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View Poll Results: What do you believe happens when we die
We simply cease to exist (like before we were born) 511 79.47%
We go to heaven for eternal life 36 5.60%
We keep reincarnating 38 5.91%
We stay around the earth as ghosts 7 1.09%
Other 51 7.93%
Voters: 643. You may not vote on this poll

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13-09-2020, 10:29   #196
nthclare
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Originally Posted by looksee View Post
Now you leave 'hippy tree spirits' out of this, I am quite partial to tree spirits. At least there is evidence for trees, and spirits can mean anything you want it to. And there is no dogma or fund raisers. I can happily contemplate a tree.
Yes there's an after life for tree's, I know where there's a huge yew tree that's absolutely amazing.

Taxus can be a life saver too

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...85481451500040

It can also be used to make a long bow, and has the potential to kill and if ingested it could also poison you.

Wherever it grows it drops needle's which basically makes the soil sterile, and it can kill farm animals too.

The druid's thought the yew trees were magical, maybe they are in some ways.

I'm glad you believe in tree spirit's, and of the mind that spirit's can be anything you want them to be.

Tree's are sacred that's for sure, sacred in my view and probably the most important thing on this planet.
But sadly too many people are caught up in other things to appreciate the beauty of the trees.

Trees are good and sorry for bringing the hippy tree spirit's into this.

But between the Oak, Yew and Hawthorn they're my top three tree's

Look I'm off on another tangent again...
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13-09-2020, 10:54   #197
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Why me particularly? I see no reason to make it about me. You seem to be unable to substantiate the existence of the mythical creatures and spirits to which you refer in any way. Let alone for "my coginition" personally.



Except it really does. And declaring what belongs in this forum, or not, is entirely outside your purview to be honest. The post above mine is nail on the head really.

Rather than school you on why you are so wrong on what belongs here however, I shall allow Micheal Nugent to do it for me. If your attention span can not hold to 3 minutes 20 seconds of video, its actually quite watchable in 1.25x speed too.



That is one possibility. The other possibility is of course the atheists you describe simply do not actually exist. I can not know either way of course. All I have are strong suspicions borne of experience from your posting history on the forum up to and including your belief in the existence of quite a lot of things there is absolutely no evidence for from "souls" to some kind of hippy tree spirits.
I never mentioned hippy spirits, it was yourself and someone else who came up with that one.
I ain't no hippy to be honest, I look and dress more like a biker or heavy metal dude rather than a hippy.
And I am definitely not a hippy that's for sure.
As for the Atheists I described, they definitely exist and a lot of them don't really agree with Michael Nugent either whos definitely an activist and Athiest Ireland are not representing anyone only their own group or committee.
Unless of course people will put him up there on a pedestal like an architypical leader or something.
He's not very funny either, I prefer Billy Connolly or Dave Allen having a skit about organised religion.
They are funny he's not.
Michael sounds like a nice guy, but his humour and metaphors have been done for year's and he's just trying to be funny there.
I was in Galway one day and came across him, he's far too much of an activist for my liking.

I like the way you suggest that my attention span could be questionable, I can sit for hour's and design a park or garden, do leather craft and woodcraft for hours on end.

Questioning my attention span is just throwing a spanner in the works,and a few little digs here and there isn't exactly what I think is a fair way to have a discussion.
I've no interest in undermining your lack of belief in god's, spirit's or am trying to suggest that you're a hippy dippy type, and I'm not interested in preaching or suggesting that people here would have a better lifestyle if they were like me.
I'm just someone who's interested in paganism, mythology and nature.

I respect your standing in society, and don't want to be bringing what sub culture we both find ourselves in, so what's with the hippy thing ?

