Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

14-01-2018 12:40pm #1

It's another one of "those" threads...

This is all over twitter today based on an article that was written about one woman's sexual encounter with the award winning comedian.

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355/amp?__twitter_impression=true

See if you can get past the eye roll inducing comment about being given white wine instead of red to see what you think.

My feeling is that giving verbal queues followed by conflicting enthusiastic actions builds a scenarios that provides way too much ambiguity to warrant destroying someones reputation and that, in fact, this reads like an invasion of privacy of the comedian.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 14-01-2018 12:41pm

If you say so.

Hector Bellend · 14-01-2018 12:46pm

TLDR.

Sounds like she could do with a good ride

14-01-2018 12:51pm

We are not using her real name to protect her identity because she is not a public figure.

So once it's a public figure, we can say what we like and remain anonymous, right...

Crea · 14-01-2018 12:56pm

Bad sex is not sexual assault.

alchemist33 · 14-01-2018 1:10pm

It's pretty shocking they think they can publish so.lmething like that in the current in the current climate, where many people will read the headline and a paragraph assume he sexually assaulted her, when he clearly didn't. Her inability to say no, or even leave (never mind being so uncomfortable that she let him perform oral sex on her, and she on him) is the issue here, not his inability to mindread.

evolving_doors · 14-01-2018 1:15pm

In one of his episodes of 'M.o.N' himself and a female colleague apprehend and do a citizens arrest on a guy masturbating on a subway (they'd seen him do it before). Sound familiar?

Also he had a brief storyline on a colleague he wasabout to do a big tv deal with but was outed for sexual harassment.

I'd say he's aware of the issues.

suicide_circus · 14-01-2018 1:47pm

The natural sexuality of the straight male is becoming a problem.

pjohnson · 14-01-2018 1:49pm

Tbh when she started taking pictures of the food during the date Azis should have said "Fcuk this" and left her.

JMNolan · 14-01-2018 1:51pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

The natural sexuality of the straight male is becoming a problem.

I predict the accusations will become so numerous and ludicrous that none of them will be taken seriously, regardless of their seriousness.

14-01-2018 1:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's another one of "those" threads...

This is all over twitter today based on an article that was written about one woman's sexual encounter with the award winning comedian.

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355/amp?__twitter_impression=true

See if you can get past the eye roll inducing comment about being given white wine instead of red to see what you think.

My feeling is that giving verbal queues followed by conflicting enthusiastic actions builds a scenarios that provides way too much ambiguity to warrant destroying someones reputation and that, in fact, this reads like an invasion of privacy of the comedian.

She's entitled to shout it from the rooftops of she wants. It's not "his" private moment. For all that, the accusation isn't too bad, she doesn't seem to be crying rape or sexual assault. It's kinda his tough luck if a woman kisses and tells.

TerrorFirmer · 14-01-2018 2:08pm

Doesn't paint him in a great light at all, but I certainly wouldn't class it as sexual assault. She had the power to leave but repeatedly chose to remain by her own admission. Doesn't mean that his behavior - if it was as portrayed in the piece (and it is a big if) - is OK, but she made choices too.

TerrorFirmer · 14-01-2018 2:09pm

That twit Louise O' Neill at it again on Twitter. Speaking for the 'hive mind'.

Besides showing zero empathy, asking why she didn’t ‘just leave’ demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about trauma and how women are socially conditioned to be polite and to prioritise men’s feelings above their own

AllGunsBlazing · 14-01-2018 2:19pm

If he plays the race card that could be enough to nullify her victim card.

Yeah, score draw imo.

Silentcorner · 14-01-2018 2:21pm

If your date (on a first date remember) ends up in a cab in tears at the end of the night something has gone badly wrong....

If your sister arrived home in that state what way would you react?

I don't know if this guy could be convicted of anything, that doesn't really matter...

He clearly ignored a lot of signals and persisted in physically invasive behaviour...what kind of a man does that?

If in the early stages of dating you lack the self awareness of how your behaviour (particularly your physical behaviour) is impacting on your new partner then you really are a threat....

The fact that he presents himself as a Pro Feminist / Nice guy type of man only highlights the dangers that women are exposed to, because a woman goes back to your apartment does not constitute consent....he is a wolf in sheep's clothing...

No doubt people will focus on her behaviour and inability to walk out....but this is not his first time with a woman...he is 34 years of age, frankly he has no excuse....

