Changes to benefit the environment...

Say my name · 19-05-2019 10:43pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

+1

A minimum of six years for any differences between grass plots to START to show differences, 15-20 before worthwhile differences.
That's assuming they sample to 1m which they mightn't do. 30cm is more common.

They're only replicating work already done in Germany and USA. There's also already a big enough body of evidence to point us in the right direction, they just need to be creative with their management to figure out how to give the majority of farmers a soft landing from the current system

Not to rain on their parade but it's obvious it's coming from on high and related to what's occurring in New Zealand and Minister Creed's "idea" of planting trees on farms and for Teagasc to have this under their belt to say "Look this is what we're doing" plus it'll look nice to show for visitors/students/officials to the farm.

Water John · 20-05-2019 11:45am

Yes, in all spheres of this subject we will have, pretend progress and studies.
Small progressions need to be called that. No harm in them but not to be confused with real seismic shifts. The plastic shopping bag, the plastic drinking straw, the reusable coffee/water carrier, turning off the tap while brushing your teeth. All have had their day in the sun.
Real choices may have to be made. Do you focus towards more sustainable farming methods or plant half the grassland with trees? That looks like the real choice.

Dinzee Conlee · 20-05-2019 12:22pm

Water John wrote: »

Yes, in all spheres of this subject we will have, pretend progress and studies.
Small progressions need to be called that. No harm in them but not to be confused with real seismic shifts. The plastic shopping bag, the plastic drinking straw, the reusable coffee/water carrier, turning off the tap while brushing your teeth. All have had their day in the sun.
Real choices may have to be made. Do you focus towards more sustainable farming methods or plant half the grassland with trees? That looks like the real choice.

And what are these more sustainable farming methods prey tell?

_Brian · 20-05-2019 2:14pm

Varadkar’s comments that declaring the climate emergency was symbolic and a gesture were terribly ill conceived.

Like, we all know they had no substance behind it but saying it out loud will push lots of voters away to the greens etc who apparently are gaining ground anyway.

Shows just out of touch he is with the real world and public sentiment on the ground.

https://www.joe.ie/life-style/668944-668944

gr8 m8 · 20-05-2019 2:28pm

Hello.

If you are looking for ideas to diversify your farm and help make it more sustainable then I would recommend 2 books by American farmers!

The first is called restoration agriculture by Mark Shepard. He planted a variety of about 250,000 fruit and nut trees in rows on his 100 or so acres, all in rows and then grazes livestock between these rows.

The second book is "you can farm" by Joel Salatin. He calls himself the "lunatic farmer" but the diversity that he has in his ideas that he has implemented on his farm is staggering.

Also I have found that through trial and a lot of error, that nature has it all worked out for us but we as farmers are trained to fight against it. For instance, we spray off stinging nettles but yet nettle tea is huge as a health food with the idea that young nettle leaves help with fertility (but shouldn't be taken after becoming pregnant)! So if young nettles arrive in may then is it a coincidence that animals that calf in April out on grass have always been my most profitable animals?

Ivy is supposed to be high in iodine also and any farmer with bad fencing will know that towards the end of the grazing year it isn't as uncommon sight to see the odd cow stuck in the ditch eating ivy off the trees.

The amazing thing I find is that an animal has the instinct to know what she needs and how to find it! But we keep going in with stuff that we think that they should want because we have been told so.

Water John · 20-05-2019 3:46pm

Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.

Say my name · 20-05-2019 4:31pm

Water John wrote: »

Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.

I kind of aim to be energy negative.
I haven't the foggiest what I am though.

I know what you're on about probably re scope for renewable energy/electricity production on farms.
But in my case if being energy negative means I'm importing meal, straw, woodchip, fertilizer more than what's leaving the farm. Then my soil and fertility and carbon is improving albeit at someone else's cost. If they're selling I'm buying.

Say my name · 20-05-2019 5:10pm

_Brian wrote: »

Varadkar’s comments that declaring the climate emergency was symbolic and a gesture were terribly ill conceived.

Like, we all know they had no substance behind it but saying it out loud will push lots of voters away to the greens etc who apparently are gaining ground anyway.

Shows just out of touch he is with the real world and public sentiment on the ground.

https://www.joe.ie/life-style/668944-668944

If you were to really switch to a carbon saving economy as a Government.

The first step would be to tax and impose a penalty on the drillers of that buried carbon/Oil and fossil fuel industry. So instead of the situation at present where Shell etc get paid for petrol, diesel, gas, etc. Impose a fine on them instead where they are drilling in the country. Same thing with the importers of fossil fuel impose the fine.

