Tenants made multiple changes to the property

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

That doesn't make sense. You own nothing in your own place that didn't fit in one room when you were house sharing?

Of stuff that could easily be stolen yes I own pretty much the same amount of stuff. Good flatscreen tv, dslr, MacBook, iPad etc I had similar or the same versions of and even saying that most burglaries don’t even bother with this sort of stuff as they are looking for jewelry and cash.

They certainly aren’t stealing furniture, home applicances, beds etc that will be much better/more expensive than a houseshare.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

1) by being the first person in a house share and installing security locks with keys that can't just be copied, landlord has to order new ones with a card and all keys have to be returned

or

2) Install a code lock and disable users codes when they leave.

But in reality houseshares usually don’t work like that, you move into a room as someone moved out and the other rooms are already occupied, you get your key from the person moving out or often had to get one cut from one of the other housemates so the last thing the LL wants is ones that can’t be copied. Code locks on houses are basically unheard of.

I never had any issue anyway and spent many years in shares where there could have been well into double digits of previous housemates with keys etc.

Sad Professor

This thread, so like many in this forum, is a depressing insight into the mentality of Irish landlords and why we our terrible rental system needs a complete overhaul.

pasquale83

Thank you all for the multiple replies and opinions.

As I mentioned in a previous post I got the key (the correct one ) and I've told them for the millionth time to notify me if they want to make changes, as the house is mine and I will be happy to contribute (for example paying for the material).

The fact that the guy is a builder from one side is positive but the con is that he can do the works in his spare time and actually enjoys them.

Anyway, what do you recommend to do as a follow up of the inspection? Send by e-mail the minutes of my findings stating in written that any further works should be notified to me before they are done?

I'd like to have the wooden fired stove inspected as the fireplace is built to be gas fired (there are gas pipes nearby but never used). Can an RGI do that for me?

Also, can you confirm that in principle any new item added to the house is now mine? (please quote references)

Thank you again!

Graces7

Adam Square Sliver wrote: »

Changing the lock alone would trigger an immediate notice of eviction from me but then they also made changes to the property which makes it all even worse. I would not entertain any lock changes in my property, I’ve never heard of it happening between tenancies and also never heard of a previous tenant coming back and robbing a place, it’s fantasy stuff.

They have no rights to do anything to the property without first asking and even if they asked I would not allow it as you don’t know the quality of work, the quality of fixtures+fittings they will get, the safety of the work etc. that’s all on top of the fact they will very likely try to use it against you at some point in future.

Get them out quick before they reach 6 months and you are stuck with them for 6 years.

Happened to me. Came home and doors wide open and damage done. It is a courtesy and a safeguard

Graces7

pasquale83 wrote: »

Thank you all for the multiple replies and opinions.

As I mentioned in a previous post I got the key (the correct one ) and I've told them for the millionth time to notify me if they want to make changes, as the house is mine and I will be happy to contribute (for example paying for the material).

The fact that the guy is a builder from one side is positive but the con is that he can do the works in his spare time and actually enjoys them.

Anyway, what do you recommend to do as a follow up of the inspection? Send by e-mail the minutes of my findings stating in written that any further works should be notified to me before they are done?

I'd like to have the wooden fired stove inspected as the fireplace is built to be gas fired (there are gas pipes nearby but never used). Can an RGI do that for me?

Also, can you confirm that in principle any new item added to the house is now mine? (please quote references)

Thank you again!

