Tenants made multiple changes to the property

4ensic15

pasquale83 wrote: »

I know. I will try to get advice ASAP. But I think they might not be happy to end the tenancy now and they won't leave the property even before the 6 months are passed.

What can I do if they ignore any eviction notice? Is there a legal way to kick them out?

Open an overholding dispute with the RTB.

pasquale83

4ensic15 wrote: »

Open an overholding dispute with the RTB.

Thank for the reply. I was just reading on the citizensinfomation webiste:

"During the first 6 months of a tenancy, the landlord can ask you to leave without giving a reason (unless you have a fixed-term tenancy) but must serve a valid written notice of termination, allowing a minimum 28-day notice period. Only 7 days’ notice is required in the first 6 months if your behaviour is seriously anti-social or threatens the fabric of the property."

The end of the 28 notice period should fall within the 6 months (so I need to give notice 1 month ahead of the 6 months deadline) should the eviction notice be received by the tenants within the 6 months?

Thanks again

the_syco

pasquale83 wrote: »

Only 7 days’ notice is required in the first 6 months if your behaviour is seriously anti-social or threatens the fabric of the property."

Ask the solicitor if the last bit applies to dumping current white goods without owners consent?

GGTrek

pasquale83 wrote: »

4ensic15 wrote: »

Open an overholding dispute with the RTB.

Thank for the reply. I was just reading on the citizensinfomation webiste:

"During the first 6 months of a tenancy, the landlord can ask you to leave without giving a reason (unless you have a fixed-term tenancy) but must serve a valid written notice of termination, allowing a minimum 28-day notice period. Only 7 days’ notice is required in the first 6 months if your behaviour is seriously anti-social or threatens the fabric of the property."

The end of the 28 notice period should fall within the 6 months (so I need to give notice 1 month ahead of the 6 months deadline) should the eviction notice be received by the tenants within the 6 months?

Thanks again

Citizen advice is wrong. The service date of the termination notice should be before the 6 months expire and the termination date has to be a minimum of 28 days after the service date and a maximum of 70 days after the service date. In addition if you provided a fixed term to your tenants the service date cannot be within the fixed term. If you provided a fixed term of more than 6 months minus 2 days (clever landlords never provide fixed terms) you cannot use the no reason termination notice. In one of my old posts (very much hated by the socialists do gooders of this forum) I explained all the legislation and case law. I do not have time to report it all again here. PM me if you cannot find my old post.
In any case I used extensively the no reason termination notice and tested it at RTB this year against a non paying tenant to cut short the process by 14 days.

pasquale83

GGTrek wrote: »

Citizen advice is wrong. The service date of the termination notice should be before the 6 months expire and the termination date has to be a minimum of 28 days after the service date and a maximum of 70 days after the service date. In addition if you provided a fixed term to your tenants the service date cannot be within the fixed term. If you provided a fixed term of more than 6 months minus 2 days (clever landlords never provide fixed terms) you cannot use the no reason termination notice. In one of my old posts (very much hated by the socialists do gooders of this forum) I explained all the legislation and case law. I do not have time to report it all again here. PM me if you cannot find my old post.
In any case I used extensively the no reason termination notice and tested it at RTB this year against a non paying tenant to cut short the process by 14 days.

OK, thank you for the reply.

Can I send it by post? Should it be registered post?

Thank you.

GGTrek

pasquale83 wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

Citizen advice is wrong. The service date of the termination notice should be before the 6 months expire and the termination date has to be a minimum of 28 days after the service date and a maximum of 70 days after the service date. In addition if you provided a fixed term to your tenants the service date cannot be within the fixed term. If you provided a fixed term of more than 6 months minus 2 days (clever landlords never provide fixed terms) you cannot use the no reason termination notice. In one of my old posts (very much hated by the socialists do gooders of this forum) I explained all the legislation and case law. I do not have time to report it all again here. PM me if you cannot find my old post.
In any case I used extensively the no reason termination notice and tested it at RTB this year against a non paying tenant to cut short the process by 14 days.

OK, thank you for the reply.

