Feeling like AGS are giving me the run around.

Grizzly 45 · 07-12-2019 1:56pm

ZiabR wrote: »

Ah yes, ok. Renewals are new applications per say so yes I can see why the Super is needed to sign off on them again. I think we do have one of the strictest or restrictive licencing systems in the EU? I am all for firearm safety, I do like and understand why certain checks need to be done etc, its just the waiting times that I cant get my head around.

It would be a great help if [1] we liscense the man and not the gun [2] overhaul the PULSE system to deal with this properly,or [3] Go to an utterly civillian based liscense system,with aGS only performing backround checks and final Yea/nay by the respective ranks after reading your report from your local FO. and [4] Do away with multiple credit card bits of paper,and go to one Smart card system that records all your pertint firearms info,and allows over the counter transactions,and like for like trades...But this IS Ireland...:rolleyes:

Gorgeousgeorge · 07-12-2019 3:50pm

Bagpipe wrote: »

I presume the usual questions of why in the heck do you require such a weapon of mass destruction and why cant an alternate less dangerous looking firearm be chosen, would apply?

Yeah pretty much but in my case it was a why cant you just stick with the clay pigeons and shotgun will that not do ya.

Bagpipe · 08-12-2019 11:30am

solarwinds wrote: »

I agree with the above, I was asked in before for a quick "informal" chat a few years ago with a different Super. So off I trot and find myself sitting in a room with the Super and 2 Sergeants, an hour later we were done. So yes I would either record it or bring someone.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It would be a great help if [1] we liscense the man and not the gun [2] overhaul the PULSE system to deal with this properly,or [3] Go to an utterly civillian based liscense system,with aGS only performing backround checks and final Yea/nay by the respective ranks after reading your report from your local FO. and [4] Do away with multiple credit card bits of paper,and go to one Smart card system that records all your pertint firearms info,and allows over the counter transactions,and like for like trades...But this IS Ireland...:rolleyes:

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

Yeah pretty much but in my case it was a why cant you just stick with the clay pigeons and shotgun will that not do ya.

I'll do my best to record it and maybe post it here if you guys would be interested?

Gorgeousgeorge · 08-12-2019 2:21pm

Bagpipe wrote: »

I'll do my best to record it and maybe post it here if you guys would be interested?

Yeah cool but I dont know about the legality of that or if they realise it might not be impressed

Grizzly 45 · 08-12-2019 2:21pm

I wouldn't record it per se,without everyones permission presenr.Which they wont give anyway.They might say something they will regret later,and you doing it covertly breaks all sorts of privacy and dpa rules.
Best thing is a 3rd party witness,or you need to transcribe as much as possible of the conversation.
But names ,rank and who present at the meeting.
Dont rise to insults ,or be cowed by intimidatory tactics either.They want a response put of you ,if it happens,so they can report you as being unfit to liscense.Be pofessional ,be polite,and have in your own mind for the letter you will send to the GO to complain all present if their conduct is less than becoming of superior officers of the law.

Cass · 08-12-2019 3:03pm

Bagpipe wrote: »

I'll do my best to record it and maybe post it here if you guys would be interested?

I won't pretend to understand all the data protection or GDPR related laws, but i know enough to say that cannot happen.

Record it if you want, but it cannot be "broadcast" here. You can, afaik, give a first person account, leaving out names, etc. (stick to rank), and how you got on, but any recordings or communication must have the person(s) involved permission to not only record but also to publicise.

The pigeon man · 08-12-2019 5:37pm

Whilst I would think that it would be unwise to publish such a recording on boards, it is legal in Ireland to make an audio recording of someone provided one person in the conversation has consented to it. That can be yourself of course.

Consent from all parties in the conversation is not required.

You could record the meeting covertly if you do so wish but I would only be keeping this for yourself or your legal council.

Cass · 08-12-2019 6:40pm

Just checked up on the law and i think i have it.

You can record someone without their knowledge so long as you are a party to the conversation. If you are a third party that is NOT involved then it's illegal (without a warrant, etc. ala An Gardaí).

So as said above it's legal to do so, but i must stress it cannot be broadcast here [Boards.ie] but a first hand/person account can be if you want to update the thread on your progress. However in keeping with the "accusations against named individuals" rule, keep it to rank.

