Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Grizzly 45 · 28-11-2020 9:10pm

Mellor wrote: »

. Tough sport on the body.

^THIS^ I concur 100%.having had the misfortune of attending a "rugby " secondary school and having had the dubious honour of having "the claw" as one of my classmates,:rolleyes:up to the Inter way back when.
It was utter sacrilege and social ostracisation not to play rugby for the school, esp if you were a big lad like me back then. [Prop Fwd for the time I had to play it]
I'm so glad I didn't go any further, as I meet occasionally the class of 84 seniors in my travels, and ALL of them have some kind of bollixed joints, backs, necks or other with arthritis,or rheumatism in their mid-50s. You can, and most likely will pay a heavy price for your high school "Glory days" in later life.:eek:

tudderone · 29-11-2020 5:06pm

Some christmas shopping online.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e12uJVIyiNs

Grizzly 45 · 29-11-2020 7:21pm

Well intresting,and definately negates any future gun bans.Anywhere.

Munsterlad102 · 29-11-2020 7:31pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well intresting,and definately negates any future gun bans.Anywhere.

Oh yeah, the FGC-9. It would be much more effective to regulate ammunition, casings in particular. I believe there was someone in the UK, P.A. Luty I think, who made a sub-machine gun and documented the process. Unfortunately his design was used by the Halle shooter. But I do think that bullet casings should be more regulated.

Grizzly 45 · 29-11-2020 7:57pm

Except tha he had also printed his ammo casings tooo.

Munsterlad102 · 29-11-2020 8:04pm

Of course he did. I didn't think that plastic could withstand the pressure but I was wrong.

tudderone · 29-11-2020 8:48pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well intresting,and definately negates any future gun bans.Anywhere.

Western Europe ? France i wonder ? Seeing what was going on in Paris and a good few other cities over there last night, they don't seem too happy.

Grizzly 45 · 30-11-2020 1:17pm

Definitely, going by the two-pin plugs in the sockets around Mr Starks abode.

Mellor · 01-12-2020 12:59am

tudderone wrote: »

Western Europe ? France i wonder ? Seeing what was going on in Paris and a good few other cities over there last night, they don't seem too happy.

Definitely western Europe. But his accent and phrasing (despite the concealment) suggests somewhere Germanic. Reloadng powders are czech which doesn't mean much.

It's a very interesting exercise in small scale design and production. I got the impression that he doesn't get to use it much outdoors. So I was wondering what the life span on it. A stress test would be interesting but not practical when he can't turn up to a range and run boxes through it.
I agree with his idea that he needs to protect his rights. But I don't quite understand that how he thinks he is actually going to do it. A tyrant emerges, and a handful of guys with a few dozen 9mm rounds aren't going to do anything.

tudderone · 01-12-2020 1:34am

Mellor wrote: »

Definitely western Europe. But his accent and phrasing (despite the concealment) suggests somewhere Germanic. Reloadng powders are czech which doesn't mean much.

It's a very interesting exercise in small scale design and production. I got the impression that he doesn't get to use it much outdoors. So I was wondering what the life span on it. A stress test would be interesting but not practical when he can't turn up to a range and run boxes through it.
I agree with his idea that he needs to protect his rights. But I don't quite understand that how he thinks he is actually going to do it. A tyrant emerges, and a handful of guys with a few dozen 9mm rounds aren't going to do anything.

Plenty of tyrants out there, but they come along not with soldiers dogs and guns, but a manipulated media, soothing words and smiling face. A fact that came about with the US election, for the past few elections, is that young people and probably older people too, no longer believe democracy works.

The plastic guns ? My first pistol was a glock. I was dubious about its plastic contruction, despite their reputation, I'm old enough to remember when everything was made of metal, and plastic was cheap rubbish. But you could squeeze the grip and watch it flex, you could bend the frame under the barrel, but it worked flawlessly and took the battering of the slide no problem.

Mellor · 01-12-2020 2:44am

tudderone wrote: »

Plenty of tyrants out there, but they come along not with soldiers dogs and guns, but a manipulated media, soothing words and smiling face.

There are plenty of tyrants out there. Many countries are under an authoritarian regime, or even totalitarian in come cases. Not as many as one before, but they exist.
My point was that, at numerous times, the guy spoke about protecting himself against a tyrant or tyrannical government. I'm wondering if he genuinely believes literally. Does he think that if the worst would happen. He would actually be out there shooting people.
Or was is it simply a demonstration that over restricted gun control encourages the development of uncontrollable firearms.

In the case of the latter, it's very effective imo. But at times, he came across like it was not that at all. Saying things like;
"This protects my freedom of speech."
I'm wondering if he actually believes that. How?

A fact that came about with the US election, for the past few elections, is that young people and probably older people too, no longer believe democracy works.