Can I send it by post? Should it be registered post?

Thank you.

I did not understand or find anywhere in this massively long thread the important bit: does the tenancy agreement contain a fixed term? If it does not have a fixed term or if there is no written tenancy agreement then yes you should send it by registered post (even from outside Ireland). However it would be better to have a person in Ireland that can act as witness at the RTB who will serve the notice personally, take several photos at various distances of the notice glued to the door of the property and send you the photos by whatsapp/viber and by email. In this way you will have dated evidence and witness of service.

With registered post you run the risk that the recipient does not receive/collect and then you are screwed. Happened to me recently with Bank of Ireland and caused me major hassle.

stinkbomb

the_syco wrote: »

Ask the solicitor if the last bit applies to dumping current white goods without owners consent?

That does not threaten the fabric of the property, so no need to ask a silly question (and pay for the answer)

pasquale83

GGTrek wrote: »

I did not understand or find anywhere in this massively long thread the important bit: does the tenancy agreement contain a fixed term? If it does not have a fixed term or if there is no written tenancy agreement then yes you should send it by registered post (even from outside Ireland). However it would be better to have a person in Ireland that can act as witness at the RTB who will serve the notice personally, take several photos at various distances of the notice glued to the door of the property and send you the photos by whatsapp/viber and by email. In this way you will have dated evidence and witness of service.

With registered post you run the risk that the recipient does not receive/collect and then you are screwed. Happened to me recently with Bank of Ireland and caused me major hassle.

Thanks again for the reply. The tenancy agreement does not have a fixed term.
I can try to ask someone to hand the eviction notice, he has been registered at the RTB as letting agent.

Regarding the convenience to me to ask these people to leave I have the following doubt. They have shaped the house the way suits them. I don't need the house (I was expecting to rent it them long term) and the reason I am now thinking to evict them is that they do whatever they want.

So I don't think they will be scared by an eviction notice, even now before the 6 months term. So would be wise to start a fight now? So far they paid rent and overall the house is in a good shape. Wouldn't be better to start a fight in the future if they stop paying rent or if I decide to sell the property and they don't want to leave (overholding)?

stinkbomb

Why not simply talk to them? Explain your issue, tell them to do no more work without express permission, and keep what could be the best tenants you could possibly have? Tenants who landscape gardens and decorate are intending to be long term settled tenant and are usually the type to pay on time, fix things themselves, and save the landlord time money and hassle.

Talk to your tenants instead of solicitors. You could evict great tenants and find yourself with anti social non payers who wreck the place, and all because they wanted to make a home.

pasquale83

stinkbomb wrote: »

Why not simply talk to them? Explain your issue, tell them to do no more work without express permission, and keep what could be the best tenants you could possibly have? Tenants who landscape gardens and decorate are intending to be long term settled tenant and are usually the type to pay on time, fix things themselves, and save the landlord time money and hassle.

Talk to your tenants instead of solicitors. You could evict great tenants and find yourself with anti social non payers who wreck the place, and all because they wanted to make a home.

thank you for your reply. do you think I haven't done it yet? as I said in this thread multiple times that is the reason why I am so fed up with this situation.

Their reply has been always "yes, no problem" and they did whatever they wanted. They don't care at all to my request. What can they do next? What happens if I might need the house for any reason?

The fact they don't listen can be a big problem.

givyjoe

How has this gone 19 pages and the landlord (it seems from the most recent posts) still hasn't spoken to the tenants?!

pasquale83

givyjoe wrote: »

How has this gone 19 pages and the landlord (it seems from the most recent posts) still hasn't spoken to the tenants?!

have you read my last post above??

