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Who is at fault here?

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12467…13

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    #92
    V8 Interceptor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭V8 Interceptor


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    People need to realise that being an asshole and being in the wrong are not the same thing. Red car is an idiot, blue car left their lane and hit them.More evidence that the majority of drivers shouldn't be on the road.
    What? :confused:


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    #93
    Sadb
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭Sadb


    Does anyone else have
    “The red car and the blue car had a race, all red wants to do is stuff his face, he eats everything he sees, from trucks to prickly trees, but smart old blue, he took the Milky Way”

    stuck in their head?
    No? Just me?


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    #94
    V8 Interceptor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭V8 Interceptor


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Do you actually own a car? There are roundabouts like that all over the place.

    Can't think of a single one. Why are there so many pointless roundabouts constructed?
    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    The question was who would be at fault in the event of a collision. That's the car that left their lane just because they were in the 'right'. You don't drive in accordance to where other traffic should be, you drive in accordance to where it actually is.

    The Blue car didn't leave its lane.

    Unless you're talking about exiting the roundabout!


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    #95
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Deleted User wrote:
    Red is more wrong by forcing a situation, but both are wrong.


    Oh dear.


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    #96
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Actually if I recall correctly, the only rule directly relating to a roundabout is that you must turn left on entry, hence why it's an offence to drive straight over mini RaBs


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    #97
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    RustyNut wrote: »
    This is one of the accidents that the insurance companies love. They will put it down to a 50/50 and gouge both drivers for increased premiums and hammer both ncd's.

    Nope. The missus had almost this exact crash last year. She was blue and going straight. He was red and turning right.

    I sent insurance a link to google maps showing the road markings. His insurance folded faster than Superman on laundry day.


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    #98
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    red in the wrong lane and blue not able to predict an obvious hazard


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    #99
    Sexual Chocolate
    Registered Users Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sexual Chocolate


    Red car is in the wrong. Had the exact same thing happen to me earlier this year and insurance were satisfied that I was not at fault.


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    #100
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    V8 Interceptor wrote: »
    Can't think of a single one. Why are there so many pointless roundabouts constructed?

    To be fair, if you added another exit (for example at 3 O'Clock on that diagram like the Dundrum roundabout discussed earlier), the red car should still be staying in the left lane.


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    #101
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    frozenfrozen wrote: »
    red in the wrong lane and blue not able to predict an obvious hazard

    Whats the obvious hazard?

    If red car is behind blue car, but still in the left lane, then why on earth would the blue car be predicting that the red car was going to cut across them?:confused:


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    #102
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Sadb wrote: »
    Does anyone else have
    “The red car and the blue car had a race, all red wants to do is stuff his face, he eats everything he sees, from trucks to prickly trees, but smart old blue, he took the Milky Way”

    stuck in their head?
    No? Just me?

    I do now!:(


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    #103
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    GhostyMcGhost wrote: »
    Hi All

    Sorry for the crude drawing.

    Screen_Shot_2018_08_20_at_22_58_22.png

    This image was cropped for me on mobile so it's only now I'm seeing the arrows on the entrance, strange.

    The arrows imply the left lane entering from 6 o'clock must exit at 12, no ambiguity about the red car being the one at fault. If red wanted to carry around in the left lane there's no (legal) problem doing that, they just have to wait until blue is past, and cross the lane carefully.


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    #104
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Seems like rules of the road literature have changed since I read the rules of road last or maybe driving instructors are teaching people their own interpretation of the rules.

    As i recall it, left lane is for exit 1 and 2.
    Right lane is for exit 2 and above.

    There was no mention of clocks in the round about section at all. No 12 o'clock anything.

    The rules were quite simple, as anybody who is in left lane is either already off the roundabout (exit 1), or is exiting the same exit as the person in the right hand lane.

    By these rules, blue is in the wrong. They are using the right hand land and exiting the roundabout at exit 1, which they should not be doing. They must continue around to exit 2 or greater if using the right hand lane.


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    #105
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    sKeith wrote: »
    Seems like rules of the road literature have changed since I read the rules of road last or maybe driving instructors are teaching people their own interpretation of the rules.

    As i recall it, left lane is for exit 1 and 2.
    Right lane is for exit 2 and above.

    That convention is much better. The most
    sKeith wrote: »
    There was no mention of clocks in the round about section at all. No 12 o'clock anything.