I'm not sure what you mean by democracy not working.
The election was a fairly basic example of how democracy works.

The issue is that the US is so polarised that wide margin lose still means close to 50% of the voters went on the "losing" side. And they are increasingly refusing to accept losing. That's a massive failing of the people imo.

The plastic guns ? My first pistol was a glock. I was dubious about its plastic contruction, despite their reputation, I'm old enough to remember when everything was made of metal, and plastic was cheap rubbish. But you could squeeze the grip and watch it flex, you could bend the frame under the barrel, but it worked flawlessly and took the battering of the slide no problem.

Cheap plastic crap was cheap because it could be molded in thin 1mm thick sections. But solid plastic is fairly strong. Used n construction all the time. I've never held a glock, but I'm not one surprise they are robust.

However, the glock still had key metal parts like the barrel and slide. 100% plastic is a bit of a tech jump from there. But I'm still not surprised that a plastic firearm can function. For me it's the fact that it's 3d printed which is structurally very different to a some cast or mold into one piece.

Grizzly 45 · 01-12-2020 2:20pm

I'd tip that he is German, as I had a listen to a few of the Lbary podcasts and he does have certain German inflexions on the English accent.A giveaway on people who have learned English in Europe in recent times. None speak the queens English:pac: They all have American influence on their phraseology etc.

Anyhoo,I think his point is now that gun control and "tyranny" whether active or a slow malignant cancerous format, or "boiling the frog slowly" that we suffer more of in the West, has lost one of its nastier fangs of gun control thru the technology of 3 D printing. We have been here before, with the crossbow, the printing press, the PGP encryption software, and now3d printable guns.

There is no way to really stop this technology falling into civilian hands." you cant stop the signal" as the info is on the web and block chained, these guys are super careful in their internet habits, controlling 3D printers is not going to happen. They are now at 150 euros on Ali express, ditto the plastic printing materials, and even if you did license them, there is nothing stopping anyone building one with a licensed 3d printer and spare parts. You could make it an "offence " like in the UK to "download or possess information likely to be of use to a terrorist or organisation" IE the files themselves.But that's a spiderweb of protection and a non-knowledge of how the Net works or VPNs etc, and would require the global consensus of net regulation.
Only thing I can see that's just about controllable is,the powder and primers for the ammo,or peoples unwillingness to learn CAD and some basic programming skills.

Endurance of the gun is moot really, as this is a throwaway device. Good enough to get you something better off your enemy, or to build a couple to have handy.

I certainly could see it as being a game-changer in places like Venezuela or Hong Kong or the US where gun control to ever kick off properly.
Sleepy Joe's 200usd mag tax won't happen if people can print up their mags...As an aside on that, it is confirmed...Not ONE high cap mag has been handed in in NY or NJ to LE since the ban 3 years ago...

So guess how many "assault weapons of war"[the new anti buzzterm] will be handed in?And guess how much fun there will be with the "buyback" those idiots are proposing? Flogging them a fortune in 10 dollar 3d printed guns made from Home depot springs and barrels for hundreds?:p:p:p

4 or 5 decentralised printers making the component parts in a "cell" Another "cell" buying the springs,or making the trigger parts and barrel out of steel rod [soon to be printable too no doubt] All being delivered to one assembly point, and distributed via cutoffs.
Another cell printing the ammo...All you need as a resistance leader is to figure out where you get enough powder and primers or fresh 9mm to keep a loaded ammo supply to your fighters.
Intresting times ....

Grizzly 45 · 01-12-2020 2:34pm

I

'm not sure what you mean by democracy not working.
The election was a fairly basic example of how democracy works.

The issue is that the US is so polarised that wide margin lose still means close to 50% of the voters went on the "losing" side. And they are increasingly refusing to accept losing. That's a massive failing of the people imo.

Democracy is the tyranny of the majority. Hence many Communist states have "democratic" in their titles.
Constitutionalist Republicanism[what the US and Irl and supposedly most Western countries are based on] is the protection of the minority from the majority's tyranny.

At this stage, it is not about losing, but about the utter irregularities that are beginning to show up, and MSM to the contrary,are creditable and are grounds to question the whole election process. There is no question by now this will go to the supreme court.

tudderone · 01-12-2020 7:51pm

What i meant was, a sizeable amount of people don't see any real difference between the dem's and the republicans, tweedle dum and tweedle dee, or fine gael and fianna fail, so give up and don't bother voting anyway.

tudderone · 01-12-2020 7:57pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'd tip that he is German, as I had a listen to a few of the Lbary podcasts and he does have certain German inflexions on the English accent.A giveaway on people who have learned English in Europe in recent times. None speak the queens English:pac: They all have American influence on their phraseology etc.

