Tenants made multiple changes to the property

sbsquarepants · 09-10-2018 2:04pm

Gone where?
Dumped?

skallywag · 09-10-2018 3:14pm

pasquale83 wrote: »

well, the washing machine and the oven are gone...the rest is in the attic.

The onus is on the tenant to leave your property in the same state as which it was rented, hence I would be seriously pissed off if a tenant just dumped such goods!

The new goods which the tenant purchased are their property, and not yours.

I think you need to have a serious discussion with them. Putting their own stuff in would be fine with me (if they let me know about it) but they must then be able to put the original equipment back when they leave.

the_syco · 09-10-2018 4:32pm

pasquale83 wrote: »

And I don't understand why they don't just pay rent, communicate with me and live an happy life.

Because they see you as a pushover, and decided to walk over you.

pasquale83 wrote: »

well, the washing machine and the oven are gone...the rest is in the attic.

When they move, I'd say that they'll be bringing their white goods with them, and they'll put substandard crap behind them.

Going forward, I'd say they'll replace what they like, and either demand payment later or take it with them when they leave as I doubt they'll leave items that they spent 100's on behind.

I see trouble ahead.

4ensic15 · 09-10-2018 7:22pm

the_syco wrote: »

Because they see you as a pushover, and decided to walk over you.

When they move, I'd say that they'll be bringing their white goods with them, and they'll put substandard crap behind them.

Going forward, I'd say they'll replace what they like, and either demand payment later or take it with them when they leave as I doubt they'll leave items that they spent 100's on behind.

I see trouble ahead.

When they move they will leave all sorts of junk. They are irresponsible and nothing will be replaced. The deposit will be well spent and more. The only issue is going to be how much the arrears bill and the repair bills are going to be. The o/p is sitting on his hands doing nothing.

09-10-2018 10:17pm

I think you need to get this rental back on an even keel and fast.

The tenant needs to understand that these modifications are not things that he can do without express permission. He must account for the removed white goods and undertake to leave all replaced items in the building when the rental period is up or else replace them, to your satisfaction.
Any building works should be inspected by somebody you nominate and put right if necessary.
And of course a key should be handed over, instantly (take an original and get a copy yourself rather than being fobbed off with excuses)
All this to be put in writing, preferably through your solicitor (but do the meeting yourself first as the solicitor will never get things done in time).

If you are not completely happy that they understand and fully intend to comply before the six moonths are up, then serve notice.

This could be all a misunderstanding, especially if the renters are foreign, in which case they will bend over backwards to do things right.

On the other hand if they intend to continue in the same vein, then its only a matter of time before they start withholding rent for imagined issues and you will have a devil of a job to deal with them.

Sleeper12 · 10-10-2018 8:51am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The guy is a builder. His income fluctuates. When trouble hits, the answer to your claims for rent will be "look at all we spent on the house". you will be strung along for months with promises that a big payment is coming When you go to the RTB all this work will be costed at thousands in an attempt to resist your claim.I know a landlord who ended up having the exaggerated price of a crap laminate floor taken from his award. The tenant claimed there was a filthy carpet there (untrue). You are now staring into the abyss. It is much better to get rd of a tenant like that before things get any worse. If they want to play Bob the Builder, they should buy their own house.

If the guy is a genuine builder then hes on bloody good money & guaranteed work for the next three years most likely at over 1000 euro per week

My worry is OP also describes him as a handyman. A builder will build you a house or extension. A handyman will hang the curtain poles when the house is finished. There is a very big difference between the skills, quality of work & income of a builder & a handyman

4ensic15 · 10-10-2018 9:05am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If the guy is a genuine builder then hes on bloody good money & guaranteed work for the next three years most likely at over 1000 euro per week

My worry is OP also describes him as a handyman. A builder will build you a house or extension. A handyman will hang the curtain poles when the house is finished. There is a very big difference between the skills, quality of work & income of a builder & a handyman

Builders get injured, sometimes they are not paid for a job. There is no certainty where builders are involved.

Sleeper12 · 10-10-2018 9:24am

4ensic15 wrote: »

Builders get injured, sometimes they are not paid for a job. There is no certainty where builders are involved.