Then with the sequesterors of carbon. The soil and sea owners, pay a reward for taking down that carbon from the atmosphere.

Then with the general population. The people in the middle. Pay grants to help get off fossil fuel use and save energy.

This is the work of a simpleton but it's the only real way to reduce carbon dioxide levels from current record levels.
I understand that if the revenue from the fossil fuel industry stopped and we suddenly became carbon neutral that where's the incentives going to come from then to continue the revenue payments to the carbon sequesterors. And to that I haven't a clue. General taxation??
But it certainly won't be easy to make change on the global atmosphere co2 concentration but still .... should be tried.

Birdnuts · 20-05-2019 9:03pm

_Brian wrote: »

Varadkar’s comments that declaring the climate emergency was symbolic and a gesture were terribly ill conceived.

Like, we all know they had no substance behind it but saying it out loud will push lots of voters away to the greens etc who apparently are gaining ground anyway.

Shows just out of touch he is with the real world and public sentiment on the ground.

https://www.joe.ie/life-style/668944-668944

I can tell you that no genuine folks working in the conservation sector in Ireland take him and the Blueshirts seriously on any of these issues anyway. Birdwatch Ireland did an analysis of Parties voting record in the EU parliament on the likes of sustaineable farming, fisheries and general biodiversity - guess who came out worst??

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-05-2019 9:49pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

I can tell you that no genuine folks working in the conservation sector in Ireland take him and the Blueshirts seriously on any of these issues anyway. Birdwatch Ireland did an analysis of Parties voting record in the EU parliament on the likes of sustaineable farming, fisheries and general biodiversity - guess who came out worst??[/b[

The Greens ??

Mooooo · 20-05-2019 10:04pm

Could say to the meps if anyone ever sees one. The EU is one of the biggest consumers in the world, they wish to put conditions on its own farmers, it's population etc. Simply hold all the countries it imports from to the same standards. No roundup use etc. But that won't happen, couldn't stop the Germans from exporting all their industrial goods could we..

Suckler · 21-05-2019 9:01am

gr8 m8 wrote: »

The first is called restoration agriculture by Mark Shepard. He planted a variety of about 250,000 fruit and nut trees in rows on his 100 or so acres, all in rows and then grazes livestock between these rows.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-48336239/how-a-new-diet-for-gassy-cows-is-helping-the-environment

Just came across a similar idea used in South America.

Dinzee Conlee · 21-05-2019 9:13am

gr8 m8 wrote: »

Hello.

If you are looking for ideas to diversify your farm and help make it more sustainable then I would recommend 2 books by American farmers!

The first is called restoration agriculture by Mark Shepard. He planted a variety of about 250,000 fruit and nut trees in rows on his 100 or so acres, all in rows and then grazes livestock between these rows.

The second book is "you can farm" by Joel Salatin. He calls himself the "lunatic farmer" but the diversity that he has in his ideas that he has implemented on his farm is staggering.

Also I have found that through trial and a lot of error, that nature has it all worked out for us but we as farmers are trained to fight against it. For instance, we spray off stinging nettles but yet nettle tea is huge as a health food with the idea that young nettle leaves help with fertility (but shouldn't be taken after becoming pregnant)! So if young nettles arrive in may then is it a coincidence that animals that calf in April out on grass have always been my most profitable animals?

Ivy is supposed to be high in iodine also and any farmer with bad fencing will know that towards the end of the grazing year it isn't as uncommon sight to see the odd cow stuck in the ditch eating ivy off the trees.

The amazing thing I find is that an animal has the instinct to know what she needs and how to find it! But we keep going in with stuff that we think that they should want because we have been told so.

There is an agroforestry scheme now, and I would be very interested...

But - I am holding out as I want to see if the grant aid is extended (currently it’s 5 years vs 15years for normal forestry)

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

80sDiesel · 21-05-2019 9:33am

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

gr8 m8 wrote: »

Hello.

If you are looking for ideas to diversify your farm and help make it more sustainable then I would recommend 2 books by American farmers!

The first is called restoration agriculture by Mark Shepard. He planted a variety of about 250,000 fruit and nut trees in rows on his 100 or so acres, all in rows and then grazes livestock between these rows.

The second book is "you can farm" by Joel Salatin. He calls himself the "lunatic farmer" but the diversity that he has in his ideas that he has implemented on his farm is staggering.