Anyhoo,I think his point is now that gun control and "tyranny" whether active or a slow malignant cancerous format, or "boiling the frog slowly" that we suffer more of in the West, has lost one of its nastier fangs of gun control thru the technology of 3 D printing. We have been here before, with the crossbow, the printing press, the PGP encryption software, and now3d printable guns.

There is no way to really stop this technology falling into civilian hands." you cant stop the signal" as the info is on the web and block chained, these guys are super careful in their internet habits, controlling 3D printers is not going to happen. They are now at 150 euros on Ali express, ditto the plastic printing materials, and even if you did license them, there is nothing stopping anyone building one with a licensed 3d printer and spare parts. You could make it an "offence " like in the UK to "download or possess information likely to be of use to a terrorist or organisation" IE the files themselves.But that's a spiderweb of protection and a non-knowledge of how the Net works or VPNs etc, and would require the global consensus of net regulation.
Only thing I can see that's just about controllable is,the powder and primers for the ammo,or peoples unwillingness to learn CAD and some basic programming skills.

Endurance of the gun is moot really, as this is a throwaway device. Good enough to get you something better off your enemy, or to build a couple to have handy.

I certainly could see it as being a game-changer in places like Venezuela or Hong Kong or the US where gun control to ever kick off properly.
Sleepy Joe's 200usd mag tax won't happen if people can print up their mags...As an aside on that, it is confirmed...Not ONE high cap mag has been handed in in NY or NJ to LE since the ban 3 years ago...

So guess how many "assault weapons of war"[the new anti buzzterm] will be handed in?And guess how much fun there will be with the "buyback" those idiots are proposing? Flogging them a fortune in 10 dollar 3d printed guns made from Home depot springs and barrels for hundreds?:p:p:p

4 or 5 decentralised printers making the component parts in a "cell" Another "cell" buying the springs,or making the trigger parts and barrel out of steel rod [soon to be printable too no doubt] All being delivered to one assembly point, and distributed via cutoffs.
Another cell printing the ammo...All you need as a resistance leader is to figure out where you get enough powder and primers or fresh 9mm to keep a loaded ammo supply to your fighters.
Intresting times ....

I was going to buy an Ender 3, which are supposed to be an excellent printer, to use inside the house when it gets too cold to use the lathe and mill out in the shed. Just for something to mess around with, its a hobby in itself. I recommend Naomi Wu's (aka sexy cyborg) channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NceBBAKDLEY

Munsterlad102 · 01-12-2020 8:26pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'd tip that he is German, as I had a listen to a few of the Lbary podcasts and he does have certain German inflexions on the English accent.A giveaway on people who have learned English in Europe in recent times. None speak the queens English:pac: They all have American influence on their phraseology etc.

Anyhoo,I think his point is now that gun control and "tyranny" whether active or a slow malignant cancerous format, or "boiling the frog slowly" that we suffer more of in the West, has lost one of its nastier fangs of gun control thru the technology of 3 D printing. We have been here before, with the crossbow, the printing press, the PGP encryption software, and now3d printable guns.

There is no way to really stop this technology falling into civilian hands." you cant stop the signal" as the info is on the web and block chained, these guys are super careful in their internet habits, controlling 3D printers is not going to happen. They are now at 150 euros on Ali express, ditto the plastic printing materials, and even if you did license them, there is nothing stopping anyone building one with a licensed 3d printer and spare parts. You could make it an "offence " like in the UK to "download or possess information likely to be of use to a terrorist or organisation" IE the files themselves.But that's a spiderweb of protection and a non-knowledge of how the Net works or VPNs etc, and would require the global consensus of net regulation.
Only thing I can see that's just about controllable is,the powder and primers for the ammo,or peoples unwillingness to learn CAD and some basic programming skills.

Endurance of the gun is moot really, as this is a throwaway device. Good enough to get you something better off your enemy, or to build a couple to have handy.

I certainly could see it as being a game-changer in places like Venezuela or Hong Kong or the US where gun control to ever kick off properly.
Sleepy Joe's 200usd mag tax won't happen if people can print up their mags...As an aside on that, it is confirmed...Not ONE high cap mag has been handed in in NY or NJ to LE since the ban 3 years ago...

So guess how many "assault weapons of war"[the new anti buzzterm] will be handed in?And guess how much fun there will be with the "buyback" those idiots are proposing? Flogging them a fortune in 10 dollar 3d printed guns made from Home depot springs and barrels for hundreds?:p:p:p

4 or 5 decentralised printers making the component parts in a "cell" Another "cell" buying the springs,or making the trigger parts and barrel out of steel rod [soon to be printable too no doubt] All being delivered to one assembly point, and distributed via cutoffs.
Another cell printing the ammo...All you need as a resistance leader is to figure out where you get enough powder and primers or fresh 9mm to keep a loaded ammo supply to your fighters.
Intresting times ....