I'm telling ya, if its this hard to just tell each other a few stories or events imagine the harm if the proposed "hate speech" laws they want to bring in would cause.

onetimecypher · 08-12-2019 8:58pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I wouldn't record it per se,without everyones permission presenr.Which they wont give anyway.They might say something they will regret later,and you doing it covertly breaks all sorts of privacy and dpa rules.
Best thing is a 3rd party witness,or you need to transcribe as much as possible of the conversation.
But names ,rank and who present at the meeting.
Dont rise to insults ,or be cowed by intimidatory tactics either.They want a response put of you ,if it happens,so they can report you as being unfit to liscense.Be pofessional ,be polite,and have in your own mind for the letter you will send to the GO to complain all present if their conduct is less than becoming of superior officers of the law.

You can also request a "Subject Access Data Request" of the conversation under Data Protection, which should be a transcript of your conversation.

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/data-protection-foi-police-certificates/an-garda-siochana-f20-october-2019-.pdf

Asus1 · 08-12-2019 9:23pm

I do a bit of maintenance work in a few stations around kildare and meath every few month's and most of the men and women i meet in the stations are no worse or better than anyone else i do work for.I read whats written here and it just seems a bit alien reading about superintendents being power crazy freaks who are so untrustworthy that we should record our conversations with.Im not denying anybody's experiences with them it just makes me sad that its gotten to this stage.

The pigeon man · 08-12-2019 9:32pm

Asus1 wrote: »

I do a bit of maintenance work in a few stations around kildare and meath every few month's and most of the men and women i meet in the stations are no worse or better than anyone else i do work for.I read whats written here and it just seems a bit alien reading about superintendents being power crazy freaks who are so untrustworthy that we should record our conversations with.Im not denying anybody's experiences with them it just makes me sad that its gotten to this stage.

It's sad but have a read of the story of Morris McCabe. Had he not recorded his conversation with a particular Garda his reputation would never have been redeemed.

It's important to record because the word of an experienced, well decorated Garda superintendent will always be held more credible than your own if it goes to court.

Asus1 · 08-12-2019 9:47pm

The pigeon man wrote: »

It's sad but have a read of the story of Morris McCabe. Had he not recorded his conversation with a particular Garda his reputation would never have been redeemed.

It's important to record because the word of an experienced, well decorated Garda superintendent will always be held more credible than your own if it goes to court.

Yes that whole affair was absolutely amazing in its own horrible way,how no people served serious time for trying to frame the man is disgusting.Its just mad that the simple act of applying for a licence or renewal has people dreading the thought of talking to the guards,it shouldn't have gotten to this stage.

Cass · 08-12-2019 10:25pm

Asus1 wrote: »

.Its just mad that the simple act of applying for a licence or renewal has people dreading the thought of talking to the guards,it shouldn't have gotten to this stage.

That is the crux of the matter.

It was "always" at this stage however the thing i see now is people are better educated since the new Act in 2009. Meaning they are not so easily bluffed with bulls**t and fake/made up laws.

AGS do not see the need for people to own guns. I have been told on many, many occasions that if they had their way [Superintendent) i wouldn't own a catapult. How do you expect to be treated fairly, or more accurately, according to the law when this is the attitude. Its akin to be being arrested, thrown into prison, and then having to prove you are innocent to get out. You are starting on the back foot.

This creates the sense of "dread" you describe which immediately, and understandably, leads to conflict. We are viewed as undesirables, and if i were forced to use a more severe term, the enemy. How else can you (the general you) explain refusals without legal grounds, punishment for the criminal activity of others, and complete lack of trust from those that govern us?

If you punish a section of society for the criminal actions of others you are saying that our freedoms rely on their behaviour and not our own.

Asus1 · 08-12-2019 11:00pm

Cass wrote: »

That is the crux of the matter.

It was "always" at this stage however the thing i see now is people are better educated since the new Act in 2009. Meaning they are not so easily bluffed with bulls**t and fake/made up laws.

AGS do not see the need for people to own guns. I have been told on many, many occasions that if they had their way [Superintendent) i wouldn't own a catapult. How do you expect to be treated fairly, or more accurately, according to the law when this is the attitude. Its akin to be being arrested, thrown into prison, and then having to prove you are innocent to get out. You are starting on the back foot.

