Will you download the contact tracing app?

Miike

harringtonp wrote: »

OK. So either way you are made aware. And what happens in that conversation with the HSE ? I presume there is a standard procedure laid out rather than the contract tracer making it up as he goes along.

Depends on the exposure type. Generally the phone call consists of a screening for symptoms and advice on the need to self-isolate and how to do so effectively. If you meet criteria or are an at risk group you'll be scheduled for testing.

harringtonp

Miike wrote: »

Depends on the exposure type. Generally the phone call consists of a screening for symptoms and advice on the need to self-isolate and how to do so effectively. If you meet criteria or are an at risk group you'll be scheduled for testing.

For me, this is the crux of the matter and would be the decisive reason to use or not use the app.

If the HSE want large scale buy in (which they initially have judging by downloads), they need to be looking at offering a facility where anyone alerted is offered a cheap or free test at a local facility within a day and the result then returned the following day. In other words that person just has to isolate for 2 days assuming a negative result.

Just imagine you're feeling fine, not aware of any contact with positive cases and get the call. The caller is advising you to self isolate for 2 weeks but not offering you the facility to get tested. Even if you ignore the advice, you still have this worry that you wouldn't have otherwise had. You probably wouldn't use the app again and neither would your friends when they see how it played out.

This is why app usage needs to be coupled with an effective testing system.

AudreyHepburn

I downloaded it as soon as it came out. Why would you not? We’re in the middle of a global pandemic, surely we should be doing everything and anything we can to slow the spread of the virus?

As for those moaning about invasions of privacy and big brother style monitoring;

1.) that’s not how the app actually works. It’s not tacking every single step you take.

2.) if you are following the rules as you are meant then you really have nothing to fear anyway.

3.) how many of you use Facebook? Instagram? Snapchat? Twitter? You’ve already potentially exposed your personal data to the world long before this app came out and you’ll continue to do after this is all over if you continue to use social media apps.

This is a matter of life and death. There can be no excuses for being non compliant.

robinph

harringtonp wrote: »

In other words that person just has to isolate for 2 days assuming a negative result.

The problem there is that a negative test result doesn't prove anything, it just means you might not have it. It does make the probability that you don't have it higher, but it is not proof.

It still needs to be figured out what level of trust the world is putting into the test results when it comes back negative before we use that as a way to enable us to go back to living as before. If you have been in contact with someone who did test positive the most reliable proof that you didn't catch it from them is to wait a couple of weeks and see what happens.

hmmm

harringtonp wrote: »

If the HSE want large scale buy in (which they initially have judging by downloads), they need to be looking at offering a facility where anyone alerted is offered a cheap or free test at a local facility within a day and the result then returned the following day. In other words that person just has to isolate for 2 days assuming a negative result.

If you're a close contact of a case the advice appears to be to restrict your movements for 14 days. You will get a relatively quick test, but even then a negative does not mean you are in the clear - you still need to restrict your movements for 14 days because the virus can take that long to appear.

If you're a close contact and at risk of developing the disease, avoiding mixing with the public is the right thing to do, app or no app.

feelings

Can I sideload the app? Anyone know where to get it? It's geo locked to Irish/UK accounts it looks like.

plodder

Unless you've literally not been outside your house in two weeks (and therefore caught it off a family member) then I would think anyone notified by the app should be tested. And, a negative test has to have some significance that allows you some degree of movement short of quarantine.

Peregrinus

hmmm wrote: »

If you're a close contact of a case the advice appears to be to restrict your movements for 14 days. You will get a relatively quick test, but even then a negative does not mean you are in the clear - you still need to restrict your movements for 14 days because the virus can take that long to appear.

If you're a close contact and at risk of developing the disease, avoiding mixing with the public is the right thing to do, app or no app.

If you're a close contact of someone who has been diagnosed, you'll know that you are, and you'll be identified by standard contact tracing even without the use of the app. The app is more for identifying contact between relative strangers - the guy next to you on the bus, the person behind you in the queue at the ATM.

In these cases, if you have had a negative test, while it's still possible that you could turn out to be infected the chance is not high, and it would be a lot to ask for you to isolate yourself for 14 days. Plus, if the consequence of carrying the app was a signficant chance of being asked to self-isolate for 14 days regardless of your test outcome, a lot of people might be reluctant to carry or use the app, which would defeat the whole purpose.

