Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Please note that it is not permitted to have referral links posted in your signature. Keep these links contained in the appropriate forum. Thank you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

Who is at fault here?

Options
12357…13

Comments

  • Options
    #122
    hi5
    Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭hi5


    If nobody used the middle lane there wouldn't be any ambiguity (or accidents), maybe that's the intention, a free lane for those who find themselves in the wrong lane.
    Also the last picture in the document is wrong, which probably shows that whoever drew it doesn't quite understand the rule either.
    12 o'clock is only relevant if your approaching from 6 o'clock, but approaching from 6 o'clock in the picture means your coming from across the fields.


  • Options
    #123
    khaldrogo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,572 ✭✭✭khaldrogo


    Wildly Boaring wrote:
    Why is this even a question?


    The pedantics like to try to upset people.

    Yes the blue car should have been watch the red car, anticipating something but the red car is still a clown


  • Options
    #124
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    grogi wrote: »
    No. The drivers blindly following it violate them.



    .

    Drivers blindly following the rules of the road and being well behaved is not something I'd get annoyed about. I reserve that for the rule breakers.

    Hold on now, you've said earlier blue car was at fault for crossing the non existent line of a non existent lane. Indeed you quoted the SI.

    Either the RSA RotR is right or you are. Which is it?


  • Options
    #125
    Doff
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Doff


    The fact people are even saying blue is in the wrong in this thread is horrifying.


  • Options
    #126
    GhostyMcGhost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭GhostyMcGhost


    Caliden wrote: »
    Question is, who ran in to who?

    Did the red car run into the side of the blue or vice versa?

    Lets just say the red car is damaged at passenger door on drivers side
    blue car, damaged dead on centre bumper


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #127
    Sadb
    Registered Users Posts: 10,544 ✭✭✭✭Sadb


    grogi wrote: »
    Is there maybe a precedent then that established those this convention as an important matter in determining fault?

    What happens when the advisory changes? When RSA releases a new version of the convention, from when is it in force?
    All those question show that we simply cannot rely on a RSA publication in that manner.

    Don't get me wrong - it is generally a good practice to follow their advice, but it should not be done blindly nor violate the actual laws of the road. Suddenly entering into other vehicle path is such violation. Unfortunately this leaflet give the impression it is the right thing to do. I honestly believe RSA should retract it and start to promote for spiral rbs - among planners and engineers - which are far less ambiguous. And as such, they have much bigger capacity.

    If you look at the layout, (of any roundabout really) the red car is actually the one that is suddenly entering into another vehicles path, changing lanes. The blue car didn’t change lanes at all.
    Do you think that drivers should flout all rules of the road because they aren’t law? Would you pass your driving test by not adhering to the rules of the road?


  • Options
    #128
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    Doff wrote: »
    The fact people are even saying blue is in the wrong in this thread is horrifying.


    Scary isn't it? Just goes to show how many people out there are clueless when it comes to the basics of roundabout usage.


  • Options
    #129
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Doff wrote: »
    The fact people are even saying blue is in the wrong in this thread is horrifying.

    No one is saying they are in the wrong.

    Put it another way;

    There's a car barreling on the wrong side of the road towards you.

    Do you carry on regardless as you are in the 'right' or do you take evasive action?


  • Options
    #130
    Quandary
    Registered Users Posts: 5,294 ✭✭✭Quandary


    Doff wrote: »
    The fact people are even saying blue is in the wrong in this thread is horrifying.

    It is actually terrifying.

    Only last week in Swords I was in this exact situation (me the blue car) when a lady (red car) tried to take the third exit while being in the outside lane. I had to slam on the breaks to avoid a crash and was very nearly rear ended for my troubles. The woman drove on completely oblivious to the carnage she had very nearly left in her wake.

    I learned a harsh lesson a few years ago when a lady drove into my driver side when she thought she had a right of way to turn right. She tried to claim I was at fault despite her being completely the cause of the accident. After a long protracted affair her insurance company paid out to cover the nearly 3k worth of damage.

    The safest way to drive is to assume that every other driver is prone to being incompetent and always always be alert and ready to react. Oh, and get a dash cam, I got one after that incident and it does actually give you a little peace of mind.


  • Options
    #131
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Oh dear.

    How does this post help?

    Elaborate if you can


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #132
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    68 lost souls wrote: »
    The blue car has to cross the red car to exit the roundabout so they are responsible to check the lane is clear but you could also argue that left lane is for left or straight only
    TheChizler wrote: »
    If the lanes on the roundabout were concentric circles the red car would have been staying in its lane and the blue car would have crossed lanes without yielding. Common enough on roundabouts with no 9 o'clock exit. OP needs more details.
    grogi wrote: »
    Yes. "A driver shall not drive from one traffic lane to another without good cause, and without yielding the right of way to traffic in that other lane." (S.I. No. 294/1964, Section 17 (3)"



    I wasn't. It would be useless to me, as I am often confused if my exit is at five to twelve or five past twelve...

