Will you download the contact tracing app?

plodder · 10-07-2020 1:27pm

Data Protection Commission satisfied there are no issues with Covid tracker app

The DPC hasn't been afraid to have a go at the government in the past, eg with the Public Services Card. So, this might be re-assuring for some people, though clearly not all.

Paranoid Bob · 10-07-2020 2:38pm

I think a very relevant and current issue here is that the R number in Ireland is at or above 1 again. Keeping the R number at or below 1 is one of the key measures for re-opening the economy. If it stays high then stage 4 may be delayed and if it gets much higher then there is a risk we'll have to go back to a more restrictive lockdown for a while.

Please, for the sake of all the people whose livelihoods depend on workplaces being open and for the sake of the economy; not to mention for the sake of protecting the health of vulnerable people:
Wash you hands.
Follow social distancing guidance.
Wear a mask on public transport and in public indoor spaces.
Limit social interaction.
Install this app.
Isolate if required.

If we don't do all we can to limit the spread of the virus then we'll look back on early July as that brief window of blissful freedom before the country shut down again.

KyussB · 10-07-2020 2:40pm

Well, I can't discuss the technical details further - but the Electronic Frontier Foundation is a lot less definitive - and people such as the technical program manager at HackerOne, among others, are also not definitive about it and highlight concerns.

Hrududu · 10-07-2020 2:44pm

I had read earlier in the week that you could install the app on iPhone 6 as long as you updated the version of iOS to 13 but looks like that is for iPhone 6S as opposed to the iPhone 6. I think the highest version of iOS you can put on the iPhone 6 is 12.x

the corpo · 10-07-2020 3:14pm

So I installed the app on iphone 11 the night it became available. Glanced at it the first couple of days, checked in with no symptoms etc. Just launched it for the first time in a couple of days and it made me set it up as new, put my number in again etc., and has no history of my previous check in's.
So, what has caused it to reset? Has it not been active for the last few days?

Has anyone else noticed this? Pretty major bug if you need to load it on a daily basis to keep it running...

ACitizenErased · 10-07-2020 3:25pm

the corpo wrote: »

So I installed the app on iphone 11 the night it became available. Glanced at it the first couple of days, checked in with no symptoms etc. Just launched it for the first time in a couple of days and it made me set it up as new, put my number in again etc., and has no history of my previous check in's.
So, what has caused it to reset? Has it not been active for the last few days?

Has anyone else noticed this? Pretty major bug if you need to load it on a daily basis to keep it running...

Was involved in testing and have it downloaded for a few days and never seen this happen.

plodder · 10-07-2020 3:42pm

the corpo wrote: »

So I installed the app on iphone 11 the night it became available. Glanced at it the first couple of days, checked in with no symptoms etc. Just launched it for the first time in a couple of days and it made me set it up as new, put my number in again etc., and has no history of my previous check in's.
So, what has caused it to reset? Has it not been active for the last few days?

Has anyone else noticed this? Pretty major bug if you need to load it on a daily basis to keep it running...

They should have some form of support function for the app. I notice that on Android anyway, the developer contact is listed as the email address "digital@hse.ie". You could try emailing them.

the corpo · 10-07-2020 3:49pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Was involved in testing and have it downloaded for a few days and never seen this happen.

Aye, it's odd. I turned bluetooth for a minute earlier for an unrelated reason, wonder does that cause a reboot.

Also, and this may be common, I've not read back too many pages, but under both the Data protection and Terms and Conditions items, I'm getting blank pages, saying the items could not be loaded.

Drumpot · 10-07-2020 10:07pm

I keep getting a warning on The app.

I didn’t change any settings and it worked fine initially when installed. Anybody else having this issue?

KildareP · 10-07-2020 10:24pm

Drumpot wrote: »

I keep getting a warning on The app.

I didn’t change any settings and it worked fine initially when installed. Anybody else having this issue?

Myself and the other half both getting this 3-4 times a day. Moving around (eg walk to the shops and back, heading to work and back) seems to trigger it for us.

Google showing lots of people reporting similar in numerous countries with their own apps.

Drumpot · 10-07-2020 10:27pm

KildareP wrote: »

Myself and the other half both getting this 3-4 times a day. Moving around (eg walk to the shops and back, heading to work and back) seems to trigger it for us.

Google showing lots of people reporting similar in numerous countries with their own apps.

It’s annoying but I’m more concerned that it’s doing it’s job and logging my trips so it functions correctly.

KildareP · 10-07-2020 10:30pm

Drumpot wrote: »

It’s annoying but I’m more concerned that it’s doing it’s job and logging my trips so it functions correctly.

