Hate crime? Really?

Grayson · 12-04-2019 4:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If they are specifically targeting black people, then it is racial abuse. If they are targeting ANYONE they see as a soft touch, who they think they can humiliate or frighten and get away with it, then it isn't. There is a big difference. It might not feel any different to the victim, but that's not the point.

Those two "gents" would have been equally abusive to anyone else, especially anyone different than them. They would be just as likely to do something to me because I'm bald.

The outcome might be the same, but the motivation is very different. Confusing one with the other spreads distrust in society.

That means it can only be a hate crime if there's a certain amount of premeditation. Just scrolling past someone and calling them the n-word wouldn't count.

12-04-2019 4:53pm

It's also the latest thing where you get bonus points for some sort of discrimination based on your group identity.

Straight white Irishman gets robbed and beaten in an attack .... unfortunate.
Lesbian black short person gets robbed and beaten in an attack BY THE SAME PERSON .... HATE CRIME !!!!

Some scrote spray paints a hammer and sickle symbol on well known gay bar in Dublin ... vandalism.
Same scrote spray paints a Nazi symbol on well known gay bar in Dublin ... HATE CRIME !!!

Fall_Guy · 12-04-2019 4:53pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

Yeah the woman being upset by what those scumbags did to her when she was on her own and couldn't defend herself - could only be an example of perpetual victimhood.

The way people are so eager to show how tough and edgy they are here is quite something to behold. Not to mention the lengths to downplay it.

And she *wasn't* assaulted?

It's ok to be compassionate, honestly - it won't make you look like a snowflake (or whatever bollox term is getting used of late).

Compassion runs both ways. A pair of inner city kids doing something stupid stuff may be "scumbags" like you say....or they may be young kids with **** parents, no education and lives that you wouldn't swap places with all too quickly....just saying.

How Soon Is Now · 12-04-2019 4:54pm

Meh.

Hate crime lol!!

The real story here is the athleticism shown by the young fella! Future Olympian down the line ?

12-04-2019 4:54pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

No, not a hateful act as they didn’t do it out of hatred. Highly insensitive yes, but not hateful.

Ok, not motivated by hate, but still a hateful incident in that I hate that it happens, that anything like that happens anyone. Can we not agree on that much?

ohnonotgmail · 12-04-2019 4:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It doesn't fit the legal definition.

‘Any incident which is perceived by the victim or any other person as being motivated by hate, based on a person’s age, race, ethnicity, religious belief, gender identity, disability, or sexual orientation’ .

https://www.garda.ie/en/Crime/Hate-crime/What-is-hate-crime-.html

I have bolded an important part you seem to have missed.

12-04-2019 4:56pm

Grayson wrote: »

That means it can only be a hate crime if there's a certain amount of premeditation. Just scrolling past someone and calling them the n-word wouldn't count.

Strictly speaking, this is correct. However you would be in trouble for it. It's not a crime to call me a bald **** but it is to call me a ****** or a n-word.

12-04-2019 4:57pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I have bolded an important part you seem to have missed.

‘Any incident which is perceived by the victim or any other person as being motivated by hate, based on a person’s age, race, ethnicity, religious belief, gender identity, disability, or sexual orientation’ .

Wow you are right !!! I certainly did miss that !!!!

Then literally everything is a hate crime, as someone will perceive something perfectly innocent as a racial slur. That is a ridiculous definition.

Imagine other crimes were defined like that .... "I perceive I was robbed by the defendant Your Honour, therefore the defendant is guilty, even though they were in Spain at the time". Or even worse "Johnny down the road perceived I was robbed, even though I perceive I wasn't, so the defendant is guilty".

Fr_Dougal · 12-04-2019 4:59pm

Candie wrote: »

Ok, not motivated by hate, but still a hateful incident in that I hate that it happens, that anything like that happens anyone. Can we not agree on that much?

Not really, you can’t redefine words! But I do understand what you mean! 😊

Hector Savage · 12-04-2019 4:59pm

Mod-Banned

ohnonotgmail · 12-04-2019 4:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow you are right !!! Then literally everything is a hate crime, as someone will perceive something perfectly innocent as a racial slur. That is a ridiculous definition.

It is the definition you posted.

ohnonotgmail · 12-04-2019 5:00pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

classy as always.

12-04-2019 5:02pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Not really 😊

The wedding's off.

Gimme A Pound · 12-04-2019 5:02pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Compassion runs both ways. A pair of inner city kids doing something stupid may be "scumbags" like you say....or they may be young kids with **** parents, no education and lives that you wouldn't swap places with all too quickly....just saying.