GGTrek

You can always withdraw a no reason termination notice served in the first 6 months (the RTA in section 28(4) explicitly allows it). Call your tenants on the phone and tell them you are fed up and their tenancy is at risk. I had a tenant I recently evicted because he was continuosly breaking stuff and having extra occupants beyond the maximum allowed in the lease 4 days per week. He would not listen and he got the termination notice 3 months after starting the lease, if the OP property is in a sought after area he will have a queue of good tenants who will accept the place as is and not break the lease terms. Paying the rent is just a necessary condition but not sufficient for a good landlord tenant relationship, many people just don't realize that there are a lot more responsibilities and in the current anti-landlord climate a landlord should be rigid on the tenant's obligations.
I shall copy them here for the people who say that everything is fine (but they have no skin in the game!). These are just the statutory tenant's obligations (section 16 of the RTA), the lease can add more if they don't go against the RTA. I suggest the "everything is fine" brigade to read them in detail and learn something:

Obligations of tenants. 16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—
(a) pay to the landlord or his or her authorised agent (or any other person where required to do so by any enactment)—
(i) the rent provided for under the tenancy concerned on the date it falls due for payment, and
(ii) where the lease or tenancy agreement provides that any charges or taxes are payable by the tenant, pay those charges or taxes in accordance with the lease or tenancy agreement (unless provision to that effect in the lease or tenancy agreement is unlawful or contravenes any other enactment),
(b) ensure that no act or omission by the tenant results in there not being complied with the obligations of the landlord, under any enactment, in relation to the dwelling or the tenancy (and in particular, the landlord's obligations under regulations under section 18 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 ),
(c) allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any person or persons acting on the landlord's behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling,
(d) notify the landlord or his or her authorised agent of any defect that arises in the dwelling that requires to be repaired so as to enable the landlord comply with his or her obligations, in relation to the dwelling or the tenancy, under any enactment,
(e) allow the landlord, or any person or persons acting on the landlord's behalf, reasonable access to the dwelling for the purposes of allowing any works (the responsibility for the carrying out of which is that of the landlord) to be carried out,
(f) not do any act that would cause a deterioration in the condition the dwelling was in at the commencement of the tenancy, but there shall be disregarded, in determining whether this obligation has been complied with at a particular time, any deterioration in that condition owing to normal wear and tear, that is to say wear and tear that is normal having regard to—
(i) the time that has elapsed from the commencement of the tenancy,
(ii) the extent of occupation of the dwelling the landlord must have reasonably foreseen would occur since that commencement, and
(iii) any other relevant matters,
(g) if paragraph (f) is not complied with, take such steps as the landlord may reasonably require to be taken for the purpose of restoring the dwelling to the condition mentioned in paragraph (f) or to defray any costs incurred by the landlord in his or her taking such steps as are reasonable for that purpose,
(h) not behave within the dwelling, or in the vicinity of it, in a way that is anti-social or allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the dwelling to behave within it, or in the vicinity of it, in such a way,
(i) not act or allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the dwelling to act in a way which would result in the invalidation of a policy of insurance in force in relation to the dwelling,
(j) if any act of the tenant's, or any act of another occupier of, or visitor to, the dwelling which the tenant has allowed to be done, results in an increase in the premium payable under a policy of insurance in force in relation to the dwelling, pay to the landlord an amount equal to the amount of that increase (“the increased element”) (and that obligation to pay such an amount shall apply in respect of each further premium falling due for payment under the policy that includes the increased element),
(k) not assign or sub-let the tenancy without the written consent of the landlord (which consent the landlord may, in his or her discretion, withhold),
(l) not alter or improve the dwelling without the written consent of the landlord which consent the landlord—
(i) in case the alteration or improvement consists only of repairing, painting and decorating, or any of those things, may not unreasonably withhold,
(ii) in any other case, may, in his or her discretion, withhold,
(m) not use the dwelling or cause it to be used for any purpose other than as a dwelling without the written consent of the landlord (which consent the landlord may, in his or her discretion, withhold), and
(n) notify in writing the landlord of the identity of each person (other than a multiple tenant) who, for the time being, resides ordinarily in the dwelling.

