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How do you convince people god exists?

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    #602
    karlitob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭karlitob


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    Couldn't remember who posted it and hadn't time to scroll back looking.

    As for wandering in. Ive been doing so since fairly early in the thread. Honestly , it's the same old rhetoric rehashed. I'm not sure if it has a purpose without the Christians wandering in.

    No one here can disprove God and always put it back on the believer to prove Him.

    I have my experience of Him. You don't and therefore He's not real to you or any other atheist. Lack of experience is not proof of non existence, it's just lack of experience.

    Same can be said for pink unicorns, though I'm not sure anyone here has experienced them so not sure what the fascination is with them.

    As for not replying to your post. There are other posts I didn't reply to either. Ive limited time so you're not special in not being responded to.

    How dare you! I’m a fervent believer in pink unicorns. If you have never experienced the love and wonder of a relationship with Pinky - the overlord of the pink unicorns - then I pity you. But don’t you dare tell me that my belief in pink unicorns is less than your belief in your god just because you’re not sure others have experienced them. I don’t need you to validate my faith in the existence of the one true god - pinky.
    All hail pinky.

    Fun fact. Pinky is the product of a Virgin birth of red unicorn and white unicorn.


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    #603
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,460 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    karlitob wrote: »
    How dare you! I’m a fervent believer in pink unicorns. If you have never experienced the love and wonder of a relationship with Pinky - the overlord of the pink unicorns - then I pity you. But don’t you dare tell me that my belief in pink unicorns is less than your belief in your god just because you’re not sure others have experienced them. I don’t need you to validate my faith in the existence of the one true god - pinky.
    All hail pinky.

    Fun fact. Pinky is the product of a Virgin birth of red unicorn and white unicorn.

    I love the outrage :D

    Long live pinky, long live FSM (pbuh) :D


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    #604
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    The bible warns us this world is controlled by the devil and there is a spiritual realm that we can’t see or physically touch, which is why we need God’s word to protect us from the devil and his demons.

    In today’s world we see that it is controlled by the Devil and we have been programmed by media and film since we were born that God does not exist. A lot of people are too caught up with the world and don’t realise they are being deceived and lead astray.

    Those that control the Bank of International Settlements and privately owned US Federal Reserve are part of the luciferian worshipping illuminati that control this world. We see the misery they inflict on the world and their roots extend out to large media corporations, financial institutions, governments, Hollywood and the music industry.

    For atheists this is a hard pill to swallow. Their perception of reality since they were born is based on a lie. They scream conspiracy, hate Jesus Christ and try to ban people that speak the truth. This is why the bible is so important. It is God’s word and allows Christians to be in the world but not of the world.


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    #605
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    An afterlife would be nice.
    Winning the lotto would also be nice.
    I'm not gambling on either.


    F*ck that sideways and backwards. Living once is enough tyvm!
    one world order wrote: »
    The bible warns us this world is controlled by the devil and there is a spiritual realm that we can’t see or physically touch, which is why we need God’s word to protect us from the devil and his demons.

    In today’s world we see that it is controlled by the Devil and we have been programmed by media and film since we were born that God does not exist. A lot of people are too caught up with the world and don’t realise they are being deceived and lead astray.

    Those that control the Bank of International Settlements and privately owned US Federal Reserve are part of the luciferian worshipping illuminati that control this world. We see the misery they inflict on the world and their roots extend out to large media corporations, financial institutions, governments, Hollywood and the music industry.

    For atheists this is a hard pill to swallow. Their perception of reality since they were born is based on a lie. They scream conspiracy, hate Jesus Christ and try to ban people that speak the truth. This is why the bible is so important. It is God’s word and allows Christians to be in the world but not of the world.

    A bible that was written by people men with agendas.. .. .. Sure, you cling onto "god's word" when god had sweet f*ck all to do with it.


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    #606
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    jaxxx wrote: »
    F*ck that sideways and backwards. Living once is enough tyvm!



    A bible that was written by people men with agendas.. .. .. Sure, you cling onto "god's word" when god had sweet f*ck all to do with it.

    Wrong. The Holy Spirit worked through people that gave us the bible.


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    #607
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    karlitob wrote: »
    So you’re agnostic about
    - Haile Selassie, the Emperor of Ethiopia between 1930 and 1974, as the Second Coming of Christ (Rastafarianism)
    - wanka tankan
    - Zeus
    - xenu
    - Odin
    - Bacchus

    I'm even agnostic about the flying spaghetti monster and Russell's teapot.