I’d say that he’s Dutch, I know a Dutch lad and the accent is quite similar. Notice the difference between the pronunciation of “th” sounds, different to the German and French “zee” sounds. It’s not as harsh as the German accent or as linguistic as the French, but is somewhere in between. Also German’s gun laws aren’t too bad, whereas the Netherlands’ laws are very restrictive. Anyway that just my guess.

Also regarding the high cap mags, didn’t the California Supreme Court find that the ban was unconstitutional?

Grizzly 45 · 01-12-2020 8:45pm

If you go up to the German coastline around Friesland, Helgoland and such the Dutch and German is almost the same in accents "Platt Deutsch" can be as incomprehensible to A German from Berlin or Bavaria as someone speaking Donegal Gaelic in Kerry.Its a mix of Dutch and German. The Dutch speak English with a kind of a burr in their accents which stands out too. He is definitely from that part of the world alright.
Wonder was that filmed than in the foothills of the Ardennes region? Only kind of mountainous region with a forest that Holland has then I think?

Also regarding the high cap mags, didn’t the California Supreme Court find that the ban was unconstitutional?

Yup,but ASFIK the state is appealing it, so it's still there.

Munsterlad102 · 01-12-2020 9:18pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If you go up to the German coastline around Friesland, Helgoland and such the Dutch and German is almost the same in accents "Platt Deutsch" can be as incomprehensible to A German from Berlin or Bavaria as someone speaking Donegal Gaelic in Kerry.Its a mix of Dutch and German. The Dutch speak English with a kind of a burr in their accents which stands out too. He is definitely from that part of the world alright.
Wonder was that filmed than in the foothills of the Ardennes region? Only kind of mountainous region with a forest that Holland has then I think?

Yup,but ASFIK the state is appealing it, so it's still there.

Yeah I was thinking the exact same as yourself, to be fair he wasn't in much of a mountain perhaps more of a depression in the terrain but it could very well be the Ardennes. If you do a lot of research and analysis you could definitely get a rough area just from the type of trees and rocks. I've only ever been to Amsterdam and Bavaria, not the Dutch countryside so I'm not familiar with that terrain.

Shame, one would have thought that the "shall not be infringed" part would have been pretty cut and dry but then again, looks who's in charge in California.

Rows Grower · 01-12-2020 9:20pm

tudderone wrote: »

What i meant was, a sizeable amount of people don't see any real difference between the dem's and the republicans, tweedle dum and tweedle dee, or fine gael and fianna fail, so give up and don't bother voting anyway.

People died for the right for you to vote for your own government.

You might not respect that and that's totally your prerogative, but don't complain about politics or politicians if you can't be bothered to get up off your arse and exercise that right.

tudderone · 01-12-2020 9:37pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

People died for the right for you to vote for your own government.

You might not respect that and that's totally your prerogative, but don't complain about politics or politicians if you can't be bothered to get up off your arse and exercise that right.

Whats all this you you you bs, where did i say i didn't vote ?

01-12-2020 9:48pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

People died for the right for you to vote for your own government.

You might not respect that and that's totally your prerogative, but don't complain about politics or politicians if you can't be bothered to get up off your arse and exercise that right.

The system will never change. It's all a con. If you vote you are giving them a mandate to rule over you. The only way to remove that mandate and try to effect real change is if enough people don't vote. Then the political class has to admit the system is broken and start offering real alternatives to the people.

I've always voted and always complained. I will no longer vote and will still complain. I never consented to being ruled in this backward system by backward people. If you vote you can't complain because you get what you vote for.

Munsterlad102 · 01-12-2020 9:54pm

The Rifleman wrote: »

The system will never change. It's all a con. If you vote you are giving them a mandate to rule over you. The only way to remove that mandate and try to effect real change is if enough people don't vote. Then the political class has to admit the system is broken and start offering real alternatives to the people.

I've always voted and always complained. I will no longer vote and will still complain. I never consented to being ruled in this backward system by backward people. If you vote you can't complain because you get what you vote for.

Funnily enough this is exactly what they did in the Soviet Union. There was only one candidate per district or electorate but they needed over 50% of the registered voters votes to be elected, so people banded together and boycotted votes unless change was promised. So yeah, this is certainly a possibility but politicians don't need a minimum vote so unless they're threatened as a collective then no change will occur.

01-12-2020 9:58pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Funnily enough this is exactly what they did in the Soviet Union. There was only one candidate per district or electorate but they needed over 50% of the registered voters votes to be elected, so people banded together and boycotted votes unless change was promised. So yeah, this is certainly a possibility but politicians don't need a minimum vote so unless they're threatened as a collective then no change will occur.

But if voter turnout is so low that they have to acknowledge it, it will effect change. Media is obsessed with voter turnout. Politicians want as many to vote as possible as it makes it more legit.

