Why did Jesus allow demons to enter a herd of pigs?

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 2:10pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Christians and Muslims do not believe in the same God. Christians believe that God is trinity, one God in 3 persons, and that Jesus Christ is God in human flesh. Muslims do not believe in these things.

So there are two gods at least then?

ChrisJ84 · 10-09-2019 2:36pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

So there are two gods at least then?

Well the Christian and Islamic ideas of who God is are mutually exclusive, so on that basis either only one of them exists or neither of them do.

As a Christian, obviously I'd plum for the former.

The Nal · 10-09-2019 2:41pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Well the Christian and Islamic ideas of who God is are mutually exclusive, so on that basis either only one of them exists or neither of them do.

As a Christian, obviously I'd plum for the former.

Why?

Why don't you believe the Muslim version?

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 2:41pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Well the Christian and Islamic ideas of who God is are mutually exclusive, so on that basis either only one of them exists or neither of them do.

As a Christian, obviously I'd plum for the former.

So basicly what you're saying is that either 2.1 billion Christians are wrong or 1.3 billion muslims are wrong or both 3.4 billion are wrong!

ChrisJ84 · 10-09-2019 2:50pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

So basicly what you're saying is that either 2.1 billion Christians are wrong or 1.3 billion muslims are wrong or both 3.4 billion are wrong!

Yep, that's about the sum of it.

ChrisJ84 · 10-09-2019 2:59pm

The Nal wrote: »

Why?

As above, the Christian and Muslim ideas of who God is, what he is like, how he relates to us, and how we can relate to him are completely different. Both are monotheistic religions, but after that the differences start to rack up pretty quickly.

The most important is the question of who Jesus is; Christianity maintains that he is God, and is the only and exclusive way to know God. Muslims do not believe that. So they can't both be true.

The Nal wrote: »

Why don't you believe the Muslim version?

Because I'm a Christian, not a Muslim

What about you?

The Nal · 10-09-2019 3:02pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Because I'm a Christian, not a Muslim What about you?

Until I was 12 or so, the Christian version, because thats how I was raised and didn't know any different/better.

uck51js9zml2yt · 10-09-2019 3:05pm

The Nal wrote: »

Why?

Why don't you believe the Muslim version?

We only have 1 man's version of the Muslim god whereas we have multiple people over thousands of years writing about the Christian/Jewish God.

Who do you believe? 1 witness or many ?

The Nal · 10-09-2019 3:07pm

Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »

We only have 1 man's version of the Muslim god whereas we have multiple people over thousands of years writing about the Christian/Jewish God.

Who do you believe? 1 witness or many ?

None of them are witnesses.

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 3:21pm

Wo

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

realdanbreen wrote: »

So basicly what you're saying is that either 2.1 billion Christians are wrong or 1.3 billion muslims are wrong or both 3.4 billion are wrong!

Yep, that's about the sum of it.

Wow! I guess most of us in this little country are very lucky in that of the 4300 or so religions out there we happened to be born into the correct one.

ChrisJ84 · 10-09-2019 3:25pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Wo
Wow! I guess most of us in this little country are very lucky in that of the 4300 or so religions out there we happened to be born into the correct one.

I think our Christian heritage in this country is a real blessing, and I am thankful for it. It's also one of the reasons that Christianity has always had such a strong missionary impetus, so that others have the opportunity to hear the good news of the gospel.

JJayoo · 10-09-2019 3:28pm

Maybe Jesus was gonna have the demon pigs butchered get some tasty demon rashers

Effects · 10-09-2019 3:47pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Christians and Muslims do not believe in the same God.

It doesn’t matter what they believe. It’s still the same God.

smacl · 10-09-2019 3:48pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

So basicly what you're saying is that either 2.1 billion Christians are wrong or 1.3 billion muslims are wrong or both 3.4 billion are wrong!

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Yep, that's about the sum of it.

Hang on just a minute there. What makes you agree with the notion that there are 2.1 billion Christians out there? Hopefully not from any national census figures of people claiming to be Christian, given your previous stated position on what it means to be Christian which demands rather more than ticking a box on a form.

smacl · 10-09-2019 3:49pm

Effects wrote: »

It doesn’t matter what they believe. It’s still the same God.