    For all we know they might be lover's and God only knows when Russells teapot will arrive on our shore's and emulate the cup that runneth over metaphor.

    There's also fairies at the bottom of the garden playing a game of hurling.


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    #608
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    smacl wrote: »
    I love the richness and complexity of different traditions, belief systems and mythologies but also believe that there's more to something being possibly true than wanting it to be true. A bit sad maybe, but there you go. I find that the notion of an afterlife leads some people to waste the one life they definitely do have. They live like they're playing a game of space invaders with more lives left if they wipe out without realising they're already on their last guy ;)

    lol sometimes if you play well enough you'll get an extra life :)

    Well according to my lifestyle I'm going down to the depths of hell, and its sounds like fun :)


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    #609
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    An afterlife would be nice.
    Winning the lotto would also be nice.
    I'm not gambling on either.

    Time's are tough Bannashidhe, hold onto your money...

    Gambling leads to the dark side :)


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    #610
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    one world order wrote: »
    The bible warns us this world is controlled by the devil and there is a spiritual realm that we can’t see or physically touch, which is why we need God’s word to protect us from the devil and his demons.

    In today’s world we see that it is controlled by the Devil and we have been programmed by media and film since we were born that God does not exist. A lot of people are too caught up with the world and don’t realise they are being deceived and lead astray.

    Those that control the Bank of International Settlements and privately owned US Federal Reserve are part of the luciferian worshipping illuminati that control this world. We see the misery they inflict on the world and their roots extend out to large media corporations, financial institutions, governments, Hollywood and the music industry.

    For atheists this is a hard pill to swallow. Their perception of reality since they were born is based on a lie. They scream conspiracy, hate Jesus Christ and try to ban people that speak the truth. This is why the bible is so important. It is God’s word and allows Christians to be in the world but not of the world.

    MOD

    You were warned in another thread to stop proselytising and begin discussing. In that warning you were specifically advised to reacquaint yourself with the charter and it was highlighted that soapboxing is not permitted. Yet here you are - soapboxing in a different thread.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114023192&postcount=20

    The charter applies across this forum. Just because you were warned to stop doing something in one thread does not mean you can simply continue to do so in another.

    Do not discuss this in any thread - take it to PM


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    #611
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    Couldn't remember who posted it and hadn't time to scroll back looking.

    As for wandering in. Ive been doing so since fairly early in the thread. Honestly , it's the same old rhetoric rehashed. I'm not sure if it has a purpose without the Christians wandering in.

    No one here can disprove God and always put it back on the believer to prove Him.

    I have my experience of Him. You don't and therefore He's not real to you or any other atheist. Lack of experience is not proof of non existence, it's just lack of experience.

    Same can be said for pink unicorns, though I'm not sure anyone here has experienced them so not sure what the fascination is with them.

    As for not replying to your post. There are other posts I didn't reply to either. Ive limited time so you're not special in not being responded to.

    Is your experience of "him" an experience of him? Or something you attributed to "him"?
    We don't need to disprove God, the default position is that something doesn't exist until there is proof it does.
    On a separate point, how would you expect someone to prove a negative?


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    #612
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,460 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Is your experience of "him" an experience of him? Or something you attributed to "him"?
    We don't need to disprove God, the default position is that something doesn't exist until there is proof it does.
    On a separate point, how would you expect someone to prove a negative?

    From my point of view you need to disprove God. This thread is testament to the fact that you can't.
    Millions upon millions since the beginning of creation have proven His existence by their experience of Him. From my point of view, it's you who needs to prove to me that He doesn't exist.
    The human race didn't believe the earth was round. Their non belief didn't change the facts.


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    #613
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    From my point of view you need to disprove God. This thread is testament to the fact that you can't.
    Millions upon millions since the beginning of creation have proven His existence by their experience of Him. From my point of view, it's you who needs to prove to me that He doesn't exist.
    The human race didn't believe the earth was round. Their non belief didn't change the facts.

    And they would have been correct - the Earth is not 'round'.

    But I suspect you mean they believed the Earth is flat - can you supply evidence 'the human race' believed this?