Rows Grower · 01-12-2020 10:35pm

tudderone wrote: »

Whats all this you you you bs, where did i say i didn't vote ?

Ooops my mistake and my apologies. Sometimes I speed read and shoot from the hip.

Mellor · 01-12-2020 10:37pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I
Democracy is the tyranny of the majority. Hence many Communist states have "democratic" in their titles.
Constitutionalist Republicanism[what the US and Irl and supposedly most Western countries are based on] is the protection of the minority from the majority's tyranny.

Calling democracy a tyranny is an oxymoron. If a state governed by a tyrannt, then it’s straight forward to take them out of power - if you can’t its not democracy.
Constitutionalist Republicanism is also democracy (hence democratic republic), it’s also know as liberal democracy.

A communist state having democracy in the title doesn’t make them a democracy. And it’s probably more common for republic to be in the title.

Rows Grower · 01-12-2020 10:39pm

The Rifleman wrote: »

The system will never change. It's all a con. If you vote you are giving them a mandate to rule over you. The only way to remove that mandate and try to effect real change is if enough people don't vote. Then the political class has to admit the system is broken and start offering real alternatives to the people.

I've always voted and always complained. I will no longer vote and will still complain. I never consented to being ruled in this backward system by backward people. If you vote you can't complain because you get what you vote for.

Okay, I've read this a few times, slowly.

It makes no sense whatsoever, to me.

Mellor · 01-12-2020 10:43pm

The Rifleman wrote: »

The system will never change. It's all a con. If you vote you are giving them a mandate to rule over you. The only way to remove that mandate and try to effect real change is if enough people don't vote. Then the political class has to admit the system is broken and start offering real alternatives to the people.

I've always voted and always complained. I will no longer vote and will still complain. I never consented to being ruled in this backward system by backward people. If you vote you can't complain because you get what you vote for.

How does not voting elicit change? Outside of a one party one party state (example above).

Why can you not complain if you vote? You get what you vote for only applies if your guy wins. If you voted for the other guy then complain away.

01-12-2020 10:58pm

Mellor wrote: »

How does not voting elicit change? Outside of a one party one party state (example above).

Why can you not complain if you vote? You get what you vote for only applies if your guy wins. If you voted for the other guy then complain away.

I don't agree with how our political system is set up here. If you vote in this system nothing will change. It will always be the same parish pump political bs. When you don't vote in this system, the powers that be will see that things are broken politically in this country. There are other ways to run a country and the idea is that these ideas will be explored. Such as direct democracy or an executive government. I think it's obvious that our current system doesn't work.

So, by voting you continue the current bs that has always been. At least by not voting you have a chance of changing things.

tudderone · 01-12-2020 11:09pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Ooops my mistake and my apologies. Sometimes I speed read and shoot from the hip.

No probs

01-12-2020 11:09pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Okay, I've read this a few times, slowly.

It makes no sense whatsoever, to me.

It doesn't matter who you vote for, things stay the same. If no one votes then alternative systems will have to be proposed. Such as direct democracy for example. It's impossible to hold politicans accountable for their actions if they can screw the whole country but get re-elected because they look after their constituents.

As it is there will never be a way to vote for real change. Anyone that promises change are usually lying to get power.

We need a system that takes the power from the politicans and makes the citizen more accountable. Like a direct democracy type of system.

Rows Grower · 01-12-2020 11:18pm

The Rifleman wrote: »

It doesn't matter who you vote for, things stay the same. If no one votes then alternative systems will have to be proposed. Such as direct democracy for example. It's impossible to hold politicans accountable for their actions if they can screw the whole country but get re-elected because they look after their constituents.

As it is there will never be a way to vote for real change. Anyone that promises change are usually lying to get power.

We need a system that takes the power from the politicans and makes the citizen more accountable. Like a direct democracy type of system.

Okeydokey, I'm now retiring from this discussion with yourself.

01-12-2020 11:19pm

But, if people are happy to continue the Fianna Fail and Fine Gael dictatorship for another hundred years then there is no problem. And God help us if Sinn Fein ever get a piece of that action in the future.

01-12-2020 11:23pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Okeydokey, I'm now retiring from this discussion with yourself.

Ok, fair enough. But I have to ask. Do you think the bolded text you quoted is contradictory or something?

Mellor · 02-12-2020 12:57am

The Rifleman wrote: »

Ok, fair enough. But I have to ask. Do you think the bolded text you quoted is contradictory or something?

Not the poster above. But I don't think it's contradictory. However, I do think it's incorrect, along with another statements.

The Rifleman wrote: »

I don't agree with how our political system is set up here. If you vote in this system nothing will change. It will always be the same parish pump political bs. When you don't vote in this system, the powers that be will see that things are broken politically in this country. There are other ways to run a country and the idea is that these ideas will be explored. Such as direct democracy or an executive government. I think it's obvious that our current system doesn't work.

