What do you believe happens when we die

sallyanne12 · 03-09-2020 12:16am #1

Complete the poll and let us know

Pherekydes · 03-09-2020 12:44am

I'd like to "complete" a Pole. :eek:

bobbyy gee · 03-09-2020 1:17am

Having died and been brought back there's nothing there. You don't know you died until you read medical report it's like you never existed.
You don't have any thoughts. You don't walk towards the light
You don't see dead family members. Seeing someone you know die is scary as they panic and your not able to do anything to help them. All you can do is hold their hand and tell them they are not alone.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2020 4:09am

sallyanne12 wrote: »

Complete the poll and let us know

Customary to provide your own opinion, OP

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2020 4:09am

bobbyy gee wrote: »

Having died and been brought back there's nothing there. You don't know you died until you read medical report it's like you never existed.
You don't have any thoughts. You don't walk towards the light
You don't see dead family members. Seeing someone you know die is scary as they panic and your not able to do anything to help them. All you can do is hold their hand and tell them they are not alone.

:pac::rolleyes:

s1ippy · 03-09-2020 4:31am

I have an idea about mortality which I'm basically certain is correct. I have thought about building a sort of movement around it or writing a thesis on it, but I feel it would be an exercise in futility because the market for religion is over saturated and based on my experience of people, most of the ones who didn't understand it would just get angry. The idea isn't based around worship in the slightest, just a concept around life and death that I feel that I have sussed, because like everyone else I've thought about it for so long. Somebody was bound to figure it out.

I find the theory really revealing when applied to existence and our place in it. Believing this premise to be true doesn't advocate any specific way of life or subsequent beliefs. It's just a scientifically and philosophically grounded perspective on meaning and sentience. It gives me immense solace whenever I think about life within the parameters it indicates.

I've explained these thoughts to friends and family (it's easy in when you're casually conversing... "death is weird" or some such throwaway existential comment. "Do you think so? I think it's just...") and we've pulled the whole notion apart and picked at any dubious aspects.

Death is a fascinating thing to discuss if you're pragmatic and logical instead of sentimental or superstitious; I think anyone comes away from a spirited conversation about it feeling enriched and less threatened by their own fear. Its like the talking cure; you reason things out and they start to make more sense and become a more acceptable thing for your brain to process without trauma or prejudice.

Tl;dr something something jeebus zombie

magicbastarder · 03-09-2020 7:59am

s1ippy wrote: »

a concept around life and death that I feel that I have sussed, because like everyone else I've thought about it for so long.

i think we'd to take a bit more convincing than that!

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 8:09am

s1ippy wrote: »

I have an idea about mortality which I'm basically certain is correct. . . .

There's not much point in telling us this unless you are going to go on and tell su what the idea is - you tease, you!

LessOutragePlz · 03-09-2020 8:15am

How would we know that we alive if we had not once been dead?

We aren't born so we don't die.

Energy can't be destroyed so the energy inside must live on once our body dies.

magicbastarder · 03-09-2020 8:40am

it can be changed from one form to another though.
and i don't think 'consciousness' has an 'energy' in strictly physical terms. it's basically just electrical and chemical energy.

pauldla · 03-09-2020 8:41am

Louis C.K.: Lots of things happen after you die, it's just none of them involve you.

LessOutragePlz · 03-09-2020 8:46am

magicbastarder wrote: »

it can be changed from one form to another though.
and i don't think 'consciousness' has an 'energy' in strictly physical terms. it's basically just electrical and chemical energy.