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    #614
    Rock77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Rock77


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    From my point of view you need to disprove God. This thread is testament to the fact that you can't.
    Millions upon millions since the beginning of creation have proven His existence by their experience of Him. From my point of view, it's you who needs to prove to me that He doesn't exist.
    The human race didn't believe the earth was round. Their non belief didn't change the facts.

    But surely you can see the flawed logic here... surely you know that you can’t prove something doesn’t exist...

    I know people have used pink unicorns and such to debate with you but do you see what their point is?

    YOU can’t prove that pink unicorns don’t exist.. can you? But that doesn’t prove they do exist, does it?

    So do you apply the same logic for everything? Do you believe in pink unicorns until somebody proves they don’t exist?


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    #615
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Rock77 wrote: »
    Do you believe in pink unicorns until somebody proves they don’t exist?
    And I've developed a medicine for keeping pink unicorns at bay.

    So far, it's been 100% effective and I'm selling it privately - please PM for details.


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    #616
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,460 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Rock77 wrote: »
    But surely you can see the flawed logic here... surely you know that you can’t prove something doesn’t exist...

    I know people have used pink unicorns and such to debate with you but do you see what their point is?

    YOU can’t prove that pink unicorns don’t exist.. can you? But that doesn’t prove they do exist, does it?

    So do you apply the same logic for everything? Do you believe in pink unicorns until somebody proves they don’t exist?

    I know He exists. You can't prove otherwise and yet atheism insists He doesn't. Surely the logic is flawed :)


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    #617
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,460 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    And they would have been correct - the Earth is not 'round'.

    But I suspect you mean they believed the Earth is flat - can you supply evidence 'the human race' believed this?

    And yet the ops testament speaks of God sitting on the circle of the earth.
    Most sane people know the earth is a globe rather that a flat object if that's what your referring to.


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    #618
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    And yet the ops testament speaks of God sitting on the circle of the earth.
    Most sane people know the earth is a globe rather that a flat object if that's what your referring to.

    I asked you to provide proof of your claim that the human race did not believe the Earth was round.
    The request was very clear.
    You made the claim.
    I am asking for the basis of that claim to be provided.

    The Bible doesn't count by the way. It does not encompass the 'human race'.


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    #619
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    I know He exists. You can't prove otherwise and yet atheism insists He doesn't. Surely the logic is flawed :)

    You do not know.
    You believe.

    It is not the same thing.


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    #620
    Rock77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Rock77


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    I know He exists. You can't prove otherwise and yet atheism insists He doesn't. Surely the logic is flawed :)

    You know who exists? I was talking about pink unicorns.. why didn’t you answer any of my questions?

    I’m not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just wondering if you apply the same logic to everything..

    Do you believe something exists until it’s proven that it doesn’t exist?

    You know a god exists, good for you.

    I don’t know that a god exists, do you think I should believe a god exists until somebody proves one doesn’t exist?

    Atheism does not insist a god doesn’t exist.


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    #621
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You do not know.
    You believe.

    It is not the same thing.
    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    I know He exists. You can't prove otherwise and yet atheism insists He doesn't. Surely the logic is flawed :)


    And you're talking about logic.. .. .. right.


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    #622
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    As for wandering in.

    Which, I repeat, was not what I said.
    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    No one here can disprove God and always put it back on the believer to prove Him.

    Rightly so. If you want to make something up, then it is on you to show that that something is true. It is not for people to falsify a claim you abjectly, but consistently, refuse to offer a shred of evidence for.
    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    I have my experience of Him. You don't and therefore He's not real to you or any other atheist.

    I have never experienced Australia either. That does not mean it is not real to me. People have evidenced the existence of Australia to me. I have not had any direct experience of Hitler either. Yet I have little doubts as to his historical existence.

    You are acting like direct personal experience is the only evidence for a claim. The problem is not that I do not have ONE piece of evidence that you claim you have. It is that I have ZERO evidence of ANY sort at all.

    It is you, not I, making it all about one piece/type of evidence. I am more open minded than that.
    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    From my point of view you need to disprove God.

    THAT you think this is hardly in doubt, so you do not need to remind us of it. On what basis you think it however is opaque to many of us and, I am beginning to suspect, to you.

    Your entire basis for thinking people have to disprove unsubstantiated nonsense is basically that other people believed this unsubstantiated nonsense too.


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    #623
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,460 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I asked you to provide proof of your claim that the human race did not believe the Earth was round.
    The request was very clear.
    You made the claim.
    I am asking for the basis of that claim to be provided.