Jasus will you stop. Builders have something called "insurance" against accidents on the job. Anyone can take ill. The main difference is self employed will go to work ill or not. Non self employed take sick days. I'm working 36 years & never a sick day. I worked the morning of my own wedding. This is what self employed people do regularly

Want an extension on your house? It'll take 10 weeks. You pay 10 percent per week as the job goes on. The most you can stiff the builder is 10 percent. Getting stiffed is called slippage. It's built into his price. All tradesmen, shops, factories in fact all business build slippage into their prices. It's standard business practice

I was just showing the difference between real builders & handymen

4ensic15 · 10-10-2018 10:07am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Jasus will you stop. Builders have something called "insurance" against accidents on the job. Anyone can take ill. The main difference is self employed will go to work ill or not. Non self employed take sick days. I'm working 36 years & never a sick day. I worked the morning of my own wedding. This is what self employed people do regularly

Want an extension on your house? It'll take 10 weeks. You pay 10 percent per week as the job goes on. The most you can stiff the builder is 10 percent. Getting stiffed is called slippage. It's built into his price. All tradesmen, shops, factories in fact all business build slippage into their prices. It's standard business practice

I was just showing the difference between real builders & handymen

Most sickness insurance policies only pay out after a month and then only a small sum. Not everyone is as mean as you, working on their wedding day. Many a builder has been stiffed for more than 10%.

Sleeper12 · 10-10-2018 10:21am

4ensic15 wrote: »

Most sickness insurance policies only pay out after a month and then only a small sum. Not everyone is as mean as you, working on their wedding day. Many a builder has been stiffed for more than 10%.

Lets get this straight. Self employed are less likely to be ill & miss work compared to non self employed. They take less holidays & work longer days & longer weeks.Anyone in the trades are working 6 days a week right now & will be for a number of years.

A genuine builder Doesn't even have to work to earn money. Builders rarely actually do any of the building work. Small builders come on the job to work the digger for a few hours as his laborer aren't trained or to do a bit a welding or specialized job. If you get a building company to build you a house or extension you will notice how little the builder actually does or even how little time he is on your property. The laborer does the laboring, The brick layer lays the bricks, Carpenter does the woodwork, Electrician does the electrical work, plumber does the plumbing. What does the builder do? He comes on the job gives orders for the days work. He is the organizer on the site.

I think you are confusing what a builder does & what a handyman does.

4ensic15 · 10-10-2018 7:39pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Lets get this straight. Self employed are less likely to be ill & miss work compared to non self employed. They take less holidays & work longer days & longer weeks.Anyone in the trades are working 6 days a week right now & will be for a number of years.

A genuine builder Doesn't even have to work to earn money. Builders rarely actually do any of the building work. Small builders come on the job to work the digger for a few hours as his laborer aren't trained or to do a bit a welding or specialized job. If you get a building company to build you a house or extension you will notice how little the builder actually does or even how little time he is on your property. The laborer does the laboring, The brick layer lays the bricks, Carpenter does the woodwork, Electrician does the electrical work, plumber does the plumbing. What does the builder do? He comes on the job gives orders for the days work. He is the organizer on the site.

I think you are confusing what a builder does & what a handyman does.

If that tenant was a builder running sites he wouldn't be renting a house. Furthermore, if he carries on the way he is with the o/p ignoring his contractual and statutory obligations he wouldn't last long as a builder either.

Sleeper12 · 10-10-2018 7:50pm

4ensic15 wrote:

If that tenant was a builder running sites he wouldn't be renting a house. Furthermore, if he carries on the way he is with the o/p ignoring his contractual and statutory obligations he wouldn't last long as a builder either.

This was my point in the first place. He sounds like a handyman and not a builder.

A handyman might not have the knowledge to install a stove

4ensic15 · 10-10-2018 7:53pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This was my point in the first place. He sounds like a handyman and not a builder.

A handyman might not have the knowledge to install a stove

He was described as a builder/handyman. Whether he has the knowledge to install a stove or not, he is a menace.

Sleeper12 · 10-10-2018 8:01pm

4ensic15 wrote:

He was described as a builder/handyman. Whether he has the knowledge to install a stove or not, he is a menace.

Builder & handyman are two totally different things. It'd be like believing that someone flying a kite is an airline pilot

4ensic15 · 10-10-2018 8:05pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Builder & handyman are two totally different things. It'd be like believing that someone flying a kite is an airline pilot

Builder has a meaning you are giving it but in the context in which the o/p uses it clearly means someone with some skills. What the standard of those skills is, could be anything from skilled (unlikely) to poor.

goat2 · 11-10-2018 11:04am

BoneIdol wrote: »

Sounds like they have upgraded the house off their own bat. You should consider a months free rent or a discount at least. Fair is fair.

I used to rent, and when I had a tenant in indefinitely, which was 7 yrs, they made loads of changes, all for the better, and when they were going, I gave them back half of the cost of the big ticket items, . like fridges, washing machines, and any other good upgrade they did, was delighted they did it, as sometimes you don't really realise what is needed to make a place comfortable unless you live in it, the stove is a huge advantage for you in years when you get it back, I would offer at least the price of that back, they have done good for you, and as for the key,
You are always entitled to have a key that opens a door to your property

goat2 · 11-10-2018 11:17am

pasquale83 wrote: »

I don't think they will move easily. They've been there for just few months and making all those changes they are sending the message that they want to stay long term. What can I legally do if the don' want to move? Can I give a solicitor a power of attorney to act on my behalf and sell the house, getting rid of them in the meanwhile? I am loosing sleep on this tbh

My worry is indeed on the liability for the works they've done - it is on me

Just don't know what to do, I am very worried this situation can go very bad. What happens if they stop paying rent? Can I evict them easily?

