How do you convince people god exists?

karlitob

smacl wrote: »

Mod warning: As per the charter, no referring to other posters as trolls. If you see a post you think is trolling please report it and leave it to the mods. Thanks for your attention.

Understood - apologies. Didn’t realise - (COs I didn’t read the charter).

Huntergonzo

nthclare wrote: »

lol I'll send you a private message about it, I'm not going to start these discussions on this forum

Ha no bother

karlitob

nthclare wrote: »

I'm not trolling,we were getting along ok until I said something different.

I don't believe in the Abrahamic God we have that in common,how come when I mention other things you say I'm trolling.

These discussions come up now and again, not everyone is old school here and sometimes it's ok to refresh or discuss outside the box.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Why would you think that the suspension of the laws of physics and the universe happened to you - in a positive way; rather than a scientific explanation.

karlitob

nthclare wrote: »

But the situation is, people think differently.

Some people have experienced things that defy logic, the Atheists leaning scientists will say it's an illusion or delusion.

Their brains are programmed differently and they can't grasp much outside of the book's they're reading and the people they look up to like Dawkins or other atheist writer's.

I have seen a cryptoid one evening on a lonely backroad and it was plane to see this thing wasn't of this world, I don't drink alcohol or take any mind altering substance, or on any medication.

I wasn't tired or hyper either, it wasn't a dream.

UFO's and other strange things appearing and disappearing , there's an upsurge in Sasquatch sightings in America at the moment.

The Patterson clip is still being debated.

People think lenticular clouds are UFOs also.

Marhay70

I can't understand God's reluctance to show himself or his power in these modern times. In biblical times he had no problem demonstrating his power by leaving out daily food for the Israelites in the desert or parting seas or knocking down city walls, even in NT times, he fed thousands with what was basically a sandwich and even later on held the sun in the sky to impart a message, although many in attendance didn't see this for some reason.
My point is that no matter which religious teachings you follow, and in Ireland this is still largely the biblical account, it seems unfair that people in ancient times were given empirical evidence of God's existence and left in no doubt as to his capabilities but modern people still have to rely on myths and legends.

nthclare

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm sure you'll have no trouble then posting up a few links of atheists doing just that?

What some religious people deserve shame for is committing, covering up or supporting those who covered up abuses. Not for being religious in itself.




What's wrong with that? A lot of religious beliefs and claims are objectively ridiculous. It's ridiculing a belief, not shaming a person, so once again you got nuthin' - so far.

As for ranting about so-called "SJWs" there seems to be an entire 'current affairs' forum devoted to that... :rolleyes: it's nothing to do with atheism one way or the other.




Oh wow so you have one anecdote about one child in one school and think that that proves some sort of point about the country as a whole?

Schools absolutely do push religion on kids and some do this even when parents have expressed the desire to opt out - which is a constitutional right no less.

Unless you complete the catholic or protestant course on religious instruction in teacher training college, and can convince a board of management that you actively practise the C or P religion as appropriate, you are unemployable as a teacher in 96% of Irish primary schools.

My kids are opted out of religion in a religious ethos school - believe me, teaching religion as fact is the daily norm in this school just like the vast majority of others. Their right to opt out has been mostly respected. I've heard plenty of cases in other schools where it was not respected at all. And at that, we had one teacher repeatedly make snippy comments to my child before religion lessons. 21st Century Ireland, ladies and gentlemen.

How many kids in Irish schools are indoctrinated these days and follow the Bible and cathecism ?

I don't know many that's for sure, if I wanted to teach I'd probably go with the status quo.

Who cares, religion is dying here in Ireland, a lot of people turn up at mass and they're there just to be there I don't go myself.

I think you're taking it too serious to be honest, come on in all fairness if you believe that kid's are going into the fold of the Catholic church from school you're absolutely blinded by your own resentments.

nthclare

karlitob wrote: »

People think lenticular clouds are UFOs also.

People also think statue's and pictures are watching them too.