Last edited by nthclare; 13-09-2020 at 11:01.
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13-09-2020, 11:00   #198
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Electrical activity in the brain stops and then that's it. C'est fin!
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13-09-2020, 11:10   #199
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Unless of course people will put him up there on a pedestal like an architypical leader or something.
The only people I know who claim that Mick Nugent speaks for all atheists in Ireland are religious. Mick, AI and all atheists I've asked are quite clear that Mick speaks for himself and, occasionally, for AI.

It's not a hard distinction to figure out, but I can't help but think that religious people, who would be familiar with priests speaking constantly for the church and its flock of sheep, are simply thinking that atheists are the same.
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13-09-2020, 11:25   #200
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Originally Posted by nthclare View Post
I never mentioned hippy spirits, it was yourself and someone else who came up with that one.
If you say so. I can only say that "Woodwose and other cryptoids" sound pretty hippy dippy to me.

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As for the Atheists I described, they definitely exist and a lot of them don't really agree with Michael Nugent
Yeah just like the theists who wander in here tell us their god "definitely" exists. Adding the word "definitely" merely eaves your beliefs as unsubstantiated as they were before.

As for Nugent, I agree with him on many things, and disagree with him on many others. I linked to his 3 minute talk because he put my answer to your nonsense about topics in this forum better than I could myself. But of course as per usual you play the player and not the ball and rather than respond to WHAT he said in the video, you just comment on him instead.

Your MO is showing.

The point of the video was a response to your claim that certain topics do not belong in this forum. Your pretence to be some kind of moderator of the forum aside, the video answers EXACTLY why those topics DO belong here. But you ignored all that and responded to none of it. As. Per. Usual.
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13-09-2020, 11:52   #201
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I've always found it interesting that some* atheists give out about the controlling nature of religion and the freedom they believe it denies, despite the fact that they are materialists. The end result of materialism is a denial of the existence of free will !

*Seems incorrect to lump all those who are not a member of a club under the one hive mind umbrella
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13-09-2020, 12:06   #202
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I think we just cease to exist.

But I have made a very interesting observation.

Everything in life is based on cycles. You walking is a cycle, blinking your eyes is a cycle, breathing, your heart beat is a cycle, wheel rotation is a cycle, electromagnetic radiation including visible light is a cycle. All of the above have a defined cycle that repeats itself. Each of those have a crest and a through, amplitude and a frequency.

Therefore I would not be surprised if we, as beings in one form or another are just part of this cycle. We live, die, and live again until we die and come back and live again, in one shape or form or another. We have a midpoint which is where we start, crest where we are in our 40s, midpoint again when we die, then a through when we are in the "upside down" or another life and the cycle repeats. Same as everything else in life.

This is just purely based on my own personal opinion.
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13-09-2020, 12:11   #203
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Originally Posted by nthclare View Post
I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.

They are not mutually exclusive terms.

Most people who say they're 'agnostic, not atheist' are actually 'agnostic atheists'.

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13-09-2020, 12:23   #204
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If you say so. I can only say that "Woodwose and other cryptoids" sound pretty hippy dippy to me.



Yeah just like the theists who wander in here tell us their god "definitely" exists. Adding the word "definitely" merely eaves your beliefs as unsubstantiated as they were before.

As for Nugent, I agree with him on many things, and disagree with him on many others. I linked to his 3 minute talk because he put my answer to your nonsense about topics in this forum better than I could myself. But of course as per usual you play the player and not the ball and rather than respond to WHAT he said in the video, you just comment on him instead.

Your MO is showing.

The point of the video was a response to your claim that certain topics do not belong in this forum. Your pretence to be some kind of moderator of the forum aside, the video answers EXACTLY why those topics DO belong here. But you ignored all that and responded to none of it. As. Per. Usual.


A ball could go any direction, depending on the surface, wind direction and air pressure within the ball.

It doesn't have a metal ball in the middle which dictates it's direction upon rolling along the surface.

I know what he said in the video but I don't have to comment on what he said.
I don't have to answer your questions the way you think I should, you sound like you have control issues and unable to accept I've a mind of my own.