Also I have found that through trial and a lot of error, that nature has it all worked out for us but we as farmers are trained to fight against it. For instance, we spray off stinging nettles but yet nettle tea is huge as a health food with the idea that young nettle leaves help with fertility (but shouldn't be taken after becoming pregnant)! So if young nettles arrive in may then is it a coincidence that animals that calf in April out on grass have always been my most profitable animals?

Ivy is supposed to be high in iodine also and any farmer with bad fencing will know that towards the end of the grazing year it isn't as uncommon sight to see the odd cow stuck in the ditch eating ivy off the trees.

The amazing thing I find is that an animal has the instinct to know what she needs and how to find it! But we keep going in with stuff that we think that they should want because we have been told so.

There is an agroforestry scheme now, and I would be very interested...

But - I am holding out as I want to see if the grant aid is extended (currently it’s 5 years vs 15years for normal forestry)

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

Interesting. So after 5 years that's all the income from the forrestey part. ( The oak will take decades before harvest)

yosemitesam1 · 21-05-2019 9:52am

Water John wrote: »

Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.

Fertilizer is the biggest factor in that, it might be possible with crops to still be energy positive but with livestock it's definitely not

ganmo · 21-05-2019 10:19am

Water John wrote: »

Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.

Did he look at any other industries?
surely the only energy positive industries would be the ones that generate power, even then it'd be only the ones using solar/wind

alps · 21-05-2019 10:26am

Water John wrote: »

Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.

The first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. ... In other words, energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Any idea what the thesis conclusion is regarding the left over energy?

ganmo · 21-05-2019 10:33am

alps wrote: »

The first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. ... In other words, energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Any idea what the thesis conclusion is regarding the left over energy?

carbon sequestration?

gr8 m8 · 21-05-2019 2:55pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

There is an agroforestry scheme now, and I would be very interested...

But - I am holding out as I want to see if the grant aid is extended (currently it’s 5 years vs 15years for normal forestry)

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

Hello

I looked into that a few years ago and I wanted to grow apple trees on full size rootstock so that cattle couldn't reach the branches.

I got completely shut down by teagasc. A real "computer says no!" moment.

I don't understand it because an apple tree will do what an oak tree will do as far as I know, and I would get a crop of apples from it every year. Apparently Ireland buys in 85% of it's apples and we have a thriving cider industry down in Tipperary with bulmers! The saying goes "you can sheer a sheep many times but you can only skin it the once" comes to mind

I'll never understand why we couldn't do fruit orchards and nut orchards with sheep and cattle beneath them under that grant. Are they afraid that we will end up making too much money?

endainoz · 21-05-2019 4:15pm

gr8 m8 wrote:

I got completely shut down by teagasc. A real "computer says no!" moment.

No surprise there, teagasc wouldn't encourage something that doesn't involve investment of 10s of thousands into buildings and increasing stock or converting to dairy.

gr8 m8 wrote:

I don't understand it because an apple tree will do what an oak tree will do as far as I know, and I would get a crop of apples from it every year. Apparently Ireland buys in 85% of it's apples and we have a thriving cider industry down in Tipperary with bulmers! The saying goes "you can sheer a sheep many times but you can only skin it the once" comes to mind

I had thought of it myself at one point, only thing going against me was being close to the sea so would not get a decent quality apple. Remember seeing a thing in ear to the ground about a guy in North cork that was doing it. Said bulmers were (obviously) his main client but what he really had a passion for was selling at farmers markets.

If your not close to the sea I'd be looking into it a bit more, maybe not through the so called experts from teagasc though.

gr8 m8 · 21-05-2019 4:22pm

Yeah, but it's teagasc that holds the keys to the grant for it.

gr8 m8 · 21-05-2019 5:00pm

Hello again.

I looked into apples a good bit at the time and although I have forgotten about exact numbers, here is what I came up with.

A full size apple tree can produce between 60 and 150 kg of apples so we could take it as a 100kg average. If you put only 10 trees to the acre that is 1 ton of apples.

I have 20 acres that I believe would be suitable because it is a bit of a hill and mostly suitable for grazing as apposed to tractor work so that's 20 acres with 10 trees/acre @ 100kg/tree = 20 tons of apples.

An apple is about 50% juice and 50% solid which gives me 10,000 litres of apple juice and 10 tons of pressings if I was to squeeze them ! So that's 10 ibc containers of juice I can sell to someone who wants to sell it as apple juice or cider.

If I was to core the apples before squeezing them I can make Apple cider vinegar also but otherwise all the pressings can be stored like you would store silage (assuming it is dry enough) and fed to livestock as a very palatable feed enhancer!