And Ganesha?

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 3:52pm

smacl wrote: »

realdanbreen wrote: »

So basicly what you're saying is that either 2.1 billion Christians are wrong or 1.3 billion muslims are wrong or both 3.4 billion are wrong!

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Yep, that's about the sum of it.

Hang on just a minute there. What makes you agree with the notion that there are 2.1 billion Christians out there? Hopefully not from any national census figures of people claiming to be Christian, given your previous stated position on what it means to be Christian which demands rather more than ticking a box on a form.

Well I will admit that I relied on Google. Where's your figure coming from, did you count them?

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 3:57pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

realdanbreen wrote: »

Wo
Wow! I guess most of us in this little country are very lucky in that of the 4300 or so religions out there we happened to be born into the correct one.

I think our Christian heritage in this country is a real blessing, and I am thankful for it. It's also one of the reasons that Christianity has always had such a strong missionary impetus, so that others have the opportunity to hear the good news of the gospel.

Fair enough but I think what puts off most young people in particular from these religions (apart from the blind faith requirement ) is that the kernel of their teaching is that things will be better when you are dead.

ChrisJ84 · 10-09-2019 4:12pm

The Nal wrote: »

Until I was 12 or so, the Christian version, because thats how I was raised and didn't know any different/better.

Fair enough. If you wanted to think about it again then I'd recommend reading Mark's gospel, with an open mind.

ChrisJ84 · 10-09-2019 4:15pm

smacl wrote: »

Hang on just a minute there. What makes you agree with the notion that there are 2.1 billion Christians out there? Hopefully not from any national census figures of people claiming to be Christian, given your previous stated position on what it means to be Christian which demands rather more than ticking a box on a form.

Doh!

ChrisJ84 · 10-09-2019 4:21pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Fair enough but I think what puts off most young people in particular from these religions (apart from the blind faith requirement ) is that the kernel of their teaching is that things will be better when you are dead.

Like I said to @The Nal, a good place to start is to read Mark's gospel with an open mind and decide for yourself. Christianity isn't all pie in the sky when you die, it's about coming into a real and living relationship with God himself. For me, and other Christians like me, that is exciting and joy giving now and not just after we die. And it's not blind faith, rather we come to know God because he has revealed himself.

Even if you disagree with that, or don't find it convincing, hopefully it helps to understand where me and others like me are coming from.

smacl · 10-09-2019 4:23pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Well I will admit that I relied on Google. Where's your figure coming from, did you count them?

Nah, just having a bit of fun. Previous discussions talked about what makes a Christian a Christian where my take on it was once they called themselves a Christian that was good enough for me. Others on here would apply more stringent criteria and over on the A&A forum it comes on regularly from both sides of the argument that such and such a group of people aren't 'real' Christians for all sorts of reasons.

uck51js9zml2yt · 10-09-2019 5:06pm

smacl wrote: »

Nah, just having a bit of fun. Previous discussions talked about what makes a Christian a Christian where my take on it was once they called themselves a Christian that was good enough for me. Others on here would apply more stringent criteria and over on the A&A forum it comes on regularly from both sides of the argument that such and such a group of people aren't 'real' Christians for all sorts of reasons.

Not every burger that looks like a big mac is a Big Mac!

Anus Von Skidmark · 10-09-2019 5:16pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Maybe Jesus was gonna have the demon pigs butchered get some tasty demon rashers

I'd devour a big fat demon sausage now... yum!

smacl · 10-09-2019 7:17pm

Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »

Not every burger that looks like a big mac is a Big Mac!

Perhaps, but if I bought it at McDonalds and it said Big Mac on the wrapper, I'd take it in good faith that it was a big mac. Now what's actually inside that Big Mac is another thing entirely and could well make your stomach churn :pac:

Effects · 10-09-2019 7:22pm

smacl wrote: »

And Ganesha?

Ganesh is a completely different God to the one that Muslims/Christians worship.

realdanbreen · 11-09-2019 8:29am

Wouldn't you imagine that whichever god is out there he/she/it would just make themselves visibly known( I mean clearly, not in some writings that are thousands of years old) everyone on the planet then understands what's required and we all live happily ever after!