The existence of Woodwose and cryptology belongs to a different forum, not Atheism and Agnoticism.

They're not god's or spirit's, I have an interest in them, so what ?

I listened to that link again and it's just Michael on a podium explaining why there's Athiest convention's and he's trying to explain the madness of organised religion thinking that the creator told some guy not to collect stick's on a Sunday.
I agree with that, I've my own gripe with the Abrahamic religion, I've gladly broken away from the fold.
No problems there.

So it's a convention of Atheists who want to bring changes and they can meet up and discuss whatever they like.
That's ok isn't it, they're not harming anyone.

Not all Atheists want to be activists or go to convention's, some just do their own thing and get on with it.

They couldn't be arsed joining groups, but I can see the benefits of meeting people and sharing one's experience strength and hope.

By the way you're suggesting my Modus operandi is showing, what's my MO so ?

All I'm reading from your post's is that you haven't once asked me what type of pagan I am

I'm an old world pagan, I don't think there's any one God or god's that dictate my lifestyle, thought's and moral compass.

I'm interested in old crafts like, weaving, leather craft, hedge laying, willow sculpture, and bush craft.

The Abrahamic's called anyone who doesn't believe in their God a Pagan.

I have an interest in Chaos magic and how people can be manipulated by mass hysteria or how people think.

I'm not interested in witchcraft or wiccans etc or shamens.

I just go about my business, and I have a hope there is an afterlife, whether there is or there isn't that's my problem..

if there is I'll embrace it,if not my legacy will live in the heart's of my loved ones,and hopefully I'll leave something behind that will help my seed on this earth to prosper and live on and do good things.

If I die and that's it, I won't know about it.
So I'm completely powerless over that outcome.

I've an open mind about an afterlife, and accept it's possible.

You're still questioning it and looking for solid proof, so keep on searching for something you're sure doesn't exist.

Your call, maybe you might find it in those Bavarian Woods
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13-09-2020, 12:34   #205
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They are not mutually exclusive terms.

Most people who say they're 'agnostic, not atheist' are actually 'agnostic atheists'.

I'm probably an agnostic atheist, but I prefer agnostic as it's shorter and easier to explain.
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13-09-2020, 12:47   #206
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Other. Eternal existence.

Either:

Eternal life. This, in Christianity, means our moving totally into the realm of God. We experience something of that realm already: if you love, relate to others. If you mourn evil and sickness and death. If you enjoy, learn, experience joy and happiness .. then you are experiencing the realm of God. Whether you believe in him or not makes no difference ("the Sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous alike")

Or

Eternal death. If you thrill in gossip and slander, if you lust, if you are selfish and mean and spiteful, if you thieve and thread on others wellbeing. Well, eternal death involves your being stripped of all characteristics of eternal life you currently possess and being left only with the remainder. (Just as eternal life means being stripped of all that is awful about you. Let's face it: we all exhibit characteristics of eternal life and death in our day to day life)

It's open to question whether you will be:

a) stripped of the ability to wilfully act out your death-characteristics. Those desires will be there still, but straitjacketed. You are given no opportunity to express your death desires- even your mind would be straitjacketed: desiring to think evil thoughts but unable to string thoughts together. Just desire to hate. That would be hell indeed


b) Or perhaps you will be free to carry out your death directed will. The trouble being that so will everyone else in that environment. No mercy, no empathy, no joy, no peace. Just hate: you hating them and them hating you. Hell indeed.

But it's fair. You want no God, you get no God. Not realising that all the good things you now experience and think of as belonging to and intrinsic to you are merely the image of him in which you were made.

All jettisoned by your own death-loving will. All jettisoned by your original sin: the desire to be god - held on til death do you part.

Thy will be done. Pray it to Him or pray it to yourself. The only gods in town.