GGTrek

Duplicated

antietam1

They should have to ask about painting, I had tenants who painted everything really dark red, almost black really.
It took five coats in the living room after a primer suggested by HGW?
Still not right.
Another couple used to burn all kinds of rubbish and damp wood in the burner, so the wood burner had to go.
Satelite dishes without permission was really annoying for me, especially when they rust.

pasquale83

antietam1 wrote: »

They should have to ask about painting, I had tenants who painted everything really dark red, almost black really.
It took five coats in the living room after a primer suggested by HGW?
Still not right.
Another couple used to burn all kinds of rubbish and damp wood in the burner, so the wood burner had to go.
Satelite dishes without permission was really annoying for me, especially when they rust.

so looks like that in general is not really easy to manage tenants

pasquale83

GGTrek wrote: »

You can always withdraw a no reason termination notice served in the first 6 months (the RTA in section 28(4) explicitly allows it). Call your tenants on the phone and tell them you are fed up and their tenancy is at risk. I had a tenant I recently evicted because he was continuosly breaking stuff and having extra occupants beyond the maximum allowed in the lease 4 days per week. He would not listen and he got the termination notice 3 months after starting the lease, if the OP property is in a sought after area he will have a queue of good tenants who will accept the place as is and not break the lease terms. Paying the rent is just a necessary condition but not sufficient for a good landlord tenant relationship, many people just don't realize that there are a lot more responsibilities and in the current anti-landlord climate a landlord should be rigid on the tenant's obligations.
I shall copy them here for the people who say that everything is fine (but they have no skin in the game!). These are just the statutory tenant's obligations (section 16 of the RTA), the lease can add more if they don't go against the RTA. I suggest the "everything is fine" brigade to read them in detail and learn something:

Obligations of tenants. 16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—
(a) pay to the landlord or his or her authorised agent (or any other person where required to do so by any enactment)—
(i) the rent provided for under the tenancy concerned on the date it falls due for payment, and
(ii) where the lease or tenancy agreement provides that any charges or taxes are payable by the tenant, pay those charges or taxes in accordance with the lease or tenancy agreement (unless provision to that effect in the lease or tenancy agreement is unlawful or contravenes any other enactment),
(b) ensure that no act or omission by the tenant results in there not being complied with the obligations of the landlord, under any enactment, in relation to the dwelling or the tenancy (and in particular, the landlord's obligations under regulations under section 18 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 ),
(c) allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any person or persons acting on the landlord's behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling,
(d) notify the landlord or his or her authorised agent of any defect that arises in the dwelling that requires to be repaired so as to enable the landlord comply with his or her obligations, in relation to the dwelling or the tenancy, under any enactment,
(e) allow the landlord, or any person or persons acting on the landlord's behalf, reasonable access to the dwelling for the purposes of allowing any works (the responsibility for the carrying out of which is that of the landlord) to be carried out,
(f) not do any act that would cause a deterioration in the condition the dwelling was in at the commencement of the tenancy, but there shall be disregarded, in determining whether this obligation has been complied with at a particular time, any deterioration in that condition owing to normal wear and tear, that is to say wear and tear that is normal having regard to—
(i) the time that has elapsed from the commencement of the tenancy,
(ii) the extent of occupation of the dwelling the landlord must have reasonably foreseen would occur since that commencement, and
(iii) any other relevant matters,
(g) if paragraph (f) is not complied with, take such steps as the landlord may reasonably require to be taken for the purpose of restoring the dwelling to the condition mentioned in paragraph (f) or to defray any costs incurred by the landlord in his or her taking such steps as are reasonable for that purpose,
(h) not behave within the dwelling, or in the vicinity of it, in a way that is anti-social or allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the dwelling to behave within it, or in the vicinity of it, in such a way,
(i) not act or allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the dwelling to act in a way which would result in the invalidation of a policy of insurance in force in relation to the dwelling,
(j) if any act of the tenant's, or any act of another occupier of, or visitor to, the dwelling which the tenant has allowed to be done, results in an increase in the premium payable under a policy of insurance in force in relation to the dwelling, pay to the landlord an amount equal to the amount of that increase (“the increased element”) (and that obligation to pay such an amount shall apply in respect of each further premium falling due for payment under the policy that includes the increased element),
(k) not assign or sub-let the tenancy without the written consent of the landlord (which consent the landlord may, in his or her discretion, withhold),
(l) not alter or improve the dwelling without the written consent of the landlord which consent the landlord—
(i) in case the alteration or improvement consists only of repairing, painting and decorating, or any of those things, may not unreasonably withhold,
(ii) in any other case, may, in his or her discretion, withhold,
(m) not use the dwelling or cause it to be used for any purpose other than as a dwelling without the written consent of the landlord (which consent the landlord may, in his or her discretion, withhold), and
(n) notify in writing the landlord of the identity of each person (other than a multiple tenant) who, for the time being, resides ordinarily in the dwelling.