The consensus online is that it is, it's just a bug.

robinph · 10-07-2020 10:32pm

KildareP wrote: »

Myself and the other half both getting this 3-4 times a day. Moving around (eg walk to the shops and back, heading to work and back) seems to trigger it for us.

Google showing lots of people reporting similar in numerous countries with their own apps.

Possibly some mobile network needs to reboot their signal mast because its defaulted to thinking its setup in China or something?

Capt'n Midnight · 10-07-2020 11:11pm

KyussB wrote: »

Well, I can't discuss the technical details further - but the Electronic Frontier Foundation is a lot less definitive - and people such as the technical program manager at HackerOne, among others, are also not definitive about it and highlight concerns.

Re the EFF link does the Irish app up load daily diagnosis keys to the public registry, ???

Kismet and similar can already locate and track mobiles from Wifi and Bluetooth and DECT
You can buy mobile phone base stations if you want to roll your own stingray type sniffer.

EU directives means that mobile phone companies MUST keep certain metadata like times and locations and called numbers and IP address for a LOT longer than two weeks.

Google and Apple will try and hide your data. If only because they don't want to give it away for free.

The Irish Secret Service is the best in the world because nobody knows they exist :pac:
And if they didn't already have your data (that is if they actually if actually they existed) they could ask GCHQ, BND , DGSE, CNI , SAEPO or the MIVD

If you are paranoid you may have come across the Chinese social credit system. And seen the picture where CCTV camera operators can see way too much info about people there. The truly paranoid would hide in the noise rather than stand out by not having a phone.

10-07-2020 11:18pm

KildareP wrote: »

The consensus online is that it is, it's just a bug.

Where you seeing this consensus?

YFlyer · 10-07-2020 11:19pm

What is the purpose and benefit of this app?

Capt'n Midnight · 10-07-2020 11:32pm

YFlyer wrote: »

What is the purpose and benefit of this app?

Benefit is it speeds up contact tracing so people can self-isolate earlier.

You have to self report and get a six digit code from the HSE before the app anonymously alerts others that they may have been in proximity to someone who might have had symptoms.

YFlyer · 10-07-2020 11:50pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Benefit is it speeds up contact tracing so people can self-isolate earlier.

You have to self report and get a six digit code from the HSE before the app anonymously alerts others that they may have been in proximity to someone who might have had symptoms.

Thanks.

What is the cut off point for proximity in both time and distance?

I would only self isolate if someone I'm in regular or occasional contact got infected. A blip on my phone that some randomer who was found to be infected was in close proximity to me. I would insist on a Covid19 test as soon as possible.

KyussB · 10-07-2020 11:55pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Re the EFF link does the Irish app up load daily diagnosis keys to the public registry, ???

Kismet and similar can already locate and track mobiles from Wifi and Bluetooth and DECT
You can buy mobile phone base stations if you want to roll your own stingray type sniffer.

EU directives means that mobile phone companies MUST keep certain metadata like times and locations and called numbers and IP address for a LOT longer than two weeks.

Google and Apple will try and hide your data. If only because they don't want to give it away for free.

The Irish Secret Service is the best in the world because nobody knows they exist :pac:
And if they didn't already have your data (that is if they actually if actually they existed) they could ask GCHQ, BND , DGSE, CNI , SAEPO or the MIVD

If you are paranoid you may have come across the Chinese social credit system. And seen the picture where CCTV camera operators can see way too much info about people there. The truly paranoid would hide in the noise rather than stand out by not having a phone.

Not able to discuss any of that in the thread now, but I would otherwise. The EFF link is relevant in what it discusses about the Exposure API and how that functions - as that's what the covid app uses.

The issues I was discussing before (and can't discuss now) were just different types of privacy/security issues - which are no less significant due to the existence of other means of tracking or privacy issues.

YFlyer · 11-07-2020 12:11am

KyussB wrote: »

Not able to discuss any of that in the thread now, but I would otherwise. The EFF link is relevant in what it discusses about the Exposure API and how that functions - as that's what the covid app uses.

The issues I was discussing before (and can't discuss now) were just different types of privacy/security issues - which are no less significant due to the existence of other means of tracking or privacy issues.

How affected is it? Actually is there any papers on the traceability potential of these apps?

I can understand low field nuclear magnetic resonance in finding pockets of oil in the ground. I can also understand that having your smart phone, you could get advertisements from a shop when you pass by it.

An app to pick up that you were in contact with a person that was found to be infected. I'm having my doubts.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-07-2020 12:15am

YFlyer wrote: »

Thanks.

What is the cut off point for proximity in both time and distance?

I would only self isolate if someone I'm in regular or occasional contact got infected. A blip on my phone that some randomer who was found to be infected was in close proximity to me. I would insist on a Covid19 test as soon as possible.

Time 14 days.