Peregrinus · 11-09-2019 8:31am

realdanbreen wrote: »

Wouldn't you imagine that whichever god is out there he/she/it would just make themselves visibly known( I mean clearly, not in some writings that are thousands of years old) everyone on the planet then understands what's required and we all live happily ever after!

What manifestation of God would satisfy this criterion? Serious question.

realdanbreen · 11-09-2019 8:41am

Peregrinus wrote: »

What manifestation of God would satisfy this criterion? Serious question.

Well I would imagine God would be able to speak pretty much from the heavens, visible to all , and say whatever needs to be said. I am deadly serious. If there is a god and he has a message then why would it not be clearly delivered and not open to misinterpretation. As things stand there are 4000+ religions out there not to mention those with no religious beliefs.

Effects · 11-09-2019 10:35am

realdanbreen wrote: »

If there is a god and he has a message then why would it not be clearly delivered and not open to misinterpretation.

Our brains wouldn't be able to comprehend the reality of it.
It's much better to work in ambiguities and faith without clear reality.

smacl · 11-09-2019 10:55am

Effects wrote: »

Our brains wouldn't be able to comprehend the reality of it.
It's much better to work in ambiguities and faith without clear reality.

By definition an omnipotent being would be able to present a message that was within our ability to grasp?

ChrisJ84 · 11-09-2019 8:27pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Well I would imagine God would be able to speak pretty much from the heavens, visible to all , and say whatever needs to be said. I am deadly serious. If there is a god and he has a message then why would it not be clearly delivered and not open to misinterpretation. As things stand there are 4000+ religions out there not to mention those with no religious beliefs.

That is exactly what the bible tells us - the heavens declare the glory of God. In Romans, Paul points out that God's "eternal power and divine nature" can be seen by everyone in creation, and that on that basis we have no excuse for denying him. The bible is also clear that the fact that we do deny him is on us, not on God.

Thankfully, God doesn't leave us in this mess that we've made for ourselves.

theological · 11-09-2019 8:35pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Wouldn't you imagine that whichever god is out there he/she/it would just make themselves visibly known( I mean clearly, not in some writings that are thousands of years old) everyone on the planet then understands what's required and we all live happily ever after!

Jesus Christ walked this earth 2,000 years ago, recorded in history. People saw the signs that He did amongst them, and they still didn't believe in Him. (You can see this particularly in John chapters 5 - 10).

God has made Himself known physically in Christ, that wasn't enough for many people. I often find that people who say that God needs to do X, Y and Z in order to believe in Him shift the goalposts whenever X, Y and Z are presented. That proves that it isn't a matter of these things, or a matter of intellect but a matter of the heart. It isn't that there isn't enough of an intellectual basis for Christianity, it is that you do not want to believe.

realdanbreen · 11-09-2019 9:22pm

The

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

realdanbreen wrote: »

Well I would imagine God would be able to speak pretty much from the heavens, visible to all , and say whatever needs to be said. I am deadly serious. If there is a god and he has a message then why would it not be clearly delivered and not open to misinterpretation. As things stand there are 4000+ religions out there not to mention those with no religious beliefs.

That is exactly what the bible tells us - the heavens declare the glory of God. In Romans, Paul points out that God's "eternal power and divine nature" can be seen by everyone in creation, and that on that basis we have no excuse for denying him. The bible is also clear that the fact that we do deny him is on us, not on God.

Thankfully, God doesn't leave us in this mess that we've made for ourselves.

Why are you guys so scared that you cannot even consider that God making himself obvious to present day mankind is a good idea. Most free thinking adults find it a bit far fetched that God would only have made himself known in riddles and parables for a very brief period 2000 years ago and only in a tiny patch of land in the middle east.

theological · 11-09-2019 9:31pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

The
Why are you guys so scared that you cannot even consider that God making himself obvious to present day mankind is a good idea. Most free thinking adults find it a bit far fetched that God would only have made himself known in riddles and parables for a very brief period 2000 years ago and only in a tiny patch of land in the middle east.

I'm not "scared" about any suggestion. I trust God, on the basis of what He has said, and what He has done in history, on that basis, and on the basis of what God has done in my life and in the lives of others I trust Him.

