Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

Elmer Blooker · 14-09-2018 1:47pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Democracies are not all the equal unfortunately. Ukraine was essentially a vassal state run by corrupt kleptocrats loyal only to Moscow. The previous "elections" were questionable, and less than 5% of Ukrainians believed they were free of vote rigging.

That said, apart from a minority, the protests were relatively peaceful. Several hundred thousand people marched over several days with their families and kids. Later, when protests intensified, Yanukovych ordered his (special guard) to open fire on protesters and over 100 were killed. That's when the situation really changed

And Ukraine today?
Of course the usual suspects here will use the now standard diversionary tactic by attacking my source but this is the reality of whats going on in EU backed Ukraine.
A very wise decision by Crimea who voted overwhelmingly not to part of mob ruled Ukraine!

No Outrage or Media Coverage by Ukraine's Staunchest Allies.

Not a single US, Canadian or EU News media took the trouble to cover the story.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/hitler-is-the-torchbearer-of-democracy-according-to-chairman-of-ukraines-parliament/5653184

Crimeans woke up one morning to find that there were little green men everywhere.

Describe to me Grayson how Crimea became part of Ukraine? Thanks in advance.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 1:57pm

Annd9 wrote: »

The protesters and police were shot a few days after the civil war erupted on the maidan. I am not defending Yanukovych in any way however there is always two sides to a story .
So have a listen to this .

https://youtu.be/ZEgJ0oo3OA8

The evidence clearly shows the protestors and police were killed by the same sniper team. Some people will deny that, but then they are denying forensic evidence collected by Ukraine doctors.

That those snipers came from Georgia is not that surprising. Mikheil Saakashvili their president at the time is considered a neocon hero by people in the US.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 2:03pm

Let's not forget this conversation. US officials openly talking who should be in power in Ukraine and the US deciding the outcome. I love when this stuff gets leaked it exposes their dirty dealings.

xckjoo · 14-09-2018 2:11pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

There still no evidence these guys are Russian intelligence agents. What your proof they are? What if they are only Russian tourists? Can we really be certain they're not? Yes, I find their tourist story not credible, but that does not mean they were sent to Salisbury by Putin, to carry out out a hit.

You ignoring the evidence so far. The Skiprals left their home at just after 9 am, there no CTV footage released of them returning home. This is problematic because they were spotted leaving home and moving around to different locations in Salisbury town. If they did not return home they were not poisoned by Novitchok on the doorknob, the Russians did not arrive in Salisbury till late after 11 am The Skiprals turned off their phones at the same time British police confirmed this finding. It likely they were trying to avoid surveillance that day, and they possibly were heading out to meet someone? The Novitchok bottle found in Charlie Rowley home was plastic wrapped and sealed? Impossible this was the same batch used to poison Skipral and his daughter. There many discrepancies that you are overlooking.

No of course not. And you'd totally expect concrete proof that a foreign agent committed an assassination on your soil. I think they're required to submit a written application before doing so aren't they? So it can't be that. Governments love bureaucracy so they'd be all about the paperwork if they did work for the government.

They were clearly independent business men on independent business. Or was it on holidays? Independent holidays. Probably saving for years for it. Was going to be the holiday of a lifetime until their feet got wet. I just hope they didn't come in contact with any of that Russian-made nerve agent that was in their hotel room. You just can't trust hotels these days. Always leaving traces of illegal, foreign nerve agents in the sheets

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 2:19pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

There still no evidence these guys are Russian intelligence agents. What your proof they are? What if they are only Russian tourists? Can we really be certain they're not? Yes, I find their tourist story not credible, but that does not mean they were sent to Salisbury by Putin, to carry out out a hit.

You ignoring the evidence so far. The Skiprals left their home at just after 9 am, there no CTV footage released of them returning home. This is problematic because they were spotted leaving home and moving around to different locations in Salisbury town. If they did not return home they were not poisoned by Novitchok on the doorknob, the Russians did not arrive in Salisbury till late after 11 am The Skiprals turned off their phones at the same time British police confirmed this finding. It likely they were trying to avoid surveillance that day, and they possibly were heading out to meet someone? The Novitchok bottle found in Charlie Rowley home was plastic wrapped and sealed? Impossible this was the same batch used to poison Skipral and his daughter. There many discrepancies that you are overlooking.