I have asked this twice already. Where would it stop? Bedding? Curtains? I have moved several times and always taken my freezer with me. And microwave.. kettle...mixer.... There is surely no way this could be true; not for things that can be moved

Sleeper12

Graces7 wrote: »

I have asked this twice already. Where would it stop? Bedding? Curtains? I have moved several times and always taken my freezer with me. And microwave.. kettle...mixer.... There is surely no way this could be true; not for things that can be moved

I have no idea if this is true. I don't believe it is true. I know when I sell a house the fixtures are part of the sale unless otherwise mentioned in the contracts. I can't take my gas boiler, kitchen presses etc. I have seen people selling taking the chrome sockets & light switches & replacing with white Plastic, Putting in 20 year old electric shower & taking the new one



I can take every bulb out , fridge, washing machine etc. Anything not permanently fixed to the house is not part of the house in a house sale. I think posters are confusing a house sale & a house lease. Usually with a lease you put it back the way you got it unless otherwise agreed.

dennyk

With a lease the tenant would be obligated to return the place and the contents in the same condition they took possession of it minus ordinary wear and tear. If they install their own appliances at their own expense (with or without the landlord's permission), those do not automatically become the property of the landlord (that's ridiculous), but if there was a hob and a fridge when they first moved into the place, then there needs to be a hob and a fridge of at least an equivalent age and value when they leave. The tenant would be free to take their new appliances with them, but they'll have to put the old ones back in. (And of course if they damaged the old appliances during the removal/installation or by storing them improperly, they'd be responsible for the cost of replacement with items of like age and value as the originals). Of course, they could come to an agreement with the landlord to leave the new appliances there instead of reinstalling the old ones if both parties were amenable, but they are not obligated to do so (nor is the landlord obligated to allow it). Even if the tenants just take their new appliances and bail without returning the old ones, the landlord could only withhold or recover the cost of replacing the landlord's originals with items of like age and value, not the value of the new appliances that the tenant had installed while they were there.

For items like the new wood-burning stove and outdoor tap, technically the tenant could remove those when they leave, but again the expense of doing so (and of returning everything to its original condition, e.g. repairing the tap hole and removing whatever hardware was put in for the stove install) would be on the tenant, and if they didn't do it (or if they did it poorly so that it had to be redone properly), the landlord could deduct from their deposit the cost of remedying the damage, or pursue them in court for the remainder if necessary. If they left those things in place instead, the landlord could also pursue them for the cost of removing them and restoring the place to its original condition if they really wanted to.

Now obviously if the *landlord* buys and installs new appliances or whatnot during a tenancy, those do belong to the landlord and the tenant has no right to keep them (and of course if they did swipe 'em on the way out, they'd be responsible for the cost of those new items, not just the value of whatever old ones were in there before the landlord's upgrades).

seamus

Sad Professor wrote: »

This thread, so like many in this forum, is a depressing insight into the mentality of Irish landlords and why we our terrible rental system needs a complete overhaul.

"My tenant has poured thousands of euro and hours of his time into professionally upgrading my property, what do I do?"

"Demand that he remove it all and put it back the way he was, then evict him!"

Granted that was only one or two posters, but fncking hell.

OP, this guy is a keeper. He has invested personal effort into your property and as such, his pride is now entangled with it. He's not going to screw you or your property over, he's going to look after it. You can't ask more than that.

I know someone made a bit of a joke about giving him a discount, but in all seriousness, keeping his rent reasonable and not hiking it as much as you can every year, is in your own interests.

pasquale83 wrote: »

Anyway, what do you recommend to do as a follow up of the inspection? Send by e-mail the minutes of my findings stating in written that any further works should be notified to me before they are done?

If you are happy that the things he does are actually good ideas and good quality, then I would be inclined to somewhat modify the terms of the lease.

Allow him to make changes, off his own bat, and at his own expense, without notifying you first. Insist that he notify you of the change afterwards and/or during your inspections, and require that you be allowed to have them professionally inspected where necessary.

Make it clear that all gas/electrical work absolutely must be carried out by a registered contractor AND certified. If this is not done, then you WILL hire a certified contractor to remove/repair the alterations and add that cost to the rent.

A face to face chat with him that this is not usual in Ireland might help iron out any misunderstanding. You sound like a reasonable person, not interested in being a stickler for the rules. He probably knows this, so keeps going because he doesn't expect you to come down and yell at him. So don't, but just ask nicely for a bit of respect.