    That o'clock rule is simply ridiculous and the only place I have ever seen it is the RSA leaflet. As pointed out previously, a driver doesn't have a navigational equipment required to determine if the intended exit has heading at -5° or +5°. And with that rule that would be a difference between inside and outside lane.
    sKeith wrote: »
    The rules were quite simple, as anybody who is in left lane is either already off the roundabout (exit 1), or is exiting the same exit as the person in the right hand lane.

    By these rules, blue is in the wrong. They are using the right hand land and exiting the roundabout at exit 1, which they should not be doing. They must continue around to exit 2 or greater if using the right hand lane.

    Unfortunately those are only conventions, mainly to give the ridiculously designed roundabouts a bit more throughput.

    We would need a very simple change to a way we mark the exits from the roundabouts and there would be no ambiguity to anyone...


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    #106
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,298 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    sKeith wrote: »
    Seems like rules of the road literature have changed since I read the rules of road last or maybe driving instructors are teaching people their own interpretation of the rules.

    As i recall it, left lane is for exit 1 and 2.
    Right lane is for exit 2 and above.

    There was no mention of clocks in the round about section at all. No 12 o'clock anything.

    The rules were quite simple, as anybody who is in left lane is either already off the roundabout (exit 1), or is exiting the same exit as the person in the right hand lane.

    By these rules, blue is in the wrong. They are using the right hand land and exiting the roundabout at exit 1, which they should not be doing. They must continue around to exit 2 or greater if using the right hand lane.

    nah - unless road markings dictate otherwise then you are supposed to follow the rules for clock positions 12, 3, 6 and 9...

    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf


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    #107
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,298 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    grogi wrote: »
    That convention is much better. The most



    That o'clock rule is simply ridiculous and the only place I have ever seen it is the RSA leaflet. As pointed out previously, a driver doesn't have a navigational equipment required to determine if the intended exit has heading at -5° or +5°. And with that rule that would be a difference between inside and outside lane.



    Unfortunately those are only conventions, mainly to give the ridiculously designed roundabouts a bit more throughput.

    We would need a very simple change to a way we mark the exits from the roundabouts and there would be no ambiguity to anyone...

    it's not that complicated really...


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    #108
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,544 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Gonna side with the naysayers here and go with Blue being technically in the wrong, as they changed lane without yielding to traffic in the lane they were entering - which is in direct contravention on the actual law while, as I understand it, all the various guidance on roundabout usage exists only in the ROTR, and not the actual law itself. In reality, I'd call it 50/50 - red is obviously an idiot, and Blue should have been paying more attention rather than just barreling through presuming where Red was going.


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    #109
    Caliden
    Registered Users Posts: 5,982 ✭✭✭Caliden


    Question is, who ran in to who?

    Did the red car run into the side of the blue or vice versa?


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    #110
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    sKeith wrote: »
    Seems like rules of the road literature have changed since I read the rules of road last or maybe driving instructors are teaching people their own interpretation of the rules.

    As i recall it, left lane is for exit 1 and 2.
    Right lane is for exit 2 and above.

    There was no mention of clocks in the round about section at all. No 12 o'clock anything.

    The rules were quite simple, as anybody who is in left lane is either already off the roundabout (exit 1), or is exiting the same exit as the person in the right hand lane.

    By these rules, blue is in the wrong. They are using the right hand land and exiting the roundabout at exit 1, which they should not be doing. They must continue around to exit 2 or greater if using the right hand lane.

    Those rules are to be read in the absence of road markings. Where there are arrows on the road they supersede this. As per the OPs post, Blue is correct as the arrow in the right hand lane show straight ahead.

    But I agree with you on the old rules. They were unambiguous. Changing the rules was a stupid idea as you now have 2 sets of people thought to use a roundabout in different ways. Slow clap for the RSA.


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    #111
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    lawred2 wrote: »
    nah - unless road markings dictate otherwise then you are supposed to follow the rules for clock positions 12, 3, 6 and 9...

    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

    This unfortunate leaflet is quoted and quoted again. But what is it based on? What is the law they derive that convention?

    I could create a similar leaflet instructing people exiting between 3 and 3:15 to drive only in reverse. If there isn't any law to support it, what would make it significant in determining fault?

    I have said it before. RSA was founded to promote safety. Ironically that particular publication has a reverse effect.


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    #112
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    lawred2 wrote: »
    it's not that complicated really...