So, by voting you continue the current bs that has always been. At least by not voting you have a chance of changing things.

Firstly the idea that nothing changes via democracy is a false. I can think of many examples within my lifetime, obvious examples being referendums.
In terms of Government, there are many lunatics who never get near a seat, that's also down to the voice of the people.

You keep saying not voting will elicited change. But haven't explained how you think that will actually happen. There has been 3 general elections in the last decade. In each, over 1million didn't vote. 1.3m in the most recent.
If what you are saying were true, why is there no radical change.

I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting an executive government, as opposed to the current one.

tudderone · 02-12-2020 1:02am

Mellor wrote: »

Not the poster above. But I don't think it's contradictory. However, I do think it's incorrect, along with another statements.

Firstly the idea that nothing changes via democracy is a false. I can think of many examples within my lifetime, obvious examples being referendums.
In terms of Government, there are many lunatics who never get near a seat, that's also down to the voice of the people.

You keep saying not voting will elicited change. But haven't explained how you think that will actually happen. There has been 3 general elections in the last decade. In each, over 1million didn't vote. 1.3m in the most recent.
If what you are saying were true, why is there no radical change.

I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting an executive government, as opposed to the current one.

It landed us with some right chancers mind.......:rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0wAbQUMfWs

02-12-2020 9:25am

Mellor wrote: »

Not the poster above. But I don't think it's contradictory. However, I do think it's incorrect, along with another statements.

Firstly the idea that nothing changes via democracy is a false. I can think of many examples within my lifetime, obvious examples being referendums.
In terms of Government, there are many lunatics who never get near a seat, that's also down to the voice of the people.

You keep saying not voting will elicited change. But haven't explained how you think that will actually happen. There has been 3 general elections in the last decade. In each, over 1million didn't vote. 1.3m in the most recent.
If what you are saying were true, why is there no radical change.

I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting an executive government, as opposed to the current one.

I know I say political system, but I mean voting in the general election. SSM and abortion referendums have obviously created real change in our laws although it took a long time to happen because they weren't important to politicians.

Voter turnout in the last election was 62% which is quite high. If it was 10 or 15% it would be a national crisis and something would have to change. It would be all over the media. It couldn't be ignored.

What I mean by executive government is that people stand for Taoisach and we all get to vote for them. So more people have a say in who gets that role instead of one constituency as it currently is. You can argue that they only get that role if other constituencies vote for their party, but I find that a lot vote based on local issues as opposed to national ones. For example, people voting for Michael Lowry.

Just my thoughts on it. I personally can't see things changing in any meaningful way as it is. I don't expect people to stop voting either, as most are conditioned to do so. It feels like the electorate get codded every time someone makes a promise.

I choose not to participate anymore. I'm not voting for Fianna Fail/Fine Gael or socialists. So that means I have no one to vote for.

Grizzly 45 · 02-12-2020 2:27pm

The trouble with direct democracy is; you will get voter fatigue from never-ending propositions and then lose out on a vital bit of legislation.
A certain county in California is a good example where it held a proposition on keeping domestic fowl in urban back gardens and gay marriage being abolished.
By the end of the day, hens had gained valuable living space and gays were prohibited from getting married in LA county[?]
It probably would work here but it would need some sort of minimum signatures petition of verifiable sigs as well of Irish residents.

Thing is...Why would the Irish system change?
It suits those in power and us who vote complete and utter gobdaws, mostly former school teachers it seems... into power, so they might hopefully "fix da roads!" or whatever in our locality to secure their power base.As "all politics is local" in Ireland,[but definitely not on the EUSSR stage] and if the one gobdaw cant fix the roads,we'll vote the other amadahn from the other crowd instead in the hope they'll fix it next time.

So if we want a change we have to stop looking beyond our potholes, broken street lights and other petty stuff and start demanding change on a national level to fix the system on a local and national level.

b

ut I find that a lot vote based on local issues as opposed to national ones. For example, people voting for Michael Lowry.

QED
Man has N Tipp GAA in his pocket...Need a strip and gear for the under 12 s of Killyweewee or a new pitch someplace?Micks the man for that.
Same as the flatcap dynasty of Kerry looks after their voters extremely well[and fair play to them too] and has a secure power base that wont ever shift.

It feels like the electorate get codded every time someone makes a promise.

Proably why there is so much venom directed against Trump.He actually tried to keep his election promises and showed up a bunch of professional politicians.