I have 3 products from the one tree already and still have my animals grazing the grass beneath the tree! Because the apple trees flower and need pollinators to help to up the yield I can bring in bee hives (either my own or get someone else to bring in their own) and then you have apple blossom honey from the mix also.

Add to that all the carbon that the tree is taking in during it's life time! Surely that kind of mix is better than growing an oak tree for someone else to cut down in the next generation? I do admire a good oak tree as much as the next fella but unless I can start selling acorns then I really can't dedicate much time to them!

endainoz · 21-05-2019 7:32pm

Sounds like a great idea, you have me inspired to look into it some more!

Buford T. Justice XIX · 22-05-2019 4:34pm

Tweet has a link to a series of regenerative agriculture walks across the country this summer.
https://twitter.com/IrelandsFarmers/status/1131184303184986112?s=19

Say my name · 23-05-2019 8:17am

Posting this in case anyone wants to get on a plane, go to Australia and go into a cinema and watch this.

https://www.madmanfilms.com.au/2040film/?fbclid=IwAR22wmoUOq9C83CP8tcny3KtCeLJvYuNMdgDsRL3dMCUEu56_uNM3mkfe0E

ganmo · 26-05-2019 4:37pm

Managed to grab a pic of these today

Water John · 26-05-2019 7:14pm

Are they Orange tip? Went and dug out my butterfly poster.

PoorFarmer · 26-05-2019 7:43pm

Anybody put a name on this lad? Reckon about 2 to 3 inches long.

dakar · 26-05-2019 7:54pm

PoorFarmer wrote: »

Anybody put a name on this lad? Reckon about 2 to 3 inches long.

That looks like a Drinker Moth Caterpillar.

Love this thread by the way, I have a half acre of ungarden that I’m trying to make as wildlife friendly as possible.

ganmo · 26-05-2019 7:56pm

Water John wrote: »

Are they Orange tip? Went and dug out my butterfly poster.

Looks like you're right https://www.irishbutterflies.com/orange_tip_butterfly_of_ireland.html
There was a third one floating around but wouldn't get in the pic

Base price · 26-05-2019 8:24pm

ganmo wrote: »

Looks like you're right https://www.irishbutterflies.com/orange_tip_butterfly_of_ireland.html
There was a third one floating around but wouldn't get in the pic

You could submit a record to http://www.biodiversityireland.ie/

I try and submit sightings of wildlife as I come across them.

80sDiesel · 26-05-2019 8:46pm

dakar wrote: »

PoorFarmer wrote: »

Anybody put a name on this lad? Reckon about 2 to 3 inches long.

That looks like a Drinker Moth Caterpillar.

Love this thread by the way, I have a half acre of ungarden that I’m trying to make as wildlife friendly as possible.

Start with some hay rattle this autumn.

Water John · 26-05-2019 8:47pm

Dakar, never heard the word, ungarden.

dakar · 26-05-2019 10:18pm

Water John wrote: »

Dakar, never heard the word, ungarden.

Well it’s a half acre of a fairly steep hill site with a flattish top in the corner of a large rolling field which resisted our early attempts to civilise it when we built 10 years ago. I think ‘ungarden’ works as a description!

I’ve no interest in manicured lawns, but I don’t want it to be a nuisance to the surrounding farmers either, so I’m trying to keep on top of the noxious weeds and letting nature take over in a lightly guided way. I’d love to turn the flatter bit of it into an orchard with a healthy mixed native species hedge and some old varieties of apple and pear. That’s the plan anyway, when I get around to it...

gr8 m8 · 26-05-2019 10:49pm

Hello.

Dakar, you should look into establishing a food Forest.

Base price · 27-05-2019 10:47am

Eamonn Ryan - "We're going to have to change Irish farming"

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/we-re-going-to-have-to-change-irish-farming-green-leader-466957

endainoz · 27-05-2019 12:25pm

Great news, we might actually get a decent environmental scheme that benefits everyone. People again any green party automatically say oh this means a tax on everything. I really don't think everyone will be effected, big polluters of course but people need to look past the oh greens in power mean tax.

The restructuring of forrestry sounds promising too, just hope it's not just talk. The greens policy of pushing the diesel engines really came back to bite them in the hole and they will keep being reminded of it from opposition.