You are entitled not to. I simply don't find it problematic that Jesus Christ isn't physically here, we have His Word and we have the Holy Spirit living in us.

John 16:4-15 wrote:

“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

God hasn't left us. We can pray to God with confidence because of what Jesus has done. God works in our lives through His Spirit to make us blameless before Him when He returns and to help us to grow in holiness.

I'm hugely thankful to God for that. Jesus Christ speaks with such authority. I've not come across anyone who speaks like Him in this world. If I can be a fraction more like Him in this life I will be doing well.

smacl · 12-09-2019 9:06am

Kareem Old-fashioned Supper wrote: »

Whichever way you look at it, life is far-fetched. That, in itself, is no reason to discard the theory that God might just have chosen that place and that time.

But on that basis, any creation story, now matter how absurd, is equally valid. At this point in time, most people go with the least absurd version of events we currently have at our disposal which involves the big bang theory and evolution, strange as that may seem. An almighty deity that in his wisdom gave us carbon dating would seem rather keen to deny his own existence.

uck51js9zml2yt · 12-09-2019 11:15am

smacl wrote: »

By definition an omnipotent being would be able to present a message that was within our ability to grasp?

He already did that and when He came among we didn't believe Him despite the miracles and then crucified Him. Just like ancient Israel. Delivered from the Egyptians, red sea parted, thunder and lightening and a voice from the top of the mountain and they stopped their ears, said no more and didn't believe in the God that delivered them.

Do you really think it would be any different now?

smacl · 12-09-2019 11:36am

Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »

He already did that and when He came among we didn't believe Him despite the miracles and then crucified Him. Just like ancient Israel. Delivered from the Egyptians, red sea parted, thunder and lightening and a voice from the top of the mountain and they stopped their ears, said no more and didn't believe in the God that delivered them.

Yet none of these miracles is verifiable or believed as accurate from a historical perspective and most other major religions have similar yet conflicting tales of miracle.

Do you really think it would be any different now?

If someone claiming to be an agent of God was able to part the Red Sea simply by waving his hands around, I for one would be reconsidering my position. That said, I'm not holding my breath in anticipation

uck51js9zml2yt · 12-09-2019 2:27pm

smacl wrote: »

Yet none of these miracles is verifiable or believed as accurate from a historical perspective and most other major religions have similar yet conflicting tales of miracle.

If someone claiming to be an agent of God was able to part the Red Sea simply by waving his hands around, I for one would be reconsidering my position. That said, I'm not holding my breath in anticipation

Not believed by who? By you? I believe them as do many others.

Going on your word is like asking a blind man what colour he sees when looking at a red light.

realdanbreen · 12-09-2019 2:50pm

Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »

Not believed by who? By you? I believe them as do many others.

Going on your word is like asking a blind man what colour he sees when looking at a red light.

I don't doubt your belief and the belief of others on this topic but I get a little scared that ye don't seem to be willing to address the huge elephant in the room and that is the ever dwindling numbers attending church and the complete absence of priests and nuns joining up. That indicates one thing to me and it is that people find it hard to believe and they are not being helped by the clergy who after all if nothing else are paid to do a job. I'm no spring chicken but I can honestly say that I don't ever recall meeting a priest who in any way sounded like he was convinced about the afterlife or anything.

smacl · 12-09-2019 4:03pm

Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »

Not believed by who? By you? I believe them as do many others.

Going on your word is like asking a blind man what colour he sees when looking at a red light.

My post clearly stated "none of these miracles is verifiable or believed as accurate from a historical perspective". Perhaps you could find point out a reputable history book that lists biblical miracles as fact. Out of interest do you believe that all of humankind are directly descended from Adam and Eve, or that Noah managed to squeeze a mating pair of every land creature onto a large wooden boat and that every land creature alive today are direct descendents of animals from the ark? If not, why not?

The Nal · 12-09-2019 5:06pm

Its called conditioning. People don't know any better, simple as that really.

ChrisJ84 · 12-09-2019 5:07pm

The Nal wrote: »

Its called conditioning. People don't know any better, simple as that really.