Yeah but consciousness can't be measured though so to say it's electrical and chemical energy isn't really true tbh as we don't truly know what it is.

magicbastarder · 03-09-2020 8:49am

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

we don't truly know what it is.

how can you claim it can't be destroyed if you don't know what it is?

sallyanne12 · 03-09-2020 9:17am

op here. Have to say I’m very surprised by the results. So many atheists. I guess it’s probably due to posting this in the atheist forum. Perhaps I should have posted it in after hours to get a wider view.
I used to believe in nothing for so long but then I realised it’s naive to think nothing exists after we die. There has to be more to life than just living and dying. I personally believe that life is a sort of test but I don’t believe in any religion. I believe we probably remain in a spiritual world after we die and what area of that world would depend on how good we are

dubrov · 03-09-2020 9:34am

s1ippy wrote: »

I have an idea about mortality which I'm basically certain is correct. I have thought about building a sort of movement around it or writing a thesis on it, but I feel it would be an exercise in futility because the market for religion is over saturated and based on my experience of people, most of the ones who didn't understand it would just get angry. The idea isn't based around worship in the slightest, just a concept around life and death that I feel that I have sussed, because like everyone else I've thought about it for so long. Somebody was bound to figure it out.

I find the theory really revealing when applied to existence and our place in it. Believing this premise to be true doesn't advocate any specific way of life or subsequent beliefs. It's just a scientifically and philosophically grounded perspective on meaning and sentience. It gives me immense solace whenever I think about life within the parameters it indicates.

I've explained these thoughts to friends and family (it's easy in when you're casually conversing... "death is weird" or some such throwaway existential comment. "Do you think so? I think it's just...") and we've pulled the whole notion apart and picked at any dubious aspects.

Death is a fascinating thing to discuss if you're pragmatic and logical instead of sentimental or superstitious; I think anyone comes away from a spirited conversation about it feeling enriched and less threatened by their own fear. Its like the talking cure; you reason things out and they start to make more sense and become a more acceptable thing for your brain to process without trauma or prejudice.

Tl;dr something something jeebus zombie

I too discovered the same idea and thought I had solved it. However, there was one little item that made the whole idea fall apart. I think there is little point in sharing with you as it would be an exercise in futility and likely make you angry.

sallyanne12 · 03-09-2020 9:37am

dubrov wrote: »

I too discovered the same idea and thought I had solved it. However, there was one little item that made the whole idea fall apart. I think there is little point in sharing with you as it would be an exercise in futility and likely make you angry.

Nobody will get angry. Share with us

s1ippy · 03-09-2020 9:37am

Yep, it's a shame as they want the truth but they can't handle the truth.

pawdee · 03-09-2020 10:00am

Here's my take on it.......

1) You die and that's that (most likely) = Grand.
2) You die and go to heaven (most unlikely) = Grand* too.
3) You die and suffer 'physical' and 'mental' torment for all eternity. Not so good.

Only scenario 3 gives any cause for concern. You wouldn't guess it from the simplicity of my hypothesis but I think about this every day.

*unless you're Christopher Hitchens who called heaven "a celestial North Korea".

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 10:02am

pawdee wrote: »

,. . . *unless you're Christopher Hitchens who called heaven "a celestial North Korea".

Which, ironically, leaves him more or less togging out with Kim Jong-Un, who considers North Korea to be an earthly heaven.

looksee · 03-09-2020 10:08am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Which, ironically, leaves him more or less togging out with Kim Jong-Un, who considers North Korea to be an earthly heaven.

Presumably it is, for him. It depends where you are standing.

John Hutton · 03-09-2020 10:12am

Could end up in hell, heaven or perhaps purgatory for a bit .

magicbastarder · 03-09-2020 10:17am

one thing i wonder about; as any animal with a brain has brain activity while alive, and if this brain energy cannot be destroyed, does that mean that any animal which ever had a brain also has a 'soul' which lives on?
and does that mean we all share the same heaven, should there be such a thing? or does each species have its own heaven, e.g. one heaven for blue tits, one for coal tits, one for great tits, etc. etc.?

El_Duderino 09 · 03-09-2020 2:38pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

one thing i wonder about; as any animal with a brain has brain activity while alive, and if this brain energy cannot be destroyed, does that mean that any animal which ever had a brain also has a 'soul' which lives on?
and does that mean we all share the same heaven, should there be such a thing? or does each species have its own heaven, e.g. one heaven for blue tits, one for coal tits, one for great tits, etc. etc.?