I am thinking to put an estate agent, but they don't care at all on what is written in the contract and to my words. Would they care to an estate agents?

Have you sat down and spoken to them, have you not said that they should have asked for permission, did you ask for references before you took deposit, and followed up those references with a phone call to the refree, these are all things I used to do before I would take a deposit, looking into their history, gives a good indication of what and who you are dealing with
May be there is much ado about nothing, I would sit down and have the chat with them now,
They may not have realised that they would have to ask permission since they are staying for the long haul and will have the value out of them in that time,

Graces7 · 11-10-2018 11:34am

goat2 wrote: »

Have you sat down and spoken to them, have you not said that they should have asked for permission, did you ask for references before you took deposit, and followed up those references with a phone call to the refree, these are all things I used to do before I would take a deposit, looking into their history, gives a good indication of what and who you are dealing with
May be there is much ado about nothing, I would sit down and have the chat with them now,
They may not have realised that they would have to ask permission since they are staying for the long haul and will have the value out of them in that time,

at last some common sense and reason... Do the tenants have any idea they are being torn apart by strangers?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 11-10-2018 11:49am

First thing OP, ignore the likes of 4ensic15 & Emilio Wooden Undershorts as the nonsensical negativity helps nobody. It's all based on if's buts and maybes. They haven't a clue what they are talking about.

This thread is a real indicator regarding how draconian and outdated our renting laws are. The tenants are showing they care to live there, they are making changes to make the house more homely. If they are paying rent every month then the only problem I see is that they didn't mention it to you first. They probably thought it's better to seek forgiveness than ask permission. Why would you not want them in your home long term? Why do you think that the ownership of the house will pass to them? What magic do you foresee? You are talking about selling just to get rid of them? That sounds like a serious overreaction to be honest. You are getting worked up over nothing OP.

We really need to adopt a system found in many European countries, to protect the landlord and tenants better. Our current system is ridiculous.

- landscapes the garden - To what degree? Did they stick in an orchard or just a flower bed?
- added a tap in the garden making a hole through the wall - This shouldn't have been done without your permission. It is great for gardening though.
- added a wooden stove in the sitting room - Has the building been altered? A wooden stove is fantastic and depending on the model, super efficient.
- changed the main door keys - You should have a copy.
- painted the walls - Why is this an issue?
- changed the washing machine, fridge and electric oven - Have they thrown out the old items? Have they made any changes to the building to install the items? If not, then what's the problem here? If they have replaced items, that's something that needs to be discussed.

the_syco · 11-10-2018 12:38pm

Karla Ambitious Scorecard wrote: »

- changed the washing machine, fridge and electric oven - Have they thrown out the old items? Have they made any changes to the building to install the items? If not, then what's the problem here? If they have replaced items, that's something that needs to be discussed.

They have thrown out the fridge and washing machine, and replaced them with their own, as per

pasquale83 wrote: »

well, the washing machine and the oven are gone...the rest is in the attic.

And unless the OP has seen what is in the attic, I'd be doubtful that there is anything put there at all.

As the tenants have lived in Ireland for the last 10 years, they would have a fair idea what isn't on, and for them to replace white goods with their own (and disposed of the old ones) without prior consultation with the landlord; I'm guessing they have done this before. I'd also wonder if said white goods were brought over from their previous residence?

CalRobert · 11-10-2018 2:27pm

Considering the utter pieces of garbage every place I've ever seen for rent has for a hob, I hope your tenants were wise enough to install an induction.

Is it possible they simply replaced goods which weren't up to snuff? After a few times telling the landlord about broken things and getting no response for six months I just started fixing/upgrading everything on my own. I suspect we're both happier this way. Maybe they figured your time is too valuable to pester you.

Graces7 · 11-10-2018 2:41pm

CalRobert wrote: »

Considering the utter pieces of garbage every place I've ever seen for rent has for a hob, I hope your tenants were wise enough to install an induction.

Is it possible they simply replaced goods which weren't up to snuff? After a few times telling the landlord about broken things and getting no response for six months I just started fixing/upgrading everything on my own. I suspect we're both happier this way. Maybe they figured your time is too valuable to pester you.