I'd like to have the wooden fired stove inspected as the fireplace is built to be gas fired (there are gas pipes nearby but never used). Can an RGI do that for me?

The RGI can't inspect the stove, but if you can find one to have a chat to, that's not a bad idea. If the gas pipes were never used, then the installation of the stove should be no issue, but each situation is different. The RGI will never certify someone else's work, but he might be happy to take a look and advise.

Simple stuff with any stove is that there must be a carbon monoxide alarm in the room (€20), and a vent on an external wall.

Also, can you confirm that in principle any new item added to the house is now mine? (please quote references)

The short answer is no, they are not yours.

The long answer is that you are entitled to have the property returned to you in a condition equivalent to the start of lease, minus wear and tear. The reality is that when a tenant makes large modifications and attaches things like stoves, the cost of removing them and restoring the property is more than the appliance is worth. So the tenant and landlord usually agree to leave it in place.

Likewise with white goods - they still belong to the tenant, but if you supplied a dishwasher and they threw it out and replaced it, then they must return the property to you, with an equivalent or better dishwasher in it.

Edit, or exactly what dennyk said above

Fol20

Sad Professor wrote: »

This thread, so like many in this forum, is a depressing insight into the mentality of Irish landlords and why we our terrible rental system needs a complete overhaul.

The feelings are mutual. so many things can go wrong especially a fire safety hazard the tenant is just doing stuff on their own without any permission. Communication is key to everything in life and this is something this tenant is lacking here.

blue_blue

the_pen_turner wrote: »

and do regular check ups

Yeah, get regular check ups on the improvements they been doing to your property OP.

blue_blue

Sounds like the OP is really tight, would peel an orange in his pocket.

Bought cheap white goods and didn't bother installing a proper heating system.

skallywag

blue_blue wrote: »

Yeah, get regular check ups on the improvements they been doing to your property OP.

I really think that a lot of people are missing the main point of this thread.

The issue is not with the improvements themselves, which all in all may of course be a good thing. The issue is that these changes were made without first informing the owner.

You simply cannot make such changes without first informing the owner. This is not just an Irish thing, it's also the case in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc ...

pasquale83

blue_blue wrote: »

Yeah, get regular check ups on the improvements they been doing to your property OP.

they are changes. they are improvements if I like them. period.

blue_blue wrote: »

Sounds like the OP is really tight, would peel an orange in his pocket.

Bought cheap white goods and didn't bother installing a proper heating system.

ya, very tight indeed. I loved to freeze during the winter...

skallywag wrote: »

I really think that a lot of people are missing the main point of this thread.

The issue is not with the improvements themselves, which all in all may of course be a good thing. The issue is that these changes were made without first informing the owner.

You simply cannot make such changes without first informing the owner. This is not just an Irish thing, it's also the case in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc ...

indeed. want to see if the same was happening to them, in their own houses.

Sleeper12

blue_blue wrote:

Sounds like the OP is really tight, would peel an orange in his pocket.

blue_blue wrote:

Bought cheap white goods and didn't bother installing a proper heating system.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that your comments hold any truth.

OP seems to be a decent landlord. He could easily evict the tenant for breaking the lease in a dozen different ways. Op also has stated that he is not even charging full rent though this could come back to bite him in the arse further down the road.

The concerns op has raised are genuine concerns and not nit picking at tiny issues.

the_syco

pasquale83 wrote: »

They said they are going to put it back the way it was if they have to leave the house, but they are not making changes easy to revert back to the original situation.

