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Feeling like AGS are giving me the run around.

  • 22-11-2019 2:30pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭ Bagpipe


    Hello,
    I threw in 2 applications (Shotgun and moderator for another rifle) nearly a month and a half ago, the FO has been "looking for me" for last 4 weeks but every time I call the station he's either "in the car" or "off on work-break until Monday, then until Wednesday, then until Friday etc.). I'm starting to get a bit annoyed because I don't want to be constantly annoying them but I would expect that they would have the decency to at least contact me after taking my details so many times.



    So would you guys have any ideas on what to do next or am i just being a (whatever the word is :p) ?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,569 ✭✭✭ garv123


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    Hello,
    I threw in 2 applications (Shotgun and moderator for another rifle) nearly a month and a half ago, the FO has been "looking for me" for last 4 weeks but every time I call the station he's either "in the car" or "off on work-break until Monday, then until Wednesday, then until Friday etc.). I'm starting to get a bit annoyed because I don't want to be constantly annoying them but I would expect that they would have the decency to at least contact me after taking my details so many times.



    So would you guys have any ideas on what to do next or am i just being a (whatever the word is :p) ?


    Ring the station and ask what days he's on next and what time his shift starts at. Be there just as his shift starts.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    To be honest the time frame isn't too bad.
    If you take the individual personality / GS organisation as a whole, out of the equation the system for interfacing with the GS reference fire arms licenceing is very flawed.

    One individual with little or no experience or knowledge is given the sole responsibility of maintaining / supporting the district firearms system etc. This job is in addition to thier normal GS duties. So factoring in rosters, court dates, time off etc it is indeed very hard to meet up with each other. Throw in a few major crimes or sprees then it goes to hell in a hand basket.

    I had been lucky that the orginal "FO' in the district was a long serving Garda Sgt, his replacement was a Gaurd (I don't belive his work ethic was great) and it turned out that the Superintendent only gave him a few hours over his roster period (not daily) to cover firearms buisness. The latest guy is totally different and on the ball, but is still no where as speedy as the orginal Sgt due to his on going commitments.

    If you do meet up with him/her try and get a mobile number off them and it will help narrow the gap.

    If it drags on contact the Supers Secretary, usually a Gaurd themselves, and inquire about your application. It may be on the desk waiting for signing, if not then politely mention how long its been etc, etc. You may get the standard response 'if you have a complaint, please forward via e-mail to the Superintendent'. This is up to you..... but when I had issues I played dumb and said something like ' have I done something wrong, is there a problem?...'
    In both cases I was contacted pretty quickly by the FO about my paperwork.

    Just a tip, have a replacement set of paper work on stand by incase you are asked to resubmit.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    garv123 wrote: »
    Ring the station and ask what days he's on next and what time his shift starts at. Be there just as his shift starts.

    Doesn't always work. They may be rostered in but it doesn't mean they are present that day. Also they, or they used get a briefing prior to commencing the shift, and to be honest they'd be gone out the back door before you'd know it. So you could be standing there wasting time and journey.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    We have all been there, i certainly have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    a replacement set of paper work on stand by incase you are asked to resubmit.

    Not really !Be asking a lot of questions on how they lost a lot of your confidental information in the station and in doing so violated the data protection act in not securing your most confidential info on medical and firearms information, and whether the data protection officer should be informed about this.

    Be prety sure your information will be found right sharpish then and dealt with

    This lost the application BS WON'T wash anymore with us.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Not really !Be asking a lot of questions on how they lost a lot of your confidental information in the station and in doing so violated the data protection act in not securing your most confidential info on medical and firearms information, and whether the data protection officer should be informed about this.

    Be prety sure your information will be found right sharpish then and dealt with

    This lost the application BS WON'T wash anymore with us.

    Don't forget the old trick of requesting a second set of application forms and they compare them to the originals, that just mysteriously reappear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭ Bagpipe


    I'm not sure how to quote multiple posts but I'll do my best to reply to everyone.


    garv123: Each time that I called was when the FO was supposed to be on duty but of course he was either "in the car" or "not working until such and such a day".

    cookimonster: I wouldn't mind if I had to wait a few months for the license as long as I knew that it was granted but it's because theres something wrong with the application and the FO is looking for me. That's the only reason im anxious to get in contact with him.