And remember it doesn't upload share anything unless you get a code from the HSE and even then the sharing is anonymous. It only shares a changing random number and it's up to the other phones to figure out if they've seen the random number before.

Distance varies because of reflections and pockets. It's a compromise but you'd most likely smell a smoker in that distance.

You could do way better by having both the front back cameras doing facial recognition but that would be a real privacy concern.

robinph · 11-07-2020 12:56am

YFlyer wrote: »

Thanks.

What is the cut off point for proximity in both time and distance?

I would only self isolate if someone I'm in regular or occasional contact got infected. A blip on my phone that some randomer who was found to be infected was in close proximity to me. I would insist on a Covid19 test as soon as possible.

It's only going to give you a warning if the app thinks you've been in close proximity to someone for a long duration that then subsequently gets a positive result.

If you drive from home, to the shop, to work and back home again then it's not going to pick-up anyone else that you walk past in the street as having been a contact, just those who you were sat in the office with all day.

However if you spend half an hour on the bus each morning on the way to work, then go for an extended pub lunch, then go to another couple of pubs in the evening before getting another bus back home again you could have been in close proximity to quiet a number of people who might then test positive and you'd have no idea who any of them were. That is where the app comes in and it will notify you if one of them tests positive.

Worztron · 11-07-2020 9:47am

GooglePlus wrote: »

Why would you want the code readily available to manipulate?

You misunderstand how open-source software licensing works. The author of the HSE C19 app still has control over it. Please read: https://computer.howstuffworks.com/question435.htm

Worztron · 11-07-2020 9:49am

murpho999 wrote: »

Because then anybody can change it.

Also I don't think Apple allow open source, not sure about Google.

Plenty of info can be found here.

You misapprehend how open-source programs work. The author of the HSE C19 app will remain in control of it's code. Please read: https://computer.howstuffworks.com/question435.htm

Worztron · 11-07-2020 9:50am

timmy_mallet wrote: »

They can only change the code if the maintainer (HSE) accepts a change, and deploys that change to the app store, and you download the update.

Exactly.

KyussB · 11-07-2020 12:22pm

YFlyer wrote: »

How affected is it? Actually is there any papers on the traceability potential of these apps?

I can understand low field nuclear magnetic resonance in finding pockets of oil in the ground. I can also understand that having your smart phone, you could get advertisements from a shop when you pass by it.

An app to pick up that you were in contact with a person that was found to be infected. I'm having my doubts.

I'm not really able to discuss it in the thread anymore, but if you run Android just make sure you're either on 10, or if you're on 8 or 9 make sure you got a security update since February - that is a different thing to the traceability though.

robinph · 11-07-2020 1:36pm

YFlyer wrote: »

An app to pick up that you were in contact with a person that was found to be infected. I'm having my doubts.

Ignore what KyrussB is saying as they are talking about something completely different and some perceived problems with the Android OS that Google are aware of and have patched, or is not really the issue it's being claimed depending on which bug they are posting about at the time.

Regarding the app it is just communicating with other people who have the app on their phones. They are then sharing random codes with each other. These codes are in no way linkable back to you but just a record that your phone was near the other phone for a period of time. In the event that one of you tests positive those random codes get uploaded so that the other persons phone can be told that it was near a phone of someone who tested positive and that you should then take extra precautions.

It's just a way to contact trace people who you might have sat next to on the bus, in the pub or coffee shop and have no idea of who they actually were.

KyussB · 11-07-2020 4:07pm

That's not an accurate take on what I've been discussing (and can't discuss now...), that poster has deliberately lied about what I've said several times so far in the thread - so don't take anything that posters says, about what I've discussed, as accurate.

There are a handful of issues, one of them patched with the right Android version, another is a more minor privacy issue that is still there and will probably remain permanently, and there are yet more issues and potential issues detailed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation and cybersecurity firms - none of which I can get into.

robinph · 11-07-2020 4:27pm

KyussB wrote: »

That's not an accurate take on what I've been discussing (and can't discuss now...), that poster has deliberately lied about what I've said several times so far in the thread - so don't take anything that posters says, about what I've discussed, as accurate.

There are a handful of issues, one of them patched with the right Android version, another is a more minor privacy issue that is still there and will probably remain permanently, and there are yet more issues and potential issues detailed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation and cybersecurity firms - none of which I can get into.

The question was about how the app works, but you've responded regarding the OS bugs that you are stuck trying to get people upset about.

KyussB · 11-07-2020 4:32pm

Doesn't matter what the question was about, you were making false claims about what I said again - which I told you not to do, repeatedly, because you keep forcing me to reply to correct your misrepresentations.

Do me the favour of not referencing me again in the thread, so you're not forcing me to correct continuous/unending misrepresentations of what I've said...

Will you download the contact tracing app?

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