All they being said, I voted green in this election for the first time ever and I have been thinking about sustainability much more than I ever have after joining the organic scheme so I suppose the green wave has affected me too!

twin_beacon · 27-05-2019 12:51pm

Base price wrote: »

Eamonn Ryan - "We're going to have to change Irish farming"

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/we-re-going-to-have-to-change-irish-farming-green-leader-466957

I don't see this as a bad thing, in fact having members of the Irish Green party in the EU Parliament could be a good thing for Irish farmers. The fact of the matter is that farming policies to need to be altered and it is going to happen. I don't mean we need drastic changes in all forms of farming, but I would rather have an Irish voice being involved when those policies are being shaped, rather than someone that will just oppose them.

He continued that the farm payments would have to be tailored more towards farming for nature and that the policy on forestry would also have to change and move away from the forestry harvesting every 30 years.

If anything, I can see some schemes becoming available to Irish farmers over the next few years through CAP, where they are paid to make environmental improvements on their farms. That could be through planting native hard woods, installing bird boxes or bee hives, and re wetting of some wetlands.

ganmo · 27-05-2019 1:53pm

Eamon Ryan was our local td at one stage, and their other td is one of our current tds. The number of farming votes would be less than 50 so they dont need to get any votes from farmers

Buford T. Justice XIX · 27-05-2019 2:09pm

twin_beacon wrote: »

I don't see this as a bad thing, in fact having members of the Irish Green party in the EU Parliament could be a good thing for Irish farmers. The fact of the matter is that farming policies to need to be altered and it is going to happen. I don't mean we need drastic changes in all forms of farming, but I would rather have an Irish voice being involved when those policies are being shaped, rather than someone that will just oppose them.

If anything, I can see some schemes becoming available to Irish farmers over the next few years through CAP, where they are paid to make environmental improvements on their farms. That could be through planting native hard woods, installing bird boxes or bee hives, and re wetting of some wetlands.

If my memory serves me correctly, one of the first acts carried out by the FG/Labour coalition replacing the FF/Green coalition in 2011 was to issue a statutory instrument on drainage to comply with the closing date for an EU directive requiring legislation on drainage in Ireland that was sitting on the previous Minister of the Environments desk for a few years with nothing done to comply with the directive.

The previous Minister of the Environment?

John Gormley formerly of the Green party.

In reality, the further from any levers of power they stay, the better outcome for all.

I would like to hear how they explain this apparent dereliction of their duty to comply with an EU directive while campaigning for more directives from the EU.

ganmo · 27-05-2019 2:17pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

If my memory serves me correctly, one of the first acts carried out by the FG/Labour coalition replacing the FF/Green coalition in 2011 was to issue a statutory instrument on drainage to comply with the closing date for an EU directive requiring legislation on drainage in Ireland that was sitting on the previous Minister of the Environments desk for a few years with nothing done to comply with the directive.

The previous Minister of the Environment?

John Gormley formerly of the Green party.

In reality, the further from any levers of power they stay, the better outcome for all.

I would like to hear how they explain this apparent dereliction of their duty to comply with an EU directive while campaigning for more directives from the EU.

the turf cutting debacle was passed on by gormless too

gozunda · 27-05-2019 2:38pm

ganmo wrote: »

the turf cutting debacle was passed on by gormless too

Not to mention the previous spat between the Green party and IBEC over their respective 'green' credentials and the who was being appointed to the EPA

Greens criticise EPA appointment

The Chairman of the Green Party, John Gormley, has said he has very little confidence in the Environmental Protection Agency following the appointment of Dr Mary Kelly as its new Director General.

He said his criticism was made on the basis of Dr Kelly's previous work at the business group, IBEC, where she held responsibility for environmental policy.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0823/29066-environment/

Which makes it even funnier that IBEC are now attempting to rebrand themselves as the main promoters of carbon taxes.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0527/1051887-ibec-business-carbon-tax/

Pot kettle black comes to mind tbh ...

uck51js9zml2yt · 27-05-2019 4:29pm

gr8 m8 wrote: »

Hello.

Dakar, you should look into establishing a food Forest.

That's exactly what i plan on doing.

Have half an acre ploughed for veg and realised it was too much.

gr8 m8 · 27-05-2019 5:04pm

Hello,

Yeah a half an acre is a lot considering that some people are running a market garden out of that amount of land.

Not that I'm trying to sell it but the book I mentioned before "restoration agriculture" by Mark Shepard explains how he layed out an acre of his land.

He had on an acre,
34 apple trees,
86 chestnut trees,
120 grape Vines,
208 hazelnut bushes,
416 raspberry,
520 red currant bushes.