One for moobs too?

Yeah the consciousness discussions are total navel gazing. We call out experience 'consciousness' but in truth, all we know is that it's the result of our brains. I suppose my cat has consciousness in so far as her brain allows. Some people might consider cat-consciousness to be trivial. And an alien species could consider our level of consciousness to be trivial.

I don't see any reason to see a distinction between mind and body. We have no evidence of minds existing without a body (brain specifically). So I just presume my consciousness ends when my brain dies. End of story - for me.

Scotty # · 03-09-2020 5:17pm

sallyanne12 wrote: »

...then I realised it’s naive to think nothing exists after we die.

No it isn't. It's perfectly logical.

It's those that believe there is 'something' after death that are naive IMO.

endacl · 03-09-2020 5:24pm

sallyanne12 wrote: »

op here. Have to say I’m very surprised by the results. So many atheists. I guess it’s probably due to posting this in the atheist forum. Perhaps I should have posted it in after hours to get a wider view.
I used to believe in nothing for so long but then I realised it’s naive to think nothing exists after we die. There has to be more to life than just living and dying. I personally believe that life is a sort of test but I don’t believe in any religion. I believe we probably remain in a spiritual world after we die and what area of that world would depend on how good we are

1. It’s also naive to suppose that you continue in some form after you die.
2. Why does there have to be more? Make your meaning while you’re here.
3. Best of luck with that. Hope it works out for you.

Bannasidhe · 04-09-2020 12:47pm

I have absolutely no idea what happens - even though I have technically died but got better as it turned out I was only rebooting and a jump start sorted it out.

I do not 'believe' or 'not believe' anything in particular happens.
I shall wait and see - or not.

I seriously doubt "I" will continue to exist but "I" might.

Hotblack Desiato · 07-09-2020 10:56pm

sallyanne12 wrote: »

op here. Have to say I’m very surprised by the results. So many atheists. I guess it’s probably due to posting this in the atheist forum.

Yeah, I mean who could have predicted that?

antiskeptic · 08-09-2020 8:52am

bobbyy gee wrote: »

Having died and been brought back there's nothing there. You don't know you died until you read medical report it's like you never existed.
You don't have any thoughts. You don't walk towards the light
You don't see dead family members. Seeing someone you know die is scary as they panic and your not able to do anything to help them. All you can do is hold their hand and tell them they are not alone.

Was your body rotting in the grave when you were brought back? My guess is that you lacked some classic signs of life. Which is a different matter.

Bannasidhe · 09-09-2020 10:43am

antiskeptic wrote: »

Was your body rotting in the grave when you were brought back? My guess is that you lacked some classic signs of life. Which is a different matter.

I wasn't aware that "rotting in the grave" was the definition of being dead.
You'd think we'd see a lot more clinically dead but never made it to a grave people wandering around wouldn't you?

Peregrinus · 10-09-2020 1:38am

Well, what is the definition of being dead? When you say that you were "technically dead", what exactly was going on (or not going on) that meant you were technically dead?

KungPao · 10-09-2020 1:45am

I’d love for me to continue in some way, be it me at my best in heaven or even a (nice) ghost.

But yeah, like every other animal on the planet, Death means lights out. Adios.

The only reason we think there could be more is because we are so intelligent, so we invent stupid **** to make us feel better and pretend life goes on in some way after the curtains fall.

robindch · 10-09-2020 1:30pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, what is the definition of being dead? When you say that you were "technically dead", what exactly was going on (or not going on) that meant you were technically dead?

I defer to the excellent, if technically dead, Terry Pratchett and suggest that being dead is the opposite of being alive, and vice versa.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-09-2020 1:35pm

KungPao wrote: »

...

But yeah, like every other animal on the planet, Death means lights out. Adios.

The only reason we think there could be more is because we are so intelligent, so we invent stupid **** to make us feel better and pretend life goes on in some way after the curtains fall.