    There is nothing however preventing you from doing so if you wish. Or doing completely opposite... Just remember: yield when crossing dotted line.
    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    No one is saying they are in the wrong.

    Put it another way;

    There's a car barreling on the wrong side of the road towards you.

    Do you carry on regardless as you are in the 'right' or do you take evasive action?

    Eh. Yeah they are.


  • Options
    #133
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How does this post help?

    Elaborate if you can


    You really need to be told? Alright then. Basically what Mr.Ford was saying was you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Specifically, the part where you said "but both are wrong". 0% of the blame can be placed on blue, except perhaps maybe no reacting the correct way or wasn't paying attention to what red was doing, etc. For the purposes of this general discussion, everyone is just focusing on lane usage and lane usage alone. In which case, as I have previously mentioned, in no way is blue at fault for anything as this is a dual lane entry and exit roundabout, where the general golden rule is stretched slightly whereby allowing a 12 o'clock exit while in the right hand lane, something which would normally obviously be wrong.


  • Options
    #134
    porsche boy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭porsche boy


    The RSA rules of the road would dictate the red car is in the wrong.


  • Options
    #135
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    warsaw2018 wrote: »
    red car in wrong lane
    blue car at fault

    Yes clearly the red car should keep to the right lane as they approach this roundabout if they intend going all the way around. Also at very least they should be signalling right if they 'accidentally' end up in the left lane and want to continue around.

    But clearly too the blue car has no business cutting across the path of the red and assuming right of way. The blue car is changing lanes in effect and crossing the left lane to exit the roundabout. So they should be looking in their mirror or over shoulder to see that this is clear.

    My pet hate with roundabouts is with people who just charge onto them. You arrive clearly ahead of another car coming in from a different road on your right. You slow down in case they're an idiot and they just sail blithely through as if they have all the right in the world.


  • Options
    #136
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Yes clearly the red car should keep to the right lane as they approach this roundabout if they intend going all the way around. Also at very least they should be signalling right if they 'accidentally' end up in the left lane and want to continue around.

    But clearly too the blue car has no business cutting across the path of the red and assuming right of way. The blue car is changing lanes in effect and crossing the left lane to exit the roundabout. So they should be looking in their mirror or over shoulder to see that this is clear.

    My pet hate with roundabouts is with people who just charge onto them. You arrive clearly ahead of another car coming in from a different road on your right. You slow down in case they're an idiot and they just sail blithely through as if they have all the right in the world.

    road markings indicated that both approaching lanes were for travelling straight on...

    there was no case of "changing lanes"

    the above is bizarre reasoning


  • Options
    #137
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    lawred2 wrote: »
    road markings indicated that both approaching lanes were for travelling straight on...

    there was no case of "changing lanes"

    the above is bizarre reasoning

    There are two lanes discussed in the OP - they talk of the inside lane and the outside lane (personally I would tend to think that the inside lane is always the one to the left, the op seems to switch these on their mythical roundabout).

    Where there are lanes involved I always signal and look before changing from one to another. That seems like a basic common sense principle.

    In this instance, the blue car should be signalling left to exit the roundabout and checking that it's safe to do so. Forget what you think the rules of the road are, apply common and practical sense.


  • Options
    #138
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    There are two lanes discussed in the OP - they talk of the inside lane and the outside lane (personally I would tend to think that the inside lane is always the one to the left, the op seems to switch these on their mythical roundabout).

    Where there are lanes involved I always signal and look before changing from one to another. That seems like a basic common sense principle.

    In this instance, the blue car should be signalling left to exit the roundabout and looking. Forget what you think the rules of the road are, apply common and practical sense.

    sure - but there is only one car in the wrong and that's the red car.

    obviously in real life - driver of the blue car will hopefully be vigilant enough to take action and avoid a collision but should they fail to be in a position to avoid the collision then the blame lies squarely with the driver in the red car for using the outside lane to go beyond the 12 o clock position on the roundabout.


  • Options
    #139
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Trasna1 wrote: »
    Eh. Yeah they are.
    Total misrepresentation of those posts, and the OP clarified some information since some were made.


  • Options
    #140
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    Wildly Boaring wrote: »
    Red is wrong all day long.

    Why is this even a question?

    100% correct but quite frightening to see so many posters claim otherwise.

    Only exception is where indicated by signage.

    Even the Rules of road have a similar diagram.

    and here's loads more

    https://www.google.ie/search?q=2+lane+roundabout+straight+ahead&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE0L7gw_7cAhXKCMAKHQfUBSsQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=838#imgrc=_


  • Options
    #141
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    lawred2 wrote: »
    sure - but there is only one car in the wrong and that's the red car.

    obviously in real life - driver of the blue car will hopefully be vigilant enough to take action and avoid a collision but should they fail to be in a position to avoid the collision then the blame lies squarely with the driver in the red car for using the outside lane to go beyond the 12 o clock position on the roundabout.

    That's the issue - the blue car should not be in a position whereby they drive into the car on the lane inside them. They should be signalling to exit the roundabout and checking what the car on the left is doing.