That is assuming the account is truthful...

andekwarhola · 14-01-2018 2:22pm

222233 wrote: »

So once it's a public figure, we can say what we like and remain anonymous, right...

And also disclose the street on which he lives because he's a celebrity in a ghoulish internet kangaroo court.

fullstop · 14-01-2018 2:25pm

If true, he acted like a complete dick and needs to have a good look at himself and his behaviour, but I can't understand how you can just have anonymity when coming forward with an accusation like this while he's named for the world to see.

lawred2 · 14-01-2018 2:30pm

Due process is so twentieth century

Grayson · 14-01-2018 2:36pm

fullstop wrote: »

If true, he acted like a complete dick and needs to have a good look at himself and his behaviour, but I can't understand how you can just have anonymity when coming forward with an accusation like this while he's named for the world to see.

Yep, he sounds like a bit of an asshole if the story is true. However he didn't break the law.

One thing that struck me about the story is that it's the kind of story that would have been on the front page of the news of the world 10 years ago. Especially if it was about an English footballer. And the woman would have been paid a lot for the story.
I think the main difference is how it's reported here.

Outlaw Pete · 14-01-2018 2:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

...she doesn't seem to be crying rape or sexual assault.

Eh, that's precisely what she's calling it:

“It took a really long time for me to validate this as sexual assault”

B.A._Baracus · 14-01-2018 2:54pm

This sh*t has gone too far.
Was always a risk of people posting crap online just to jump on the band wagon. Happened now.

You could look at a women now and she'd type #metoo on twitter ffs.

Ray Palmer · 14-01-2018 3:07pm

I have been involved in disputes in work where I had to talk to people to get their story of events. You would be amazed at how 3 people involved in a dispute could recount events that sound so radically different. Human memory is so unreliable by its very nature that it is very difficult to trust when you hear how different people perceived evens.
He has made no statement yet we are to believe her events after she recounted it many times to friends before typing out details to be publicly shared. That would have caused her telling to be constantly reinforced and altered.
Not saying she is lying but it doesn't mean she is telling actual events.
People have made comments on general allegations that there is no reason for these women to lie. This misses some well known details of memory, social pressure and desires for inclusion. Look and 9/11 and you had people in Ireland claiming the most convoluted connections to the attack. From "I was on those towers once" to my cousins girlfriend worked there for a while, over time it becomes my cousin worked in the building and I visited him there once and he was luckily out sick on that day. There have been people who claimed they were there on day who were proven to not have been there.
Knowing this how do people assume everyone is giving accurate accounts. If you don't know this or never heard of anything similar my question is how?

Ficheall · 14-01-2018 3:12pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I have been involved in disputes in work where I had to talk to people to get their story of events. You would be amazed at how 3 people involved in a dispute could recount events that sound so radically different. Human memory is so unreliable by its very nature that it is very difficult to trust when you hear how different people perceived evens.
He has made no statement yet we are to believe her events after she recounted it many times to friends before typing out details to be publicly shared. That would have caused her telling to be constantly reinforced and altered.
Not saying she is lying but it doesn't mean she is telling actual events.
People have made comments on general allegations that there is no reason for these women to lie. This misses some well known details of memory, social pressure and desires for inclusion. Look and 9/11 and you had people in Ireland claiming the most convoluted connections to the attack. From "I was on those towers once" to my cousins girlfriend worked there for a while, over time it becomes my cousin worked in the building and I visited him there once and he was luckily out sick on that day. There have been people who claimed they were there on day who were proven to not have been there.
Knowing this how do people assume everyone is giving accurate accounts. If you don't know this or never heard of anything similar my question is how?

Even taking her account of events as gospel, though, it seems Aziz' greatest mistake was not being a mindreader. Or going on a date with your one in the first place.

B.A._Baracus · 14-01-2018 3:19pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I have been involved in disputes in work where I had to talk to people to get their story of events. You would be amazed at how 3 people involved in a dispute could recount events that sound so radically different. Human memory is so unreliable by its very nature that it is very difficult to trust when you hear how different people perceived evens.

That's not an issue with human memory. That's people twisting events to come as in the right.

bnt · 14-01-2018 3:27pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'd say he's aware of the issues.