Wow, the mental gymnastics.

They're responsible for their own behaviour.

Where's the evidence that they're from a sh1t background?

No, compassion doesn't always run both ways (where did you pull that from?)

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Meh.

Hate crime lol!!

The real story here is the athleticism shown by the young fella! Future Olympian down the line ?

And it was also a really sh1tty thing to do to someone on their own and unable to defend themselves... uncool and all as it is to acknowledge that lol!!!

vonlars · 12-04-2019 5:04pm

It was a hate crime because it was motivated by prejudice. Do you think they'd have hopped over a person of regular height? They assaulted her based solely on her disability, therefore a hate crime.

Some of ye would really want to wise up :rolleyes:

Gimme A Pound · 12-04-2019 5:12pm

vonlars wrote: »

It was a hate crime because it was motivated by prejudice. Do you think they'd have hopped over a person of regular height? They assaulted her based solely on her disability, therefore a hate crime.

Some of ye would really want to wise up :rolleyes:

Compassion is for pussies.

12-04-2019 5:13pm

vonlars wrote: »

It was a hate crime because it was motivated by prejudice. Do you think they'd have hopped over a person of regular height? They assaulted her based solely on her disability, therefore a hate crime.

Some of ye would really want to wise up :rolleyes:

They would have come up with some other way with someone else. If the person was a culchie for example, they would have mocked their accent. Is that a hate crime? Not according to the garda definition as being a culchie isn't a protected "term" like person’s age, race, ethnicity, religious belief, gender identity, disability, or sexual orientation.

But sure no one cares unless you are in one of those special groups. I guess we will all be old someday, then we can perceive to be discriminated against all the time and it's a hate crime every time.

12-04-2019 5:14pm

The Late Late Show has its misery spot next week

12-04-2019 5:15pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is the definition you posted.

It's not my definition, it's the definition of the authority that enforces the law of the country so it should be the correct one.

I'm not saying it's not the legal definition, I'm just saying it's a ridiculous definition - whoever came up with that legislation has zero intelligence or doesn't care about justice.

Some on here think compassion and caring about the correct definition of crimes are mutually exclusive. I would argue the opposite - if you are sloppy about legal definitions then you don't really care about people at all. I'm still astonished at the actual definition of hate crime in this country.

Compassion is not jumping on the latest bandwagon about who are victims and perpetrators in society - it's about truth. Who are the actual victims - not the ones that shout the loudest.

I have a huge amount of compassion for this woman. That doesn't stop me criticising what I see as badly written law.

Gimme A Pound · 12-04-2019 5:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

They would have come up with some other way with someone else. If the person was a culchie for example, they would have mocked their accent. Is that a hate crime? Not according to the garda definition as being a culchie isn't a protected "term" like person’s age, race, ethnicity, religious belief, gender identity, disability, or sexual orientation.

But sure no one cares unless you are in one of those special groups. I guess we will all be old someday, then we can perceive to be discriminated against all the time and it's a hate crime every time.

"No one cares"? Speak for yourself dude. People regularly start threads here about sh1tty things being done to defenceless people, whether they're part of a group or not.

If anything there is an active effort to show less empathy here because of the woman's size.

And I'd put money on two ways there would be more empathy shown - if she were a man and the two scumbags were girls, or if the two scumbags were muslim/African/travellers.

Identity politics works in various ways.

Sh1tty behaviour is sh1tty behaviour - the type of person the perpetrator/victim is shouldn't change anything.

Fall_Guy · 12-04-2019 5:21pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

Wow, the mental gymnastics.

They're responsible for their own behaviour.

Where's the evidence that they're from a sh1t background?

No, compassion doesn't always run both ways (where did you pull that from?)

And it was also a really sh1tty thing to do to someone on their own and unable to defend themselves... uncool and all as it is to acknowledge that lol!!!

I never said they are from a really ****ty background, I just said that they may be. I don't know for certain, but I'm making an educated guess that i am happy to say from the outset may be wrong. As i said in my earlier post.

I just don't see anything compassionate about branding kids as scumbags based on ignorant, thoughtless behaviour.

It 100% was a really ****ty thing to do, as you say. You seem to be very quick to claim people are being discompassionate towards the victim, while also failing to show any compassion towards the people who committed the stupid act. Its not a case of evil people torturing good people here, it's ignorant people hurting an innocent party.

I don't know if its cool or not, but its completely unhelpful to brand the young lads in this case as "scumbags".

ohnonotgmail · 12-04-2019 5:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not my definition, it's the definition of the authority that enforces the law of the country so it should be the correct one.