    If the blue car having done this exits left to leave and whilst doing so, the red car crashes into them, they have a reasonable case.

    But if the blue car hits the red car, then clearly they haven't been taking due care.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #142
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Yes clearly the red car should keep to the right lane as they approach this roundabout if they intend going all the way around. Also at very least they should be signalling right if they 'accidentally' end up in the left lane and want to continue around.

    But clearly too the blue car has no business cutting across the path of the red and assuming right of way. The blue car is changing lanes in effect and crossing the left lane to exit the roundabout. So they should be looking in their mirror or over shoulder to see that this is clear.

    My pet hate with roundabouts is with people who just charge onto them. You arrive clearly ahead of another car coming in from a different road on your right. You slow down in case they're an idiot and they just sail blithely through as if they have all the right in the world.

    the blue car is not changing lanes - it approached in lane two and continued through the roundabout to continue on the road in lane 2

    By your assumption the red car could go round and round all day long and be "right" as its "staying in the lane"


  • Options
    #143
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Whats the obvious hazard?

    If red car is behind blue car, but still in the left lane, then why on earth would the blue car be predicting that the red car was going to cut across them?:confused:

    whatever you do, don't ever cycle or ride a motorbike anywhere because you will die if you think like that


  • Options
    #144
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    If there was a collision,
    458998.png

    I'd blame blue car in 1. and red car in 2.


  • Options
    #145
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    the blue car is not changing lanes - it approached in lane two and continued through the roundabout to continue on the road in lane 2

    By your assumption the red car could go round and round all day long and be "right" as its "staying in the lane"

    Yes cars can and sometime do go round & round a roundabout, that's not an offence, is it?

    Clearly the red car should keep to the right lane if they intend going around.

    But the OP and common sense says there ARE lanes, whether marked or implied on this roundabout - there is room for two car lanes. The blue car in the outside lane as they approach the roundabout continue around and is crossing the left or inside lane as they choose to exit. So they should be signalling and checking, as with any lane/ junction change.

    That's the mindset you need for avoiding accidents.


  • Options
    #146
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    sKeith wrote: »
    If there was a collision,
    458998.png

    I'd blame blue car in 1. and red car in 2.

    Yes I would agree, assuming that the blue car has signaled their intention to exit left and checked in their mirror.


  • Options
    #147
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    sKeith wrote: »
    If there was a collision,
    458998.png

    I'd blame blue car in 1. and red car in 2.
    Not sure it's so simple. There are actual lane markings on this roundabout unlike the OP. If you squint it looks like the red car is crossing a lane while the blue doesn't (eyesight dependent).


  • Options
    #148
    Sadb
    Registered Users Posts: 10,544 ✭✭✭✭Sadb


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Yes cars can and sometime do go round & round a roundabout, that's not an offence, is it?

    Clearly the red car should keep to the right lane if they intend going around.

    But the OP and common sense says there ARE lanes, whether marked or implied on this roundabout - there is room for two car lanes. The blue car in the outside lane as they approach the roundabout continue around and is crossing the left or inside lane as they choose to exit. So they should be signalling and checking, as with any lane/ junction change.

    That's the mindset you need for avoiding accidents.

    Nope, the blue car is not crossing any lanes. they would only be crossing lanes if they started off in the right hand lane and were trying to get into the left hand lane after the roundabout, which clearly they are not.


  • Options
    #149
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    khaldrogo wrote: »
    The pedantics like to try to upset people.

    Yes the blue car should have been watch the red car, anticipating something but the red car is still a clown

    "pedants"

    You are welcome. :cool:


  • Options
    #150
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    That's the issue - the blue car should not be in a position whereby they drive into the car on the lane inside them. They should be signalling to exit the roundabout and checking what the car on the left is doing.

    If the blue car having done this exits left to leave and whilst doing so, the red car crashes into them, they have a reasonable case.

    But if the blue car hits the red car, then clearly they haven't been taking due care.

    Traffic on the right has right of way.

    I really can't believe that we are still discussing how a driver that was cut up on a roundabout could be at fault for causing an accident. It really makes me wonder who I'm sharing the road with.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #151
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Yes clearly the red car should keep to the right lane as they approach this roundabout if they intend going all the way around. Also at very least they should be signalling right if they 'accidentally' end up in the left lane and want to continue around.

    But clearly too the blue car has no business cutting across the path of the red and assuming right of way. The blue car is changing lanes in effect and crossing the left lane to exit the roundabout. So they should be looking in their mirror or over shoulder to see that this is clear.

    My pet hate with roundabouts is with people who just charge onto them. You arrive clearly ahead of another car coming in from a different road on your right. You slow down in case they're an idiot and they just sail blithely through as if they have all the right in the world.

    If the red car finds themselves in the wrong lane, at BEST they should indicate and wait until their way is clear. Their way is NOT clear if the blue car is exiting correctly.

    Frankly the Red car should suck it up and exit and double back when possible.
    Its this attitude that leads to people reversing up the hard shoulder to take a motorway exit they missed.


Advertisement