Isn't it extraordinary that we ever dreamt up the idea of an afterlife? All the evidence says we are born and are alive, then we die and we're not alive anymore. But somehow we imagined a whole story about what happens after that when we have absolutely no evidence for it.

The idea of an afterlife is just a trick our brains play on us.

jimmycrackcorm · 10-09-2020 1:39pm

without any definitive proof, there is nothing to say that anything happens after death. However the incidents of commonality of near-death experiences are unsettling in this regard. They are too numerous to be some sort of conspiracy theory.

Bu then, who is to say that we're not all living in some sort of sophisticated virtual reality. If you could show modern life to someone 500 years ago, they'd think we are actually living in a sort of heavan.

Fr Tod Umptious · 10-09-2020 1:55pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

One for moobs too?

Yeah the consciousness discussions are total navel gazing. We call out experience 'consciousness' but in truth, all we know is that it's the result of our brains. I suppose my cat has consciousness in so far as her brain allows. Some people might consider cat-consciousness to be trivial. And an alien species could consider our level of consciousness to be trivial.

I don't see any reason to see a distinction between mind and body. We have no evidence of minds existing without a body (brain specifically). So I just presume my consciousness ends when my brain dies. End of story - for me.

I'd agree with this

I have a physical presence based on my biological make up.
I have a consciousness based on what my brain tells me, and what my life experience has been thus far.
Once that brain dies that consciousness and all associated memories are gone, unable to return, just like they were never their prior to my conception.

But who is to say I don't develop another consciousness from another brain, attached to another body in the future.

Without any links back to my present self.

I may have lived and died thousands of times over thousands of years, but completely independent of each other, without any reference between each.

magicbastarder · 10-09-2020 2:40pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

without any definitive proof, there is nothing to say that anything happens after death. However the incidents of commonality of near-death experiences are unsettling in this regard. They are too numerous to be some sort of conspiracy theory.

or else just an artefact of brain chemistry involved?

El_Duderino 09 · 10-09-2020 2:45pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

without any definitive proof, there is nothing to say that anything happens after death. However the incidents of commonality of near-death experiences are unsettling in this regard. They are too numerous to be some sort of conspiracy theory.

...

What are near death experiences actually evidence for? When the brain is in the process of dying, people report broadly similar experiences. When the brain kid asleep people report broadly similar experiences and when on magic mushrooms people also experience broadly similar experiences.

None of those things is evidence for the experience being real.

NIMAN · 10-09-2020 2:51pm

Surely if you grow up hearing ND stories about a tunnel of light and seeing your parents etc, then when you are close to death your brain simply recalls what you've heard in your life.

Doesn't make the experience real. But then again, maybe it is.

Bottom line, you can't prove either side right or wrong.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-09-2020 3:24pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Surely if you grow up hearing ND stories about a tunnel of light and seeing your parents etc, then when you are close to death your brain simply recalls what you've heard in your life.

Doesn't make the experience real. But then again, maybe it is.

Bottom line, you can't prove either side right or wrong.

So the obvious conclusion is not to believe it unless or until there's evidence to believe it.

We already know brains can show us things that aren't real so I'd be happy to put it in that category unless there's evidence for something else

Bannasidhe · 10-09-2020 3:33pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, what is the definition of being dead? When you say that you were "technically dead", what exactly was going on (or not going on) that meant you were technically dead?

In my case I define it as were it not for the immediate and repeated application of jump leads - available as I was in an ambulance at the time - I would have within days been "rotting in the grave" i.e. I was technically dead but I got better.

Other people may have different definitions but, in my situation, I tend to go with 'without timely medical intervention life would have remained extinct'.

nihicib2 · 10-09-2020 3:35pm

My best friend died just over two weeks ago, he was an atheist, as am I, he was cremated, as I also want to be. I think when you're gone you're gone, although (and I know its grief) I would love to think he's somewhere, somehow rocking on and at peace. The strangeness of covid times and the absence of a proper wake and funeral robbed many of how we Irish process grief, well those stages of it anyway.