This creates the sense of "dread" you describe which immediately, and understandably, leads to conflict. We are viewed as undesirables, and if i were forced to use a more severe term, the enemy. How else can you (the general you) explain refusals without legal grounds, punishment for the criminal activity of others, and complete lack of trust from those that govern us?

If you punish a section of society for the criminal actions of others you are saying that our freedoms rely on their behaviour and not our own.

As im only a gun owner × 2 the last 5 years i haven't as of yet had to deal with any bad experiences which people have been talked about in this thread and many other threads on here,and as such i feel very lucky.Reading other peoples experiences with gaurds in a position of power over firearm policy it is pointing towards a general restriction on owning any at all.

ZiabR · 09-12-2019 10:41am

Asus1 wrote: »

I do a bit of maintenance work in a few stations around kildare and meath every few month's and most of the men and women i meet in the stations are no worse or better than anyone else i do work for.I read whats written here and it just seems a bit alien reading about superintendents being power crazy freaks who are so untrustworthy that we should record our conversations with.Im not denying anybody's experiences with them it just makes me sad that its gotten to this stage.

As previously mentioned in above posts, 95% of Garda are very approachable and for the most part will help you. There are always bad eggs, but the same can be said for ANY profession.

The frustration when it comes to firearms licencing is not so much with the Garda, it is with the process as a whole. It should not be taking some stations 2-3 weeks and other stations 3-4 months.

I have never had an issue with the procedures around firearms licencing, the background checks etc. They are a good thing, but it all boils down to wait times and the fact that we get fobbed off when we request updates.

The process needs an overhaul both to help the applicants and the Gards.

Cass · 09-12-2019 12:15pm

ZiabR wrote: »

The process needs an overhaul both to help the applicants and the Gards.

I have to wonder how much is the process and how much is the Garda doing the job.

In the last ten years i've never waited more than 3 weeks for a new application, substitution, or renewal. Since all the previous FOs (and there were four of them in that ten year period) have retired the latest one has extended that process to a minimum of 3 months for a sub, renewal or new application with times up to 5 months.

The system hasn't changed so that only leaves the FO.

ZiabR · 09-12-2019 12:48pm

Cass wrote: »

I have to wonder how much is the process and how much is the Garda doing the job.

In the last ten years i've never waited more than 3 weeks for a new application, substitution, or renewal. Since all the previous FOs (and there were four of them in that ten year period) have retired the latest one has extended that process to a minimum of 3 months for a sub, renewal or new application with times up to 5 months.

The system hasn't changed so that only leaves the FO.

Interesting. I presume you are linked to the same station for the past 10 years? No change of address etc? From what I understand, the change to civilian staff has increased wait times for all applications but I really wonder are they just being used as a scap goat. I live in Leinster myself and got my first licence before the change to civilian staff. The application took about 5-6 weeks.

Fast forward to today and I am into week three of a substitution application. Very annoying because I have recently renewed my club membership, insurance and I had entered into a few club competitions which I am now unable to shoot in.

I am resigned to the fact that I wont get my licence back until the new year and likely towards the end of Jan which would see my substitution taking longer than my new application did.

How much of this is down to the gards and how much down to the process? I would LOVE to know.

EDIT - See the below which is taken from the Garda website. Scroll to Annex E and you will see that Subs should take 14 days and in bold letters it says that superintendents will attempt to have them completed quickly. In my case, I know my local garda personally, so they signed and stamped my sub the day I dropped it in and they handed it into the Super for me. So my wait times are directly linked to either the Super or the Civilian staff.

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/firearms-licensing/commissioner-s-guidelines-2018.pdf

Grizzly 45 · 09-12-2019 4:33pm

Cass wrote: »

That is the crux of the matter.

It was "always" at this stage however the thing i see now is people are better educated since the new Act in 2009. Meaning they are not so easily bluffed with bulls**t and fake/made up laws.

AGS do not see the need for people to own guns. I have been told on many, many occasions that if they had their way [Superintendent) i wouldn't own a catapult. How do you expect to be treated fairly, or more accurately, according to the law when this is the attitude. Its akin to be being arrested, thrown into prison, and then having to prove you are innocent to get out. You are starting on the back foot.