Feisar · 02-12-2020 2:35pm

I get your disillusionment with the current setup. It's also galling that at the first chance the incumbents get their noses stuck into the trough. The amount of brother/sisters/husbands/wives on committees is mental. Also I don't know that politics effect us that much. That's open to debate I know but would we have had the last crash if there had been a Labour government in as opposed to FF? Of course we would. As a small open economy on the periphery of Europe we are always going to be swayed by the prevailing winds.
Also things are generally pretty good in this country, yes there are issues, healthcare and not just hospital beds, services for anyone with a disability are abysmal. Having said that while we were in the depts of a famine the underground opened in the UK. Not trying to make this an Irish/English thing, however the colonial countries do have that jump start having robbed half the world of it's wealth.

Grizzly 45 · 02-12-2020 2:56pm

Feisar wrote: »

I get your disillusionment with the current setup. It's also galling that at the first chance the incumbents get their noses stuck into the trough. The amount of brother/sisters/husbands/wives on committees is mental. Also I don't know that politics effect us that much.

That's open to debate I know but would we have had the last crash if there had been a Labour government in as opposed to FF? Of course we would. As a small open economy on the periphery of Europe, we are always going to be swayed by the prevailing winds.

We actually were in better shape than many. Our National debt was well within manageable levels. But when it had private banking deb tacked onto it, that's when Aughrim was lost! Anywhere else the banks would have been sunk straight off. But because bankers and politicians move in the same circles and everyone here has their hands in everyone else's pockets and /or on other parts of their anatomy. Those parts could be pulled, very hard! if need be by the banks. Elections are fierce expensive things to contest, and the aul church gate collection won't cut it anymore.Sp are you going to let your main election source of income fail???...

tudderone · 02-12-2020 3:04pm

Bail-out ehhh ? What I remember about the bail-out is people on the steps of government buildings telling barefaced ones :rolleyes:, The IMF lot were actually in the building behind them.

Blood pressure rising across ireland in 3.....2......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19KotloFVxA

Mellor · 03-12-2020 12:10am

The Rifleman wrote: »

I know I say political system, but I mean voting in the general election. SSM and abortion referendums have obviously created real change in our laws although it took a long time to happen because they weren't important to politicians.

I understand you were talking about the GE specifically. But they are intrinsically link to the overall system. Can't have a benelavent dictator ship, and retain referenda on important issues.

Voter turnout in the last election was 62% which is quite high. If it was 10 or 15% it would be a national crisis and something would have to change. It would be all over the media. It couldn't be ignored.

Yes, 10 % would be insanely low and would be a national issue.
In order for that to happen, there would need to be a massive co-ordinated effort and an additional 1.5m voters to abstain.
As far as I am aware, that is not a current movement. So by simply not voting yourself, you aren't really getting any closer.

By all means, don't vote. Your choice. But I would be consider it as having any are making an impact. In order for that to happen, you'd have to not vote, and campaigner for others to join you.

What I mean by executive government is that people stand for Taoisach and we all get to vote for them. So more people have a say in who gets that role instead of one constituency as it currently is. You can argue that they only get that role if other constituencies vote for their party, but I find that a lot vote based on local issues as opposed to national ones. For example, people voting for Michael Lowry.

My confusion stemmed from the fact that the current government is elected, and has executive power. It's not one constituency that decides who the Taoiseach, it's all constituencies collectively. That's not an argument to be made, it's a basic fact pf the parliamentary system.
If the taoiseach was elected nationally, directly. The dail/Seanad still be elected by the current system.

I agree that many parts of the country think very locally. Look at the Healy Raes in Kerry. Woeful stuff. But that's the people in Kerry's choice to make.

I choose not to participate anymore. I'm not voting for Fianna Fail/Fine Gael or socialists. So that means I have no one to vote for.

If you are removing everything left of centre, plus the two main centre-right parites - then sure there isn't much left.
Only, Aontú or Human Dignity Alliance. Slim pickings.

Rows Grower · 03-12-2020 12:49am

Mellor wrote: »

I understand you were talking about the GE specifically. But they are intrinsically link to the overall system. Can't have a benelavent dictator ship, and retain referenda on important issues.

Yes, 10 % would be insanely low and would be a national issue.
In order for that to happen, there would need to be a massive co-ordinated effort and an additional 1.5m voters to abstain.
As far as I am aware, that is not a current movement. So by simply not voting yourself, you aren't really getting any closer.

By all means, don't vote. Your choice. But I would be consider it as having any are making an impact. In order for that to happen, you'd have to not vote, and campaigner for others to join you.

My confusion stemmed from the fact that the current government is elected, and has executive power. It's not one constituency that decides who the Taoiseach, it's all constituencies collectively. That's not an argument to be made, it's a basic fact pf the parliamentary system.
If the taoiseach was elected nationally, directly. The dail/Seanad still be elected by the current system.

I agree that many parts of the country think very locally. Look at the Healy Raes in Kerry. Woeful stuff. But that's the people in Kerry's choice to make.

If you are removing everything left of centre, plus the two main centre-right parites - then sure there isn't much left.
Only, Aontú or Human Dignity Alliance. Slim pickings.

