Affordability of Property and Irish Wages/Salaries

ionapaul · 11-10-2018 11:11am

Also missing from the calculations above is the number of 30 year old professional couples on €150k combined (think that is the figures people are talking about?) that have savings far in excess as the minimum 10% deposit amounts something bandied about. Couples earning €100k+ for six or seven years before buying can very easily have six-figure savings and investments, and that's without the bank of Mum and Dad pitching in. Remember that in a market with tight supply, just having the salaries to 'justify' a certain house purchase price range may not do much good if you get into a bidding war with a similarly aged couple on similar salaries, who have €150k extra in savings for whatever reason.

Obviously there are not too many of them around BUT prices are set at the margins, people can be very frugal, parents can be very generous, etc... I know a good few of my relations/peers bought their first homes in their mid-30s and would have went into the search with €200k in the bank. The age profile of the average home buyers in Ireland (on an upward trend since the Celtic Tiger I believe) has definitely contributed to the rising prices, as savings have come into the picture more and more as a result.

Zenify · 11-10-2018 11:14am

I think we should all stop focusing on small groups and the top 10% as keeps getting mentioned and look at the entire property market. Could we all agree that the majority of people in Dublin who would like to buy a home earn under 45k?

11-10-2018 11:15am

Zenify wrote: »

I think we should all stop focusing on small groups and the top 10% as keeps getting mentioned and look at the entire property market. Could we all agree that the majority of people in Dublin who would like to buy a home earn under 45k?

45k-ish is the average wage for a full time worker so... Not sure I do agree?

Zenify · 11-10-2018 11:20am

Most people agree the average is taken up by a lot of the top earners. These people usually already own property..?

draiochtanois · 11-10-2018 11:20am

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11-10-2018 11:24am

Cyrus wrote: »

But they can afford a good quality 3 bedroom house in a desirable area.

3 bed stillorgan - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/3-bed-duplex-stillorgan-gate-upper-kilmacud-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/3816558
3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-airpark-court-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4233345
3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/scholarstown-wood-scholarstown-road-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4089483
3 bed castlkeknock - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/hse-13-oatlands-park-castleknock-dublin-15/4268930

there was loads of houses in clayfarm at these levels

I'm saying to the other 90% that i don't think 90% of people should be able to afford a house in ballsbridge.

They are all glum enough options for €500/€600k IMO

Cyrus · 11-10-2018 11:28am

Augeo wrote: »

They are all glum enough options for €500/€600k IMO

they are good quality 3 bedroom homes in 'nice' parts of the county, thats what people are referring to.

maybe peoples expectations of what 5-600k gets them is skewed?

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 11-10-2018 11:29am

Augeo wrote: »

They are all glum enough options for €500/€600k IMO

Would agree. But such is the market now in the "posh" Dublin suburbs. Though that castle knock one in particular is suffering from a serious case of post code identify crisis.

11-10-2018 11:29am

Ah yeah, each to their own. I might have to buy similar some day myself :pac:

Cyrus · 11-10-2018 11:30am

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Would agree. But such is the market now in the "posh" Dublin suburbs. Though that castle knock one in particular is suffering from a serious case of post code identify crisis.

pretty common in d15 no?

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 11-10-2018 12:11pm

Cyrus wrote: »

pretty common in d15 no?

O common alright but moving a house from blanch to castle knock adds 100 k to the price. People are funny

mariaalice · 11-10-2018 12:47pm

The reason older established suburbs are popular is the general infrastructure and in Dublin education, the older suburbs tend to have very good schools just look at the school league tables the pre-1970s suburbs also tend to have a better mix of housing and houses with garages and large gardens. That is what put prices up its interesting to look at the very good nonfee paying schoosl and the cost of housing around them.

accensi0n · 11-10-2018 1:12pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

Too many people focus on wages when in tech tcomp is what is driving the ability to buy and hence the housing market.

A tech worker might have a salary of 80 - 90k but also pulldown another 150k in share related income.

five years of that is 375k after tax - a couple like that makes it 750k and they still had their salaries all that time too.

Tech is the new banking.

Think your share amount is far overstated. If not, then I'm moving to a different tech company!

seamus · 11-10-2018 1:23pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Few and far between tbh.

Might have €150k in sellable shares after five or six years, if they've gotten lucky enough to have chosen the right company.

The majority of tech workers will have share options which increase in value by inflation, at best.