People think about a lot of things.

People all kinds of strange things, poltergeists, strange sounds in the sky.
Different realms and dimensions etc

Hotblack Desiato

They're not "going into the fold of the catholic church" which just renders the whole charade even more annoying and pointless.

At primary level it's a minimum of 2.5 hours of religious instruction every week. Think of what that time could be better used for.

You can hardly say religion is dying in Ireland when we still allow them to control 96% of primary schools directly (despite the fact we fund them, not the churches) and even the Community National Schools which are fully state-owned had the RCC dictate how religion was to be taught in these state schools. These were only established a few years ago. So has anything really changed?

Hotblack Desiato

Marhay70 wrote: »

it seems unfair that people in ancient times were given empirical evidence of God's existence and left in no doubt as to his capabilities but modern people still have to rely on myths and legends.

Well we had the moving statues in the 80s

nthclare

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They're not "going into the fold of the catholic church" which just renders the whole charade even more annoying and pointless.

At primary level it's a minimum of 2.5 hours of religious instruction every week. Think of what that time could be better used for.

You can hardly say religion is dying in Ireland when we still allow them to control 96% of primary schools directly (despite the fact we fund them, not the churches) and even the Community National Schools which are fully state-owned had the RCC dictate how religion was to be taught in these state schools. These were only established a few years ago. So has anything really changed?

I hear what you're saying and I cannot say you're wrong.
The way I'm looking at it is, the Catholic church isn't gaining much traction anymore and eventually it'll die away and fade.

There's a lot of variables in the situation you can't just pull the carpet from underneath the education system, but it's happening and eventually it'll be no more...

Let it happen... they'll never get a grip on us again....

Marhay70

nthclare wrote: »

I hear what you're saying and I cannot say you're wrong.
The way I'm looking at it is, the Catholic church isn't gaining much traction anymore and eventually it'll die away and fade.

There's a lot of variables in the situation you can't just pull the carpet from underneath the education system, but it's happening and eventually it'll be no more...

Let it happen... they'll never get a grip on us again....

It's not happening quickly enough though. No matter who you think is responsible for imparting religious teaching in schools, the RCC is still a powerful force in education, young children hang on every word their teachers say and if what teachers are saying is propaganda for the RCC then it stands to reason that children will ingest that.
Religion needs to be taken out of the educational equation completely, it won't be easy because of the collusion of Church and State in the early days but a start needs to be made and not just a token one.

karlitob

nthclare wrote: »

People also think statue's and pictures are watching them too.

People think about a lot of things.

People all kinds of strange things, poltergeists, strange sounds in the sky.
Different realms and dimensions etc

I’m not sure what your point is but you’re certainly proving mine.

SouthWesterly

smacl wrote: »

Really, care to list those tenets for us?

Faith in the absence of God without any proof of same and then being so convinced of its truth that everyone else is wrong.

Self belief to the extent that a supernatural entity isn't required or needed.

nthclare

karlitob wrote: »

I’m not sure what your point is but you’re certainly proving mine.

Great, I'm happy enough with that conclusion.
We're on solid ground now.

I find it hard to figure myself out,so it's good to know I've provided you with a stencil to prove your own point and there's more than two ways to sharpen a hook...to catch a fish.

I'm kind of perplexed as to why we set off respectfully discussing a subject and then out of nowhere you suggest I'm a trool.

I didn't undermine any of your post's.

Is it because I said something about unsolved mysteries and other things that are way out there ?

Or is it something else ?

SouthWesterly

karlitob wrote: »

My best favourite argument. Since your presume that a magic man in the sky is the source of morality, and that all good things come from him or her or whatever pronoun they wish to be known by. Therefore, you condescend that I can believe whatever I want but really if I don’t murder someone then it’s must be god.

I’ve news for you. Morality is not sourced from a made up man in the sky.

You also forgot a few other commandments
- though shalt not have other gods before me
- though shaky not have strange idols.