This is little more than a gish-gallop of Russian proportions. So much so that I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. I think you're firehosing again.

We know that this act was committed by the two people who appeared on Russia Today. If you want to dispute that, please use facts and not the kind of nonsense that that's more suited to the conspiracy theory forum or the Russian media where many of these conspiracy theories originate.

Like I said, it's known who the perpetrators are. You keep saying that things don't make sense based on incomplete information and the bad misinformation that you're filling your head with. Do you know what doesn't make sense? A pair of Russian men in their thirties travelling to Salisbury twice while staying in a hotel room in London where traces of novichok were found and those men not being involved in the poisoning. Do you know what makes even less sense? These same men picking up the phone to call the chief editor of RT's mobile, claiming to own a fitness business and not advertising the damn thing.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 2:20pm

xckjoo wrote: »

No of course not. And you'd totally expect concrete proof that a foreign agent committed an assassination on your soil. I think they're required to submit a written application before doing so aren't they? So it can't be that. Governments love bureaucracy so they'd be all about the paperwork if they did work for the government.

They were clearly independent business men on independent business. Or was it on holidays? Independent holidays. Probably saving for years for it. Was going to be the holiday of a lifetime until their feet got wet. I just hope they didn't come in contact with any of that Russian-made nerve agent that was in their hotel room. You just can't trust hotels these days. Always leaving traces of illegal, foreign nerve agents in the sheets

Do you know these men shared the same room while staying in London? You could say they were sharing a room so they can carry out their operation privately and not be apart. Or this could also be an indication they were two gay men. This would be a problematic declaration for them to make since they live in Russia.

Their passport does show they travel a lot. They visited Milan, Geneva, Paris, Amsterdam, and Rome since 2016

This can be easily solved by showing CTV footage of Skipral car returning home when it alleged these guys sprayed Novicthok on the door of the Skipral home. You can't say that video doesn't exist because they were captured on video leaving.

kooper · 14-09-2018 2:21pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

There still no evidence these guys are Russian intelligence agents. What your proof they are? What if they are only Russian tourists? Can we really be certain they're not? Yes, I find their tourist story not credible, but that does not mean they were sent to Salisbury by Putin, to carry out out a hit.

You ignoring the evidence so far. The Skiprals left their home at just after 9 am, there no CTV footage released of them returning home. This is problematic because they were spotted leaving home and moving around to different locations in Salisbury town. If they did not return home they were not poisoned by Novitchok on the doorknob, the Russians did not arrive in Salisbury till late after 11 am The Skiprals turned off their phones at the same time British police confirmed this finding. It likely they were trying to avoid surveillance that day, and they possibly were heading out to meet someone? The Novitchok bottle found in Charlie Rowley home was plastic wrapped and sealed? Impossible this was the same batch used to poison Skipral and his daughter. There many discrepancies that you are overlooking.

I wouldn't even argue with this guy, here he says that there is no evidence, that this guys are spies, though UK police presented the map of their movement, that traces of Novichok were found in their room, next he gives a link to some documentary saying that this documentary is based on facts. And the facts are that couple guys that say that they did the shooting,I wonder if they were arrested? Any police investigation, there? Or just blah, blah from russian propagandists??? . Looks like the story with Ukrainian pilot Voloshin, that claimed that he shoot down boeing or Spanish air controller, what ever was his name, that claimed he saw that Ukrainian jet did it(and later proved to be pure product of russian propaganda). It pure manipulation, though the goal of russian propaganda not to convince you but to give you a reason to doubt something, all by the book

.

Grayson · 14-09-2018 2:28pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Describe to me Grayson how Crimea became part of Ukraine? Thanks in advance.

Does it matter? It was part of Ukraine. Russia invaded a sovereign country that they had a treaty with

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 2:31pm

kooper wrote: »

I wouldn't even argue with this guy, here he says that there is no evidence, that this guys are spies, though UK police presented the map of their movement, that traces of Novichok were found in their room, next he gives a link to some documentary saying that this documentary is based on facts. And the facts are that couple guys that say that they did the shooting,I wonder if they were arrested? Any police investigation, there? Or just blah, blah from russian propagandists??? . Looks like the story with Ukrainian pilot Voloshin, that claimed that he shoot down boeing or Spanish air controller, what ever was his name, that claimed he saw that Ukrainian jet did it(and later proved to be pure product of russian propaganda). It pure manipulation, though the goal of russian propaganda not to convince you but to give you a reason to doubt something, all by the book .