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14-09-2020, 07:02   #207
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I know what he said in the video but I don't have to comment on what he said.
Your response is, much like the lead up to it you used, a load of balls. No one said you "have to". I merely noted that an ongoing MO from you.... and I am not the first user on the thread to note it either, is to avoid discussion, dodge discussion, shut down discussion or simple ignore what is said to you and go off on unrelated tangents.

Which makes quite rich your pretence to moderate the forum and tell us what topics fit here or not. It seems this is mediated by which topics YOU want to discuss or not.

However you falsely claimed that certain topics do not belong here, and the video from Nugent explains precisely why you are, and continue to be, wrong in this regard. Ignore and dodge at will.

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Not all Atheists want to be activists or go to convention's, some just do their own thing and get on with it.
Again no one said they do. The point of the video was to explain to you that political topics in a world dominated by religion and believers DO very much belong in an atheist discussion forum. Because atheists often discuss those topics in the context of a society heavily influenced by religious opinions about those topics.

So you can dodge discussing certain topics.... from politics to tree fairies.... by delcaring them to be unfit for the forum. But what is fit, or unfit, for discussion in this forum is not your call. You avoiding those topics is your call. Nothing more.

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I've an open mind about an afterlife, and accept it's possible.
As do most, maybe all, people here on this forum. What some people, usually theists in my experience, often miss is that noticing and acknowledging that there is ZERO evidence for something at this time... is not the same as thinking it is not possible. Sure an after life is possible. Sure a god is possible. Sure some tree spirit inhabiting trees with some kind of soil or consciousness is possible.

Those things being POSSIBLE however does not change the fact that we not only have little but we have absolutely ZERO substantiation for any of them at this time. Other than "hope" or self delusion there appears to be no reason to expect any of them to actually exist or be true at this time.
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14-09-2020, 07:03   #208
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Eternal life. This, in Christianity, means our moving totally into the realm of God. We experience something of that realm already: if you love, relate to others. If you mourn evil and sickness and death. If you enjoy, learn, experience joy and happiness .. then you are experiencing the realm of God.
That's just a narrative commercial advertising move though. You are merely listing aspects of the human condition that pleasure you and equating them with the word "god" to make the word "god" look good by proxy.

People making adverts tend to use the same ploy. They can be selling a car and they use sounds and imagery to associate positive things with the car that actually have nothing at all to do with cars or driving. Usually to distract from the fact they have no specific arguments going for their particular car at all. Much like time and time again when asked you have no substantiated whatsoever for the existence of either a god or an after life.

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a) stripped of the ability to wilfully act out your death-characteristics.
I asked you before but you dodged it a few times, but you have not shown we have free will at all in the first place. So you are imagining us being "stripped of" something you have not even shown we have in the first place.

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But it's fair. You want no God, you get no God.
What has "want" got to do with it at all? The only thing I "want" is to know what is true about the universe and our place in it. What that truth turns out to be.... I could not care less myself. I do not want there to be a god. I do not want there not to be a god. The only thing I would want, is to know the truth either way.

And at this time there is not just little, but zero evidence (least of all from you) to suggest there is one. That simple fact is entirely independent of my wants. You MIGHT want there to be evidence for a god. Wanting it apparently has not helped you find any in all these years though.

But the thread is not about god per se, but about an after life or what happens when we die. IT is entirely possible for there to be an after life but no god for example. But thus far all the evidence and knowledge we have about consciousness links it to brains. There is no evidence whatsoever at this time showing one operating independently of the other. So similar to your god, we currently have no reason to expect an after life either.
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14-09-2020, 09:42   #209
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Your response is, much like the lead up to it you used, a load of balls. No one said you "have to". I merely noted that an ongoing MO from you.... and I am not the first user on the thread to note it either, is to avoid discussion, dodge discussion, shut down discussion or simple ignore what is said to you and go off on unrelated tangents.

Which makes quite rich your pretence to moderate the forum and tell us what topics fit here or not. It seems this is mediated by which topics YOU want to discuss or not.