    The Bible doesn't count by the way. It does not encompass the 'human race'.

    Making the rules up as you go along. Who are you to say what counts?


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    #624
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,460 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Which, I repeat, was not what I said.



    Rightly so. If you want to make something up, then it is on you to show that that something is true. It is not for people to falsify a claim you abjectly, but consistently, refuse to offer a shred of evidence for.



    I have never experienced Australia either. That does not mean it is not real to me. People have evidenced the existence of Australia to me. I have not had any direct experience of Hitler either. Yet I have little doubts as to his historical existence.

    You are acting like direct personal experience is the only evidence for a claim. The problem is not that I do not have ONE piece of evidence that you claim you have. It is that I have ZERO evidence of ANY sort at all.

    It is you, not I, making it all about one piece/type of evidence. I am more open minded than that.



    THAT you think this is hardly in doubt, so you do not need to remind us of it. On what basis you think it however is opaque to many of us and, I am beginning to suspect, to you.

    Your entire basis for thinking people have to disprove unsubstantiated nonsense is basically that other people believed this unsubstantiated nonsense too.

    Its nonsense to you. It's life to me.


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    #625
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    Its nonsense to you. It's life to me.

    Which makes you biased, emotionally mostly but intellectually too.... and me open minded. That makes communication difficult of course. If one of us is constrained by a deep emotional bias that the other (me) is not.... communication is rendered problematic.

    What helps in such situations is to ask the same questions but in a completely different context.

    In a court of law for example it is the people making the claim that usually carry the onus of evidence. If there is zero evidence you committed the murder, you do not HAVE to prove you didn't. You CAN of course, with an albeit or similar. But unless there is a case against you, you should not have to.

    Similarly in science people do not just make up random ideas and act like they are true and that everyone else has to prove them wrong. While science is based on proving things wrong by experimentation and prediction....... an entirely unsubstantiated idea is just that. An unsubstantiated idea. It does not matter if 1 person or 1 million people believe the idea. If I just made it up, and I have ZERO evidence for it.... that's on me.

    So I am curious what context OTHER than you pretending there is a god........ can you think of where people get to make a claim and then act like everyone else who does not believe the claim has the onus of evidence? Or is it magically only on the things YOU want to call "true" that this happens?

    And what of the millions of people who believe in polytheism? Why is it you do not have to prove them wrong? Why is it only YOUR Fantasy that is immune to the burden of proof, but everyone else's is not?

    TLDR: I am seeing nothing except your "Argumentum ad populum" that justifies your pretence that everyone has to prove your claim wrong rather than you evidence your claim true?


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    #626
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    Making the rules up as you go along. Who are you to say what counts?

    Mod

    I am the person who is drawing your attention to the following from the forum charter
    3. While posting of controversial questions to stimulate debate is acceptable, soap boxing, i.e constant repetition of a single viewpoint while refusing to entertain discussion on it, is both disruptive and annoying, and will not be tolerated. You are expected to contribute something other than placard proclamations.
    and warning you that your placard proclamations stop now, as does your continual telling people here what they do or do not believe. You are not engaging in discussion in good faith but are instead playing silly gotcha games. That is not discussion. That is soapboxing. I would even go so far as to say it is borderline trolling at this stage.

    I am also the person warning you that making alleged statements of fact and then refusing to provide supporting evidence when requested to do so is frowned upon in this forum. The person who makes the claim provides the supporting evidence. That is how we do things around here.
    You do not get to make the rules up as you go along.

    Do not respond to this in thread. If you have any questions take it to PM.


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    #627
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,938 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    An afterlife would be nice.

    I'm not so sure it would be, actually...

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #628
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,938 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    Ah come on now, it wasn't so long ago when Atheism Ireland were trying to get together on a Sunday and have a secular gathering.

    So what?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #629
    kowloonkev
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    I really don't get people's obsession with others' faith. Some people believe in God. Get over it.

    Science, law, political systems, education systems are equally as corruptable as religion. We know scientists blatantly lie for money. We know they lied about the effects of smoking. We know they lied about face masks. So how can we know when they are telling the truth? How do we know whether humanity has proof of the existence of God? Would they tell us if they had proof? Would it be bad for business?