    The simple fact that every roundabout question reaches at least 10 pages shows it is at least misunderstood and ambiguous.


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    #113
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,298 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    grogi wrote: »
    This unfortunate leaflet is quoted and quoted again. But what is it based on? What is the law they derive that convention?

    I could create a similar leaflet instructing people exiting between 3 and 3:15 to drive only in reverse. If there isn't any law to support it, what would make it significant in determining fault?

    I have said it before. RSA was founded to promote safety. Ironically that particular publication has a reverse effect.

    I don't think there is any legislation for this - it's an advisory convention


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    #114
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    lawred2 wrote: »
    I don't think there is any legislation for this - it's an advisory convention

    Is there maybe a precedent then that established those this convention as an important matter in determining fault?

    What happens when the advisory changes? When RSA releases a new version of the convention, from when is it in force?
    All those question show that we simply cannot rely on a RSA publication in that manner.

    Don't get me wrong - it is generally a good practice to follow their advice, but it should not be done blindly nor violate the actual laws of the road. Suddenly entering into other vehicle path is such violation. Unfortunately this leaflet give the impression it is the right thing to do. I honestly believe RSA should retract it and start to promote for spiral rbs - among planners and engineers - which are far less ambiguous. And as such, they have much bigger capacity.


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    #115
    Trasna1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    grogi wrote: »
    Is there maybe a precedent then that established those this convention as an important matter in determining fault?

    What happens when the advisory changes? When RSA releases a new version of the convention, from when is it in force?

    All those question show that we simply cannot rely on a RSA publication in that manner. It is generally a good practice to follow their advice, but it should not be done blindly nor violate the actual laws of the road.

    The advisory in this case doesn't violate the laws of the road. In fact it's the only way for the roundabout to function properly with max throughput.


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    #116
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    lawred2 wrote: »
    nah - unless road markings dictate otherwise then you are supposed to follow the rules for clock positions 12, 3, 6 and 9...

    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf


    In that literature, under the section 'golden rule' why insert the word 'generally' for right hand lane use. It just makes me think they don't know what they are talking about.


    Also, last roundabout picture, left lane can be used for exiting exit 2, if no local signage prohibits it.



    I believe this is why they added the word generally, because its not a golden rule at all. Its a this works in 95% of cases, sort of semi-golden rule of thumb.


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    #117
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Trasna1 wrote: »
    The advisory in this case doesn't violate the laws of the road.

    No. The drivers blindly following it violate them.
    In fact it's the only way for the roundabout to function properly with max throughput.

    Wasn't it me that mentioned the throughput a few posts before? You're right - those conventions are designed mainly to maximise throughput. But is the max throughput a goal in its own? Maybe we should increase the allowed speed and on signalised junctions reduce the amber light period? Both could increase the throughput...


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    #118
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    Oh the red car and the blue car had a race
    All that red could do was smash his face
    he didn't follow the rules
    like lots of cars driven by fools
    but smart old blue he took his right of way
    :D


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    #119
    hi5
    Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭hi5


    grogi wrote: »



    That o'clock rule is simply ridiculous and the only place I have ever seen it is the RSA leaflet. As pointed out previously, a driver doesn't have a navigational equipment required to determine if the intended exit has heading at -5° or +5°. And with that rule that would be a difference between inside and outside lane.



    The 12 o'clock rule is based on the approach sign...

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3179883,-6.3345241,3a,37.5y,114.87h,92.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLQ5muGddwnle1bJCw7gMuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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    #120
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    hi5 wrote: »
    The 12 o'clock rule is based on the approach sign...

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3179883,-6.3345241,3a,37.5y,114.87h,92.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLQ5muGddwnle1bJCw7gMuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


    The link shows the Walkinstown roundabout, which is not covered in the o'clock document at all. This is a three lane roundabout with mostly three lane entrances, only one entrance has the two lanes the document talks about.
    If you were to follow the documentation, nobody would use the middle lane.


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    #121
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    sKeith wrote: »
    The link shows the Walkinstown roundabout, which is not covered in the o'clock document at all. This is a three lane roundabout with mostly three lane entrances, only one entrance has the two lanes the document talks about.
    If you were to follow the documentation, nobody would use the middle lane.

    The correct procedure at Walkinstown is to bless yourself, watch for a hit of a gap then floor it and hope for the best.


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