He also maintained that each acre can support,
1 cow,
1 beef animal,
2 pigs,
10 chickens,
2 sheep.

He worked out that under this system of his that he is supplying enough food to total 5,667,221 kcap (calories)!

Now those numbers represent that acre being used in a pasture rotation where the animals are left to graze for a short period of time and moved on to new pasture while the land rests until they are rotated back in.

I just mentioned it as food for thought. (Get it?).

Water John · 27-05-2019 6:28pm

Jeremy Clarkson an eco-friendly farmer , that should be interesting.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/may/27/from-top-gear-to-the-top-field-how-jeremy-clarkson-became-an-eco-friendly-farmer

Say my name · 27-05-2019 8:44pm

gozunda wrote: »

Not to mention the previous spat between the Green party and IBEC over their respective 'green' credentials and the who was being appointed to the EPA

https://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0823/29066-environment/

Which makes it even funnier that IBEC are now attempting to rebrand themselves as the main promoters of carbon taxes.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0527/1051887-ibec-business-carbon-tax/

Pot kettle black comes to mind tbh ...

I just seen an article about ibec's proposals for agriculture.
Tax and penalties was the whole article and not one mention of payments for storing carbon. It's amazing when one puts on a suit and drives a bmw how one gets a sense to use that golf driver in the boot as a club for the heads of the lower classes.
It seems we've no backup from Teagasc in this regard now either whose sole mantra is food production and keep those driers turning and nothing else matters but maybe plant a few acres of trees or get penalised.
We are literally being sold down the swanee on this if carbon taxes go ahead and soil carbon rewards are not being incentivised as part of that plan. Absolutely zero progress will be made if the whip is favoured. If people don't get vocal on this then agriculture in this country will be the bogman's donkey.

Say my name · 27-05-2019 10:05pm

Back of the envelope calculation...

Yosemitesam posted if I recollect that his soil had a carbon content of 6% and his neighbour's had a carbon content of 4%.

We'll say 8 inches of soil = 2000 cu metres per hectare.
6% = 120 cu metres of stored carbon.

To convert cu metres to tons multiply by 2.41.

So 6% soil carbon in 8 inches of soil equals 289 tons of stored carbon.
His neighbour had 4 % carbon so 192 tons of carbon.

The difference between the two is 97 tons. Taking a monetary value that IBEC quoted of a carbon tax of €80 per ton.
That's a difference between the two farmers of €7,760/hectare.

Edit: I used the conversion rate of concrete to convert m3 to tons. But assuming carbon in its diamond form is the densest material known to science it could be greater than 2.41.

Birdnuts · 27-05-2019 10:23pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

If my memory serves me correctly, one of the first acts carried out by the FG/Labour coalition replacing the FF/Green coalition in 2011 was to issue a statutory instrument on drainage to comply with the closing date for an EU directive requiring legislation on drainage in Ireland that was sitting on the previous Minister of the Environments desk for a few years with nothing done to comply with the directive.

The previous Minister of the Environment?

John Gormley formerly of the Green party.

In reality, the further from any levers of power they stay, the better outcome for all.

I would like to hear how they explain this apparent dereliction of their duty to comply with an EU directive while campaigning for more directives from the EU.

I wouldn't have much faith in the Greens on this matter - while in Government they did FA to change government policy on the spending of CAP money etc. in this country. The likes of Ryan and Cuffe are just snowflake virtue signallers who appeal to a certain smug urban elite with thier meaningless waffle about electric cars, carbon taxes and general corporate greenwash

tractorporn · 27-05-2019 11:10pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

I wouldn't have much faith in the Greens on this matter - while in Government they did FA to change government policy on the spending of CAP money etc. in this country. The likes of Ryan and Cuffe are just snowflake virtue signallers who appeal to a certain smug urban elite with thier meaningless waffle about electric cars, carbon taxes and general corporate greenwash

Cuffe basically just said on Claire Byrne live when pushed for what farmers should transition to that it was hort or forestry. So multiple cultivations or a plantation neither one really that effective increasing biodiversity. I fear that 5% of the voting population is going to screw the rest of us.

Waffletraktor · 27-05-2019 11:26pm

Water John wrote: »

Jeremy Clarkson an eco-friendly farmer , that should be interesting.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/may/27/from-top-gear-to-the-top-field-how-jeremy-clarkson-became-an-eco-friendly-farmer

Tax efficient to give inheritance to his kids and going by cropping plan his land agent(vampire squid type parrasite) got the local contract farming gang in for x per acre and a days shooting.

Changes to benefit the environment...

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