Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Thread Closed  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
29-01-2009, 10:16   #136
shebop
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 42
Let's try and look at this from a legal point of view and add some perspective here:

The record companies (I don't know which ones) purposely targeted Eircom to 'test' whether or not an ISP would be willing to comply with regulating the sharing of their intellectual property rights (IPR). This is absolutely nothing new, and similar legal proceedings have been brought against 'monopoly' ISPs like Eircom around the world. Very generally speaking, the record companies have had little or no grounds to enforce ISPs to comply for a plethora of reasons, one of the main reasons being, that an ISP is an intermediary and not responsible for the direct internet conduct of its users. Record companies are keen to test these cases in different jurisdictions to find an ISP weak enough to bend over and serve its needs and establish a precedence. It looks like they found that with Eircom.

Eircom's willingness to comply shows the absolute disregard and apathy they have towards their customers (what's new, I hear you say?).

What this boils down to is the record companies being sore over the lack of control over technologies THEY fund to invent, ultimately taking it out on the consumer by finding ISPs as pathetically weak and anti-consumer as Eircom.

As a lot of you already have mentioned, there is a lot of hot air involved with threats made against P2P downloaders. The law simply is not adequately reflective of the real status out there, and bully tactics employed by record companies to trump the consumer time and time again are frankly tiresome.

Eircom on the other hand, show they have no backbone, no actual awareness of the overall ethics behind intellectual property and licence agreements 'standardised' by rich fatcats, and quite frankly are a coward.

Why support them??

It's very simple- change ISP and slap Eircom for being so downright disrespectful to you as their customer, or simply ignore them, continue downloading and be rest assured, that unless you are sharing files en masse, profiting or being 'unreasonable' with your downloads, then there is very little as it currently stands that can be brought against you.

Eircom Employees, if you are reading this, you ought to be ashamed of your wholly regressive and cowardly treatment in serving and representing your customers. This test case could have set wonderful precedent for not just Irish law, but intellectual property law in general. You failed to take a challenge on the basis of fear, lack of information and quite evidently from what is coming out in the news today, ignorance.
shebop is offline  
Advertisement
29-01-2009, 10:16   #137
jor el
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 16,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoshytoshy View Post
How can the record companies prove one person is a repeat offender ,without eircom sharing information ?
The record companies won't know anything about the individuals involved. They also won't know anything about repeat offenders, as the IP addresses are shared, and reset every 24 hours. It will be up to eircom to sanction repeat offenders, or those who ignore the warnings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkestlord View Post
Are eircon planning to monitor what websites you go on or are they watching what you download.
They won't be monitoring anything, apart from what they already monitor. All ISPs are required, by law, to keep logs. They will not be doing anything new because of this agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20goto10 View Post
There should be a mass exodus from Eircom, hit them where it hurts and they'll change their minds quick enough and it will also give the other ISP's a reason to not take up this agreement.

p.s How much dosh are Eircom getting for this "agreement"? It must be something substantial.
I doubt there'll be any change in eircom's customer base, or minimal anyway. The number of people effected by this will be low. The other ISPs are also sure to follow suit, unless they want a lengthy, and possibly costly, legal battle on their hands. If eircom aren't fighting, the others will likely not fight either. There was no mention of money, and I would guess that there will be none.


This is not a bad thing. eircom have saved themselves a costly legal battle, a cost that would ultimately be borne by the customers. They have saved their customers from being caught up in legal threats, and fines, from IRMA (which has happened in the past). IRMA and it's cohorts, can now be placated by seeing that "something" is being done, where as before nothing was being done, to stem the illegal sharing of their property. Your details will not be passed on to other companies, you will not be sued, you will not be fined, you will not face court appearances.

This is a good thing, for pretty much everyone, except if you're one of the ones sharing thousands of copyrighted music tracks.
jor el is offline  
(2) thanks from:
29-01-2009, 10:20   #138
lynchie
Registered User
 
lynchie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Kill, Kildare
Posts: 1,824
And for those wondering about Eircom being able to trace the IP address, their accounting package radius, will log every log-on / log-off attempt in a database which records your telephone number, ip address, bytes downloaded, bytes uploaded and length of time online with a date / time stamp. So even if you get a different IP address from their DHCP servers every day, once Eircom have a date/time and ip address they can say which telephone number had that ip address and from there they can get your account number to identify the household.
lynchie is online now  
Thanks from:
29-01-2009, 10:23   #139
watty
Registered User
 
watty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The Research Station
Posts: 31,163
Some Clarity

What Record companies do:

By various methods[1] they gather the IP address and time/Date. Unless the "whatever it is you are downloading from" has your real IP address, you can't get the packets back. Dynamic or Static IP is not relevant.

They give the IP and date/time to the ISP (eircom in this case), they know from the address range which ISP it is as that is all public. They have no idea where it is or who it is.