Getting €150k in share-related income every year? Nah. That was 20 years ago, maybe. And then if you were lucky enough to get in on the ground level with big brands.

draiochtanois · 11-10-2018 1:32pm

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beaz2018 · 11-10-2018 1:34pm

every few months this forum goes from a property discussion to a "how much do they get paid" argument, looking forward to this one ending soon

Bluefoam · 11-10-2018 1:39pm

beaz2018 wrote: »

every few months this forum goes from a property discussion to a "how much do they get paid" argument, looking forward to this one ending soon

plus the "I'm an incredible landlord" threads... amatures should sell up and go home

seamus · 11-10-2018 1:39pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Might just be different experiences, but I've reviewed many job specs and done quite a few interviews over the last five years and haven't seen anyone except startups offering actual stock in compensation.

Like I say, could be just differing experiences, I tend to avoid big, big tech companies. Maybe they do offer actual stock and not just options.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 11-10-2018 1:42pm

My missus works in an established tech company and gets some decent shares every year, but only about 10 k a year. I work in pharma and get **** all

11-10-2018 2:04pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You also don't get that loads of folk working in the companies you mention are paid peanuts and those on the figures you mention are not a huge proportion of the house buying public.

Cyrus · 11-10-2018 2:16pm

beaz2018 wrote: »

every few months this forum goes from a property discussion to a "how much do they get paid" argument, looking forward to this one ending soon

you need to get paid to buy a property

Cyrus · 11-10-2018 2:17pm

seamus wrote: »

Might just be different experiences, but I've reviewed many job specs and done quite a few interviews over the last five years and haven't seen anyone except startups offering actual stock in compensation.

Like I say, could be just differing experiences, I tend to avoid big, big tech companies. Maybe they do offer actual stock and not just options.

All of the established ones give RSU's.

Hunchback · 11-10-2018 9:35pm

Aylin Jolly Backyard wrote:

Considered relatively posh is a nonsense. What does it even mean?

Presumably desireable

Hunchback · 11-10-2018 9:35pm

Aylin Jolly Backyard wrote:

Considered relatively posh is a nonsense. What does it even mean?

Presumably desireable

LirW · 11-10-2018 9:57pm

It's all good, seems we all need to work in a big 4 as either account, lawyer or coder in order to buy in Dublin; silly me, how did I not think about that earlier!
All the chefs, care workers, civil servants under HEO grade, nurses and guards can go to shoite and move to Balbriggan, they're not worthy for city residence.

keane2097 · 11-10-2018 10:10pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Is the notion here that more than a handful of people in Facebook, Google and Microsoft in Dublin offices are being given 50k+ a year in RSUs?

Corb_lund · 11-10-2018 11:44pm

LirW wrote: »

It's all good, seems we all need to work in a big 4 as either account, lawyer or coder in order to buy in Dublin; silly me, how did I not think about that earlier!
All the chefs, care workers, civil servants under HEO grade, nurses and guards can go to shoite and move to Balbriggan, they're not worthy for city residence.

Society will value things differently, just like revenue generators in a firm will earn more than say ops etc

Not sure it's feasible for everyone to have their choice of place. If more than one person wants somewhere there will be a price premium.

Care workers, nurses etc are always going to fall behind that curve?

Corb_lund · 11-10-2018 11:47pm

keane2097 wrote: »

Is the notion here that more than a handful of people in Facebook, Google and Microsoft in Dublin offices are being given 50k+ a year in RSUs?

No but there are a lot of people being paid substantially more than some professions. My boss earns multiples what I do and the senior management earn multiple tens times as much as me.

Hell even just drive down through business estates at the different units. A boss owns those buildings and will have more resources etc

LirW · 12-10-2018 12:06am

Corb_lund wrote: »

Society will value things differently, just like revenue generators in a firm will earn more than say ops etc

Not sure it's feasible for everyone to have their choice of place. If more than one person wants somewhere there will be a price premium.

Care workers, nurses etc are always going to fall behind that curve?

I don't think it's often a case of living in your area of choice but living anywhere within a reasonable distance of work.
It's all well and good talking about professional couples on quadrillion moneys but the reality is that most aren't.
I don't think it's a solution to ship off people that earn median income to Kildare and let them commute in a sub-par transport system while the city is either for top earners or people in social housing.

Yes, some people earn a lot but a hell of a lot more don't and fall behind. Upskill get isn't an option for everyone, some people love their meh paying jobs and not everyone can become a lawyer. Are they less deserving of a house anywhere close to work that's not a ridiculous commute?