This creates the sense of "dread" you describe which immediately, and understandably, leads to conflict. We are viewed as undesirables, and if i were forced to use a more severe term, the enemy. How else can you (the general you) explain refusals without legal grounds, punishment for the criminal activity of others, and complete lack of trust from those that govern us?

If you punish a section of society for the criminal actions of others you are saying that our freedoms rely on their behaviour and not our own.

Thank the EU and UN with their policies of as few firearms as possible in civillian hands.Which I had confirmed today in a roundabout way in the DOJ. All you need is zealots in authority to impliment this.

ZiabR · 09-12-2019 4:47pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thank the EU and UN with their policies of as few firearms as possible in civillian hands.Which I had confirmed today in a roundabout way in the DOJ. All you need is zealots in authority to impliment this.

It does seem though that it completely depends on where you are from and what station you are linked to, that determines how you will be treated as an applicant. Some supers and garda dont try to make it more complicated than it is, and will just sign off on applications provided everything is in order.

Then there are to other supers and stations that seem to have a personal vendetta against applicants, and make it as hard as possible for people to get their licence.

That is where the majority of the frustration comes from. There is NO need for something as straight forward as a Sub or a Renewal to take 4-12 weeks. You already exist in pulse and are already the licenced owner of said firearm. I do think that they need to differentiate between New, Subs and Renewals.

ZiabR · 10-12-2019 5:12pm

madmac187 wrote: »

Very sceptical I rang Phoenix Park, application is only on system since October.

Excuse what might be a stupid question, but how do you mean you phoned the Phoenix Park? Do all New applications, Subs and Renewals go through this station? Am I missing something here?

Can you not collect your Sub or Renewal etc from the station you are linked to? Are the licences only printed in a central office?

Gorgeousgeorge · 10-12-2019 5:15pm

ZiabR wrote: »

Excuse what might be a stupid question, but how do you mean you phoned the Phoenix Park? Do all New applications, Subs and Renewals go through this station? Am I missing something here?

Can you not collect your Sub or Renewal etc from the station you are linked to? Are the licences only printed in a central office?

garda hq

tudderone · 10-12-2019 5:16pm

Is the garda ombudsman any use, or is he only window dressing ?

ZiabR · 10-12-2019 5:31pm

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

garda hq

Ah yes I know its the Garda HQ, but do all applications have to go through the HQ? I was under the impression that the details are entered into pulse in the local station and then the grant letter is issued. An Post handle the payments etc.

I know for example that there are 3 x Civilian staff in my local station that input all of the data into Pulse.

Cass · 10-12-2019 9:05pm

ZiabR wrote: »

Do all New applications, Subs and Renewals go through this station?

No.

Am I missing something here?

Probably the FPU (Firearms Policy Unit)

Can you not collect your Sub or Renewal etc from the station you are linked to?

All receipts, grants and licenses are posted out, not for collection.

Are the licences only printed in a central office?

I believe so, yes. Most grants and licenses have a Blackrock address on the envelope.

ZiabR wrote: »

Ah yes I know its the Garda HQ, but do all applications have to go through the HQ?

No, your local station.

I was under the impression that the details are entered into pulse in the local station and then the grant letter is issued. An Post handle the payments etc.

Correct.

ZiabR · 11-12-2019 10:20am

Thanks for clearing that up. It is shocking just how over complicated the whole process is.

Bagpipe · 13-12-2019 7:01pm

So an update on this epic saga,

I was in contact with the super during the week. We got a date arranged for the interview but things aren't looking very good. The first thing said over the phone was that he already was inclined to deny the "4 applications I had sent in multiple times for 3 shotguns and rifle". For no aforementioned reason I might add. (It's a great day for the parish when you've applied for more 3 more firearms unbeknownst to yourself in your own name and with your own address :eek: )

The following conversation had a tone that sounded as though I should've been shot for having the audacity to even attempt to apply for another firearm let alone ring to arrange the time of the meeting.

When asked the usual why I needed this firearm and accessory over the phone my reasons didn't seem audibly satisfactory at all.

And thats everything I have for the moment until my next encounter.

Cass · 13-12-2019 7:07pm

Just a bit of an opinion/advice. Accept no verbal refusal (if one comes). Make sure everything is in writing. No paper trail and you have no avenue to appeal.