I did the same for the same reasons.

dmcguq10 · 11-10-2018 5:35pm

I moved into a property last year, the landlord accepted HAP. I signed for 2 years and was under the impression that I would be in the property longer than 2 years. The house needed alot of work done. Luckily a family member is a "handyman". The kitchen was in bits so I sourced a second hand kitchen and fitted it myself. I also added storage features to the underneath of the stairs as well as getting someone to paint the outside walls and fencing. I also got someone to cut the garden and deweed front patio regularly. I also paid for blinds for all the windows in the house as well as a cooker, extractor fan fridge and washing machine. Just a few days ago I got notice that the landlord would be moving back into the property and I have 6 weeks to vacate the property. This came as such a shock and suprise. Needless to say I am very dissapointed and out of pocket. Trying to find a unfurnished property to rent is near impossible. If I could give these tenants advice it would be do not make any cosmetic renovations to the property as its just not worth it.

goat2 · 11-10-2018 5:45pm

pasquale83 wrote: »

well, the washing machine and the oven are gone...the rest is in the attic.

You said it was indefinite time, they expect to be there a few yrs, so it is in their own interest to have the machines they would like to have, how old was that washing machine and oven, maybe if they are 10 yrs it is time to say bye to them, you can have a conversation with these people,
It is my guess, they are only making the place a better place for full time living

kaji · 11-10-2018 6:53pm

I only read the first page of this thread, but as the owner of a house- I would not be happy if they made all of those changes. I watch a lot of those "nightmare tenant" programmes and see a lot of people shouting abuse that they won't move out cos they think they have a right to stay in the property because of changes they made. What reason could they possibly have to change the locks? That's ridiculous. I'd evict them before they are there for 6 months, <SNIP>.

Pkiernan · 11-10-2018 6:59pm

Next time I rent a car I'll get it remapped to double the horsepower. How could Avis have any issues with that?

LirW · 11-10-2018 7:11pm

OP, I really think you're being a little bit paranoid. Granted, not everything they did was okay so there's definitely wrong on their side but as you can see you can discuss this infinitely and nothing's going to get better.

You need to meet up with them asap and line a few things out:
- you wanna be notified of changes in the future otherwise they break the lease and you'll serve notice.
- you want the fitted stove checked out by a professional company on his cost and you want to be notified by the company that everything is alright and all of that rather pronto or you'll serve notice.
- make an agreement about the appliances since they disposed of some of them.
- all changes need to be returned to how it was before subject to another meeting with you before they move out or you'll keep their deposit.

I assume you properly vetted them when they moved in.

Not that I wanna step on your feet and call you names but a lot of rentals around the country are absolute ratholes because landlords aren't bothered to replace anything and expect their tenants to pay good money to sleep on a 20 year old mattress.
Generally when it's people's own stuff they'll look after it.

Since they're not Irish it could very well be that they simply weren't thinking that it's a big deal.
I'm from continental Europe and I rented there, I grew up in rentals and the way it worked was always the same. You gotta do all non-structural changes you want, you can paint, put shelves up the wall etc and is lined out in the contract that you can do all these changes but you need to give the apartment back with all holes closed and the walls painted white and broom-clean. Everything beyond that, so everything that's fixed in place of some sorts needs the okay from the landlord.
Inspection at the end of tenancy and they'll go through everything with you and you get your deposit when they're satisfied with the condition.

They might have rented from another non-Irish landlord before so never had to deal with one or from a big professional landlord that was cool with it all.

Sit them down, talk to them and make your position absolutely clear. If the tenants look after the place then that's what you want really.

Caranica · 11-10-2018 9:06pm

LirW wrote: »

OP, I really think you're being a little bit paranoid. Granted, not everything they did was okay so there's definitely wrong on their side but as you can see you can discuss this infinitely and nothing's going to get better.

You need to meet up with them asap and line a few things out:
- you wanna be notified of changes in the future otherwise they break the lease and you'll serve notice

Not notified of changes, permission requested for changes, it's a huge difference. Having followed this thread from the start my instinct would be to end the tenancy. They've taken so many liberties with your property so far, without permission. Who knows what's next. You can't go around making major changes without permission of the owner. Simple as. Painting is fine but a stove and outdoor tap materially alter the structure of the building. As for taking out your white goods and discarding some of them, that's theft!

11-10-2018 9:06pm

dmcguq10 wrote: »

Trying to find a unfurnished property to rent is near impossible.

Seems so, even though it should suit both landlords and long term tenants.

Any ideas why this is?

I did hear that it was illegal to rent unfurnished here, but I assumed that this was an urban myth... ?

the_syco · 12-10-2018 2:18am

dmcguq10 wrote: »

If I could give these tenants advice it would be do not make any cosmetic renovations to the property as its just not worth it.

Don't upgrade what you don't own.

Deleted User wrote: »

I did hear that it was illegal to rent unfurnished here, but I assumed that this was an urban myth... ?

Myth. Have seen unfurnished lets. It's just that the Irish expect the place to be furnished.

Tenants made multiple changes to the property

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