just stay quiet.

Don't really see why all of this noise from their side. I just like to get notified.

They told me they wanted to do landscaping in the garden and paint: I said go for it!

I'm easygoing but they have to realize the house is mine. So I want to know what's going on, especially I'd changes are structural like the hol for the tap and the stove.

pasquale83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Sit them down and make it crystal clear that they must inform you before any changes take place.

If they had asked permission first I'd be jumping up & down with joy with the changes, or improvements might be a better word. Apart from the permission I'd see these as ideal tenants. Looks like they plan to stay a while.

I'd also make clear that any fixtures that they buy must remain in the property when they leave unless they are storing your fixtures intend to put them back when they leave

You got my point indeed

4ensic15

I would get rid of those tenants. Any time people do things like that it will rebound against the landlord. When rent is not paid, they will then raise the issue of all the work they did and try and set it against the missing rent. they are far to cavilier. They are in breach of the Residential Tenancies Act and planning permission.

Sterling Archer

I wouldn't suggest kicking them out but,
Get a copy of the key
Find out what happened the old white goods, if they are in a shed/storage somewhere, the new white goods become part of the property so make them aware they cannot take them
Ensure your property insurance covers the modifications.
Find out who made the changes, you don't want any leak if they installed any piping - you may have to get the work inspected to make sure you are covered.

Lay down the law going forward, zero modifications without your permission, schedule regular inspections for the next few months

Garibaldi?

I would not suggest that these people are anything but honest and conscientious. However, they should have consulted with the landlord before making changes. Some of these changes are aesthetic/decorative. Others have possible consequences in the area of Health and Safety. The landlord needs to have a conversation with these tenants in order to find out "where they are coming from"(and not geographically). Is it possible that in a landlords' market they are trying to be the ideal tenants by refurbishing the premises and instead are causing consternation. Time for a chat!

skallywag

Dial Hard wrote: »

Because they're probably from a country with a functioning rental system.

I've lived for years in a country (EU) where renting is the norm and the system is very much functional. That said, if I had made some of the said changes without informing the owner I would have been out on my ear in an instant.

In particular changing the locks without the owner's consent.