    Grizzly 45: Personally I wouldn't go at them about losing the papers :D somehow I feel as though i would have a metaphorical red x on my door from doing so!

    oldgit1897: Surely they're not that cute, does that actually happen?

    Thank you all for the replies so I'm not sure what to do next, will i ring today or wait until tomorrow?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    oldgit1897: Surely they're not that cute, does that actually happen?

    Gosh no, priests never abuse kids either ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Up to you,but losing your confidential info by any other data handler is a heavy rap ,with a jailable offence sanction.Why should the AGS be exempt from this and pick on you for losing your info?This isnt the Soviet Union.....Yet.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Don't forget the old trick of requesting a second set of application forms and they compare them to the originals, that just mysteriously reappear.

    I know this happens but its about time we started to act more appropriately when it does.

    Next time, and i'm directing to everyone not just yourself, demand (via a written letter to the FO) a letter from the FO to say that the previous application was lost. When asked why, you say there is sensitive information protected by GDPR on those forms and any loss of such information is an offence. You want a letter to say it was lost before you'll submit new forms.

    Three things will happen.
    1. You'll be given the letter and you have a magic case for a complaint including €250,000 fine for every piece of data lost
    2. You won't be given the letter and phoned, not written to, to avoid leaving a paper trail and in essence bullied into submitting the forms (FCA1) again *** DON'T SUBMIT TO THIS ***
    3. Your original FCA1 will magically reappear.

    The reason AGS can say they process all application in time (3 months) is because they control the data and when it's entered into PULSE. Without receipts for when the paperwork is submitted we have no case to argue.

    Same applies for "lost" paperwork. Unless we start to create a paper trail that we can use to validate our point about the level of lost applications we are pissing into the wind.

    We need to start documenting everything and start to play the game properly.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    I'm not sure how to quote multiple posts but I'll do my best to reply to everyone.?
    Just FYI, there is an icon beside the quote icon. Its a + symbol with a quotation mark next to it.

    6034073

    When you click it it'll highlight. Then when you have clicked on all the posts you want to reply to (as the one reply) you click either "QUOTE" on the last post you wish to quote or "POST REPLY" on the bottom left of the thread and you'll be brought to a new page with a reply box in it.

    6034073

    All the posts you selected will be present. To shorten the content, or remove some of the content of the various posts you don't wish to quote to simply select the text in each quote and delete it. Leave the bit you wish to reply to.

    It'll look something like this:

    6034073

    You will know the start and end of each person's quoted post because it'll have the words QUOTE in brackets, [ ],with the person's name at the start and the word QUOTE in brackets, [ ] , with a forward slash, / , to show the end of the post. As highlighted above. Red is your post, green was Grizz's.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Cass wrote: »
    I know this happens but its about time we started to act more appropriately when it does.

    Next time, and i'm directing to everyone not just yourself, demand (via a written letter to the FO) a letter from the FO to say that the previous application was lost. When asked why, you say there is sensitive information protected by GDPR on those forms and any loss of such information is an offence. You want a letter to say it was lost before you'll submit new forms.

    Three things will happen.
    1. You'll be given the letter and you have a magic case for a complaint including €250,000 fine for every piece of data lost
    2. You won't be given the letter and phoned, not written to, to avoid leaving a paper trail and in essence bullied into submitting the forms (FCA1) again *** DON'T SUBMIT TO THIS ***
    3. Your original FCA1 will magically reappear.

    The reason AGS can say they process all application in time (3 months) is because they control the data and when it's entered into PULSE. Without receipts for when the paperwork is submitted we have no case to argue.

    Same applies for "lost" paperwork. Unless we start to create a paper trail that we can use to validate our point about the level of lost applications we are pissing into the wind.

    We need to start documenting everything and start to play the game properly.


    Well you know the score Cass, you've been to a gunshop, seen something you really want. Buy it and submit the paperwork. You want the gun yesterday and anything that will delay the application or rock the boat, into the guards starting their work-to-rule-go slow you will avoid. In fact most people will swallow the crap so long as they get their licence.