Aware? A couple of years ago, Ansari co-wrote a book called Modern Romance: An Investigation. I read it last month and I found it both funny and helpful, by which I mean that it confirmed my suspicions that online dating is a dumpster fire that I'm better off avoiding altogether. I'd say that both parties in this "screw-up" learned from the experience.

biko · 14-01-2018 3:31pm

Metoo

14-01-2018 3:32pm

JMNolan wrote: »

I predict the accusations will become so numerous and ludicrous that none of them will be taken seriously, regardless of their seriousness.

Doubtful. Society will just take a different angle in that those who don't take it seriously, will be dismissing the experiences of the female, because, well, they're female.

These kinds of reports/accusations are going to become a lot more common, and they will be acted on.

Personally, I expect to see a rise in relationships with very strongly worded contract agreements, and a decline of casual sexual encounters. I wonder will people start videoing their sexual encounters just to show there's no dodginess involved? (apart from their other reasons for recording the experience, that is)

anewme · 14-01-2018 3:41pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wonder will people start videoing their sexual encounters just to show there's no dodginess involved?

Read that quickly on my phone as .......just to show there's no DOGINESS involved.

Ooopps

Ray Palmer · 14-01-2018 4:05pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

That's not an issue with human memory. That's people twisting events to come as in the right.

That is your assumption which you are entitled to it but I am talking about 3 people with 2 people making claims against each other. One person has nothing to gain by siding one way or the other and the other 2 people not agreeing with that account either. You can go look it up, human memory is dismal. You remember what you remembered last not the original event.

14-01-2018 4:07pm

anewme wrote: »

Read that quickly on my phone as .......just to show there's no DOGINESS involved.

Ooopps

Ficheall · 14-01-2018 4:14pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

He clearly ignored a lot of signals

Which were...?

Skyfarm · 14-01-2018 4:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

She's entitled to shout it from the rooftops of she wants. It's not "his" private moment. For all that, the accusation isn't too bad, she doesn't seem to be crying rape or sexual assault. It's kinda his tough luck if a woman kisses and tells.

I really hope that the 74 in your name doesn't relate to your year of birth, how and why do you think that the accusation isn't too bad?

so its ok to destroy a person's life without any regard to the effects it has on people, you do realise that forever more this is out there?

tough luck? christ man wake up

suicide_circus · 14-01-2018 4:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally, I expect to see a rise in relationships with very strongly worded contract agreements, and a decline of casual sexual encounters. I wonder will people start videoing their sexual encounters just to show there's no dodginess involved? (apart from their other reasons for recording the experience, that is)

Its amazing how cyclical history and socities are isn't it? To paraphrase David Starkey "it seems to me that we are producing a tyrannous new morality that is every bit as oppressive as the old."

14-01-2018 4:39pm

Skyfarm wrote: »

I really hope that the 74 in your name doesn't relate to your year of birth, how and why do you think that the accusation isn't too bad?

so its ok to destroy a person's life without any regard to the effects it has on people, you do realise that forever more this is out there?

tough luck? christ man wake up

If it's accurate, then she has every right to say it. Do you think she should be censored or gagged?

Incidentally, he is equally entitled to respond, to deny, clarify aspects etc.

14-01-2018 4:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If it's accurate, then she has every right to say it. Do you think she should be censored or gagged?

Incidentally, he is equally entitled to respond, to deny, clarify aspects etc.

By all means she has every right to say it, but wheres her name? Should he not have the same right to anonymity as her until legal decisions re claims are made?

Silentcorner · 14-01-2018 4:44pm

Ficheall wrote: »

Which were...?

Well I don't know about you, but when they began kissing for the first time, when he suggesting finding a condom, to which she "allegedly" responded with "Whoa, lets relax for a second, let's chill" .... would have been the first signal of discomfort...it also is an very odd thing to suggest after a first kiss!

"He moved my hand to his d@@k at least 5-7 times"....the fact she didn't grab it the first time would be another signal...

"It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a ****ing game.”....another signal...

"Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”...another signal....

“I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored.”....another signal...

I really shouldn't have to go on...this sounds like a prolonged sexual assault...

Its really sad that we can't all agree that his behaviour was outrageous...

14-01-2018 4:48pm

222233 wrote: »

By all means she has every right to say it, but wheres her name? Should he not have the same right to anonymity as her until legal decisions re claims are made?

But it's her article, she has the right to edit the detail as she sees fit including withholding her name.

In his response, Ansari is entitled to give that detail.

14-01-2018 5:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But it's her article, she has the right to edit the detail as she sees fit including withholding her name.

