How do you convince people god exists?

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

. . . Freedom of religious expression is still a pretty novel concept in this country and most people have to accept that they'll have religion foisted on their kids via state funded education whether they like it or not.

I don't know if you were intending a contrast here, but freedom of religious expression is pretty much the last thing you would expect to protect against having religion foisted on people. The more people are free to express their religion, the more you can expect them to foist it on you. Freedom of religious expression doesn't mean you can't be bothered by evangelists; it means you get to disagree with what they say to you.

nthclare

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Thanks I think you've posted that as a response here to a few people.
I'm aware of that,as you seen in my post, hopefully you'll get your validation.

nthclare

smacl wrote: »

Pot, kettle? I would suggest that referring to the Christian God as a sand demon is precisely taking the piss out of the Christian belief system. In my opinion anyone coming onto an atheist and agnostic forum doing a hard sell on their religion should fully expect a fair bit of flak and rightly so. At the same time, comparing this to the actions of organised religion is a false dichotomy in the extreme. Freedom of religious expression is still a pretty novel concept in this country and most people have to accept that they'll have religion foisted on their kids via state funded education whether they like it or not.

No They won't have religion foisted on their kid's.
It wasn't foisted on my son and he was in school in the arse hole of East Clare.

Are you suggesting that today's teachers are going to instill religion on kid's.

I don't think you know the types of teachers that are out there now,a lot are secular to be honest.

karlitob

"nthclare wrote: »

Calling someone delusional or a bad person because they believe or don't believe in something is what causes division and resentment.

Building bridges and understanding is how cohesion can be valued.

I understand the human point that you’re trying to make.

To be fair, it is a delusion to believe things like burning bushes, angels and all sorts of other things. It’s as delusional as pink unicorns. I think that it is fair to ridicule a position or belief, particularly if it is ridiculous - such as antivacc, flat earth, selecting whatever gender you want etc etc. Religion doesn’t get off lightly just be people hold ‘deep and profound beliefs’

I prefer a world based on humanism, reason and enlightenment. I’m not sure how much more I want to understand about people’s belief systems. I want more people to abandon religion. But again, though reason, humanism and enlightenment.

nthclare

smacl wrote: »

Pot, kettle? I would suggest that referring to the Christian God as a sand demon is precisely taking the piss out of the Christian belief system. In my opinion anyone coming onto an atheist and agnostic forum doing a hard sell on their religion should fully expect a fair bit of flak and rightly so. At the same time, comparing this to the actions of organised religion is a false dichotomy in the extreme. Freedom of religious expression is still a pretty novel concept in this country and most people have to accept that they'll have religion foisted on their kids via state funded education whether they like it or not.

No They won't have religion foisted on their kid's.
It wasn't foisted on my son and he was in school in the arse hole of East Clare.

Are you suggesting that today's teachers are going to instill religion on kid's.

I don't think you know the types of teachers that are out there now,a lot are secular to be honest.

nthclare

karlitob wrote: »

I understand the human point that you’re trying to make.

To be fair, it is a delusion to believe things like burning bushes, angels and all sorts of other things. It’s as delusional as pink unicorns. I think that it is fair to ridicule a position or belief, particularly if it is ridiculous - such as antivacc, flat earth, selecting whatever gender you want etc etc. Religion doesn’t get off lightly just be people hold ‘deep and profound beliefs’

I prefer a world based on humanism, reason and enlightenment. I’m not sure how much more I want to understand about people’s belief systems. I want more people to abandon religion. But again, though reason, humanism and enlightenment.

But the situation is, people think differently.

Some people have experienced things that defy logic, the Atheists leaning scientists will say it's an illusion or delusion.

Their brains are programmed differently and they can't grasp much outside of the book's they're reading and the people they look up to like Dawkins or other atheist writer's.

I have seen a cryptoid one evening on a lonely backroad and it was plane to see this thing wasn't of this world, I don't drink alcohol or take any mind altering substance, or on any medication.

I wasn't tired or hyper either, it wasn't a dream.

UFO's and other strange things appearing and disappearing , there's an upsurge in Sasquatch sightings in America at the moment.

The Patterson clip is still being debated.