Cyrus · 12-10-2018 12:17am

LirW wrote: »

It's all good, seems we all need to work in a big 4 as either account, lawyer or coder in order to buy in Dublin; silly me, how did I not think about that earlier!
All the chefs, care workers, civil servants under HEO grade, nurses and guards can go to shoite and move to Balbriggan, they're not worthy for city residence.

Everyone can’t have what everyone wants , so obviously those who earn more will get to live in the best areas how else would it or should it work

12-10-2018 8:24am

keane2097 wrote: »

Is the notion here that more than a handful of people in Facebook, Google and Microsoft in Dublin offices are being given 50k+ a year in RSUs?

Some might have been awarded stock that ended up at that value, sure.

I know someone who works for one of those companies, they we given stock worth about a years salary that vests over a number of years. But the share price is set at the start of employment so if the share price goes up a lot over the course of employment you can end up with a lot of money.

I have no idea if that's generous or not as things go, there might be another company that gives you two years salary worth, I have no idea.

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-10-2018 8:33am

Didn't the last time we had this argument, or was it the time before that - someone linked a % of households earning over X grapgh and the households over 100K were in the top 95th percentile IIRC.

Baby01032012 · 12-10-2018 8:35am

Bluefoam wrote: »

plus the "I'm an incredible landlord" threads... amatures should sell up and go home

No likes for your post...go figure

12-10-2018 8:49am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Didn't the last time we had this argument, or was it the time before that - someone linked a % of households earning over X grapgh and the households over 100K were in the top 95th percentile IIRC.

I'm not surprised at all.

Corb_lund · 12-10-2018 8:51am

LirW wrote: »

I don't think it's often a case of living in your area of choice but living anywhere within a reasonable distance of work.
It's all well and good talking about professional couples on quadrillion moneys but the reality is that most aren't.
I don't think it's a solution to ship off people that earn median income to Kildare and let them commute in a sub-par transport system while the city is either for top earners or people in social housing.

Yes, some people earn a lot but a hell of a lot more don't and fall behind. Upskill get isn't an option for everyone, some people love their meh paying jobs and not everyone can become a lawyer. Are they less deserving of a house anywhere close to work that's not a ridiculous commute?

I'm sorry but if people are happy with their meh job then they can't be unhappy about living in a meh area?? Contrary to some opinions most people (outside of the ultrarich) actually work very hard to raise themselves above average and thus have above average cars, houses etc

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-10-2018 8:54am

Corb_lund wrote: »

I'm sorry but if people are happy with their meh job then they can't be unhappy about living in a meh area?? Contrary to some opinions most people (outside of the ultrarich) actually work very hard to raise themselves above average and thus have above average cars, houses etc

A house in Kilbarrack now commands the guts of 325K. Meh workers as you folk are putting it would no doubt be delighted with a meh area.

beaz2018 · 12-10-2018 9:01am

what does "meh" stand for?

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 12-10-2018 9:07am

beaz2018 wrote: »

what does "meh" stand for?

Think its the opposite of posh that we had a chat about 2 pages ago.

Shedite27 · 12-10-2018 9:15am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Didn't the last time we had this argument, or was it the time before that - someone linked a % of households earning over X grapgh and the households over 100K were in the top 95th percentile IIRC.

Can't find the link but about a year ago I read that 7% of households earn more than €100k

ELM327 · 12-10-2018 9:29am

Shedite27 wrote: »

Can't find the link but about a year ago I read that 7% of households earn more than €100k

That's households though.
Not individual earners.

My household is hovering near that mark. And we're not well off, or even near it!
100k for 2 incomes is not lots.

LirW · 12-10-2018 9:32am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

A house in Kilbarrack now commands the guts of 325K. Meh workers as you folk are putting it would no doubt be delighted with a meh area.

I'd love a house in Kilbarrack but that's way way out of our price range unfortunately.

For many it's not about giving out because they can't get their area of choice, some couples or families have to decide on the least sh1tty compromise which is either stay renting, buy and have a long commute or buy in a seriously unsafe area closer to town, like Southwest Finglas.

There's a reason why there's still an awful lot of demand in the sub-350k market.

Also I see threads here quite regularly where people on average salaries are clueless on what to do because they couldn't buy anywhere near the M50.

Bob24 · 12-10-2018 10:03am

Cyrus wrote: »

well where do you mean then because i have listed houses in good parts of dublin that people can buy, what point are you trying to make?

The options you listed are fine (I actually viewed Stilorgan Gate back when it was released and its rather decent, although FYI what you are referencing is a duplex apartment and if my memory serves well the starting price for a house there was around 800k).