You think CTV images is evidence they are spies, Jesus.

The only thing for certain right now they were Russians who travelled to Salisbury.

That hotel thing doesn't make any sense. If Novitchok was released in the room people will be feeling sick. You think nobody dressed the beds and cleaned up after they left or other guests stayed in that room? Novichok according to the scientists was a military grade nerve agent and 10 times more potent than VX gas.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 2:45pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The only thing for certain right now they were Russians who travelled to Salisbury.

Is Salisbury popular as a day trip location for non-baltic Russians?

In any case, the cathedral story that they gave doesn't make sense:

They say the snow had melted in London and it was warmer. “We really wanted to see Old Sarum and the cathedral,” said Petrov. They imply that this time they did reach the cathedral and possibly Old Sarum. “The cathedral is very beautiful,” said Boshirov. The pair said they took pictures at the cathedral – and would have been spotted by CCTV cameras there. No images have been released by the counter-terrorism police of them at or near the cathedral. Sources at the cathedral said they have no knowledge of them visiting. They could not have visited Old Sarum – it was closed.

According to the UK authorities, after arriving in Salisbury at 11.48am on 4 March, the men did not go straight to the city centre or the cathedral. They should have turned right into the city if they were on the tourist trail. Instead they turned left and walked directly to the residential area north-west of the city where Skripal lived. They were caught at 11.58am by a CCTV camera at a Shell petrol station on Wilton Road. On the opposite side of the road is a tree-lined path that leads up to the Skripal house on Christie Miller Road. If they went straight to the house and carried out the attack, they would have been at the Skripal front door shortly after noon.

Why would a pair of tourists on a day trip to Salisbury end up in a residential area near the Skripals which is 3 Km from the Cathedral when they were only in Salisbury for 2 hours? You keep saying that things don't make sense but it's obvious that the explanations from these two are what don't make sense.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 2:56pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

Is Salisbury popular as a day trip location for non-baltic Russians?

In any case, the cathedral story that they gave doesn't make sense:

Why would a pair of tourists on a day trip to Salisbury end up in a residential area near the Skripals which is 3 Km from the Cathedral when they were only in Salisbury for 2 hours? You keep saying that things don't make sense but it's obvious that the explanations from these two are what don't make sense.

I don't know but a lot of people from foreign countries visit Salisbury. Stonehenge is not far from there and these Russian men have claimed they were heading there, but heavy snow stopped them from getting there.

That second report is false they were captured on video walking near the petrol station on the main road that was nearby to Skipral home. There no evidence of them entering the estate to Skipral home.

Why don't the British police just release CTV footage of the Skiprals car returning home between 12.00 noon and 1 o clock? It would prove the British claim is correct the Skiprals were poisoned at home. They were able to track their movements when they left home at 9 am and when they were seen in the town.

But there no evidence yet produced showing them returning home after they left at 9 am in the morning. Are they saying there no CTV footage scanning roads near where they live? That's false and we all know it.

indioblack · 14-09-2018 2:59pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

Is Salisbury popular as a day trip location for non-baltic Russians?

In any case, the cathedral story that they gave doesn't make sense:

Why would a pair of tourists on a day trip to Salisbury end up in a residential area near the Skripals which is 3 Km from the Cathedral when they were only in Salisbury for 2 hours? You keep saying that things don't make sense but it's obvious that the explanations from these two are what don't make sense.

Salisbury is a nice place to visit. I've seen the cathedral spire, [which I now know the height of!], and the clock. Did they go to Old Sarum? They should have - it's interesting.
I live 40 miles from Salisbury so I can drive there, the train will take you there - bus, too.
If I lived in Edinburgh would I travel down to visit Salisbury? I might, [probably not].
If I lived in Russia would I come all this way to see a cathedral spire?