In his response, Ansari is entitled to give that detail.

I don't believe that any names should be published in these cases, especially online until such time as the matter has been fully investigated and tried in an actual court, what's the purpose? The story could still be shared using other information eg. the person's career.

Silentcorner · 14-01-2018 5:15pm

222233 wrote: »

I don't believe that any names should be published in these cases, especially online until such time as the matter has been fully investigated and tried in an actual court, what's the purpose? The story could still be shared using other information eg. the person's career.

This is where the difficulty is...I'd imagine it would be extremely difficult to secure a conviction in this case...there would be no physical evidence...its one persons word against another (with a detailed examination of the content of those flirty texts and sadly her past)...

We could all argue her right to anonymously accuse a celebrity of sexual assault online, that is a different argument...

All we can do is take the account at face value until Ansari responds, with his account or legal proceedings...

If we take the account at face value what we have read is an account of a prolonged sexual assault....surely we can all agree on that?

Oranage2 · 14-01-2018 5:24pm

Woman sounds cray cray.

-Flirt all week via messages.

-Goes on a date and talks throughout it.

-Complains about the wine, the complains she didn't finish her glass.

-Goes back to his apartment

-kisses him and sucks him off, unhappily though (unbeknownst to the guy)

What's a guy to do. I only assume filming every encounter will be the future, women cannot be trusted not to cry wolf and men have it all to lose.

Oranage2 · 14-01-2018 5:24pm

Triple post

Oranage2 · 14-01-2018 5:25pm

Triple post

14-01-2018 5:31pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

What's a guy to do. I only assume filming every encounter will be the future, women cannot be trusted not to cry wolf and men have it all to lose.

Gonna need her consent to film anything... and when that consent is withdrawn because it's inconvenient for her?

This whole area of consent, sexual encounters, etc needs to be investigated with definite guidelines as to what is legally allowed for your own protection (for all parties). At the moment, it's entirely too vague. Sure, the law lays out what is right/wrong, but too much is dependent on the perception of the Judge, Police etc.

Silentcorner · 14-01-2018 5:45pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

Woman sounds cray cray.

-Flirt all week via messages.

-Goes on a date and talks throughout it.

-Complains about the wine, the complains she didn't finish her glass.

-Goes back to his apartment

-kisses him and sucks him off, unhappily though (unbeknownst to the guy)

What's a guy to do. I only assume filming every encounter will be the future, women cannot be trusted not to cry wolf and men have it all to lose.

I think it is an honest account of a prolonged sexual assault...

She doesn't hide the fact there were flirty text messages all week...we have no idea what the content and tone of these message were...this may be his get out of jail card if the tone is explicit, if it is banter its not looking good for him...

She mentions the white wine issue because it would be normal to offer wine and then ask red or white? Or at least ask "is white ok?"...this was mentioned to illustrate that she had no control or choice for that matter...

She spoke mostly because he only had one thing on his mind...

The fact they left wine in the glass and bottle illustrates the hurried nature of the date...this is highly unusual on a first date to literally race the girl back to his apartment....

She went back to his apartment, which is where it seems she completely lost control of events...

I feel sorry for the woman, she was young, possibly starstruck and had difficulty computing what was happening to her....

14-01-2018 6:01pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

She went back to his apartment, which is where it seems she completely lost control of events...

That's rubbish. She had control over the situation the whole way throughout. She just didn't exercise the element of control which meant her ending things and leaving.

I feel sorry for the woman, she was young, possibly starstruck and had difficulty computing what was happening to her....

She entered into an adult encounter. She went out with him, drank with him, accepted his invitation to his home and had sex with him.

Like seriously... Everyone knows that you don't go back to someone's home on a first date, unless you expect something sexual related. Add to this, that she chose to go out with a "celeb".

Now... the story she tells portrays him as an absolute dick. I wouldn't want anyone I know to be with him based on her account. But she could have left at any time. She could have refused his advances outright rather than mumbling or giving "subtle" signs.

And honestly... Have your first date, your second, and third date... and then maybe go home with a guy after you know him a bit. Going to his home on the first date and not expecting anything to happen? Really? It's not the 1950s.

Oranage2 · 14-01-2018 6:03pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think it is an honest account of a prolonged sexual assault...

She doesn't hide the fact there were flirty text messages all week...we have no idea what the content and tone of these message were...this may be his get out of jail card if the tone is explicit, if it is banter its not looking good for him...