For the creator of the universe, he (or she or they) must have a bit of an inferiority complex that the first two commandments - his 10 rules for living relate to this.


Not to mention the thought crime - though shalt not covet they neighbours wife and thy neighbours goods.

So I’m happy not to steal, lie or murder (the commandment is murder and not killing). And you can worry about a magic man policing your thoughts.

Youre entitled to your opinion.
what I'm saying is that if someone tells me their a Christian then I want to see what that word entails being out worked in their lives
If I don't see it I'll be as disbelieving as any atheist on this forum.

Btw, Jesus brought it further by saying hate was the same as murder. Lust, as adultery.
Didn't forget any of the commandments, just referred to those that effected those around us.

Pherekydes

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Faith in the absence of God without any proof of same and then being so convinced of its truth that everyone else is wrong.

Self belief to the extent that a supernatural entity isn't required or needed.

I'd just like to point out that this is post #666 of this poster.

Do you believe in Frigg?

This is your position:

Faith in the presence of gods without any proof of same and then being so convinced of its truth that everyone else is wrong.

You believe in a god. We don't. It's that simple. The faith required is all on your side.

SouthWesterly

Pherekydes wrote: »

I'd just like to point out that this is post #666 of this poster.

Do you believe in Frigg?

This is your position:

Faith in the presence of gods without any proof of same and then being so convinced of its truth that everyone else is wrong.

You believe in a god. We don't. It's that simple. The faith required is all on your side.

Whats the number of posts got to so with it?
I've over 15k posts on boards.
Your lack of faith is as much faith like it or not. No atheist has ever been able to proved to me that God doesn't exist, despite my asking.

Liamo57

No one knows if any God exists and it doesnt matter a fuke to anyone about what people believe in. Thats what caused most strife in the world. Women in the Muslim world are treated like shtie, wearing head scarves for fuke sake, why dont men wear scarves, the fukers

Pherekydes

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Whats the number of posts got to so with it?
I've over 15k posts on boards.
Your lack of faith is as much faith like it or not. No atheist has ever been able to proved to me that God doesn't exist, despite my asking.

Lack of faith is faith?

Okay then.

Do you believe in Frigg?

(The one true god)

Marhay70

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well we had the moving statues in the 80s

There was a guy on Radio with Dermot Monteith a few weeks ago who said he was in regular contact with fairies, on the Cooley Peninsula I think it was. Very insistent he was, no accounting for what people hear and see.:)

karlitob

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Faith in the absence of God without any proof of same and then being so convinced of its truth that everyone else is wrong.

Self belief to the extent that a supernatural entity isn't required or needed.

Then you’re the same as me. You’re just as much an atheist as I as you apply these ‘tenets’ to Zeus and Odin or any of the other 1000s of gods.

But seriously, you can apply those same ‘tenets’ to pink unicorns, or anything that there’s no evidence for.

karlitob

SouthWesterly wrote: »

No atheist has ever been able to proved to me that God doesn't exist, despite my asking.

Come on - you know you can’t prove a negative.

No Christian/Muslim/Jew/Miscellaneous has ever be able to prove to me that Pink Unicorns don’t exists, DESPITE my asking.

It’s why you can’t ‘prove’ innocence, only not guilty.


And besides, what sort of ego do you have to think it’s someones job to ‘prove’ to you that you’re made up god is not real. Why don’t you ask why don’t believe in Zeus? He had the same fervent believers as you do in your god. Surely he’s real and you’ve been praying to the wrong god all these years.

karlitob

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Youre entitled to your opinion.
what I'm saying is that if someone tells me their a Christian then I want to see what that word entails being out worked in their lives
If I don't see it I'll be as disbelieving as any atheist on this forum.

Btw, Jesus brought it further by saying hate was the same as murder. Lust, as adultery.
Didn't forget any of the commandments, just referred to those that effected those around us.

So you’ve decided which commandments are the important ones?