Consider that when they do, it'll be done quickly and cheaply, leaving you with issues.

pasquale83 wrote: »

- landscapes the garden

If they take what they consider "theirs", your garden may suddenly look very barren and ill kept.

pasquale83 wrote: »

- added a tap in the garden making a hole through the wall

If taken out, will they also take the connection to the mains as well? Could cause an issue if taken. Also, if the hole wasn't sealed correctly, and the pipes freeze & cause leaks during the winter; will the tenant be expecting the OP to fix the issue that the tenant created?

pasquale83 wrote: »

- added a wooden stove in the sitting room

What was there beforehand? And check the ceiling; is it any blacker? Is it installed correctly? Also check if your insurance allows it, and if so, does it need to be installed by someone certified?

pasquale83 wrote: »

- changed the main door keys

If they give you a copy, grand. Personally, I'd changed the deadbolt when I moved into the last place (in Toronto), as the previous tenant was a crackhead who got evicted after not paying rent for 6 months.
The landlord was happy I had done so, and refunded me the money spent when I gave her the new key.

Got a text 3 months later stating that he couldn't access the apartment (as no-one was home at 11am on a weekday), as he needed to get kitchen appliances (LoL?) that he claimed to own. Ignored said texts.

pasquale83 wrote: »

- painted the walls

Annoying, but how awful is the colour?

pasquale83 wrote: »

- changed the washing machine, fridge and electric oven

What happened to the old ones? Do they still have them? Have they sold them? When they move out, and they take them with them, you'll have to shell out cash for replacement units.

bubblypop wrote: »

Why anyone would want to get rid of tenants who treat the house like their own home & make improvements is beyond me!

If they decide to take anything they bought with them when they leave, the OP will be left with a destroyed house.

pasquale83 wrote: »

They said they are going to put it back the way it was if they have to leave the house

OmegaGene wrote: »

cost you a small fortune in lost rent etc

To reiterate this point; it may cost the OP a small fortune when they do move out, if they take everything they bought with them.

=-=

OP; ask if they've kept the old white goods. If they have, great. If not, and they intend to bring what they bought with them when they leave, get legal advice and consider eviction before the 6 months, as you may find yourself with a very bare house when they do leave.

Cuddlesworth

seamus wrote: »

"My tenant has poured thousands of euro and hours of his time into professionally upgrading my property, what do I do?"

"Demand that he remove it all and put it back the way he was, then evict him!"

Granted that was only one or two posters, but fncking hell.

There is a huge difference between a person who does good looking work to your property and a person who does good work to your property. Most people find that out the hard way.

I'd get a proper chimney sweep out for the fire to begin with. Most good ones won't touch a badly installed unit for insurance reasons.

andekwarhola

Beats them wrecking the place but they should definitely ask first.

We also have a tenant who has made a lot of improvements but did ask first. We don't charge market rent though as she's a good tenant with a family.

I'd have a polite word with your tenants about agreeing renovations in advance with you unless it's just painting and whatnot.

The key thing isn't a biggy imo. You're not supposed to be going around there without prior arrangement with them anyway. As for the security implications, they could easily cut spare keys for the locks anyway so you should change the locks if tenants change no matter what.

listermint

It kinda feels like many dont have a clue how easy it is to put an outside tap on. With minimal fuss. Its not a big deal any average basic Diyer could do that let alone a Builder.

This thread seems alot of fuss over nothing. Everything they did would be classified as normal on the continent as long as they return it to the condition they found it.

But frankly going solely on the OPs post they would have to degrade the condition to do so.

These tenants sound great because they have respect for and want to improve the place.

and NO that doesnt meant they have an ownership claim on it. Thats ridiculous.

skallywag

listermint wrote: »

Everything they did would be classified as normal on the continent as long as they return it to the condition they found it.

That's completely wrong.

It would be only be classified as normal if they told the owners first.

I am not sure why so many poster's on this thread actually think that you can make such changes to a rental property on the continent without the owner's consent. Has anyone who is making this point actually lived there?

seamus

pasquale83 wrote: »

they are changes. they are improvements if I like them. period.

You don't live there though, so you don't have to like them
If they increase the value of the property, then they are improvements.

indeed. want to see if the same was happening to them, in their own houses.