What the ISPs do:
They can almost instantly accurately know who was using that IP, if the time /date is correct. Sometimes it's an hour or hours out due to UTC/Summertime/Local time issues. In which case the wrong user is identified.
The ISP gives NO information at all to the RIAA or whoever.

The ISP then contacts the user...

Why an ISP might like this
Heavy P2P users are not much liked by ANY ISP. They don't care if all of them are cut off (light / occasional ones they don't care about). About 10% of users can eat 80% of capacity. Hence Caps, throttling and such.

Deep packet inspection (if it was ISP responsibility to see who is running P2P) has a number of problems:
  • It's very expensive.
  • Encryption and port 80/443 connections probably defeat it.
  • It can't reliably identify copyright material or even legal BBC/Sky/C4 P2P
Getting the IP from 3rd party with assurance that it is used for illegal P2P only requires them to change the T&C to say "If a copyright holder gives us an IP that is identified with your connection at the time and they assure us it was for illegal file sharing or download we reserve the right to disconnect you" or similar.

It becomes someone else's problem, costs them nothing and even improves the network more than a Cap + throttling does.

I'd assume that the ISP will check traffic of the user identified and not bother issuing a notice for light users. The RIAA or copyright holder never actually gets to know who is issued with warnings or disconnected as the Data Protection Act would be broken.

Issues:
There needs to be some right of appeal. There is zero transparency as to how the Copyright holders get the IP.
  • The hour can be wrong on time = Wrong User
  • Landlord may be sharing the connection via Router and Switch to 10 separate tenants without telling ISP. (ISPs hate this). = Which User?
  • The clandestinely obtained information could be simply wrong.

[1] Various Methods:
The RIAA and others have various schemes using 3rd party companies:
  • set up their own bittorrent clients
  • set up fake (but possibly functional) trackers
  • possibly even newsgroup or other servers
  • hack the trackers to get connection details
  • install root kits, trojans etc to monitor on the users PC
The 3rd party companies don't tell the Copyright owners exactly how they do what they do to try and keep the RIAA's hands clean.

Finally
  • The onus is on the Copyright holder to prove than an IP at the stated time was used to infringe their copyright. This is not transparent nor provable nor does there appear to be an appeals mechanism. However if you never get near your Cap you might not ever be warned. The ISP is only doing this as it absolves them of spending serious money, saves them money and makes it someone else's problem.
  • The price of CDs and DVDs is not relevant to breaking copyright. I agree that it's proven in history than piracy, smuggling and forging increases as the price is artificially increased. Piracy indeed is greatly reduced when the physical media is more affordable. People do prefer the real media
  • Yes, the price of legal downloads is often higher per album and lower quality than a CD. This is stupid. DVDs on re-release are often cheaper than re-released CD. New CDs can sometimes be the same price as new DVDs. This is stupidity. But CD and DVD prices have fallen.

Last edited by watty; 29-01-2009 at 14:40.
watty is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:23   #140
Orion
My karma just ran over your dogma
 
Orion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: /home/Orion
Posts: 9,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomashood10 View Post
Yeh the record companies will be, that's my point. And the record companies will be handing those IP's to Eircom. Those IP's will NOT pinpoint your PC within a network.

edit: http://whatismyipaddress.com/

Zoom all the way in, this is how close those recording companies are going to get to you.

Apparently I'm located in the middle of a river.

gg
Dear god. That's a general location based on the information available to that site which is shag all.
Eircon, on the other hand, have actual logs which tie that actual IP address to your actual account. It's not a geographical location - it's an accounting & billing detail. The letter will be to the bill payer for that account.
Orion is offline  
(3) thanks from:
Advertisement
29-01-2009, 10:27   #141
PaddyTheNth
Registered User
 
PaddyTheNth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: On Bequest
Posts: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoshytoshy View Post
Someone just mentioned about the ip renewed after reboot.
No one has a way of knowing it's the same person except for eircom.
They're the only people who need to know, and your IP won't actually change unless you reboot the router...and even if you do, it's not always guaranteed. Even so, Eircom still know exactly which IP is used by any account at a given time, and this IP is what they are supplied with by the anti-p2p people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkestlord View Post
Are eircon planning to monitor what websites you go on or are they watching what you download.
No, they'll just be handed a list of IP addresses by the anti-p2p folks and they'll match those addresses to the accounts which were using them at the time and say 'you've been caught sharing files, stop it or we'll disconnect you.'

And to everyone using IP incorrectly, IP means Internet Protocol, not Internet Provider for ****s sake, as I think has been said by one person. I hate when articles are written by people who clearly don't have a clue what they're talking about.
PaddyTheNth is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:27   #142
beefyjohn
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 19
It Simple.

Eircom monitors all there network usage and knows exactly what traffic is passing through it. they use servers to keep a record of exactly how much youve downloaded. thats how there able to put a cap on everybodys account.

They log all ips given to customers and if they have any intelligence at all more than likely an ip range will be associated to specific region. so your ip will be easy to monitor as it will retain the same subnet gateway and probably the same first 24 bits of your ip.