    Also the old "Don't piss off the guards, they'll get you for a baldy tyre or your tax being out of date" attitude still prevails with a lot of people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭ Bagpipe


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Gosh no, priests never abuse kids either ;)
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Up to you,but losing your confidential info by any other data handler is a heavy rap ,with a jailable offence sanction.Why should the AGS be exempt from this and pick on you for losing your info?This isnt the Soviet Union.....Yet.
    Cass wrote: »
    I know this happens but its about time we started to act more appropriately when it does.

    Next time, and i'm directing to everyone not just yourself, demand (via a written letter to the FO) a letter from the FO to say that the previous application was lost. When asked why, you say there is sensitive information protected by GDPR on those forms and any loss of such information is an offence. You want a letter to say it was lost before you'll submit new forms.

    Three things will happen.
    1. You'll be given the letter and you have a magic case for a complaint including €250,000 fine for every piece of data lost
    2. You won't be given the letter and phoned, not written to, to avoid leaving a paper trail and in essence bullied into submitting the forms (FCA1) again *** DON'T SUBMIT TO THIS ***
    3. Your original FCA1 will magically reappear.

    The reason AGS can say they process all application in time (3 months) is because they control the data and when it's entered into PULSE. Without receipts for when the paperwork is submitted we have no case to argue.

    Same applies for "lost" paperwork. Unless we start to create a paper trail that we can use to validate our point about the level of lost applications we are pissing into the wind.

    We need to start documenting everything and start to play the game properly.




    I think the above is right? Thanks for the help Cass;)


    I'm not sure if they lost the application because I literally haven't been able to talk to the man to see whats wrong. UNLESS its just taking time because of the 'occurrences' in my locality a few weeks ago. I'm guessing from looking at other posts it would be recommended to start getting signatures and records of when my application was taken and who by?



    Otherwise I don't know guys I just want my firearm before Christmas :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭ Bagpipe


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Well you know the score Cass, you've been to a gunshop, seen something you really want. Buy it and submit the paperwork. You want the gun yesterday and anything that will delay the application or rock the boat, into the guards starting their work-to-rule-go slow you will avoid. In fact most people will swallow the crap so long as they get their licence.

    Also the old "Don't piss off the guards, they'll get you for a baldy tyre or your tax being out of date" attitude still prevails with a lot of people.




    That attitude is definitely still around especially in the small districts where everyone knows everyone :D


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    .......... anything that will delay the application or rock the boat, into the guards starting their work-to-rule-go slow you will avoid. In fact most people will swallow the crap so long as they get their licence.
    And where has it gotten us? The time is takes to process is actually slowing and we're now getting every ounce of sh*t they can throw at us. So we're no better off.

    The other side of the coin is if you're happy to eat the sh*t sandwich then don't waste time complaining. It's like complaining about the politicians but then saying you've never voted.
    Also the old "Don't piss off the guards, they'll get you for a baldy tyre or your tax being out of date" attitude still prevails with a lot of people.
    Don't have bald tyres of no tax.

    Don't tell me this is a simplistic attitude, it's not. We're always going to be under the microscope, and not just in our shooting lives, so don't give them a scab to pick. As i said to a family member recently when neighbors accused her dogs of sh**ing in the green area of her estate, though she denies it. Don't allow your dogs out the front, off leash, and they won't be able to try and blame you.

    I've said many times over the years we take too much, then are surprised when they keep moving the goalposts. Why wouldn't they? the "cap in hand" attitude is still alive and the sooner we cop on that we are not criminals and have every right to demand they do their jobs, the better we'll be.

    Hell just look at the announcement last week on FB, and via the various shooting groups from AGS urging all firearm owners to submit their renewals in a timely manner because its OUR fault things are slowing down. The absolute fecking neck to make such an accusation.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭ Sika98k


    [QUOTE=Cass;111835042

    Hell just look at the announcement last week on FB, and via the various shooting groups from AGS urging all firearm owners to submit their renewals in a timely manner because its OUR fault things are slowing down. The absolute fecking neck to make such an accusation.[/QUOTE]

    Where was that ? Didn’t see it anywhere I roam on FB. Because I would LOVE to reply.


  • Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭ feartuath


    Sika98k wrote: »
    Where was that ? Didn’t see it anywhere I roam on FB. Because I would LOVE to reply.
    Bagpipe wrote: »
    That attitude is definitely still around especially in the small districts where everyone knows everyone :D


    There is an article on this weeks farmers journal about firearms seized in Tipperary because of licences lapsed.
    Pg 8.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Cass wrote: »


    I've said many times over the years we take too much, then are surprised when they keep moving the goalposts. Why wouldn't they? the "cap in hand" attitude is still alive and the sooner we cop on that we are not criminals and have every right to demand they do their jobs, the better we'll be.

    Hell just look at the announcement last week on FB, and via the various shooting groups from AGS urging all firearm owners to submit their renewals in a timely manner because its OUR fault things are slowing down. The absolute fecking neck to make such an accusation.


    Yeah but the fight-da-powa thing will get us nowhere in a hurry either, the public are not on our side. Its not just the firearms licencing either. You seen the **** storm from the rank and file when the new commissioner was mooted, because they knew he was going to try to weed out the chancers, gangsters and bad apples.

    The problem is the gardai have been a law unto themselves since the founding of the state, getting away with all sorts of crap that would have seen them sacked in any other european country.

    I went through an interview with a senior guard when the centrefire pistol ban came in and they were restricted. His behaviour was scandalous, and hard to believe, he communicated in grunts, eye-rolls and personal insults, wouldn't greet me when i entered, or shake my hand. What would have happened if i made an official complaint ? Absolutely nothing, but probably a couple of detectives following me or something unpleasant.

    Look at how Maurice Mc cabe was treated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭ Bagpipe


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Yeah but the fight-da-powa thing will get us nowhere in a hurry either, the public are not on our side. Its not just the firearms licencing either. You seen the **** storm from the rank and file when the new commissioner was mooted, because they knew he was going to try to weed out the chancers, gangsters and bad apples.

    The problem is the gardai have been a law unto themselves since the founding of the state, getting away with all sorts of crap that would have seen them sacked in any other european country.

    I went through an interview with a senior guard when the centrefire pistol ban came in and they were restricted. His behaviour was scandalous, and hard to believe, he communicated in grunts, eye-rolls and personal insults, wouldn't greet me when i entered, or shake my hand. What would have happened if i made an official complaint ? Absolutely nothing, but probably a couple of detectives following me or something unpleasant.

    Look at how Maurice Mc cabe was treated.


    A good purge wouldn't go astray.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Yeah but the fight-da-powa thing will get us nowhere in a hurry either, the public are not on our side.
    Gonna stop ya right here.

    This is not a "fight da power" situation. We're not looking for the law to be amended, repealed, etc. We're demanding that AGS involved in firearms do THEIR job as laid out by the firearms act, and the Commissioner's guidelines.

    Nothing more.

    So we don't need the public on our side. This is not a PR situation and the great unwashed have no say in how AGS act in the course of their duties in this matter, nor does their opinion count for spit.

    We must make sure all our Ducks are in a row when applying so why are AGS not held to the same standard. Its not even a high standard, just the ability to do their job correctly.

    If we can start to document and record instances of lost applications, delays, etc. then we can start to argue on a "fight da power" level for real change but without actual data its only about feelings, and facts don't care about feelings.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Cass wrote: »
    Gonna stop ya right here.

    This is not a "fight da power" situation. We're not looking for the law to be amended, repealed, etc. We're demanding that AGS involved in firearms do THEIR job as laid out by the firearms act, and the Commissioner's guidelines.

    Nothing more.


    So we don't need the public on our side. This is not a PR situation and the great unwashed have no say in how AGS act in the course of their duties in this matter, nor does their opinion count for spit.

    We must make sure all our Ducks are in a row when applying so why are AGS not held to the same standard. Its not even a high standard, just the ability to do their job correctly.

    If we can start to document and record instances of lost applications, delays, etc. then we can start to argue on a "fight da power" level for real change but without actual data its only about feelings, and facts don't care about feelings.