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 3:02pm

indioblack wrote: »

Salisbury is a nice place to visit. I've seen the cathedral spire, [which I now know the height of!], and the clock. Did they go to Old Sarum? They should have - it's interesting.
I live 40 miles from Salisbury so I can drive there, the train will take you there - bus, too.
If I lived in Edinburgh would I travel down to visit Salisbury? I might, [probably not].
If I lived in Russia would I come all this way to see a cathedral spire?

they claim they went there but it was closed on the day they said they were there.

xckjoo · 14-09-2018 3:03pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Do you know these men shared the same room while staying in London? You could say they were sharing a room so they can carry out their operation privately and not be apart. Or this could also be an indication they were two gay men. This would be a problematic declaration for them to make since they live in Russia.

Their passport does show they travel a lot. They visited Milan, Geneva, Paris, Amsterdam, and Rome since 2016

Why attack me? I was defending them. Occams Razor and all that.

How do you know they were in Milan, Geneva, Paris, Amsterdam and Rome? Did you see their passport? Don't tell me you just accept it as true because that's what the media said?

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:06pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Why attack me? I was defending them. Occams Razor and all that.

How do you know they were in Milan, Geneva, Paris, Amsterdam and Rome? Did you see their passport? Don't tell me you just accept it as true because that's what the media said?

Scotland Yard said that the two men had “travelled extensively” on their passports. Fontanka reported the two had visited Milan, Geneva, Amsterdam and Paris several times since September 2016.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/salisbury-poisoning-suspects-are-civilians-not-criminals-says-putin-1.3626708

I read another news report they also visited Rome.

xckjoo · 14-09-2018 3:10pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I don't know but a lot of people from foreign countries visit Salisbury. Stonehenge is not far from there and these Russian men have claimed they were heading there, but heavy snow stopped them from getting there.

That second report is false they were captured on video walking near the petrol station on the main road that was nearby to Skipral home. There no evidence of them entering the estate to Skipral home.

Why don't the British police just release CTV footage of the Skiprals car returning home between 12.00 noon and 1 o clock? It would prove the British claim is correct the Skiprals were poisoned at home. They were able to track their movements when they left home at 9 am and when they were seen in the town.

But there no evidence yet produced showing them returning home after they left at 9 am in the morning. Are they saying there no CTV footage scanning roads near where they live? That's false and we all know it.

Why do you think the British police are under any obligation to prove anything to you? Their obligation is to the safety of the British public.

xckjoo · 14-09-2018 3:11pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Scotland Yard said that the two men had “travelled extensively” on their passports. Fontanka reported the two had visited Milan, Geneva, Amsterdam and Paris several times since September 2016.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/salisbury-poisoning-suspects-are-civilians-not-criminals-says-putin-1.3626708

I read another news report they also visited Rome.

But you haven't seen the passports so how do you know that it's true?

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:15pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Scotland Yard said that the two men had “travelled extensively” on their passports. Fontanka reported the two had visited Milan, Geneva, Amsterdam and Paris several times since September 2016.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/salisbury-poisoning-suspects-are-civilians-not-criminals-says-putin-1.3626708

I read another news report they also visited Rome.

Fontanka also said that their passports from 2016 had similar numbers:

One passport number ended at 1294, the other at 1297, indicating that the documents were probably issued at the same time.

Maybe they applied at the same time? I don't know enough about fontanka to say whether it can be trusted, however.

They also said that they booked two flights back to Russia. One on Monday and one on Sunday. That's a bit strange for a tourist too but I don't know if this has been confirmed elsewhere.

kooper · 14-09-2018 3:15pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You think CTV images is evidence they are spies, Jesus.

The only thing for certain right now they were Russians who travelled to Salisbury.

That hotel thing doesn't make any sense. If Novitchok was released in the room people will be feeling sick. You think nobody dressed the beds and cleaned up after they left or other guests stayed in that room? Novichok according to the scientists was a military grade nerve agent and 10 times more potent than VX gas.

what evidence will prove to you that they are spies? Do you want them to have some ID, that would say @I AM A SPY@ ??? Or may be other day Putin will make speech that it was successful operation held on foreign ground, just like in Crimea? I'd bet that even if UK police will show video where those 2 guys spray something on that handle of the house, you would still arguing that we don't know what are they spraying and it might be just perfumes, to make home owners happy. So what evidence will prove to you that those guys are spies?

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:20pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Why do you think the British police are under any obligation to prove anything to you? Their obligation is to the safety of the British public.

The British police version right now is Skipral and his daughter was poisoned between 12 noon and 1 pm at home.