    We know the court of law is different in every country so which court are we comparing religion to? Do you really think in most countries there is a burden of proof on the accuser? Do you really think evidence beyond doubt is required if people in authority want somebody gone? Do you think they won't be able to produce such evidence where it doesn't exist if necessary?

    Using science and law as bastions of how we ought to maintain standards, be responsible and hold people responsible is very amusing to me.


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    #630
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    kowloonkev wrote: »
    I really don't get people's obsession with others' faith. Some people believe in God. Get over it.

    Is that not a bit like going into a pub and declaring you think everyone is obsessed with beer, or onto a sports pitch and wonder why everyone seems to be obsessed with balls?

    You have come SPECIFICALLY to a forum that discussed faith and religion, and you think we are obsessed?
    kowloonkev wrote: »
    Science, law, political systems, education systems are equally as corruptable as religion.

    Not equally so. Please show your measurements and workings in how you valued this corruptability exactly, and how you concluded the final values to be equal.

    There are things, like in for example science, that are specifically built to undermine corruption. Does that mean it is perfect and corruption free? Hell no! Science has a long way to go there yet. But the existence of corruption and human bias and agendas there does not mean it is EQUALLY corruptible as something based solely and entirely on fantasy.

    Everything faces the potential of corruption. But the more something tracks with reality and evidence and substantiation and discourse..... the less that potential becomes. Whereas the less something tracks with reality, for example religion, the more potential there is.
    kowloonkev wrote: »
    We know scientists blatantly lie for money. We know they lied about the effects of smoking. We know they lied about face masks. So how can we know when they are telling the truth? How do we know whether humanity has proof of the existence of God? Would they tell us if they had proof? Would it be bad for business?

    All we can do is work on the evidence we DO have at any given time, without getting tin foil hat about the evidence we do not have. We could sit around imagining "they" have evidence for "a god" whoever they/god is. Conspiracy theories about what they might be hiding from us. But that way madness lies.

    The alternative is to say "Well what evidence have I got right now, and if I have trouble understanding evidence what education can I get for myself to assist me in parsing it?"

    You mention smoking and masks for example. Rather than scream about being lied to, ask yourself what evidence you have. What do you know about masks for example? And the virus they are meant to prevent? YOU can ask questions like "How does the virus leave the body? How does it travel? What size are the particles they leave the body on? What size particles does a mask stop?" and you come to the conclusion not just that masks do help, but also WHY they help.

    The problem there is not science. The problem is people sitting back wanting conclusions handed to them on a plate. Only a science literate public can hold the world of scientists, and governments, to account. And all too often people are happy to remain ignorant and not put in ever small levels of effort. And the thing is even small effort reaps large rewards in scientific literacy. Simply reading.... and re-reading if you did not understand it the first time.... a book like Ben Goldacres "Bad Science" is enough to move anyone up several levels of literacy when it comes to science.
    kowloonkev wrote: »
    Using science and law as bastions of how we ought to maintain standards, be responsible and hold people responsible is very amusing to me.

    Great that no one has actually done that here then I suppose. What WAS done was they were used as random examples, and a yard stick to ask the question why one single user feels he can make up what he likes and everyone has to prove HIM wrong, but if anyone elses makes any claims or counter claims, they have to prove themselves right.

    When someone does not have the burden of proof EITHER when they are making claims or evaluating claims.... that someone is playing you for a fool. And I am no one's fool whatever else I might be.


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    #631
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kowloonkev wrote: »
    I really don't get people's obsession with others' faith. Some people believe in God. Get over it.
    "Get over it" is such a teenagery thing - like, honestly :rolleyes:

    The problem isn't that people believe in one god or another one, but what happens when lots of people who reckon they all believe the same things about the same god get together and decide that they need to interfere in the lives of other people.

    Luckily, here in Ireland, the RCC and other religious outfits retain little genuine influence any more. The one area where they do retain some influence and where they wield it with something like the energy of past years is in their control of the vast majority of the nation's schools. In this, the state, which pays to run the schools, also allows the various churches which control certain aspects of them, to spend somewhere between 10% and 20% of the curriculum peddling whatever tendentious religious horseshit they wish.

    There are other areas as well, but that's the main one. Get the religions out of school and back into the churches where they belong and I can guarantee you that most atheists and agnostics will simply leave them at it - with only the occasional giggle-fit as yet another homophobic preacher turns out - you guessed it - to have a string of dollar-oriented, meth-fuelled boyfriends.


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