Bagpipe · 13-12-2019 7:09pm

Cass wrote: »

Just a bit of an opinion/advice. Accept no verbal refusal (if one comes). Make sure everything is in writing. No paper trail and you have no avenue to appeal.

Would it be sent in a formal letter?

Cass · 13-12-2019 7:45pm

Yes. Unlikely that it'll be given to you at the end of the meeting and hopefully it won't be issued at all, but if it comes down to it you should receive it in the post and if not demand one.

IOW if at the end of the meeting it is a refusal make sure you say "when will i receive/can i expect the refusal in writing?"

Emmersonn · 14-12-2019 6:27pm

It might be a good idea as suggested earlier to have your solicitor with you.

Grizzly 45 · 14-12-2019 9:10pm

IF the Super or Cheif will agree that is...Most will refuse that request.So hit them with the fact that you will then be recording the meeting instead.:p

ZiabR · 16-12-2019 9:58am

Christ Bagpipe, I have not read a story as good as this in a long time. The plot thickens for sure. Keep us updated.

Cass · 16-12-2019 12:16pm

I would not recommend a solicitor. A witness or someone to accompany you by all means, but not a solicitor. It sets a tone and will immediately set a defensive and possibly confrontational tone in the meeting.

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut comes to mind. A solicitor should be a last resort and not used a means of threat, intimidation and in my opinion it can have a negative effect.

tudderone · 17-12-2019 2:25pm

I see on the front of todays Irish times that there is to be a clear out of the senior ranks of the Gardai. 30 superintendents and chief superintendents are to be give the golden handshake and told so long.

ZiabR · 17-12-2019 2:32pm

tudderone wrote: »

I see on the front of todays Irish times that there is to be a clear out of the senior ranks of the Gardai. 30 superintendents and chief superintendents are to be give the golden handshake and told so long.

This part of weeding out the backhanders and bringing in more transparency?

Grizzly 45 · 17-12-2019 2:33pm

Or is that just a new PC way of calling it ,and doing a "purge"? Can be a double edged sword stuff like this.

tudderone · 17-12-2019 2:35pm

They are getting great pay-offs, very generous by any standards. Who knows, we may even get a police force thats professional and fit for purpose.

ZiabR · 17-12-2019 2:42pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Or is that just a new PC way of calling it ,and doing a "purge"? Can be a double edged sword stuff like this.

I would tend to agree with you Grizzly. Things rarely just involve the Super or Chief Super. Whatever the reason for the layoffs, the repercussions would nearly always filter down into the lower ranks of guards and knock a few noses out of joint. This can be a double edged sword for sure.

We already know that the guards are way understaffed, so I think it would be a safe assumption that there is more to this than just clearing ranks.

Grizzly 45 · 17-12-2019 2:47pm

tudderone wrote: »

They are getting great pay-offs, very generous by any standards. Who knows, we may even get a police force thats professional and fit for purpose.

In a parallel universe Ireland that is.:rolleyes::D It's an endemic ingrained problem in the force since the States foundation.Only way to sort this out is to do like the RUC.Disband the force and strt again from the ground up.Or create a a 3rd force like in many EU countries,an armed para military police force whose sole job is dealing with political,radicals and threats of the like to the state,with CLEARLY defined zones of busisness under the constitution and law.And let AGS get on with the mundane police tasks of parking tickets,and helping old ladies cross the road.

Grizzly 45 · 17-12-2019 2:51pm

ZiabR wrote: »

I would tend to agree with you Grizzly. Things rarely just involve the Super or Chief Super. Whatever the reason for the layoffs, the repercussions would nearly always filter down into the lower ranks of guards and knock a few noses out of joint. This can be a double edged sword for sure.

We already know that the guards are way understaffed, so I think it would be a safe assumption that there is more to this than just clearing ranks.

Once you get above the rank of Sgt in AGS,it starts becoming political.Once above the rank of inspector,it is a political promotion.Once you are super,you are there because of politics.