The evidence right now though shows they left home at 9 am and never returned home.

The British police then released CTV of the men walking on a road near their home? If the claim is these men headed to the Skipral home, sprayed this stuff on the door and left.

How do you prove the Skipral and his daughter were indeed poisoned at home you release CTV of their car traveling home between 12am and 1pm that a very convincing case the Skiprals were poisoned at home.

The British police and media are overlooking that the Skiprals were spotted between 1 pm and 4 pm at pubs and restaurants perfectly fine and eating their supper. How long does it take for this nerve agent to kick in? Three hours is a long time for it to work, it just doesn't add up.

FTA69 · 14-09-2018 3:21pm

Why are people doing mental backflips in order to avoid the idea that Putin and the Russian state did in one of their enemies? It's not like they don't have form for this at home and abroad like.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:27pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That second report is false they were captured on video walking near the petrol station on the main road that was nearby to Skipral home. There no evidence of them entering the estate to Skipral home.

Are you telling me that there is nothing unusual about landing at the train station, going the opposite direction away from the town and being spotted 8 minutes from the Skripal home?

This is getting more ridiculous than your 911 thread.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:29pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Why are people doing mental backflips in order to avoid the idea that Putin and the Russian state did in one of their enemies? It's not like they don't have form for this at home and abroad like.

Because they start with the premise that it couldn't be Russia and work backwards from there. The problem with doing that is that those mental backflips are the only way to explain the mountain of evidence implicating Russia.

Billy86 · 14-09-2018 3:29pm

Not directly related but Dutch intelligence have detained two further spies trying to break into a Swiss lab - https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/09/russian-spies-detained-in-the-hague-were-planning-cyber-break-in-at-swiss-lab-nrc/

Mainly linking because I got a laugh that of all labs, he spies targeted the Spiez lab.:D

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:33pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

Are you telling me that there is nothing unusual about landing at the train station, going the opposite direction away from the town and being spotted 8 minutes from the Skripal home?

This is getting more ridiculous than your 911 thread.

What is ridiculous you have accepted this narrative even though we have no evidence the Skiprals returned home after leaving at 9 am in the morning and for some unknown reason, it took 3 hours for Novitchok to work. I don't believe the British police version of them touching the door sometime between 12 am and 1 pm. Their movements have been tracked from 1 pm to 4 pm

wexie · 14-09-2018 3:35pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Not directly related but Dutch intelligence have detained two further spies trying to break into a Swiss lab - https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/09/russian-spies-detained-in-the-hague-were-planning-cyber-break-in-at-swiss-lab-nrc/

Mainly linking because I got a laugh that of all labs, he spies targeted the Spiez lab.:D

They were just tourists!!!!

:rolleyes:

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:42pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

Because they start with the premise that it couldn't be Russia and work backwards from there. The problem with doing that is that those mental backflips are the only way to explain the mountain of evidence implicating Russia.

It based on evidence, that you don't seem to care about. The Skiprals its established fact not Russian propaganda were having meals at restaurants and pubs from 1.15pm to 4 pm. That it took nearly 3 hours for Novitchok to affect them is ludicrous. I love to know what a scientist thinks in regards that. Military grade nerve agent is supposed to affect you relatively quickly.

wexie · 14-09-2018 3:47pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That it took nearly 3 hours for Novitchok to affect them is ludicrous. I love to know what a scientist thinks in regards that. Military grade nerve is supposed to affect you relatively quickly.

And you know this because.....?

Maybe it takes a lot longer when it's absorbed through the skin rather than inhaled, maybe it was Novichok 'lite'™. There are any number of plausible reasons for this, all of which experts have already looked at.

You could really do with trying to understand Occam's razor

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:50pm

wexie wrote: »

And you know this because.....?

Maybe it takes a lot longer when it's absorbed through the skin rather than inhaled, maybe it was Novichok 'lite'™. There are any number of plausible reasons for this, all of which experts have already looked at.