SouthWesterly

Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
It has its faith system, it has its tenets of belief.

I'm a Christian. Have been for 35 years. I'm an active part of a church.
I don't like religion, I've no time for it. It just doesn't work. Look around the world and if you've eyes, it'd fairly obvious. Whatever that religion may be.

Examine the teachings of Jesus Christ and obey them, then you've a different story and effect in the world.

Pray for those who despise you, love your enemy. Love others and give your life for them. That would change the world.
Honor your parents, don't kill, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't lie. Don't use the name of the God you say you believe in as a swear word.

Show me someone who lives like this and I'll believe they're a Christian.

If I don't see the life I won't believe what you tell me, even if you do read the Bible and preach from the pulpit every week.

Huntergonzo

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
It has its faith system, it has its tenets of belief.

I'm a Christian. Have been for 35 years. I'm an active part of a church.
I don't like religion, I've no time for it. It just doesn't work. Look around the world and if you've eyes, it'd fairly obvious. Whatever that religion may be.

Examine the teachings of Jesus Christ and obey them, then you've a different story and effect in the world.

Pray for those who despise you, love your enemy. Love others and give your life for them. That would change the world.
Honor your parents, don't kill, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't lie. Don't use the name of the God you say you believe in as a swear word.

Show me someone who loves like this and I'll believe they're a Christian.

If I don't see the life I won't believe what you tell me, even if you do read the Bible and preach from the pulpit every week.

More power to you, you've obviously found something which brings you great happiness and that's good, nobody should try to take that away from you.

Personally I think all religions are ridiculous and I don't believe in any gods.

I enjoy family, friends, work, sport, playing golf, reading, working out, pints, part time farming etc all bring great happiness and meaning to me, especially the pints ;-)

smacl

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
It has its faith system, it has its tenets of belief.

Really, care to list those tenets for us?

wench

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
It has its faith system, it has its tenets of belief.

I've clearly been doing Atheism wrong for the last 30 years, because I'm not familiar with them.

As far as I knew, all I had to do was not believe in gods, job done.


Would you care to lay out what they are?

Bannasidhe

nthclare wrote: »

I'm not very popular in this forum because I'll stick it to them and the moderators don't like anyone who's asking any awkward questions or suggesting anything that upsets a people who are a bit sensitive.

.

If by "sticking it to them" you mean moaning about moderation in various threads except the designated feedback thread then indeed.
You have been invited to address any issues to have with moderation etc in the thread for such things on numerous occasions but if memory serves you popped over there and went off on an off-topic waffle. This was after I spent some considerable time finding and moving your many many 'observations' on moderation to the feedback thread where they could be discussed.

And if by "upsets people who are a bit sensitive" you mean the nasty mods expect you to abide by the charter and warn you when you are indulging yourself in free flowing insults and rapping on how you are so much better than everyone one else then absolutely.

I hate to burst your bubble but you aren't even in my top ten of :rolleyes: look who is after posting in this forum.
I know before reading your posts what they will contain. It will be a lengthy dissertation about yourself, some contradictory contrarian opinions, a moan about moderation, and a sulk that the charter is applied to you.

Marhay70

nthclare wrote: »

No They won't have religion foisted on their kid's.
It wasn't foisted on my son and he was in school in the arse hole of East Clare.

Are you suggesting that today's teachers are going to instill religion on kid's.

I don't think you know the types of teachers that are out there now,a lot are secular to be honest.

It's not foisted by teachers per se, teachers are merely instruments of the BOM, usually directed by the PP.
The foisting is done by peer pressure, the fear of being seen as out of the ordinary or mainstream. This has been a fear among people for many hundreds of years so people are just happy to go along with the status quo to avoid embarrassment and conflict. The church are well aware of this and also aware that children are at their most impressionable during their early years at school, they will never voluntarily give this up.

Bannasidhe

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
It has its faith system, it has its tenets of belief.

I'm a Christian. Have been for 35 years. I'm an active part of a church.
I don't like religion, I've no time for it. It just doesn't work. Look around the world and if you've eyes, it'd fairly obvious. Whatever that religion may be.

Examine the teachings of Jesus Christ and obey them, then you've a different story and effect in the world.