So in a nutshell we are all screwed and we all need to get off eircom dsl lines and that includes all the resellers as they come off the same lines.
beefyjohn is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:29   #143
shebop
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 42
Quote:
This is not a bad thing. eircom have saved themselves a costly legal battle, a cost that would ultimately be borne by the customers. They have saved their customers from being caught up in legal threats, and fines, from IRMA (which has happened in the past). IRMA and it's cohorts, can now be placated by seeing that "something" is being done, where as before nothing was being done, to stem the illegal sharing of their property. Your details will not be passed on to other companies, you will not be sued, you will not be fined, you will not face court appearances.
This reads as nothing more than cowardly to me on Eircom's part. How can Eircom customers be saved when they are being dictated as to what they can and can't do online? Let's not forget, a lot of p2p IS legal. It seems realistically much more problematic for record companies (or is it eircom who will have this onus) to fund in resources to be able to determine what files are being lawfully exchanged on p2p networks?

Code, thankfully dictates.

Copyright is an essential tool and of course a very necessary right to creators seeking to protect their work.

HOWEVER, time and time again technology companies show absolute disregard to the essence that is copyright;

e.g. Why suddenly is it ok for record companies to bully ISPs/the consumer against a technological flaw(?)/reality regarding p2p sharing, when, for example, they lay silent on the fact that 18 months ago, according to Irish copyright law, it was ILLEGAL for people to purchase a CD, rip it onto a computer and sync it with their iPod? Why were the record companies not sueing Apple or dishing out legal threats to mp3-player users then?

This boils down to the fact that record companies are bitter and sore about technology they funded to create work against lining their pockets and are using a distorted approach to copyright law to try and rectify things. Copyright and current technology (particularly code) simply open up a whole other kettle of fish that, if properly test, would inevitably work against the record companies. How Eircom nonetheless complied is something else and something their users should be aware of ....
shebop is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:33   #144
lostexpectation
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,976
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/01...inst-its-users The difference is that an ISP is not a court; and its customers will never have a chance to defend themselves against the recording industry's accusations and "proof". To whom, without judicial oversight, has the ISP obligated itself to provide meaningful due process and to ensure that the standard of proof has been met?
lostexpectation is offline  
Advertisement
29-01-2009, 10:39   #145
shebop
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 42
Anyone willing to give this 3 strike deal a go then? I wonder what would happen ... oh no, we might get cut off and have to change ISP? How would it stand if other areas of copyright were brough in to a defence. e.g. Boards.ie using that YouTube link which is another intermediary-harbourer of content trumping copyright .... it's a minefield.
shebop is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:41   #146
L31mr0d
Registered User
 
L31mr0d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 7,986
I personally welcome this decision by Eircom. Like was said the less torrent users out there the better.

Although, I can't see how this will have any effect on users of file storage sites and usenet, who usually download archive files from an index that have no descriptive details in their titles. Couple this with SSL and encryption and I'd say it will be a while before anything like this will have a large effect on piracy. I'd say the only apparent change will be the amount of people jumping ship from Eircom once they get wind of this.

I'd say the only people who will get caught out by this are your beboers with limewire who don't really know what they're doing anyway.

Personally, I haven't downloaded music in ages, I prefer to use music streaming sites like grooveshark and songza. I rarely commute so I only really listen to music when I'm at a PC.

Last edited by L31mr0d; 29-01-2009 at 10:45.
L31mr0d is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:42   #147
apope8
Registered User
 
apope8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 249
Much easier way to download music.
1) Find a public music video on youtube
2) Download the video using realplayer or something else.
3) Use a program like total video converter to extract the audio as an mp3!

Takes about 2mins altogether!

Done, Dusted, Legal!!!
apope8 is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:43   #148
ZeRoY
Registered User
 
ZeRoY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: BeHinD yOu
Posts: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by corkonian0110 View Post
good for Ireland, thats rubbish - as mentioned earlier, the monitoring of ip addresses and record company's reporting it to Eircom - = embarrasing for Ireland.
This has been the case for at least the past 2 years .... Mediasentry has been sending copyrights infringements to ISP but since they had no obligation to do anything with the reports noone got warned/disconnected.

As for the detection, how easy can it be? Just use any Torrent / P2P type software and you can get a list of IP connected to the trackers.... a submission to www.ripe.net to match IP with ISP and your are done.
ZeRoY is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:43   #149
Orion
My karma just ran over your dogma
 
Orion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: /home/Orion
Posts: 9,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by L31mr0d View Post
I personally welcome this decision by Eircom. Like was said the less torrent users out there the better.
I agree - more bandwidth for us usenet leechers
Orion is offline  
29-01-2009, 10:43   #150
barnicles
Closed Account
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,825
Mostly what Media Defender etc. Do is make decoy torrents or seed decoy files on proper torrents. They also use all the bandwidth of the seeders, so leechers torrents will crawl.
barnicles is offline  
Thread Closed

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search