You could really do with trying to understand Occam's razor

If you think that's even remotely possible post information from a scientist who has claimed this can occur, otherwise it just a strawman to deflect.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:54pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Not directly related but Dutch intelligence have detained two further spies trying to break into a Swiss lab - https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/09/russian-spies-detained-in-the-hague-were-planning-cyber-break-in-at-swiss-lab-nrc/

Mainly linking because I got a laugh that of all labs, he spies targeted the Spiez lab.:D

Maybe these rogue tourists who poisoned the Skripals had some other rogue friends who were just trying to help them out.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:55pm

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Someone better explain how the Skipral walked around for 3 hours and never showed symptoms?

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:57pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

What is ridiculous you have accepted this narrative even though we have no evidence the Skiprals returned home after leaving at 9 am in the morning and for some unknown reason, it took 3 hours for Novitchok to work. I don't believe the British police version of them touching the door sometime between 12 am and 1 pm. Their movements have been tracked from 1 pm to 4 pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It based on evidence, that you don't seem to care about. The Skiprals its established fact not Russian propaganda were having meals at restaurants and pubs from 1.15pm to 4 pm. That it took nearly 3 hours for Novitchok to affect them is ludicrous. I love to know what a scientist thinks in regards that. Military grade nerve agent is supposed to affect you relatively quickly.

This has been explained to you by others multiple times. The potency, amount and delivery mechanism make a huge difference.

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 3:58pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Someone better explain how the Skipral walked around for 3 hours and never showed symptoms?

you should really try to read all of a page before replying. you missed this bit just further down. I was just about to post a link to that page so you saved me the bother.

Symptoms are the same as those of other nerve agents as shown in Table 5.11 (p. 257). Local effects are thought to be immediate, while systemic effects may be delayed up to 18 hours.

UP TO 18 HOURS. So tell me now how it is inconceivable that they were still alive 3 hours later?

Edgarfrndly · 14-09-2018 4:02pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Someone better explain how the Skipral walked around for 3 hours and never showed symptoms?

The main route of exposure is thought to be by inhalation, although absorption may also occur via skin or mucous membrane exposure.

That is why ^

The duration it takes to affect via skin is substantially longer.

Skin exposure to VX does not cause immediate or rapid poisoning. Indeed, the first signs and symptoms of exposure can take up to 18 hours.

Source: https://theconversation.com/how-novichok-is-different-from-radioactive-poisons-and-what-this-means-for-decontamination-99464

wexie · 14-09-2018 4:02pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

UP TO 18 HOURS. So tell me now how it is inconceivable that they were still alive 3 hours later?

Cheerful Spring wrote:

yeah but, yeah but...that bit of information doesn't fit my outlandish theory and if I have to start rationally examining my own beliefs I may eventually be forced to come to the conclusion I'm actually wrong, and may have been wrong before!!!

:rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:03pm

wexie wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Blimey i thought that was an actual quote from CS. I nearly passed out.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 4:04pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

UP TO 18 HOURS. So tell me now how it is inconceivable that they were still alive 3 hours later?

He won't. He'll just move on to another debunked conspiracy theory and I and others will have to waste time and energy correcting it.

As I keep saying, it's a firehose of falsehood.

cnocbui · 14-09-2018 4:06pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Someone better explain how the Skipral walked around for 3 hours and never showed symptoms?

You are trolling again. I know for a fact that I have at least twice pointed out to you, with links, that Porton Down determined the Novichok was deliberately denatured and put into a gel-form for absorption through the skin in order to delay by hours the onset of it's effects in order, presumably, give the assassins time to leave the country.

The rapid action time frame for Novichok would be based on the pure agent with a delivery mechanism that caused it to be inhaled as vapour. Any toxin is going to be vastly faster acting if it comes into contact with mucous membranes.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 4:09pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you should really try to read all of a page before replying. you missed this bit just further down. I was just about to post a link to that page so you saved me the bother.

UP TO 18 HOURS. So tell me now how it is inconceivable that they were still alive 3 hours later?

This is VX, not Novitchok try again. Least try to match the nerve agents.

Science article I posted says
Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:15pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This is VX, not Novitchok try again. Least try to match the nerve agents.

Science article I posted says
Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

clearly you are determined to prove how obstinate a human can be. the piece i quoted is directly under the piece you quoted and refers to Novichok. It is the only mention on that page of 18 hours so you cannot tell me you were looking at the wrong part of the page.

Onset

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.
Major symptoms

Symptoms are the same as those of other nerve agents as shown in Table 5.11 (p. 257). Local effects are thought to be immediate, while systemic effects may be delayed up to 18 hours.