Pray for those who despise you, love your enemy. Love others and give your life for them. That would change the world.
Honor your parents, don't kill, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't lie. Don't use the name of the God you say you believe in as a swear word.

Show me someone who lives like this and I'll believe they're a Christian.

If I don't see the life I won't believe what you tell me, even if you do read the Bible and preach from the pulpit every week.

No.

It isn't.
No.
It doesn't.

You are profoundly and completely incorrect.

A shared lack of belief in the existence of a deity does not constitute a 'tenet of belief'.

"I'm a Christian. Have been for 35 years. I'm an active part of a church.
I don't like religion, I've no time for it." - so much contradiction to unpick here I don't even know where to start.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't know if you were intending a contrast here, but freedom of religious expression is pretty much the last thing you would expect to protect against having religion foisted on people. The more people are free to express their religion, the more you can expect them to foist it on you. Freedom of religious expression doesn't mean you can't be bothered by evangelists; it means you get to disagree with what they say to you.

Not at all. If you live in a country dominated by a single religion, and you don't happen to be a member of that religion, freedom of religious expression enables you to assert your position. I have no problem with Evangelists, Hare Krishnas or Mormons knocking on my door, though when they try to argue the validity of their religion I'll either politely tell them I'm not interested or explain why I personally find their religion to be a nonsense. If on the other hand I send my daughter to a state funded school and her teachers try to teach her their religion in a non-critical fashion in opposition to her own beliefs, that runs contrary to freedom of religious expression. Case in point, my daughter practiced Buddhism at one point which one of her teachers stated was nonsense. It was only when my daughter pointed out that she considered Catholicism nonsense that we got called in to see the principal.

As you say yourself, freedom of religious expression includes being able to critically examine all and any religious beliefs.

robindch

nthclare wrote: »

[...] shaming people seems to be a human trait

nthclare wrote: »

[...] hopefully you'll get your validation.

nthclare wrote: »

Building bridges and understanding is how cohesion can be valued.

Seems like building bridges is something best done from the other side?

karlitob

nthclare wrote: »

But the situation is, people think differently.

Some people have experienced things that defy logic, the Atheists leaning scientists will say it's an illusion or delusion.

Their brains are programmed differently and they can't grasp much outside of the book's they're reading and the people they look up to like Dawkins or other atheist writer's.

I have seen a cryptoid one evening on a lonely backroad and it was plane to see this thing wasn't of this world, I don't drink alcohol or take any mind altering substance, or on any medication.

I wasn't tired or hyper either, it wasn't a dream.

UFO's and other strange things appearing and disappearing , there's an upsurge in Sasquatch sightings in America at the moment.

The Patterson clip is still being debated.

Ah, you’re trolling now. Good luck.

robindch

SouthWesterly wrote: »

I'm a Christian. Have been for 35 years. I'm an active part of a church. I don't like religion, I've no time for it. It just doesn't work

Could you explain how you reconcile your dislike of religion with your support over 35 years for a religion?

karlitob

smacl wrote: »

Not at all. If you live in a country dominated by a single religion, and you don't happen to be a member of that religion, freedom of religious expression enables you to assert your position. I have no problem with Evangelists, Hare Krishnas or Mormons knocking on my door, though when they try to argue the validity of their religion I'll either politely tell them I'm not interested or explain why I personally find their religion to be a nonsense. If on the other hand I send my daughter to a state funded school and her teachers try to teach her their religion in a non-critical fashion in opposition to her own beliefs, that runs contrary to freedom of religious expression. Case in point, my daughter practiced Buddhism at one point which one of her teachers stated was nonsense. It was only when my daughter pointed out that she considered Catholicism nonsense that we got called in to see the principal.

As you say yourself, freedom of religious expression includes being able to critically examine all and any religious beliefs.

I agree fully with all of this.

Though sometimes I find that asserting religious expression manifests in other religions being listened to ahead of non-religious. Special dispensations for CofI and Moslems ok protesting ‘ethos’ of school, despite the taxpayer paying for it.

In other words, religious expression presumes having a religion. I don’t see my self as non-religious in the way that I don’t see myself as non-pink unicornist. Perhaps just freedom of expression.

karlitob

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
It has its faith system, it has its tenets of belief.