I always find it amusing when people that have no clue whatsoever about how effective as politicians the Healy Raes are think it is so intelligent to ridicule them and the people who voted for them.

You mentioned slim pickings, who would you choose over them that ran in Kerry in the last general election and why?

Mellor · 03-12-2020 5:24am

Rows Grower wrote: »

I always find it amusing when people that have no clue whatsoever about how effective as politicians the Healy Raes are think it is so intelligent to ridicule them and the people who voted for them.

You mentioned slim pickings, who would you choose over them that ran in Kerry in the last general election and why?

I think you've misunderstood the point.
The previous poster made a point that many people think very locally, even in general elections. I pointed to the Healy Raes as a perfect example of that. They position themselves very much as local politicians. Historically that have traded their parliamentary support in return for local funding. I think it's hard to disagree with the idea that's their MO.

But I haven't ridiculed anyone who voted for the Healy Raes however. People are entitle to vote for whoever they chose. If they feel that local matters are their prime interest. Then, that's who they'd should vote for.
Although a cabinet entirely local would be a disaster.

I've never given their policies much consideration to be completely honest. But it's probably a mistake to refer to them singularly. Michael certain seems unbeatable in any election. And I believe he is quite a successful in business/property, political negotiations.
Danny clearly not as solid. He slipped down in the recent election behind Sinn Féin and Fine Gael. And his drink drive permit idea was well intentioned, a little self serving, but not exactly the actions of a shrewd political operator.

Slim pickings comment was in relation to supporting political parties in national matter. The Rifleman's party criteria eliminates the majority. Leaving only Human Dignity Alliance and Aontu. I don't believe Human Dignity Alliance had a candidate in Kerry. Aontu would be the only option - which may be out too depending on his definitions.

yubabill · 03-12-2020 7:37am

I've been following the US election closely for the last month and even if you're not a Trump fan, you should give him a fair shake and watch this video from his official youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=720O_yBLrTs

The only thing he forgot was the US Postal subcontracted truck driver who swore an affidavit the other day saying he drove 24 pallets of mail-in votes from New York to Pennsylvania (why would votes need to travel across two states to be counted?)

tudderone · 03-12-2020 12:33pm

yubabill wrote: »

I've been following the US election closely for the last month and even if you're not a Trump fan, you should give him a fair shake and watch this video from his official youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=720O_yBLrTs

The only thing he forgot was the US Postal subcontracted truck driver who swore an affidavit the other day saying he drove 24 pallets of mail-in votes from New York to Pennsylvania (why would votes need to travel across two states to be counted?)

The democrats were screaming "Russian interference" when Trump won the election 4 years ago. Now they are saying the election is as pure as the driven snow now they have won.

tudderone · 03-12-2020 2:44pm

Adolf Hitler is back in Africa ! Just won an election in Namibia. I have to say the plastic surgeons have done him proud, he looks great for 131.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9013447/Politician-named-Adolf-Hitler-wins-election-Namibia.html

Munsterlad102 · 03-12-2020 4:51pm

Mellor wrote: »

If you are removing everything left of centre, plus the two main centre-right parites - then sure there isn't much left.
Only, Aontú or Human Dignity Alliance. Slim pickings.

There are a few other right wing parties such as Renua and IFP but the biggest of them and most promising would be the National Party.

Grizzly 45 · 03-12-2020 8:08pm

tudderone wrote: »

Adolf Hitler is back in Africa ! Just won an election in Namibia. I have to say the plastic surgeons have done him proud, he looks great for 131.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9013447/Politician-named-Adolf-Hitler-wins-election-Namibia.html

Typical DM understatements of facts about Namibia. A "small group still speak German" It's only about 33% of the population, along with Afrikaans and up to 1990 both were official languages:rolleyes:
Despite its colonial history, which was pretty mild compared to the other powers of the time, it's the only country Germany easily accepts as dual citizenship.
Great place to go hunting too,if you are into long-range deer stalking here, this is the place for you.Rare if ever to get shots on game under 200 meters out there

tudderone · 03-12-2020 8:20pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Typical DM understatements of facts about Namibia. A "small group still speak German" It's only about 33% of the population, along with Afrikaans and up to 1990 both were official languages:rolleyes:
Despite its colonial history, which was pretty mild compared to the other powers of the time, it's the only country Germany easily accepts as dual citizenship.
Great place to go hunting too,if you are into long-range deer stalking here, this is the place for you.Rare if ever to get shots on game under 200 meters out there

Mossad must be kicking themselves, old adolf blacked up and duped the lot of them.

Grizzly 45 · 03-12-2020 9:54pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

There are a few other right wing parties such as Renua and IFP but the biggest of them and most promising would be the National Party.

And all of them are just as bats as their Left-wing opponents. :rolleyes:

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