Now tell me again that the "up to 18 hours" does not apply to novichok.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 4:17pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You are trolling again. I know for a fact that I have at least twice pointed out to you, with links, that Porton Down determined the Novichok was deliberately denatured and put into a gel-form for absorption through the skin in order to delay by hours the onset of it's effects in order, presumably, give the assassins time to leave the country.

The rapid action time frame for Novichok would be based on the pure agent with a delivery mechanism that caused it to be inhaled as vapour. Any toxin is going to be vastly faster acting if it comes into contact with mucous membranes.

Skripals poisoned by novichok dose of up to 100g, watchdog says

Hardly a small dosage.

Was the bottle found sealed in a box, not a liquid? That means if the people involved had another batch they were spraying it on.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 4:25pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Skripals poisoned by novichok dose of up to 100g, watchdog says

Hardly a small dosage.

Was the bottle found sealed in a box, not a liquid? That means if the people involved had another batch they were spraying it on.

Are you saying that they weren't poisoned by novichok? It seems to me that you're just throwing shít at the wall hoping that it will stick.

cnocbui · 14-09-2018 4:26pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Skripals poisoned by novichok dose of up to 100g, watchdog says

Hardly a small dosage.

Was the bottle found sealed in a box, not a liquid? That means if the people involved had another batch they were spraying it on.

You don't even have a slight grasp on reality, do you?

On 3 May 2018, the head of the OPCW, Ahmet ümcü, informed the New York Times that he had been told that about 50-100g of the nerve agent was thought to have been used in the attack, which indicated it was likely created for use as a weapon and was enough to kill a large number of people.[75] The next day however the OPCW made a correcting statement that the "quantity should probably be characterised in milligrams", though "the OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:29pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Skripals poisoned by novichok dose of up to 100g, watchdog says

Hardly a small dosage.

Was the bottle found sealed in a box, not a liquid? That means if the people involved had another batch they were spraying it on.

100g? i think you need to read that again. 100g of Vx is enough to kill approx 40,000 and novichok is a lot more potent.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 4:30pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

clearly you are determined to prove how obstinate a human can be. the piece i quoted is directly under the piece you quoted and refers to Novichok. It is the only mention on that page of 18 hours so you cannot tell me you were looking at the wrong part of the page.

Now tell me again that the "up to 18 hours" does not apply to novichok.

Local effects, abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea. They are immediate.

System effects - Unconscious, talking but not walking, moderate to severe effects in two or systems more systems (e.g., respiratory, GI, cardiac arrest. muscular, CNS)

Dosage they received was very high over 100 grams.

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:32pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Local effects, abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea. They are immediate.

System effects - Unconscious, talking but not walking, moderate to severe effects in two or systems more systems (e.g., respiratory, GI, cardiac arrest. muscular, CNS)

Dosage they received was very high over 100 grams.

it was in its bollix. if they had 100g of novichok they could have killed the whole town.

cnocbui · 14-09-2018 4:32pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Local effects, abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea. They are immediate.

System effects - Unconscious, talking but not walking, moderate to severe effects in two or systems more systems (e.g., respiratory, GI, cardiac arrest. muscular, CNS)

Dosage they received was very high over 100 grams.

I can think of someone i would like to see get a 100g dose of it.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 4:34pm

Russian Propaganda. The Firehose of falsehood. It might make some more sense in the context of this thread.

Distinctive Features of the Contemporary Model for Russian Propaganda
1. High-volume and multichannel
2. Rapid, continuous, and repetitive
3. Lacks commitment to objective reality
4. Lacks commitment to consistency.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 4:36pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You don't even have a slight grasp on reality, do you?

How is not reality when it was reported there even in your posted link they thought 50 to 100grams was used?

OPCW then says probably only milligrams

OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

It could be grams if all they know. They are judging on a sample headed to them by Porton down.

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:38pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

How is not reality when it was reported there even in your posted link they thought 50 to 100grams was used?

OPCW then says probably only milligrams but they don't what OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

It could be grams if all they know. They are judging on sample headed to them by Porton down.

you mean the report that was corrected because a reporter used the wrong units? that is the hill you want to die on? I think they know themselves how much of a sample they have. They are scientists after all so you should accept what they say.

Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

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