Anyway I'm rambling, like I said my belief is when you die, thats it, the idea that there's something else is there to soothe those who are on that journey and to comfort those who have lost a loved one, But I guess we'll never know one way or another.

ToddDameron · 10-09-2020 3:35pm

Your life repeats over and over for eternity, always the same.

nozzferrahhtoo · 10-09-2020 4:08pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

However the incidents of commonality of near-death experiences are unsettling in this regard. They are too numerous to be some sort of conspiracy theory.

I view it exactly the opposite to you actually. It would be unsettling if there was no commonality but a general disparity in those experiences.

Why? Well...

We like to think about how individual we all are. And in many ways we are. But in reality we are all nearly identical. The machine that is our body works the same way for most of us.

So if you starve a body the same thing tends to happen. If you put a certain drug into a body the same results generally happen. Because we are mostly, though not entirely, the same.

So the fact that people having their brains and conscious awareness perturbed in similar ways around the world when near death (Generally we use the same procedures, drugs, machines to revive people who's heart has stopped for example) come out reporting similar experiences after the fact..... makes entire sense to me. If they were having entirely and completely individual experiences, that would be genuinely weird and would require some explaining.

There is also the Spielberg effect, as I have heard it called.

It is called this because after a certain movie from Spielberg, reports of UFO encounters suddenly started reporting aliens who were small, grey, and had big black eyes. Likely because AFTER THE FACT of having some kind of experience people started reporting it through the culture they knew well.

Similarly people having Near Death Experiences in a predominantly Christian Culture tend to parse their experience through that narrative. So in the USA you get some loving figure in the light. While in India you get people experiencing what one paper on the matter called "a pantheon of Gods with ‘hierarchy’" with a "Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva". I would challange you to find many (actually one would surprise me, but lets set the bar a little high) one devout American Christian, or even American Atheisat, who came back from an NDE confirming a patheon led by Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

Terry Pratchett mentioned on the thread already had a trope he put in many of his books. Characters dying were told they would get the after life they expected to get. Whatever it might be. While a joke, that seems to be exactly true of NDE therefore. People during, or subsequently parsing, NDE seem to get EXACTLY the narrative in their NDE that their culture or beliefs would expect of them. Exception abound of course, but this generally seems to be the norm.

All that said however I think the most important letter in NDE is the N. NEAR death experience. Ergo: The patient did not actually die. Therefore NDE is as much an experience of, or evidence for, an after life as walking up to a plane but then not actually boarding it is an experience of a sun holiday away in Spain. When people verifiably come back with an ADE rather than an NDE we would have something interesting. But alas seemingly the only known cases of that tend to come out of story books written and set in the age of a Bronze aged illiterate and relatively ignorant peasantry of Carpenter Fetishists.

Peregrinus · 11-09-2020 2:09am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

. . . ll that said however I think the most important letter in NDE is the N. NEAR death experience. Ergo: The patient did not actually die. Therefore NDE is as much an experience of, or evidence for, an after life as walking up to a plane but then not actually boarding it is an experience of a sun holiday away in Spain. When people verifiably come back with an ADE rather than an NDE we would have something interesting. But alas seemingly the only known cases of that tend to come out of story books written and set in the age of a Bronze aged illiterate and relatively ignorant peasantry of Carpenter Fetishists.

Leaving aside the unhelpfully pejorative characterisation, the strking thing about that particular account is that it tells us precisely zero about the subject's experience of "being dead". Were there lights, tunnels, angels, a Hindu pantheon, reunion with family members who had already died? He doesn't say and nobody asks him. That's clearly not the point of the story. And later NT writings underline that there is no point in these speculations: "the things that no eye has seen and no ear has heard, things beyond the mind of man. . . etc etc", which is an explicit affirmation of the pre-Christian tradition to the same effect as set out in the OT. Basically, you can't know anything about any afterlife; don't bother to ask. Preoccupation with imagining the details or characteristics of such an existence is a much later development.