ZiabR · 17-12-2019 2:54pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/cabinet-to-be-asked-to-approve-garda-redundancy-scheme-1.4117278

Here is the link for anyone interested.

tudderone · 17-12-2019 3:02pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

In a parallel universe Ireland that is.:rolleyes::D It's an endemic ingrained problem in the force since the States foundation.Only way to sort this out is to do like the RUC.Disband the force and strt again from the ground up.Or create a a 3rd force like in many EU countries,an armed para military police force whose sole job is dealing with political,radicals and threats of the like to the state,with CLEARLY defined zones of busisness under the constitution and law.And let AGS get on with the mundane police tasks of parking tickets,and helping old ladies cross the road.

Isn't that what the special branch is, or was ?

Grizzly 45 · 17-12-2019 8:39pm

Nope,they are a branch of the AGS who are supposedly apolitical and were to deal with any threats to the state.However they like aGS in general are a political arm of the Irish Govt and have been so since the foundation.

A paramilitary police force like the Gendarmaire, in France Bundes grenz schutz in Germany and the Gaurdia Civil in Spain and Italys Carabineri and Gaurdia de Fininsia are wholly outside the police remit and arm and are tasked with dealing with major threats to the state.IE radical iIslam,extremists of both sides of the political divide,domestic terrorism and massive fraud and narcotic gangs as in Italys case with the Gaurdia de Finanzia,who are an arm of their Revenue comission,and are better armed and equipped than some branches of our armed forces. The idea of this is that the national police force does not become a politisied arm of a govt used to suppress dissent of their opposition on a day to day basis.

ZiabR · 18-12-2019 12:38pm

Will we ever see reform in this country... We have such reactive systems here, never a proactive one.

We should be looking to follow suit with the other EU countries and setup a dedicated paramilitary force to deal with the higher levels of crime that are rampant in recent years.

Grizzly 45 · 18-12-2019 2:34pm

Not unless the Irish people want to revamp thier country and system of government,and of course if our EU overlords allow such to happen. But then again,the craic might start next year with Brexit,and if this crazy push for a 32 county Ireland does come to pass,then we might see some things a changin

BryanL · 18-12-2019 4:12pm

32 county Ireland? what madness. Yes it worked for thousands of years.

But this 26 + 6 has been such a success for everyone.

tudderone · 18-12-2019 4:13pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not unless the Irish people want to revamp thier country and system of government,and of course if our EU overlords allow such to happen. But then again,the craic might start next year with Brexit,and if this crazy push for a 32 county Ireland does come to pass,then we might see some things a changin

Nah, they crowd here will try to continue the irish way of doing things up there, with the usual corruption, backhanders, relations being dropped into cushy jobs etc. Then we will have the unionist wild men getting out the bullets and the bombs, and the marxist-socialist freedom fighters returning the favour. Of course we would be able to go to the eu on the mooch and see if we can get more money for it. Westminster gives the north 9 billion pounds a year, where would we find that money ?

Grizzly 45 · 19-12-2019 2:16am

I hope I'm around to see how the utter polar opposites of gun liscensing between NI and the ROI will work out for us.:p Esp NI with concealed carry,an armed police force,reloading,black powder,IPSC and liscensing the man not the gun.As well as proably more illegal arms up there than legal arms will work out against ,the most restrictive gun legislation and policies in the EU. Not to mind a much more Bolshie attitude to things up North than down here.

Still, it will make our shower have to work for their money in the Dail...Imagine a quarter of the Dail full of dour Peter Robinson,and Orange men types,saying NO! to everything,just for the sheer Hell of it!:D:D

ZiabR · 19-12-2019 9:31am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I hope I'm around to see how the utter polar opposites of gun liscensing between NI and the ROI will work out for us.:p Esp NI with concealed carry,an armed police force,reloading,black powder,IPSC and liscensing the man not the gun.As well as proably more illegal arms up there than legal arms will work out against ,the most restrictive gun legislation and policies in the EU. Not to mind a much more Bolshie attitude to things up North than down here.

Still, it will make our shower have to work for their money in the Dail...Imagine a quarter of the Dail full of dour Peter Robinson,and Orange men types,saying NO! to everything,just for the sheer Hell of it!:D:D

That is going to be one hell of a mine field for sure. The south will come off the worse of the two.

Bagpipe · 29-12-2019 3:34pm

So if 26+6 occurs which licensing system is most likely to prevail?

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Feeling like AGS are giving me the run around.

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County