Guess what Mad_Lad got this time?

Patser · 12-01-2019 12:46am

oodles19 wrote: »

Ah! So the i3 can charge from AC and DC chargers? This is really an element I should have checked out in advance, the use case for the car being bought is mostly pootling about within range and back, but you never know. The AC cable wouldn't be standard then?

I got caught with this too. All blurb will talk of fast charging, and how you can charge in 30 minutes etc (not just BMW i3) but vast amount of your charging will be AC (about 4 hours from flat - again as Mad Lad mentions above. Your car will charge quickly to about 80% then slow down for last 20%. Takes pretty much even time for both)

So granny cable is standard, but incredibly slow. It's there for emergencies as you can plug in to any 3 pin socket anywhere. So visiting someone else and staying overnight- Grand.

AC charging - your home charger will be this, as are 90% of public chargers. You'll need an AC cable for this but very good chance your car will have it already as it's essential. You also have an option to buy a tethered home charger - ie cable is built on.

DC charging - great if you're in a rush and on a long trip. 30 minutes will give you 80% and get you on the way. But those charge points still uncommon and getting increasingly popular (as in expect queues). Also DC charging to full all the time can hurt your battery (newest Leaf is getting crucified for this)

So ask whoever your buying off Is it DC ready (extra little sockets) - handy to have. And how many cables are with it. Hopefully 2, as a good AC cable will cost few hundred euro. But if guess it'll be there as previous owner would have needed it.

oodles19 · 12-01-2019 12:57am

Patser wrote: »

oodles19 wrote: »

Ah! So the i3 can charge from AC and DC chargers? This is really an element I should have checked out in advance, the use case for the car being bought is mostly pootling about within range and back, but you never know. The AC cable wouldn't be standard then?

I got caught with this too. All blurb will talk of fast charging, and how you can charge in 30 minutes etc (not just BMW i3) but vast amount of your charging will be AC (about 4 hours from flat - again as Mad Lad mentions above. Your car will charge quickly to about 80% then slow down for last 20%. Takes pretty much even time for both)

So granny cable is standard, but incredibly slow. It's there for emergencies as you can plug in to any 3 pin socket anywhere. So visiting someone else and staying overnight- Grand.

AC charging - your home charger will be this, as are 90% of public chargers. You'll need an AC cable for this but very good chance your car will have it already as it's essential. You also have an option to buy a tethered home charger - ie cable is built on.

DC charging - great if you're in a rush and on a long trip. 30 minutes will give you 80% and get you on the way. But those charge points still uncommon and getting increasingly popular (as in expect queues). Also DC charging to full all the time can hurt your battery (newest Leaf is getting crucified for this)

So ask whoever your buying off Is it DC ready (extra little sockets) - handy to have. And how many cables are with it. Hopefully 2, as a good AC cable will cost few hundred euro. But if guess it'll be there as previous owner would have needed it.

Great info this! I didn't look into the public charging/charging in general element at all really tbh, because the car will be used for short hops or trips that can handle there and back within range handily. There is the very odd time where a longer trip from Clare to Mayo or Kilkenny might be called for, to a normal home without any EV setup, but I figured the granny cable would suffice for that as the car would be staying overnight (+15 hours), you reckon I should be looking for an AV cable in addition to the granny cable? I'll be going over to the UK to look at cars in the next week or so, so it would be good info to have either way!

Patser · 12-01-2019 1:02am

The rex system is great for those longer trips, absolutely ideal.

As for AC cable, yes definitely ask for one you'll need it at some time. What time of home charger are you looking at?

oodles19 · 12-01-2019 1:10am

Patser wrote: »

The rex system is great for those longer trips, absolutely ideal.

As for AC cable, yes definitely ask for one you'll need it at some time. What time of home charger are you looking at?

It's a 162+ 94ah Rex I'll be looking to import, purely as a "just in case" cos' I'll be getting the phonecall if she runs out of juice! Haven't looked at type of home charger yet, there's an outside regular socket that will do for now where the car will be kept as is. I know there's a €600 grant for an upgraded charger which I'd be looking to go for, what would you recommend yourself?

Thanks again for all this info by the way, this kind of stuff is invaluable to noobs like myself!

DrPhilG · 12-01-2019 2:03am

Patser wrote: »

Also DC charging to full all the time can hurt your battery (newest Leaf is getting crucified for this)

Sorry I have to disagree there.