But I’d be concerned if we acknowledge they are reserved to what are probably the top 5% of households at the age of having young children. Again, no one has any entitlement but from a long term social balance point of view I’d be a lot more comfortable if something like a Stillorgan Gate 3 beds apartment was more for the top 20 or 25%; and the top 5% were rather looking at a place like Ranelagh (or Stillorgan Gate houses rather that apartments). I might sound obsessed but my recurring line of thoughts is that while I don’t feel sorry for that 30yo 150k income household buying an apartment in Stilorgan Gate, the fact that it is as good as it gets for them has a knock on effect on households in all of the lower income brackets, and eventually this is what is causing the housing crisis and in other countries has been part of the lower/middle class revolt as I was mentioning earlier. And while the current situation is still okish (though not great), if the dominant argument is that it is all grand and there is no problem with those prices it means we are going to accept even higher prices. And each increase pushes higher earners towards what used to be middle class areas and in turns kicks lower earners out of the city (mirroring the electoral maps for things like Brexit whereby those who have been kicked out start revolting from the very remote and poorly connected suburbs).

Cyrus · 12-10-2018 10:31am

Bob24 wrote: »

The options you listed are fine (I actually viewed Stilorgan Gate back when it was released and its rather decent, although FYI what you are referencing is a duplex apartment and if my memory serves well the starting price for a house there was around 800k).

But I’d be concerned if we acknowledge they are reserved to what are probably the top 5% of households at the age of having young children. Again, no one has any entitlement but from a long term social balance point of view I’d be a lot more comfortable if something like a Stillorgan Gate 3 beds apartment was more for the top 20 or 25%; and the top 5% were rather looking at a place like Ranelagh (or Stillorgan Gate houses). I might sound obsessed but my recurring line of thoughts is that while I don’t feel sorry for that 30yo 150k income household buying an apartment in Stilorgan Gate, the fact that it is as good as it gets for them has a knock on effect on households in all of the lower income brackets, and eventually this is what is causing the housing crisis and in other countries has been part of the lower/middle class revolt as I was mentioning earlier. And while the current situation is still okish (though not great), if the dominant argument is that it is all grand and there is no problem with those prices it means we are going to accept even higher prices And each increase pushes higher earners towards what used to be middle class areas and in turns kicks lower earners out of the city (mirroring the electoral maps for things like Brexit whereby those who have been kicked out start revolting from the very remote and poorly connected suburbs).

whats your solution?

Bob24 · 12-10-2018 10:34am

Cyrus wrote: »

whats your solution?

I’m not saying I have a magical solution and it is obviously a very complex issue. But a good start to find solutions would be to start acknowledging there is a problem.

Cyrus · 12-10-2018 10:38am

Bob24 wrote: »

I’m not saying I have a magical solution. But a good start to find solutions would be to start acknowledging there is a problem.

do you have any solution, the situation at the moment is driven by market forces, so i presume you must be advocating some sort of intervention by the state (beyond the CB rules)

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-10-2018 10:50am

Shedite27 wrote: »

Can't find the link but about a year ago I read that 7% of households earn more than €100k

Could have been that.

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-10-2018 10:51am

beaz2018 wrote: »

what does "meh" stand for?

It means run of the mill; average; it'll do but not perfect.

thebsharp · 12-10-2018 10:52am

One of the main solutions is to improve transport connectivity across the Greater Dublin Area, making housing across a much greater catchment desirable and making more areas attractive to businesses i.e. both employees and customers can get from place to place more easily.

There's no votes, and has never been, in providing long term solutions to address this. Politicians all weigh in against such plans and as a society we have to acknowledge our role here. I think we spend close to the least amount on transport infrastructure in the OECD per capita.

To be fair I'm a transport engineer so my perspective is definitely biased.

Cuddlesworth · 12-10-2018 10:52am

ELM327 wrote: »

That's households though.
Not individual earners.

My household is hovering near that mark. And we're not well off, or even near it!
100k for 2 incomes is not lots.

I took part in a CSO survey about 6 or 7 years ago. Our household income was around 210k because 6 young working adults were house sharing. Its not a metric I really trust.

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-10-2018 10:53am

ELM327 wrote: »

That's households though.
Not individual earners.

My household is hovering near that mark. And we're not well off, or even near it!
100k for 2 incomes is not lots.

I think the point I and various others are trying to make (and perhaps you too) is that 60 and 70K+ jobs are not as common as some people think they are.

Affordability of Property and Irish Wages/Salaries

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