However you falsely claimed that certain topics do not belong here, and the video from Nugent explains precisely why you are, and continue to be, wrong in this regard. Ignore and dodge at will.



Again no one said they do. The point of the video was to explain to you that political topics in a world dominated by religion and believers DO very much belong in an atheist discussion forum. Because atheists often discuss those topics in the context of a society heavily influenced by religious opinions about those topics.

So you can dodge discussing certain topics.... from politics to tree fairies.... by delcaring them to be unfit for the forum. But what is fit, or unfit, for discussion in this forum is not your call. You avoiding those topics is your call. Nothing more.



As do most, maybe all, people here on this forum. What some people, usually theists in my experience, often miss is that noticing and acknowledging that there is ZERO evidence for something at this time... is not the same as thinking it is not possible. Sure an after life is possible. Sure a god is possible. Sure some tree spirit inhabiting trees with some kind of soil or consciousness is possible.

Those things being POSSIBLE however does not change the fact that we not only have little but we have absolutely ZERO substantiation for any of them at this time. Other than "hope" or self delusion there appears to be no reason to expect any of them to actually exist or be true at this time.
I think we have hit a brick wall here, in my last post I said there's an advantage for Atheists who go to convention's and it's good to meet up and discuss whatever.

We moved on from that and as for me playing a moderator well, you're only plagerising the same old mantra over and over.
Let it go, for the sake of a paragraph.

My last post pretty much wrapped my response to your post and you still have to bring in other poster's to our discussion.

I don't know if you're insecure or just need validation or you're grasping at straws and haven't enough to make a straw man...
But it's quite clear I put my cards on the table and you have a blind spot.
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14-09-2020, 10:36   #210
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Other. Eternal existence.

Either:

Eternal life. This, in Christianity, means our moving totally into the realm of God. We experience something of that realm already: if you love, relate to others. If you mourn evil and sickness and death. If you enjoy, learn, experience joy and happiness .. then you are experiencing the realm of God. Whether you believe in him or not makes no difference ("the Sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous alike")

Or

Eternal death. If you thrill in gossip and slander, if you lust, if you are selfish and mean and spiteful, if you thieve and thread on others wellbeing. Well, eternal death involves your being stripped of all characteristics of eternal life you currently possess and being left only with the remainder. (Just as eternal life means being stripped of all that is awful about you. Let's face it: we all exhibit characteristics of eternal life and death in our day to day life)

It's open to question whether you will be:

a) stripped of the ability to wilfully act out your death-characteristics. Those desires will be there still, but straitjacketed. You are given no opportunity to express your death desires- even your mind would be straitjacketed: desiring to think evil thoughts but unable to string thoughts together. Just desire to hate. That would be hell indeed


b) Or perhaps you will be free to carry out your death directed will. The trouble being that so will everyone else in that environment. No mercy, no empathy, no joy, no peace. Just hate: you hating them and them hating you. Hell indeed.

But it's fair. You want no God, you get no God. Not realising that all the good things you now experience and think of as belonging to and intrinsic to you are merely the image of him in which you were made.

All jettisoned by your own death-loving will. All jettisoned by your original sin: the desire to be god - held on til death do you part.

Thy will be done. Pray it to Him or pray it to yourself. The only gods in town.
If these are supposed to be Christian ideas they are not ones that I have ever heard, or that Jesus taught. They are remarkably detailed in their fantasy.

This bit
Quote:
a) stripped of the ability to wilfully act out your death-characteristics. Those desires will be there still, but straitjacketed. You are given no opportunity to express your death desires- even your mind would be straitjacketed: desiring to think evil thoughts but unable to string thoughts together. Just desire to hate. That would be hell indeed
has almost porngraphic undertones. As I recall, Jesus's strongest threat was that people who did not believe in him would not experience an afterlife with god. He didn't discuss the specifics of the bdsm details. What is your source?
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