I'm a Christian. Have been for 35 years. I'm an active part of a church.
I don't like religion, I've no time for it. It just doesn't work. Look around the world and if you've eyes, it'd fairly obvious. Whatever that religion may be.

Examine the teachings of Jesus Christ and obey them, then you've a different story and effect in the world.

Pray for those who despise you, love your enemy. Love others and give your life for them. That would change the world.
Honor your parents, don't kill, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't lie. Don't use the name of the God you say you believe in as a swear word.

Show me someone who lives like this and I'll believe they're a Christian.

If I don't see the life I won't believe what you tell me, even if you do read the Bible and preach from the pulpit every week.

Ah the whole ‘atheism is a religion’ argument.

Of course it’s not but It’s a funny argument to make for a religious person. Essentially you identify the negative aspects of religious and supplant this onto others in a mocking way. You’re undoing your own argument.

You’re as atheist as me - as presumably you don’t believe in Zeus or Odin or unicorns.

It’s funny how you’re a Christian and not a Muslim - must be something to do with where you’re born and your parents Religion. It’s either that or a magic man in the sky selected you specially.

There is no faith system in atheism. There are no tenets. What is your faith system in the absence of your belief in Odin?

I have a system of reason, logic and enlightenment.

karlitob

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
It has its faith system, it has its tenets of belief.

I'm a Christian. Have been for 35 years. I'm an active part of a church.
I don't like religion, I've no time for it. It just doesn't work. Look around the world and if you've eyes, it'd fairly obvious. Whatever that religion may be.

Examine the teachings of Jesus Christ and obey them, then you've a different story and effect in the world.

Pray for those who despise you, love your enemy. Love others and give your life for them. That would change the world.
Honor your parents, don't kill, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't lie. Don't use the name of the God you say you believe in as a swear word.

Show me someone who lives like this and I'll believe they're a Christian.

If I don't see the life I won't believe what you tell me, even if you do read the Bible and preach from the pulpit every week.

My best favourite argument. Since your presume that a magic man in the sky is the source of morality, and that all good things come from him or her or whatever pronoun they wish to be known by. Therefore, you condescend that I can believe whatever I want but really if I don’t murder someone then it’s must be god.

I’ve news for you. Morality is not sourced from a made up man in the sky.

You also forgot a few other commandments
- though shalt not have other gods before me
- though shaky not have strange idols.

For the creator of the universe, he (or she or they) must have a bit of an inferiority complex that the first two commandments - his 10 rules for living relate to this.


Not to mention the thought crime - though shalt not covet they neighbours wife and thy neighbours goods.

So I’m happy not to steal, lie or murder (the commandment is murder and not killing). And you can worry about a magic man policing your thoughts.

karlitob

wench wrote: »

I've clearly been doing Atheism wrong for the last 30 years, because I'm not familiar with them.

As far as I knew, all I had to do was not believe in gods, job done.

For your penance my child, say two Hail Marys and a few our fathers.

nthclare

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If by "sticking it to them" you mean moaning about moderation in various threads except the designated feedback thread then indeed.
You have been invited to address any issues to have with moderation etc in the thread for such things on numerous occasions but if memory serves you popped over there and went off on an off-topic waffle. This was after I spent some considerable time finding and moving your many many 'observations' on moderation to the feedback thread where they could be discussed.

And if by "upsets people who are a bit sensitive" you mean the nasty mods expect you to abide by the charter and warn you when you are indulging yourself in free flowing insults and rapping on how you are so much better than everyone one else then absolutely.

I hate to burst your bubble but you aren't even in my top ten of :rolleyes: look who is after posting in this forum.
I know before reading your posts what they will contain. It will be a lengthy dissertation about yourself, some contradictory contrarian opinions, a moan about moderation, and a sulk that the charter is applied to you.

Glad I'm not in the top ten lol

And I'm not in any bubble, I'm just another poster here on board's.

I never mentioned moderation,or expressed my opinion on any of you personally.

Yes myself yourself and other moderators have had private discussions over the years and that's in private.