    Yeah, but it doesn't matter what we want or how right we are, the guards consider themselves to be the law or above it. We have seen that thousands of times on here with people dealing with them and them acting up, doing what they want. Supers having blanket bans of what they will issue a cert for in their patch. I know several who point blank refuse to allow moderators. A senior garda not doing their job, not considering each application on its merits.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Yeah but the fight-da-powa thing will get us nowhere in a hurry either, the public are not on our side. Its not just the firearms licencing either. You seen the **** storm from the rank and file when the new commissioner was mooted, because they knew he was going to try to weed out the chancers, gangsters and bad apples.

    The problem is the gardai have been a law unto themselves since the founding of the state, getting away with all sorts of crap that would have seen them sacked in any other european country.

    I went through an interview with a senior guard when the centrefire pistol ban came in and they were restricted. His behaviour was scandalous, and hard to believe, he communicated in grunts, eye-rolls and personal insults, wouldn't greet me when i entered, or shake my hand. What would have happened if i made an official complaint ? Absolutely nothing, but probably a couple of detectives following me or something unpleasant.

    Look at how Maurice Mc cabe was treated.

    I had one like that too. A formal complaint to GSOC on his carry on and attitude soon changed his tune.
    Kind of happens when they walk into their office to find a colleague of equal or superior rank having a good read of your file,and a poke in their desk drawers proably as well.It violates both the Garda charter on dealing with the public,and common manners.Fortunately those kind are retiring and dieing out like the dinosaurs they are.Dealing with the Gaurds in recent times had become alot more customer friendly I find to me,personally.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭ Asus1


    I must be very lucky as the 2 people (female and male) i have any interactions with here in kildare in the Naas station are sound.In saying that I have never met them face to face as i have not had the need to yet so maybe im missing out on all the fun and games of chasing them for a meeting.It seems a bit mad that one minute they are on patrol and the next minute they are in shuffling through renewals and applications.Its abit like a pilot acting as a steward once the plane takes off as the airline don't want to emply anyone to do the stewards job.Just employ a person in the larger station's to look after firearms applications and deal with the people looking for them.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Yeah, but it doesn't matter what we want or how right we are,
    Yes it does and the sooner we begin to act like it does the better. Everything we want, in licensing terms, is exactly what is in the Act. So it's not beyond the realm of possibility to want it enacted.
    the guards consider themselves to be the law or above it. We have seen that thousands of times on here with people dealing with them and them acting up, doing what they want.
    Some do, no doubt, but as Grizz said those few have numbered days and we need to, well i suppose train is the only word i can think off, the new batch into their new position as FO. Again we're not looking for special treatment, just fair treatment as per the Firearms Acts.
    Supers having blanket bans of what they will issue a cert for in their patch.
    And because no one ever got a letter to say this its only word of mouth and we have no stick to beat them with because such a ban is illegal.

    I'm not saying it'll be easy or happen soon, but we need to make a start at some point so why not now? If its because its too hard then what is the point in compaining?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭ Bagpipe


    The FO ignored me again yesterday just for an update so what should I do now? Fair enough if the grant letter comes this week but I'm still a bit vexed over the whole thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Go over his head and make an appointment to see the superintendent. That will get the cat amongst the pigeons and no mistake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ ZiabR


    I would be inclined to agree with the above poster. I would request a meeting with the super and explain the situation.

    I submitted a substitution this morning and was told to expect it back in approx 2-3 weeks. There is no reason for them to take any longer. They already have your details on the system and are simply updating the Firearm.

    It really is as simply as.

    1) FO or Garda stamps the form and signs it
    2) In some cases the Super checks and signs off on the application
    3) it is sent to the civilian staff who update the information on the system
    4) New Licence is sent out in the post.

    All in all, if everyone has the things together, it could be out in the post within 48-72 hours.

    It is pharisaical that in Ireland we are looking at 4-16 weeks.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Sika98k wrote: »
    Where was that ? Didn’t see it anywhere I roam on FB. Because I would LOVE to reply.

    Had to try and find it.

    Its a post from AGS page, from October 24th. You have to scroll down to get it as i cannot link directly to it.

    It's also been posted across other pages, mostly game pages, like the NARGC, Offaly, et. and recently by the North Tipp page (no blame on them, just pointing it out).

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭ Bogwoppit




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ ZiabR


    Bogwoppit wrote: »

    Yeah, I have been told to submit mine 3 months before it is due and to chase it after 2 months to ensure that it is renewed in time.


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