She mentions the white wine issue because it would be normal to offer wine and then ask red or white? Or at least ask "is white ok?"...this was mentioned to illustrate that she had no control or choice for that matter...

She spoke mostly because he only had one thing on his mind...

The fact they left wine in the glass and bottle illustrates the hurried nature of the date...this is highly unusual on a first date to literally race the girl back to his apartment....

She went back to his apartment, which is where it seems she completely lost control of events...

I feel sorry for the woman, she was young, possibly starstruck and had difficulty computing what was happening to her....

I didn't read read it all for my first reply I didn't know there was more after the counter top, she wasn't having a good time but she did suck him off and kissed him back, naive and silly young woman, though she doesn't deserve to feel like that. Even though the guy was overly 'forward' it's hard to say he did much wrong, Learning experience for both of them.

Barncom · 14-01-2018 6:05pm

She isn't mature enough to be having relationships if she doesn't have the ability to decline sexual advances.

neonsofa · 14-01-2018 6:07pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

She mentions the white wine issue because it would be normal to offer wine and then ask red or white? Or at least ask "is white ok?"...this was mentioned to illustrate that she had no control or choice for that matter...

.

I don't drink red wine, if someone offers me red or hands me red, I ask have you any white or I say no thanks I don't drink red. Cause I'm an adult and I have control and choice over the type of wine I consume

Silentcorner · 14-01-2018 6:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That's rubbish. She had control over the situation the whole way throughout. She just didn't exercise the element of control which meant her ending things and leaving.

She entered into an adult encounter. She went out with him, drank with him, accepted his invitation to his home and had sex with him.

Like seriously... Everyone knows that you don't go back to someone's home on a first date, unless you expect something sexual related. Add to this, that she chose to go out with a "celeb".

Now... the story she tells portrays him as an absolute dick. I wouldn't want anyone I know to be with him based on her account. But she could have left at any time. She could have refused his advances outright rather than mumbling or giving "subtle" signs.

And honestly... Have your first date, your second, and third date... and then maybe go home with a guy after you know him a bit. Going to his home on the first date and not expecting anything to happen? Really? It's not the 1950s.

That's actually frightening....

Most women are raped by people known to them...by your logic, they all just failed to exercise their right to control the situation....

Something sexual related might be kissing to one person, it could be full on sex to someone else, it is why we need the self awareness to know the difference...

There was nothing subtle about her messages, unless you expect women to list the sexual activities they are comfortable with when they enter a mans apartment then it is up to BOTH parties to keep a watch on what your partner is comfortable with...

14-01-2018 6:25pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

Most women are raped by people known to them...by your logic, they all just failed to exercise their right to control the situation....

That's actually frightening....

It's frightening that you feel to make the connection between this and that.

And no... That's your logic. I was speaking about a date and sexual encounter where no force was involved, and she accepted his advances.

Taking things out of context, perhaps?

Something sexual related my be kissing to one person, it could be full on sex to someone else, it is why we need the self awareness to know the difference...

Sexually related? We can only really go by the accepted perception of what sex entails... (perhaps the traditional viewpoint?) otherwise we have to accept that any contact physical or otherwise could be considered sexual by some.

There was nothing subtle about her messages,

"“Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”"

Or she could have told him no, and that she wasn't interested in sex with him.

unless you expect women to list the sexual activities they are comfortable with when they enter a mans apartment then it is up to BOTH parties to keep a watch on what your partner is comfortable with...

True enough... So.. she should have told him she wasn't interested, and left when he failed to stop? Since he was a dick, and wasn't worthy of her involvement?

Silentcorner · 14-01-2018 6:30pm

neonsofa wrote: »

I don't drink red wine, if someone offers me red or hands me red, I ask have you any white or I say no thanks I don't drink red. Cause I'm an adult and I have control and choice over the type of wine I consume

Jesus I didn't think I'd have to explain this one...

The wine or its colour isn't the point, the point was she wasn't given any choice...he was making incorrect assumptions from the start...he didn't give a f@@k what kind of wine she liked or even if she liked wine at all...first dates are highly nuanced...anybody with emotional intelligence would recognise that...

The fact that she didn't bother to ask for red, or reject the white doesn't matter...

She was a 23 year old woman in the apartment of a 34 year old World renowned comedian...if you can't relate to what that must of been like for her it might explain why you can't empathise with her...

Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

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