The test isn't perfect, but it has a useful degree of reliablity, and if carrying the app gets a lot of potentially-infected people to get themselves tested, that's a win. We should think twice about undermining that by making very onerous demands. I think "if you have tested negative, be careful, exercise a h igh degree of caution for the rest of the 14 days and be vigilant for any sign at all that you should get a second test" is probably appropriate advice.

robinph

feelings wrote: »

Can I sideload the app? Anyone know where to get it? It's geo locked to Irish/UK accounts it looks like.

Not sure about Apple, but Google removed all geo restrictions for EU/EEA content sometime last week. They have a notification about this change in the Play Store, but the webpage that the article links to doesn't actually give more details other than tell you how to change country.

You just can't purchase content from outside of your home region, but downloading the Covid apps for any EU territory is possible from everywhere. You won't find the app in a search directly in the Play store, but following the link to the app from another page will work:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.covidtracker.hse&gl=GB

hmmm

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you're a close contact of someone who has been diagnosed, you'll know that you are, and you'll be identified by standard contact tracing even without the use of the app. The app is more for identifying contact between relative strangers - the guy next to you on the bus, the person behind you in the queue at the ATM.

The app is for close contacts where you spend more than 15 minutes in their close vicinity. Standing behind someone at an ATM for 5 minutes isn't going to trigger it, even if they were infected.

Standard contact tracing works reasonably well perhaps when we all have a small number of contacts, but it's very difficult to figure out who they were near on a bus, or sitting beside in a restaurant, and sometimes people are just simply forgetful.

If the app triggers, and you are contacted by the HSE and talk through their list of questions, and they decide you should be classified as a close contact it would be a good idea to take it very seriously. On the other hand, the phone call might find out that you were unlikely to be at risk (e.g. upstairs on a bus when the person infected was downstairs). I'd hope people would opt in to taking a phone call, it's better for everyone that way.

feelings

Thanks, my account is US, so no-go for me. I'll just create a dummy irish gmail address. Cheers

robinph wrote: »

Not sure about Apple, but Google removed all geo restrictions for EU/EEA content sometime last week. They have a notification about this change in the Play Store, but the webpage that the article links to doesn't actually give more details other than tell you how to change country.

You just can't purchase content from outside of your home region, but downloading the Covid apps for any EU territory is possible from everywhere. You won't find the app in a search directly in the Play store, but following the link to the app from another page will work:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.covidtracker.hse&gl=GB

robinph

feelings wrote: »

Thanks, my account is US, so no-go for me. I'll just create a dummy irish gmail address. Cheers

There are some US apps listed on here, no idea if they are using the same system or not though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_apps

KyussB

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I downloaded it as soon as it came out. Why would you not? We’re in the middle of a global pandemic, surely we should be doing everything and anything we can to slow the spread of the virus?

As for those moaning about invasions of privacy and big brother style monitoring;

1.) that’s not how the app actually works. It’s not tacking every single step you take.

2.) if you are following the rules as you are meant then you really have nothing to fear anyway.

3.) how many of you use Facebook? Instagram? Snapchat? Twitter? You’ve already potentially exposed your personal data to the world long before this app came out and you’ll continue to do after this is all over if you continue to use social media apps.

This is a matter of life and death. There can be no excuses for being non compliant.

There are actually very good security reasons not to use it for many Android users - and it's not free of privacy issues either, though they are minor.

You assume everyone concerned about privacy has already given up all their privacy to Facebook/Instragram etc. - I've never seen anyone actually ask that - only ever assume that automatically...

Most people should be fine downloading the app - but everyone using it or thinking of using it, should keep a close eye on privacy and security issues related to use of the app, and know how that may affect them.

It's going to be a frequently changing situation as well, as there's a ton of research being done on the security of these types of apps now, and potential issues related to them and bluetooth etc. - with an already existing potential for development of exploits for some users - so people will need to keep an eye.

plodder

hmmm wrote: »

The app is for close contacts where you spend more than 15 minutes in their close vicinity. Standing behind someone at an ATM for 5 minutes isn't going to trigger it, even if they were infected.