thanks again. I am just worried to start a legal fight with them now. and I don't see an easy support by solicitors especially because I'm abroad and get their help from them on the phone or by email is not easy.

In your opinion would it be possible to give a solicitor a power of attorney to manage the situation for me, evict them and sell the house? Or should I ask an estate agent to step in?

Being not in the country makes all of what you are suggesting a way more difficult and almost impossible

thanks a million

DaraDali

pasquale83 wrote: »

thanks again. I am just worried to start a legal fight with them now. and I don't see an easy support by solicitors especially because I'm abroad and get their help from them on the phone or by email is not easy.

In your opinion would it be possible to give a solicitor a power of attorney to manage the situation for me, evict them and sell the house? Or should I ask an estate agent to step in?

Being not in the country makes all of what you are suggesting a way more difficult and almost impossible

thanks a million

Hope you know that the tenants are entitled to deduct 20 per cent of the gross rent from you each month and keep it to give to revenue

antietam1

pasquale83 wrote: »

so looks like that in general is not really easy to manage tenants

My sister has had no luck with tenants the last 3 years or so, the house is easily rented but difficult to sell.

meijin

DaraDali wrote: »

Hope you know that the tenants are entitled to deduct 20 per cent of the gross rent from you each month and keep it to give to revenue

"obliged" could be more appropriate word rather than "entitled"?

see http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tax_relief_for_tenants.html#le9d7d

if you pay the rent directly to the landlord (including into their bank account, whether in Ireland or abroad), you must deduct tax at the standard rate (20% at present) from the gross amount that you pay.

pasquale83

meijin wrote: »

"obliged" could be more appropriate word rather than "entitled"?

see http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tax_relief_for_tenants.html#le9d7d

Indeed. so what happens if they don't do it? They actually don't so was planning to declare the income to the Revenue myself.

pasquale83

antietam1 wrote: »

My sister has had no luck with tenants the last 3 years or so, the house is easily rented but difficult to sell.

do you mean she is not able to sell it because of the tenants?

stinkbomb

stinkbomb wrote: »

Why not simply talk to them? Explain your issue, tell them to do no more work without express permission, and keep what could be the best tenants you could possibly have? Tenants who landscape gardens and decorate are intending to be long term settled tenant and are usually the type to pay on time, fix things themselves, and save the landlord time money and hassle.

Talk to your tenants instead of solicitors. You could evict great tenants and find yourself with anti social non payers who wreck the place, and all because they wanted to make a home.

It’s far too risky, now his the only easy chance the op has to get rid of them for the next 6 years. They have demonstrated multiple instances of breaking the lease and ignoring the ops requests they need to be got rid of ASAP!

I just wouldn’t stand for it, the absolute cheek of them to make changes to someone else’s property without consent, if I was their LL that alone would make me issue an eviction notice immediately once I saw they had made changes.

antietam1

pasquale83 wrote: »

do you mean she is not able to sell it because of the tenants?

It was a private estate and is getting rougher all the time, but nothing to do with any tenants she had.

GGTrek

Yes you can give power of attorney to a solicitor even outside Ireland. You have two choices: Irish consulate or a notary public and then Apostilled.

However I would strongly suggest you to often fly to Ireland (2-3 times a year minimum). I have enough properties to make it worth it. Some types of tenants need to see the face of the landlord every few months even if you have a property manager (mine meets personally every one of the 10 tenancies at least once every 3 months even if there are no problems, once a month for the problem tenants like yours).

dennyk

pasquale83 wrote: »

Indeed. so what happens if they don't do it? They actually don't so was planning to declare the income to the Revenue myself.