You should avoid taking it personally. This is a business transaction. The renter should do the property owner the respect of asking him, but don't take personal offence to the fact that the tenant is modifying his home to his personal taste.

andekwarhola

skallywag wrote: »

That's completely wrong.

It would be only be classified as normal if they told the owners first.

I am not sure why so many poster's on this thread actually think that you can make such changes to a rental property on the continent without the owner's consent. Has anyone who is making this point actually lived there?

People in here seem to fond of evoking The Continent (™) as a panacea to all the accommodation woes that ever there was and absolves one from basic manners when dealing with your Evil Landlord.

listermint

skallywag wrote: »

That's completely wrong.

It would be only be classified as normal if they told the owners first.

I am not sure why so many poster's on this thread actually think that you can make such changes to a rental property on the continent without the owner's consent. Has anyone who is making this point actually lived there?

Yes and Yes,

We have a disfunctional market where for example a Tenant looking for a 5 year lease would be seen as an utter lunatic. :rolleyes:

listermint

andekwarhola wrote: »

People in here seem to fond of evoking The Continent (™) as a panacea to all the accommodation woes that ever there was and absolves one from basic manners when dealing with your Evil Landlord.

There are evil landlords, then there are just plain silly ones.

There are also ones that recognise that making such changes doesnt make the property convert to ownership of the tenant.

Which as i already stated is ludicrous.

Ray Palmer

OP if they are saying they will fix and make good anything they have changed there is a simple solution. You increase their deposit to pay for a professional to do it and retain it if they don't.

Nobody can complain that you inact a form of insurance. Your white goods being left in storage has a good possibility of being damaged so you need to cover them too.

What they have done is exceptional

Sleeper12

Ray Palmer wrote:

OP if they are saying they will fix and make good anything they have changed there is a simple solution. You increase their deposit to pay for a professional to do it and retain it if they don't.

This will break the lease and landlord could end up in trouble.

OP already said that it's reduced rent. This most likely means that he has a reduced deposit.

Any landlord not wanting to change the market value should be getting 3 months deposit at least. imo

Garibaldi?

I cannot understand people thinking it's ok for anybody to make changes to cooking equipment without first consulting the house owner.This is a Health and Safety issue. The painting etc is just cosmetic and, if the worst came to the worst, a landlord without a key would be justified in forcing entry if there were a fire or some other emergency. But the stove!

Sleeper12

Garibaldi? wrote:

I cannot understand people thinking it's ok for anybody to make changes to cooking equipment without first consulting the house owner.This is a Health and Safety issue. The painting etc is just cosmetic and, if the worst came to the worst, a landlord without a key would be justified in forcing entry if there were a fire or some other emergency. But the stove!

Carbon monoxide would be my greatest fear if not done correctly.

handlemaster

BoneIdol wrote: »

Sounds like they have upgraded the house off their own bat. You should consider a months free rent or a discount at least. Fair is fair.

The joker has landed

boege

Surprised how so few posts have mentioned the letting agreement. Both parties sign it which means they agree to abide by the terms contained therein.

If the OP has a letting agreement them maybe he should read it. They normally contain tenant covenants. There are also landlord covenants. If either side breaks these covenants then they are technically breaching the agreement.

Its pretty standard in letting agreements not to change locks, at all. Its also pretty standard that alternations are also not allowed, at all.

If the OP has not used a letting agreement then maybe he should have one because clearly the two sides have different views about the letting.

Sleeper12

boege wrote:

Its pretty standard in letting agreements not to change locks, at all. Its also pretty standard that alternations are also not allowed, at all.

I think every one can agree that it's in just about every lease that permission is required for alterations.

Many landlords love foreign tenants. Particularly tenants from the likes of Poland. A lot of these don't bother the landlord at all. Sounds wonderful but the downside is that he's making repairs himself. That's fine for the little things but if come across some working on the fusebox and gas boiler. This can be very dangerous.