The 40kwh Leaf is getting slaughtered due to #rapidgate, which means that on multiple fast charges in the same journey, the battery sometimes overheats and restricts the charging speed.

It has nothing to do with DC charging to full, it is all about DC charging 2 or more times on the same trip.

Besides, (1)unlike the Leaf, the i3 does actively cool the battery and (2)nobody in their right mind ever charges any EV to 100% on a fast charger because all cars taper the charge speed towards the top end so charging to 100% would be painfully slow. Like half an hour for the last 3% slow.

The various Leafs taper badly at anywhere from 80-90%, the Ioniq at 94%, the i3 at 93%.

DrPhilG · 12-01-2019 2:07am

In the off chance that you find a good deal on a car but the AC charging cable isn't included, either contact Phil at Electric Autos, or check the "Irish EV Owners buy and sell" page on Facebook. There is an official BMW one on there at the minute for sale.

oodles19 · 12-01-2019 2:16am

DrPhilG wrote: »

In the off chance that you find a good deal on a car but the AC charging cable isn't included, either contact Phil at Electric Autos, or check the "Irish EV Owners buy and sell" page on Facebook. There is an official BMW one on there at the minute for sale.

Thanks very much for that, it could be very useful! The plan was to wait until the Brexit vote on Tuesday, and see what it it does to Sterling rates (already favourable I know), then go over with Currancyfair or Transfermate already paid in. That said looking at trade prices on something like ukcarimports.ie has my head turned, plus the eternal desire for spec has me somewhat in a tizzy, didn't think of possibly additional cables at all!

DrPhilG · 12-01-2019 2:28am

Speak to Phil in Electric Autos, he can source a car to match your spec and will sort out the import process too, for not much more (or maybe even less) than you could do it for yourself.

PS, don't forget that on a 162 REx you will face a VRT bill. I paid around €1600.

liamog · 12-01-2019 2:56am

DrPhilG wrote: »

It has nothing to do with DC charging to full, it is all about DC charging 2 or more times on the same trip.

This! These days its nigh on impossible to 100% charge an EV anyway. Most manufacturers build in a buffer at the top of the battery. The Ioniq for instance will only rapid charge to 94%. However the actual battery pack will be at 90%. Charging on AC regularly to 100% is likely to have to little to no effect on degradation for most cars.

12-01-2019 3:31am

Just to make some things clear on the I3 "94Ah"

The i3 94 Ah is supplied with a single phase charge lead which is good for up to 7 Kw.

My first post today or yesterday evening was in relation to AC "3 Phase" 11 Kw here in work but the 3 phase lead is not supplied with the car I had to buy it separate but I made the mistake of buying a 16 amp instead of a 32 amp, why does it matter ? because while the 16 amp provides full power on 3 phase , being 16 amp it will pull about 3.5 Kw max on single phase so that's something to watch, it's no big deal really because I can bring my single phase lead with me and both leads fit in the Frunk.

So the i3 charges at.

3.5 Kw AC
7.5 Kw AC
11 Kw 3 phase AC with separate 3 phase lead.

50 Kw DC.

11 Kw is dead handy, imagine all the older ev's with 3.5 Kw on AC ?

AC at 11 Kw or even 7 Kw can save a lot of time spent waiting at fast chargers.

While Carlow Town has no CCS or no CCS within 50 Km of me I can plug in in town and it's charged in 2.5 hrs to 10 - 90-95%. but even in 1 hr I can get a decent charge on 3 phase AC @ 11 Kw.

12-01-2019 3:36am

DrPhilG wrote: »

Sorry I have to disagree there.

The 40kwh Leaf is getting slaughtered due to #rapidgate, which means that on multiple fast charges in the same journey, the battery sometimes overheats and restricts the charging speed.

It has nothing to do with DC charging to full, it is all about DC charging 2 or more times on the same trip.

Besides, (1)unlike the Leaf, the i3 does actively cool the battery and (2)nobody in their right mind ever charges any EV to 100% on a fast charger because all cars taper the charge speed towards the top end so charging to 100% would be painfully slow. Like half an hour for the last 3% slow.

The various Leafs taper badly at anywhere from 80-90%, the Ioniq at 94%, the i3 at 93%.

Doesn't have to be multiple fast charges, throttling can begin on the first DC charge depending on the ambient temp and how hard the car is driven but I expect most of the time it's not a big issue for many people.