I'm not saying it's not the legal definition, I'm just saying it's a ridiculous definition - whoever came up with that legislation has zero intelligence or doesn't care about justice.

Some on here think compassion and caring about the correct definition of crimes are mutually exclusive. I would argue the opposite - if you are sloppy about legal definitions then you don't really care about people at all. I'm still astonished at the actual definition of hate crime in this country.

Compassion is not jumping on the latest bandwagon about who are victims and perpetrators in society - it's about truth. Who are the actual victims - not the ones that shout the loudest.

I have a huge amount of compassion for this woman. That doesn't stop me criticising what I see as badly written law.

You certainly haven't shown any compassion towards her. And the actual victim in this instance is clear. You seem to be implying that she is not a victim.

12-04-2019 5:25pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

If anything there is an active effort to show less empathy here because of the woman's size.

Those guys wanted a cheap laugh at that poor womans expense and completely dehumanized her, and that is exactly what a lot of posters on this thread have done too with cheap jokes at the victims expense.

It quickly got around to straight white men getting no sympathy and finally wound up with it being no big deal anyway. Depressing, but not surprising.

12-04-2019 5:33pm

Candie wrote: »

Those guys wanted a cheap laugh at that poor womans expense and completely dehumanized her, and that is exactly what a lot of posters on this thread have done too with cheap jokes at the victims expense.

It quickly got around to straight white men getting no sympathy and finally wound up with it being no big deal anyway. Depressing, but not surprising.

i agree some of the cheap shots on here by some posters are no better than the original attack.

It's anyone outside the protected groups, not just straight white men. If you are inside the protected group you can "perceive" to be a victim and get someone arrested and possibly imprisoned.

I am absolutely in favour of hate crime legislation, but it shouldn't be narrowly restricted to certain groups, and there should be some clear objective definition of it. Not something subjective that is wide open to abuse.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 12-04-2019 5:35pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I never said they are from a really ****ty background, I just said that they may be. I don't know for certain, but I'm making an educated guess that i am happy to say from the outset may be wrong. As i said in my earlier post.

I just don't see anything compassionate about branding kids as scumbags based on ignorant, thoughtless behaviour.

It 100% was a really ****ty thing to do, as you say. You seem to be very quick to claim people are being discompassionate towards the victim, while also failing to show any compassion towards the people who committed the stupid act. Its not a case of evil people torturing good people here, it's ignorant people hurting an innocent party.

I don't know if its cool or not, but its completely unhelpful to brand the young lads in this case as "scumbags".

This is what you get from the thread.

I’ve noticed a tendency to be more upset about words used to describe criminals rather than the criminality itself.

12-04-2019 5:35pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

"No one cares"? Speak for yourself dude. People regularly start threads here about sh1tty things being done to defenceless people, whether they're part of a group or not.

The law doesn't care, I'm not referring to myself. I actually care about victims no matter what background they have or group they belong to.

Pkiernan · 12-04-2019 5:35pm

Virtually guaranteed that these 2 dirtbags were on the dole.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 12-04-2019 5:38pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The law doesn't care, I'm not referring to myself. I actually care about victims no matter what background they have or group they belong to.

You can be discriminated against or be victim of a hate crime you know. A racial crime isn’t just white on black.

12-04-2019 5:38pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

This is what you get from the thread.

I’ve noticed a tendency to be more upset about words used to describe criminals rather than the criminality itself.

The criminality itself was not the point of the thread. If you want to open another thread about how awful the criminality itself was, go right ahead.

And it was rather unpleasant. Not as bad as being raped or murdered though.

12-04-2019 5:40pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You can be discriminated against or be victim of a hate crime you know. A racial crime isn’t just white on black.

It should be like that .... but it really isn't ....

Franz Von Peppercorn · 12-04-2019 5:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The criminality itself was not the point of the thread. If you want to open another thread about how awful the criminality itself was, go right ahead.

And it was rather unpleasant. Not as bad as being raped or murdered though.

I’ll stick with this thread though. Thanks!

I wasn’t replying to you at all but conversations in threads move on, and the poster I was replying to was upset about people classifying the perps not the actions themselves.

grindle · 12-04-2019 5:40pm

Oxford University Press wrote:

noun
noun: hate
1.
intense dislike.
"feelings of hate and revenge"
synonyms: loathing, hatred, detestation, dislike, distaste, abhorrence, abomination, execration, resentment, aversion, hostility, ill will, ill feeling, bad feeling; More
antonyms: love, liking

denoting hostile actions motivated by intense dislike or prejudice.
modifier noun: hate
"a hate campaign"

Upsetting for some other pedants I'm sure, but I'll take my definition from the world's primary source rather than "Ah now but is it though?" from boardsies.