Which doesn't apply to enlightened types like yourself I suppose :rolleyes:

The Nal · 13-09-2019 9:25am

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Which doesn't apply to enlightened types like yourself I suppose :rolleyes:

It did until I was about 11 or 12.

Peregrinus · 13-09-2019 9:37am

The Nal wrote: »

Its called conditioning. People don't know any better, simple as that really.

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Which doesn't apply to enlightened types like yourself I suppose :rolleyes:

The Nal wrote: »

It did until I was about 11 or 12.

You don't grow out of conditioning - that's kind of the point. The fairly well-observed phenomenon of people changing their religious position (or other positions) in adolescence is not evidence that they are no longer susceptible to being shaped by social patterns and social structures; just that they are being influenced by different patterns and structures - your parents and extended family are relatively less of an influence on you; your peers and external role models relatively more so.

There is no a priori reason to think that your present position on religious matters is any less the product of conditioning than positions you held in the past were. The belief that it is is adopted simply because it is comforting and affirming.

uck51js9zml2yt · 13-09-2019 10:37am

realdanbreen wrote: »

I don't doubt your belief and the belief of others on this topic but I get a little scared that ye don't seem to be willing to address the huge elephant in the room and that is the ever dwindling numbers attending church and the complete absence of priests and nuns joining up. That indicates one thing to me and it is that people find it hard to believe and they are not being helped by the clergy who after all if nothing else are paid to do a job. I'm no spring chicken but I can honestly say that I don't ever recall meeting a priest who in any way sounded like he was convinced about the afterlife or anything.

The Church is s lot bigger that the RC denomination.
Pentecostal Churches are the fastest growing worldwide.

This is just Ireland.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/a-religious-revolution-is-taking-place-in-ireland-1.3092198?mode=amp

smacl · 13-09-2019 1:37pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

You don't grow out of conditioning - that's kind of the point.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, P. AFAIK most conditioning needs to be reinforced at regular intervals or it is prone to fade over time. If you think about it, conditioning essentially amounts to rote learning with large numbers of repetitions over an extended period of time, sometimes coupled with punishment for mistakes and reward for consistently getting it right. e.g, most people of a certain generation were taught most subjects this way in school, but how many of them could re-sit their leaving cert and hope to pass?

smacl · 13-09-2019 1:43pm

Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »

The Church is s lot bigger that the RC denomination.
Pentecostal Churches are the fastest growing worldwide.

This is just Ireland.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/a-religious-revolution-is-taking-place-in-ireland-1.3092198?mode=amp

Article written by Nick Park, an executive director of Evangelical Alliance Ireland, not that it is a bad article but it is from someone actively promoting evangelicalism. The comments below the article are rather entertaining.

Evangelicalism currently represents about 1.5% of the population in this country, so very much a minority concern.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-09-2019 2:17pm

smacl wrote: »

The comments below the article are rather entertaining.

I especially liked this one

"such churches, having never been part of the political or cultural power structures in the State, are generally unaffected by the scandals that have disillusioned so many."

Indeed not: their speciality tends rather to be the pastor absconding with the cash box under one arm and his secretary under the other, of which I could relate several juicy examples. But give them any secular power, such as they are now seeking in countries like Brazil, and they'd soon be as corrupt as any of the established churches: probably with brass knobs on given the generally poor backgrounds and low educational levels of their leaders. In the United States "TV evangelist" and "fraudster" are now virtually interchangeable terms. One such rejoices in the name of the Rev. Chuck Swindell, which is a name that even Graham Linehan would have hesitated to invent.

Funny how the people who say things like "X is the fastest growing" something-or-other never mention the obstinately small "market share" of X (same as the market leader Y never mentions how its share is in long-term decline with no idea how to reverse it...)

realdanbreen · 13-09-2019 4:33pm

Kareem Old-fashioned Supper wrote: »

The believing Church will always be a minority concern, Jesus warned as much.

Well Mohammad certainly seems to have cornered the market.

smacl · 13-09-2019 4:51pm

Kareem Old-fashioned Supper wrote: »

The believing Church will always be a minority concern, Jesus warned as much.

By that are you labelling all other Christian churches as non-believers?

Why did Jesus allow demons to enter a herd of pigs?

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