And I think Nozz is correct; if there is any kind of afterlife, however likely or unlikely you may think that, we have no reason at all to think that the sensations and perceptions we have in near-death experiences are any kind of pointer to what that afterlife might be, or might be like; they just point to what we have imagined or hoped for.

guitarhappy · 11-09-2020 2:24am

I'm not afraid of dieing, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

A friend in Texas told me if you've been good you go to heaven when you die. But if you've been really good you go to Willie Nelson's house.

Nobody knows what happens when you die. You can make up anything you want. I pray it has something to do with a hot tub and Swedish twins named Olga and Helga.

pappyodaniel · 11-09-2020 2:29am

In some cases you're found by a loved one so try and avoid autoerotic asphyxiation and make sure you've deleted your search history.

Spanish Eyes · 11-09-2020 2:30am

We cease to exist. End of. Religions might think otherwise but it is not that sensible really.

Animals can avail of euthanasia, and are put to sleep.

We are all animals. But we cannot be PTS like our pets sadly

Peregrinus · 11-09-2020 5:36am

guitarhappy wrote: »

I'm not afraid of dieing, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

A friend in Texas told me if you've been good you go to heaven when you die. But if you've been really good you go to Willie Nelson's house.

Nobody knows what happens when you die. You can make up anything you want. I pray it has something to do with a hot tub and Swedish twins named Olga and Helga.

You had better hope also that Olga and Helga are praying for an afterlife involving a hot tub and guitarhappy,

RobAMerc · 11-09-2020 8:04am

we cease to exist. but there is a short lived afterlife ( not for us )

I think the confusion came from someone (possibly Jesus) trying to use metaphors to encourage us to be good people on earth. If you be good you will remain trouble free of mental anguish for what you did wrong and in heaven ( for your lifetime ) and you will remain a happy thought or a comforting voice in the memory of your loved ones ( the afterlife - different but still heaven ).

The church took this simple teaching and built a commercial empire from it through many of the ploys any modern company might ( or maybe how any tyrannous dictator might )

nthclare · 11-09-2020 9:37am

I believe we'll be remembered for our merit's in life, people will miss us hopefully I won't leave behind any resentments or debts.
I love to be buried in the Burren, near a hawthorn tree, and a view of the ocean. So that whomever comes to give their respects or visit my limestone tomb will have a nice view of the country side...I'm going to go all out with a pagan sermony, and a party with friends and family music and entertainment from day until the evening...

Wherever my consciousness will be, who knows as that's not worth discussing here, because you might as well be talking to the wall.

It's interesting to see people who describe themselves as a rotting corpse when they pass, sounds like a metaphor for their lifestyle in general.
Just empty shell's, forever perputatuated in resentment, narcisissim and negativity.

Tunnel vision, dead = I'm rotting away...

Open minded, hopefully I'll leave behind a good legacy and leave no resentments or debts, who knows what will happen.
But hopefully it won't be painful for myself or others.
And there will be a good party afterwards.

Rotting away FFS sounds great

REXER · 11-09-2020 9:47am

nthclare wrote: »

I believe we'll be remembered for our merit's in life, people will miss us hopefully I won't leave behind any resentments or debts.
I love to be buried in the Burren, near a hawthorn tree, and a view of the ocean. So that whomever comes to give their respects or visit my limestone tomb will have a nice view of the country side...I'm going to go all out with a pagan sermony, and a party with friends and family music and entertainment from day until the evening...

Wherever my consciousness will be, who knows as that's not worth discussing here, because you might as well be talking to the wall.

It's interesting to see people who describe themselves as a rotting corpse when they pass, sounds like a metaphor for their lifestyle in general.
Just empty shell's, forever perputatuated in resentment, narcisissim and negativity.

Tunnel vision, dead = I'm rotting away...

Open minded, hopefully I'll leave behind a good legacy and leave no resentments or debts, who knows what will happen.
But hopefully it won't be painful for myself or others.
And there will be a good party afterwards.

Rotting away FFS sounds great

I prefer slowly being recycled back to stardust!

What do you believe happens when we die

What do you believe happens when we die 796 votes

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