People forget cold charging can also be slow, slow as 30 Kw or perhaps lower if the battery is very cold even in the middle of an Irish Summer night time temps can get to 10 Deg C or below regularly and if the battery is 10 Deg C charging isn't going to be very fast for most if not all electric cars.

So cold and heat is an issue.

oodles19 · 12-01-2019 10:59am

DrPhilG wrote: »

Speak to Phil in Electric Autos, he can source a car to match your spec and will sort out the import process too, for not much more (or maybe even less) than you could do it for yourself.

PS, don't forget that on a 162 REx you will face a VRT bill. I paid around €1600.

I imported my own car so I'm familiar with VRT and the Revenue calculator etc. It's coming out at €1300/€1400 now, which makes sense with the new year ticking over, I might give him a bell just to see what he's coming in at!

There's a decent selection of cars at what I would call very low mileage, sub 20k, anything to be wary of with an i3 that hasn't been used much? Conversely, should I steer clear of cars with say 40k miles plus on them in your view?

DrPhilG · 12-01-2019 12:49pm

oodles19 wrote: »

There's a decent selection of cars at what I would call very low mileage, sub 20k, anything to be wary of with an i3 that hasn't been used much? Conversely, should I steer clear of cars with say 40k miles plus on them in your view?

My car had 4500km on it and was 2 years old. Still excellent overall battery condition. They seem perfectly happy at high mileage too. The attraction of a low mileage car for me is simply that selling again in 2-3 years, the car will still have nice low miles.

That said I didn't specifically seek out such a low mileage car, I was looking for a certain spec and this one fit.

oodles19 · 12-01-2019 3:14pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

oodles19 wrote: »

There's a decent selection of cars at what I would call very low mileage, sub 20k, anything to be wary of with an i3 that hasn't been used much? Conversely, should I steer clear of cars with say 40k miles plus on them in your view?

My car had 4500km on it and was 2 years old. Still excellent overall battery condition. They seem perfectly happy at high mileage too. The attraction of a low mileage car for me is simply that selling again in 2-3 years, the car will still have nice low miles.

That said I didn't specifically seek out such a low mileage car, I was looking for a certain spec and this one fit.

The car will be for my mother, she's rather morbidly calling it her "last car"! She wanted an automatic, higher driving position and comfort, she doesn't do many miles, so I suggested a 94ah Rex as being perfect really, with the bonus of the low overhead on it.

She only put a hair over 100k km on her last car in 10 years, so I wouldn't be scared of 30k miles or under for a 2 year old car

Patser · 12-01-2019 3:26pm

Since this appears to be best 'have i3 question' thread, I'll ask here.

Have my i3 almost a year now - pure BEV - and it has the little service due reminder pop up now and again.

Now it has a full BMW service history prior to me getting it - so I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to keep that running. But what exactly should I be asking BMW dealer for, and how much will they charge for it.

Was lead to believe it only needs a service every 2 years and visual check every year in between. So hardly want to rock up to bmw to have a mechanic kick tyres, say she's Grand and charge €200. Anyone know what's involved.

12-01-2019 10:04pm

I presume for warranty purposes it's best to have a BMW service at required intervals.

If I remember correctly service is every 2 years regardless of mileage think also for the Rex but mine is showing oil change and brake fluid after 1 yr 10 months old and about 44,000 kms probably due to to usage of the Rex not sure.

Probably change pollen filter , I must RTFM.

Battery is still perfect but the Rex can always make up for any loss of battery capacity in the years to come.

DrPhilG · 13-01-2019 2:49am

oodles19 wrote: »

higher driving position and comfort

Has she had a test drive? The i3 seats are a bit of a debate, some say they're horrendously uncomfortable while I quite like them.

13-01-2019 2:57am

I don't think the i3 seats are uncomfortable at all. I like them a lot. Could drive forever and not have a sore back.

DrPhilG · 13-01-2019 3:02am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think the i3 seats are uncomfortable at all. I like them a lot. Could drive forever and not have a sore back.

Likewise, but there are a lot of people who say they're terrible. So best to make sure his mother isn't one of them before she shells out €20k+.

13-01-2019 3:04am

Personal preference , lots of people say the seats in lots of cars are comfortable/uncomfortable.