But still not speaking to the point - Two of your gods commandments (not mine) are thought crimes. What kind of god polices your mind?

Why does your god have an inferiority complex so much so that he made your first two commandments as a reminder to worship him. Seems strangely Vulnerable.


And lastly, if someone tells me that they don’t steal, lie or murder - I see them as a normal human being with inherent and innate morality.

karlitob

nthclare wrote: »

Great, I'm happy enough with that conclusion.
We're on solid ground now.

I find it hard to figure myself out,so it's good to know I've provided you with a stencil to prove your own point and there's more than two ways to sharpen a hook...to catch a fish.

I'm kind of perplexed as to why we set off respectfully discussing a subject and then out of nowhere you suggest I'm a trool.

I didn't undermine any of your post's.

Is it because I said something about unsolved mysteries and other things that are way out there ?

Or is it something else ?

What you said was so mad that I thought it must be trolling. You’ll also see that I apologised to the mod where I was wrong - something religions tend not to do.

Regardless, it’s not disrespectful to say I don’t know what your point is.

What are you trying to say about poultergeists?

SouthWesterly

Pherekydes wrote: »

Lack of faith is faith?

Okay then.

Do you believe in Frigg?

(The one true god)

Faith is belief. You believe and are convinced that God doesn't exist. That's nothing but faith.

As for Frigg, though she was cute in the Almighty Johnsons, I prefer the FSM ( pubh)

SouthWesterly

karlitob wrote: »

Come on - you know you can’t prove a negative.

No Christian/Muslim/Jew/Miscellaneous has ever be able to prove to me that Pink Unicorns don’t exists, DESPITE my asking.

It’s why you can’t ‘prove’ innocence, only not guilty.


And besides, what sort of ego do you have to think it’s someones job to ‘prove’ to you that you’re made up god is not real. Why don’t you ask why don’t believe in Zeus? He had the same fervent believers as you do in your god. Surely he’s real and you’ve been praying to the wrong god all these years.

I can tell you about Him. About His Characteristics, what He's done, how He's changed my life. I can live according to the ways He has said I should walk and hopefully you'll see something of what I've experienced. Can I show you God like I would a puppy.. No.

Why am I asking you to prove a negative? You positively say God doesn't exist. Prove it!

I never decided which commandments were important and which aren't. They all are but some are our relationship to Him. Others our relationship to other people. You'll see those ones much quicker than the first 3.

nthclare

karlitob wrote: »

What you said was so mad that I thought it must be trolling. You’ll also see that I apologised to the mod where I was wrong - something religions tend not to do.

Regardless, it’s not disrespectful to say I don’t know what your point is.

What are you trying to say about poultergeists?

I didn't say anything about poultergeists, but from where I'm standing it sounds like a type of poultry or a hybrid goose or something lol

What you said was so mad that I thought it was trolling, maybe I'm slightly dyslexic but can you put that in layman's terms please ?

I never said that it's disrespectful about you not knowing what my point is.

There's a glitch in communication here I think.

So you apologize to the mod.

Fair play, what did you do to the moderator, to have to apologize ?

Pherekydes

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Faith is belief. You believe and are convinced that God doesn't exist. That's nothing but faith.

No. Stop misrepresenting my position. Lack of faith is not faith. Lack of belief is not belief.

I do not believe god exists. I am not convinced that she exists.

You are deliberately misrepresenting my position.

SouthWesterly

Pherekydes wrote: »

No. Stop misrepresenting my position. Lack of faith is not faith. Lack of belief is not belief.

I do not believe god exists. I am not convinced that she exists.

You are deliberately misrepresenting my position.

You adamantly believe a negative. No misrepresentation there. You believe God doesn't exist.

karlitob

SouthWesterly wrote: »

You adamantly believe a negative. No misrepresentation there. You believe God doesn't exist.

You don’t believe in pink unicorns. Is your lack of belief in pink unicorns - your faith in their non-existence - the same as your faith in your god?