You should refund their overpayment of rent up to this point and let them know about their duty to withhold 20% of their rent payment and forward it to Revenue. The responsibility for withholding in the case of a foreign landlord is entirely on the tenant, so Revenue will come after them (not you) for those payments eventually. Note that you must still declare the gross rent (before withholding) on your tax return as well (and then deduct the withheld amount from your tax owed), as you may owe more than the base 20% to Ireland depending on your tax situation, how much Irish-sourced revenue you have, and any tax treaties between Ireland and your country of residence. (You could also owe less than 20%, as well, in which case you'd be entitled to a refund...)

pasquale83

GGTrek wrote: »

Yes you can give power of attorney to a solicitor even outside Ireland. You have two choices: Irish consulate or a notary public and then Apostilled.

However I would strongly suggest you to often fly to Ireland (2-3 times a year minimum). I have enough properties to make it worth it. Some types of tenants need to see the face of the landlord every few months even if you have a property manager (mine meets personally every one of the 10 tenancies at least once every 3 months even if there are no problems, once a month for the problem tenants like yours).

I did fly to Ireland after 3 months the tenancy started and I was thinking to do that every 6 months if there were no problem.

I think that these people want to stay long term and made the house they way they liked for that reason. They just don't care or don't think about rules. I've seen this kind of behaviour with people from Eastern Europe.

They mentioned multiple times they will return the house the way it was once they will leave. So I guess they are planning to take the shed, the stove and all the stuff that they added with them once they'll leave. They mentioned I can pay for the material or agree a price, that would be fair I think.

So if I want to think positive would be better to stay quiet, get the rent every month, visit them every 3-6 months and happy days.

I think that if I send an eviction notice now they might do retaliation on the house itself as they just finished to decorate it. I know they shouldn't have done that but from their perspective they did it for them and that was what they wanted.

I'm not sure if the above makes sense. Anyway today I got the reply from my solicitor and he mentioned that with what they've done they've broken multiple points of the lease.

4ensic15

It makes no sense to leave them there. the longer they stay the worse it will get. When the money stops you will be in even more ****.

davindub

pasquale83 wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

Yes you can give power of attorney to a solicitor even outside Ireland. You have two choices: Irish consulate or a notary public and then Apostilled.

However I would strongly suggest you to often fly to Ireland (2-3 times a year minimum). I have enough properties to make it worth it. Some types of tenants need to see the face of the landlord every few months even if you have a property manager (mine meets personally every one of the 10 tenancies at least once every 3 months even if there are no problems, once a month for the problem tenants like yours).

I did fly to Ireland after 3 months the tenancy started and I was thinking to do that every 6 months if there were no problem.

I think that these people want to stay long term and made the house they way they liked for that reason. They just don't care or don't think about rules. I've seen this kind of behaviour with people from Eastern Europe.

They mentioned multiple times they will return the house the way it was once they will leave. So I guess they are planning to take the shed, the stove and all the stuff that they added with them once they'll leave. They mentioned I can pay for the material or agree a price, that would be fair I think.

So if I want to think positive would be better to stay quiet, get the rent every month, visit them every 3-6 months and happy days.

I think that if I send an eviction notice now they might do retaliation on the house itself as they just finished to decorate it. I know they shouldn't have done that but from their perspective they did it for them and that was what they wanted.

I'm not sure if the above makes sense. Anyway today I got the reply from my solicitor and he mentioned that with what they've done they've broken multiple points of the lease.

The above makes sense op, i see no benefit to evicting them when that action will at least cost you reletting expenses.

Did your solicitor mention renegotiating the deposit to cover the restoration costs if needed?

pasquale83

davindub wrote: »

The above makes sense op, i see no benefit to evicting them when that action will at least cost you reletting expenses.

Did your solicitor mention renegotiating the deposit to cover the restoration costs if needed?

no, he didn't