Standard contact tracing works reasonably well perhaps when we all have a small number of contacts, but it's very difficult to figure out who they were near on a bus, or sitting beside in a restaurant, and sometimes people are just simply forgetful.

If the app triggers, and you are contacted by the HSE and talk through their list of questions, and they decide you should be classified as a close contact it would be a good idea to take it very seriously. On the other hand, the phone call might find out that you were unlikely to be at risk (e.g. upstairs on a bus when the person infected was downstairs). I'd hope people would opt in to taking a phone call, it's better for everyone that way.

It hadn't occurred to me before, that the app must be able to tell you when the contact occurred (but not where). So, that obviously helps the contact tracing evaluation and like you say, if the other person was sitting upstairs on a bus and you were downstairs then a test might not be necessary.

I assumed that all they knew was you were in contact sometime in the last 14 days, but not exactly when.

robinph

plodder wrote: »

It hadn't occurred to me before, that the app must be able to tell you when the contact occurred (but not where). So, that obviously helps the contact tracing evaluation and like you say, if the other person was sitting upstairs on a bus and you were downstairs then a test might not be necessary.

I assumed that all they knew was you were in contact sometime in the last 14 days, but not exactly when.

I get the impression that whilst the app knows when the contact occurs it doesn't tell you or anyone else.

If you met someone on the bus yesterday and they test positive today it will warn you. But if you met them 13 days ago before they submitted a positive result it might not bother telling you at all. But then if you also had met someone a week ago and someone else a couple of days ago who then all tested positive yesterday then maybe you are actually the Typhoid Mary and it would tell you and that is where the person doing the contact tracing can figure out what risk you are at, or present to others.

AdamD

robinph wrote: »

I get the impression that whilst the app knows when the contact occurs it doesn't tell you or anyone else.

If you met someone on the bus yesterday and they test positive today it will warn you. But if you met them 13 days ago before they submitted a positive result it might not bother telling you at all. But then if you also had met someone a week ago and someone else a couple of days ago who then all tested positive yesterday then maybe you are actually the Typhoid Mary and it would tell you and that is where the person doing the contact tracing can figure out what risk you are at, or present to others.

Its better off this way too, in the scenario presented above people would subjectively decide to not get tested, we don't need that ambiguity.

Miike

harringtonp wrote: »

For me, this is the crux of the matter and would be the decisive reason to use or not use the app.

If the HSE want large scale buy in (which they initially have judging by downloads), they need to be looking at offering a facility where anyone alerted is offered a cheap or free test at a local facility within a day and the result then returned the following day. In other words that person just has to isolate for 2 days assuming a negative result.

Just imagine you're feeling fine, not aware of any contact with positive cases and get the call. The caller is advising you to self isolate for 2 weeks but not offering you the facility to get tested. Even if you ignore the advice, you still have this worry that you wouldn't have otherwise had. You probably wouldn't use the app again and neither would your friends when they see how it played out.

This is why app usage needs to be coupled with an effective testing system.

Hey,
Yeah I understand what you're saying but it makes zero clinical sense to test everyone who has been exposed. It takes time for the viral genetic material to replicated to a point where rRT-PCT can detect it.

Eg: I met you in the shop this morning at 9am and at 11am the HSE confirmed I'm a positive case. You get a phone call today, the following day or even 2 days later telling you you've been in contact with a positive case. If they were to arrange a test on any of those days you'd likely return a 'not detected' result (even if you later went on to develop COVID19) because the viral genetic material has not yet reached a detectable level. When you start showing any symptoms that suggests you're at a level now where rRT-PCR can accurately detect the viral genetic material.

This is why we operate from case definitions and not test everyone and everything willy nilly.

I hope that makes sense

plodder

robinph wrote: »

I get the impression that whilst the app knows when the contact occurs it doesn't tell you or anyone else.

So I see now the information online about the app does say that the date of contact is shared, but it doesn't say a more detailed time is shared.

If you met someone on the bus yesterday and they test positive today it will warn you.

Right, but it doesn't know you were on a bus and I don't see how the contact tracer from the HSE could know that either without a detailed conversation with both yourself and the person who tested positive.

But if you met them 13 days ago before they submitted a positive result it might not bother telling you at all. But then if you also had met someone a week ago and someone else a couple of days ago who then all tested positive yesterday then maybe you are actually the Typhoid Mary and it would tell you and that is where the person doing the contact tracing can figure out what risk you are at, or present to others.