Hostile action? Yep.
Prejudice? Yep.
Assault? Yep.
Dictionary definition met. Legal definition met.

Maybe tweet Oxford University Press and members of the Oireachtas if you want your own personal definitions to be met.

Autecher · 12-04-2019 5:41pm

Candie wrote: »

Those guys wanted a cheap laugh at that poor womans expense and completely dehumanized her, and that is exactly what a lot of posters on this thread have done too with cheap jokes at the victims expense.

It quickly got around to straight white men getting no sympathy and finally wound up with it being no big deal anyway. Depressing, but not surprising.

Just wait for the inevitable "I am a white male and I was attacked by a dwarf woman!!!" post.

12-04-2019 5:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And it was rather unpleasant. Not as bad as being raped or murdered though.

I don't understand this. Did someone claim it was? Did the victim?

recedite · 12-04-2019 5:41pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

Virtually guaranteed that these 2 dirtbags were on the dole.

Not if they were under 16.

I'm not condoning it, but its fairly a typical kind of prank that two 15 year olds might get up to. The next day, they could be train surfing.

None of it is clever, but there ya go. They grow out of it eventually, if they survive long enough.

12-04-2019 5:43pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Its not a case of evil people torturing good people here, it's ignorant people hurting an innocent party.

I don't know if its cool or not, but its completely unhelpful to brand the young lads in this case as "scumbags".

Anyone who does something like this isn't just "ignorant" - they are scum. It's these types that volunteered to run the concentration camps in Germany or rushed in droves to join ISIS when they heard they could behead people and have 9 year old "wives". Or like that ISIS German woman and her husband who allowed a 5 year old slave girl to starve to death because she wet her bed. These type of people don't change. They are born with a desire to inflict pain on others.

I've seen them growing up as a kid. They would be cruel to others with no reason other than pleasure.

recedite · 12-04-2019 5:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone who does something like this isn't just "ignorant" - they are scum. It's these types that ran the concentration camps in Germany or rushed in droves to join ISIS when they heard they could behead people and have 9 year old "wives". Or like that ISIS German woman and her husband who allowed a 5 year old slave girl to starve to death because she wet her bed. These type of people don't change. They are born with a desire to inflict pain on others.

Here we go; "they are literally nazis" because one of them leap frogged a dwarf.

12-04-2019 5:48pm

To be fair, and little about this incident is fair, those guys were described as being about sixteen. Lots of people do things at sixteen without any clue about if or how others will be affected by those actions, they simply don't think things through like they will just a few years later. It's perfectly possible that they're even usually decent lads, who did a lousy thing. Maybe one day they'll look back and cringe in shame and embarrassment at it.

Of course they could totally be completely scum who will never think about it again without getting a cheap laugh and never give a thought to the woman. Either of these scenarios could be true, or a bit of both. We don't know.

I hope they look back in shame, for their sakes and for the rest of society.

Vita nova · 12-04-2019 5:49pm

I'm not a legal expert, so can't say whether it meets the requirements to be a hate crime and am not sure it really matters outside of the legal system, however, it was certainly a pretty nasty thing to do and was done solely because of her stature.

It takes guts to go public and reveal her experience and then to try to change things by going to the schools. I have huge admiration for people like her, without them nothing changes.

12-04-2019 5:50pm

recedite wrote: »

Here we go; "they are literally nazis" because one of them leap frogged a dwarf.

The language you use matters. They assaulted a defenceless woman, don't minimize the effect of that.

eviltwin · 12-04-2019 5:51pm

recedite wrote: »

Not if they were under 16.

I'm not condoning it, but its fairly a typical kind of prank that two 15 year olds might get up to. The next day, they could be train surfing.

None of it is clever, but there ya go. They grow out of it eventually, if they survive long enough.

Typical kind of prank? Are all the 15 year olds you know complete knackers? I don't know any teens who would have such little respect for another person that they would think this is OK

12-04-2019 5:52pm

Candie wrote: »

To be fair, and little about this incident is fair, those guys were described as being about sixteen. Lots of people do things at sixteen without any clue about if or how others will be affected by those actions, they simply don't think things through like they will just a few years later. It's perfectly possible that they're even usually decent lads, who did a lousy thing. Maybe one day they'll look back and cringe in shame and embarrassment at it.