My Mother never complained about the seats in my i3, no one has that's been in it.

oodles19 · 14-01-2019 10:48am

DrPhilG wrote: »

Has she had a test drive? The i3 seats are a bit of a debate, some say they're horrendously uncomfortable while I quite like them.

Yes, she had a test drive, she loved the car, driving position, driver visibility etc!

mordeith · 14-01-2019 11:53am

Regarding the seats I sometimes find the lower back part (toward the outside) a bit too noticeable at times but overall I like them.

DrPhilG · 21-01-2019 6:49pm

I'm sure there's a graph somewhere, but just how much does the ambient temperature affect charge speed?

Up here in the North West we have had a shocking CCS shortage for years. The rapid in Letterkenny has just been upgraded to a triple standard charger but it seems very slow!

In the first 30 minutes I've added 14.5kwh. The display on the back of the charger shows a charge rate of 34.3kw.

Its 2.5 degrees, and I had a "spirited" 25 mile drive before plugging in at 6%.

Edit - I left after 40 minutes. 21.6kw added, and when I unplugged the charger was reading 50.3kw output.

21-01-2019 10:19pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

I'm sure there's a graph somewhere, but just how much does the ambient temperature affect charge speed?

Up here in the North West we have had a shocking CCS shortage for years. The rapid in Letterkenny has just been upgraded to a triple standard charger but it seems very slow!

In the first 30 minutes I've added 14.5kwh. The display on the back of the charger shows a charge rate of 34.3kw.

Its 2.5 degrees, and I had a "spirited" 25 mile drive before plugging in at 6%.

Edit - I left after 40 minutes. 21.6kw added, and when I unplugged the charger was reading 50.3kw output.

Yes that sounds correct, a cold battery will charge slower s it's internal resistance increases slowing down the chemical reaction, sounds like the battery temp was 10-12 Deg C which is normal for any EV.

The battery heater will only come on when plugged in, pre heat selected and an depart timer set at least 4 hrs before departure, it will heat only to 10 Deg C which is really only to provide max regen and acceleration.

My i3 was charged for a few hrs last night and today was sitting all day so by the time I was heading to work tonight I noticed acceleration was sluggish and the power meter did not go all the way to the top.

In the Leaf 24 Kwh I noticed as little as 20-22 Kw regen when the battery was very cold.

The whole thing about battery heating on the i3 is that the i3 always wants to charge to 100% and if plugged in , charged and battery pre-heated to 10 Deg C BMW engineers probably thought that by the time the car needs a fast charge it will be plenty warm, and they are correct, by the time you need a charge it should be close to optimum for max fast charge current, about 20 Deg C.

You can easily check the battery temp , it's super easy, google "BMW i3 hidden menu" and you can easily see battery temp and battery capacity health in Kwh.

All electric cars suffer slower charging speeds with a cold battery.

Charging at higher rates on AC might help to keep it warmer and 11 Kw AC particularly so.

When we went to Galway in December, after staying the night charging speed was about the same 35 Kw and at about 50-55% I unplugged and by the time I got to the next one after charging and driving it was plenty warm.

Highest reading I saw from the charger with the i3 was around 58 Kw.

Again, the Rex saves the day, if your battery is very cold and charging slower you can simply fire up the rex and give it a good trashing which helps to keep it in shape instead of sitting idle for long periods. And after a good drive the battery should be warm enough.

If your battery temp is 8 Deg C it might warm 8 Degrees after 70 odd kms, the faster you go the warmer it will get but the faster you go the more energy you use lol.

23-02-2019 4:28pm

Who says the i3 is small ?

This is a pretty big lawnmower.

jYZePNF.jpg?1

Sherfin · 23-02-2019 5:00pm

Awaits Rex jokes

unkel · 23-02-2019 6:19pm

Is that what the genny looks like? :eek:

23-02-2019 6:40pm

Yeah told ye it doesn’t drive the wheels !

Patser · 23-02-2019 6:46pm

Which are narrower, tyres on i3 or the mower ?

23-02-2019 7:07pm

I3

Gumbo · 23-02-2019 7:16pm

I spent the day playing Tetris. Otherwise known as fitting all my crap and work gear into the boot!

27-02-2019 7:36pm

I got the 120 Ah i3 BEV while my own i3 is in for service (quoted 400 euros ) lol

Anyway, it feels different , it feels as if BMW numbed it down , the steering feels less engaging and the suspension feels different. I wonder did they try make it feel more normal because the S is available now ?