Agreed.

So, that goes back to what I said initially, that getting notified by the app, means you need a test generally speaking and the contact tracers will organise it. The online information seems to support this

Info online wrote:

You can enter your phone number into the app. You can change this setting at any time.

The app will only share your number with the HSE if you become a close contact. The HSE's contact tracing team will then phone you to arrange a test for coronavirus.

The app will also share the most recent date that you were in close contact with someone who tested positive for coronavirus. This is so we can give you the right health advice based on how long ago it has been since you were exposed to the virus.

barrymanilow

The app isn't compatible with my old but perfect for my needs 2017 phone so can't download it. Bit of an oversight to build the contact tracing app and then to put it out of reach for those with older phones.

Jim_Hodge

barrymanilow wrote: »

The app isn't compatible with my old but perfect for my needs 2017 phone so can't download it. Bit of an oversight to build the contact tracing app and then to put it out of reach for those with older phones.

Same here. It won't download to my 'old' phone either.

KathleenGrant

barrymanilow wrote: »

The app isn't compatible with my old but perfect for my needs 2017 phone so can't download it. Bit of an oversight to build the contact tracing app and then to put it out of reach for those with older phones.

I got my phone in 2016 and it downloaded perfectly for me.

harringtonp

I wonder about geolocation information. I gather it is not held on servers anywhere but does it contravene privacy regulations for the app to store your location information (when known) along with a timestamp and the generated key of people you are deemed to have had close contact with. If this happened it would allow the app show you where the close contact occurred and along with time you could better judge yourself what the risk is.

robinph

barrymanilow wrote: »

The app isn't compatible with my old but perfect for my needs 2017 phone so can't download it. Bit of an oversight to build the contact tracing app and then to put it out of reach for those with older phones.

Can you update your phone OS to a more recent version that is compatible?

plodder

harringtonp wrote: »

I wonder about geolocation information. I gather it is not held on servers anywhere but does it contravene privacy regulations for the app to store your location information (when known) along with a timestamp and the generated key of people you are deemed to have had close contact with. If this happened it would allow the app show you where the close contact occurred and along with time you could better judge yourself what the risk is.

The app does not store your location. It's not allowed to request it even.

There has been a lot of confusion over the fact that "location services" needing to be enabled on Android, which is a different thing. But, the app categorically does not have access to your location.

GarIT

barrymanilow wrote: »

The app isn't compatible with my old but perfect for my needs 2017 phone so can't download it. Bit of an oversight to build the contact tracing app and then to put it out of reach for those with older phones.

It wasnt an oversight, it was just how it has to be. The technology required only exists in the latest version of Google play services and iOS.

jack presley

Anyone noticing any battery drain? According to the battery app on my phone, "Covid-19 Exposure Logging" has used 10% of my battery over the past 10 days (and I've only had the app for 8).

mugsymugsy

jack presley wrote: »

Anyone noticing any battery drain? According to the battery app on my phone, "Covid-19 Exposure Logging" has used 10% of my battery over the past 10 days (and I've only had the app for 8).

I'll take 10% of battery usage if it potentially assists saving lives in a global pandemic

wonski

jack presley wrote: »

Anyone noticing any battery drain? According to the battery app on my phone, "Covid-19 Exposure Logging" has used 10% of my battery over the past 10 days (and I've only had the app for 8).

My stats below:

0.13% battery usage bluetooth(hardware)
0.12% covid19 app (software)

10% is crazy unless you don't use the phone at all (screen, Internet, GPS etc are where most of the battery usage goes)

YellowBucket

Bear in mind Health on the iPhone contains a lot more than the exposure monitoring and it’s bundling the battery use of all of it together. It’s also all the software related to all of the activity tracking, cardiac monitoring (if you’ve an Apple Watch) and so on.

My health app has used 3% of the battery over the last few days.

jack presley

YellowBucket wrote: »

Bear in mind Health on the iPhone contains a lot more than the exposure monitoring and it’s bundling the battery use of all of it together. It’s also all the software related to all of the activity tracking, cardiac monitoring (if you’ve an Apple Watch) and so on.

My health app has used 3% of the battery over the last few days.

That might explain it. Thanks.