Of course they could totally be completely scum who will never think about it again without getting a cheap laugh and never give a thought to the woman. Either of these scenarios could be true, or a bit of both. We don't know.

I hope they look back in shame, for their sakes and for the rest of society.

I hope so too, but I very much doubt it. It's one thing to rob some apples, mitch from school, or even shouting abuse at someone, because you think it's somehow "cool" but targeted physical bullying like this takes an active mean streak.

12-04-2019 5:53pm

Vita nova wrote: »

I'm not a legal expert, so can't say whether it meets the requirements to be a hate crime and am not sure it really matters outside of the legal system, however, it was certainly a pretty nasty thing to do and was done solely because of her stature.

It takes guts to go public and reveal her experience and then to try to change things by going to the schools. I have huge admiration for people like her, without them nothing changes.

I agree 100%

12-04-2019 5:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope so too, but I very much doubt it. It's one thing to rob some apples, mitch from school, or even shouting abuse at someone, but targeted physical bullying like this takes an active mean streak.

Usually it does but we can always hope that this is more of a thoughtless streak, even if that chance is a slim one. I don't like writing off people at 16, people change a lot in the next few years.

recedite · 12-04-2019 5:54pm

Candie wrote: »

The language you use matters. They assaulted a defenceless woman, don't minimize the effect of that.

Not sure it counts as assault if the guy "whooshed over her head" without actually touching her.

Not even "verbal assault", as they don't seem to have even said anything within earshot of her.
I'd say one guy dared the other guy, and he just did it on the spur of the moment without thinking too much about it.

Not very nice, but we're not exactly in Nazi or ISIS territory here.

12-04-2019 5:56pm

recedite wrote: »

Not sure it counts as assault if the guy "whooshed over her head" without actually touching her.

Not even "verbal assault", as they don't seem to have even said anything within earshot of her.
I'd say one guy dared the other guy, and he just did it on the spur of the moment without thinking too much about it.

Not very nice, but we're not exactly in Nazi or ISIS territory here.

You don't have to make physical contact for assault. They definitely put her under threat.

It's more than not very nice, it's criminal. It could have long lasting effects on how that woman feels just going about her daily life. Its odd that people don't seem to get that, or think it's just a laugh.

is_that_so · 12-04-2019 5:57pm

grindle wrote: »

Upsetting for some other pedants I'm sure, but I'll take my definition from the world's primary source rather than "Ah now but is it though?" from boardsies.

Hostile action? Yep.
Prejudice? Yep.
Assault? Yep.
Dictionary definition met. Legal definition met.

Maybe tweet Oxford University Press and members of the Oireachtas if you want your own personal definitions to be met.

OUP don't define how we have drafted the laws we use and we don't have a whole lot in the way of hate crime legislation, just in the area of discrimination.

recedite · 12-04-2019 5:57pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Typical kind of prank? Are all the 15 year olds you know complete knackers? I don't know any teens who would have such little respect for another person that they would think this is OK

They prefer to be known as the travelling fraternity these days.

recedite · 12-04-2019 6:00pm

Candie wrote: »

You don't have to make physical contact for assault. They definitely put her under threat.

Its not assault, no.

There are three different categories of assault: Assault, Assault Causing Harm, and Assault Causing Serious Harm. The use or expected use of force is an important element to all three categories of assault. A definition of force includes any form of energy for example heat, light, electric current or noise or any matter in solid, liquid or gaseous form.

https://www.garda.ie/en/Crime/Assaults/What-is-an-assault-.html

Fall_Guy · 12-04-2019 6:02pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

This is what you get from the thread.

I’ve noticed a tendency to be more upset about words used to describe criminals rather than the criminality itself.

What I get from the thread is that many seem to have a misguided notion on what is likely to lead to any change in the ****ty behaviour that was on display in this incident.... Branding people scumbags, people who can't be educated, people who deserve rough justice for their crime (three views put forward, not all by the same poster admittedly).

Ironically, the mindset I have is completely in keeping with the actual victim of the act, who is going into schools around the area where the act occurred and working with the students in order to raise awareness, build empathy and better educate young people on the power that their words and actions can have on others, for better or worse.

More and better education is what is likely to decrease the frequency of this sort of negative, antisocial behaviour. Handwringing, chastising, branding people scumbags and calls for "justice" against kids for ignorant stupidity (talking specifically about this case here) may feel good but if your actual aim is to make this sort of stupid **** happen LESS, its completely counterproductive.

Hate crime? Really?

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