I didn't really notice any power difference to be honest.

The motor is more audible.

I love the apple car play integration because the BMW connected no longer works with Spotify or Tune In and I'd say it's more down to Spotify and Tune in. That really p1ssed me off !

I'm really disappointed they didn't have the "S" registered !

I'll probably take it to some back roads in the morning on the way to work and I'll get a much better feel for it, if there's much of a difference I'll probably notice it more when I get mine back, anyway, I've only driven it about 8 -10 Kms.

n97 mini · 27-02-2019 7:58pm

400 sounds a lot.

I got the Ampera serviced in Charles Hurst (to keep the warranty). £250, which I felt was also very expensive. It bugged me that while they looked at a lot, they did less work than the €180 service the Civic IMA got. Granted that was years ago but the price of parts hasn't really changed.

Gumbo · 27-02-2019 8:41pm

I noticed the service on my i3 BEV was 260 Sterling for the original owner.
I wonder how much the BEV is to service over here.

27-02-2019 8:46pm

I'll get a break down of the cost but the secretary said the oil was expensive , I didn't ask the price.

Oil filter can't be much and brake fluid has to be done then labour + main BMW dealer. I wasn't expecting it to be cheaper to be honest.

DrPhilG · 28-02-2019 12:23am

Mine came with a service pack and isn't due until October 2020. I'll be close to changing by that stage.

28-02-2019 10:03am

I left work with 93% charge and got to work return trip with 31% after 140 Kms which would have been 38% after 100% charge and the GOM said 98 Km in Eco Pro and 76 Km in Comfort but I would estimate 220 Kms not too hard to achieve and maybe 240-250 in Summer and possibly if I could manage 230 Kms in the 33 Kwh could get maybe 280 Kms same conditions in the 44 Kwh.

In the pics below, notice below the Apple car play and Spotify , tune in as you'd expect, what surprised me was having Mixcloud and Qmusic which is the App for my Nas at home that was pretty cool I have to say.

OH, the headlights, Holy Crap ! the high beams are the brightest I've ever seen, they are absolutely amazing !!!

Battery capacity 39.2 Kwh available.

Speeds heading home last night were 100 KM/h N7 to roadworks the 60-80 to M7/M9 Split and 110 Km/h to the Carlow/Castledermot turn off on M9.

Back up this morning, 110 Km/h to M9 Kilcullen turn off, back roads to N7 at Athgoe turn which I rejoined the N7 then the usual 60-80-100-60 etc to Kingswood turn off and 4 km to work.

DvvxHTc.jpg?1

Remember I set off with 93% charge not 100%.

n40A77F.jpg?1

28-02-2019 10:05am

I missed the keyless entry, and I only realise how bloody convenient it is when I haven't got it !!!

The car felt different alright, the steering didn't feel as sharp at all and a bit more artificial but still great to throw into bends.

I guess my i3 has more over steer and this i3 more "normal" probably more normal to account for the Sport i3 and let that be the more fun car, again I'll know when I get back into mine.

Kramer · 28-02-2019 6:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess my i3 has more over steer and this i3 more "normal"

Gees Mad_lad, do you drift your i3 through roundabouts? Kick her rear out sideways? Are you "diffing" in the small hours of the morning, laying down skinny black rubber donuts, welded diff/boy racer style?

28-02-2019 6:18pm

Kramer wrote: »

Gees Mad_lad, do you drift your i3 through roundabouts? Kick her rear out sideways? Are you "diffing" in the small hours of the morning, laying down skinny black rubber donuts, welded diff/boy racer style?

Sometimes I like to have some fun particularly in the wet and RWD is fun , off road of course !

ELM327 · 28-02-2019 6:22pm

Kramer wrote: »

Gees Mad_lad, do you drift your i3 through roundabouts? Kick her rear out sideways? Are you "diffing" in the small hours of the morning, laying down skinny black rubber donuts, welded diff/boy racer style?

EV diffing. Responsible and fun.

28-02-2019 6:24pm

Oh yeah , remember I said you hear the motor more in the 120 Ah , it's not the motor it's some God Damn pedestrian warning fake noise and you have to go into the menu to turn it off every time, that's the first think I would have in the i3 !

Since I had the Prius for 4 years, the Leaf for 3 years and the i3 for almost 1.5 years I have never, ever had an incident where I could say that fake noise makers in electric cars was justified.

I've never had a blind person walk out under me, no one ever landed on my windscreen, EV's are dangerous due to their silence is a pure and utter myth.

Yes you as a driver have to be more aware even with fake noise makers because people will walk without looking because they don't hear but it's their responsibility to hear.

Having said that when I was driving horribly noisy VW group diesels people still walk out under you so whether you have EV or not people do dumb things and with the amount of people with earphones in their ears and texting while walking even having a horn can sometimes make no difference as they crank up the volume to get rid of the traffic noise.

28-02-2019 6:26pm

ELM327 wrote: »

EV diffing. Responsible and fun.

Yes when you turn off traction it's a good laugh when you let it loose, responsibly of course and again on private ground.

Kramer · 28-02-2019 6:29pm

Maybe the i3s I had, with the wider profile tyres, had more grip. It was summer so roads were dry etc. but I never managed to get her sideways.

Thing was like a go cart, gripped like crazy & shot out of roundabouts like a scalded cat.
Very stiffly sprung though & with the low profile tyres, handling was too prioritised over comfort IMO. It was very uncomfortable much of the time, far too harsh a ride & even on certain motorways.

But it was great craic, addictive & enjoyable to drive, some of the time. Just not a car many could live with, day to day.

Drove the regular fossil ReX PHEV hybrid, self charging pram wheeled one straight after, far more sedate.

28-02-2019 6:34pm

Kramer wrote: »

Maybe the i3s I had, with the wider profile tyres, had more grip. It was summer so roads were dry etc. but I never managed to get her sideways.

Thing was like a go cart, gripped like crazy & shot out of roundabouts like a scalded cat.
Very stiffly sprung though & with the low profile tyres, handling was too prioritised over comfort IMO. It was very uncomfortable much of the time, far too harsh a ride & even on certain motorways.

But it was great craic, addictive & enjoyable to drive, some of the time. Just not a car many could live with, day to day.

Drove the regular fossil ReX PHEV hybrid, self charging pram wheeled one straight after, far more sedate.

No in the Dry it's very difficult to get it to misbehave unless you really really trash it.

The wet is a different story , it's easier to have fun but you still need to trash it but not as much and the skinnier tyres probably help. It still has tonnes more grip for acceleration than an ioniq or especially the 40 Kwh Leaf.

I would like to try the S, I wouldn't like it if it was very uncomfortable.

It would be nice if there was adjustable suspension.

Still the i3 is a good fun car decent cushy ride and decent handling to have a lot of fun as it is.

28-02-2019 11:43pm

Eco Pro + showing 350 Km after full charge

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Eco Pro 309 Kms

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Comfort 250 Kms

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When I got home 72.5 Kms driven , 71% battery left showing 185 kms left in eco pro. which might indicate 250 kms but not at 120 Km/h

Speeds 100 Km/h N7 to M7 roadworks, 110 Km/h M7/M9 split to few Kms before Carlow Town.

xEIqNYw.jpg?1

Tazium · 14-03-2019 10:50am

I’m in too. Collected my i3s on 5th March before going home for a week without it �� first decent drive today and first time to plug it in.

Couple of additional coding options on the way.

14-03-2019 11:03am

Nice one, well wear, welcome to the i3 Club. I'd say the S goes like stink ? and handles like it's on rails better than the standard version.

I'd be interested what you think of the suspension on Irish roads ?

What year is it, battery ?

Tazium · 14-03-2019 11:17am

Unlikely to ever have it at home Mad_Lad, it's a company car, brand new. I know feck all about the battery which is probably the best result for EVs. - just get in and go! It's 42.2kWh, 135kW according to the order dockets. I've posted previously about which car to go for and the personal taxation on BEV's is just 4% rather than 20-25% for ICE this really helped the decision. Still have a lego-car feeling about it, expect that won't last though.

punisher5112 · 14-03-2019 11:34am

Oh my god these are really growing on me.

At 1st I was like God they're awful looking yokes but I see one now and have a really wanting for one.

I really wish I had the money as I've moved and doing at least 180km a day and getting 54mpg in a 1.5 diesel.

Just bought a house so no hope of a loan to go with it but it's something I will have to be seriously considering at some point in the future as costs will be high running and ice.

Guess what Mad_Lad got this time?

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