We've resolved issues in private and came to fair conclusions, that's ok isn't it.

But me saying I can be unpopular here has no emotional impact on me, nothing wrong with freedom of expression and I'm not going down the rabbit hole with you, just because you think I'm having a go at moderators etc

I think you're reading into my post and taking on too much of the past instead of dealing with the here and now.

smacl

karlitob wrote: »

Ah, you’re trolling now. Good luck.

Mod warning: As per the charter, no referring to other posters as trolls. If you see a post you think is trolling please report it and leave it to the mods. Thanks for your attention.

nthclare

karlitob wrote: »

Ah, you’re trolling now. Good luck.

I'm not trolling,we were getting along ok until I said something different.

I don't believe in the Abrahamic God we have that in common,how come when I mention other things you say I'm trolling.

These discussions come up now and again, not everyone is old school here and sometimes it's ok to refresh or discuss outside the box.

Hotblack Desiato

antiskeptic wrote: »

Could you prove that?

It's nonsensical to suggest otherwise.

Otherwise you could claim literally anything and introduce it as "evidence" and there is no basis for a rational discussion.

Pretty much like your "you know god exists" nonsense thread actually...

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's nonsensical to suggest otherwise.

Otherwise you could claim literally anything and introduce it as "evidence" and there is no basis for a rational discussion.

Pretty much like your "you know god exists" nonsense thread actually...

Evidence is not proof though, the difference being that evidence is non-conclusive whereas proof is conclusive. We regularly arrive at conclusions by balancing the relative merits of evidence and counter evidence where we do not have a definitive proof at our disposal.

feargale

the_syco wrote: »

I'm aware that it isn't Odin in the picture.

Is it Billy Connolly?

Huntergonzo

nthclare wrote: »

But the situation is, people think differently.

Some people have experienced things that defy logic, the Atheists leaning scientists will say it's an illusion or delusion.

Their brains are programmed differently and they can't grasp much outside of the book's they're reading and the people they look up to like Dawkins or other atheist writer's.

I have seen a cryptoid one evening on a lonely backroad and it was plane to see this thing wasn't of this world, I don't drink alcohol or take any mind altering substance, or on any medication.

I wasn't tired or hyper either, it wasn't a dream.

UFO's and other strange things appearing and disappearing , there's an upsurge in Sasquatch sightings in America at the moment.

The Patterson clip is still being debated.

I'm honestly curious, what did you see? can you describe the figure and the setting.

I'm not taking the píss I just like hearing these stories.

I live in a semi-rural area (that is on a farm with no street lights etc, but near a busy road and with 15 miles of Dublin City Centre) and I've never seen anything, I feel a bit cheated actually! :-)

nthclare

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I'm honestly curious, what did you see? can you describe the figure and the setting.

I'm not taking the píss I just like hearing these stories.

I live in a semi-rural area (that is on a farm with no street lights etc, but near a busy road and with 15 miles of Dublin City Centre) and I've never seen anything, I feel a bit cheated actually! :-)

lol I'll send you a private message about it, I'm not going to start these discussions on this forum

Hotblack Desiato

nthclare wrote: »

Absolutely and shaming people seems to be a human trait, it's like a wheel, Atheists shaming the religious

I'm sure you'll have no trouble then posting up a few links of atheists doing just that?

What some religious people deserve shame for is committing, covering up or supporting those who covered up abuses. Not for being religious in itself.

And people taking the piss out of people's beliefs

What's wrong with that? A lot of religious beliefs and claims are objectively ridiculous. It's ridiculing a belief, not shaming a person, so once again you got nuthin' - so far.

As for ranting about so-called "SJWs" there seems to be an entire 'current affairs' forum devoted to that... :rolleyes: it's nothing to do with atheism one way or the other.

nthclare wrote: »

No They won't have religion foisted on their kid's.
It wasn't foisted on my son and he was in school in the arse hole of East Clare.

Are you suggesting that today's teachers are going to instill religion on kid's.

I don't think you know the types of teachers that are out there now,a lot are secular to be honest.

Oh wow so you have one anecdote about one child in one school and think that that proves some sort of point about the country as a whole?

Schools absolutely do push religion on kids and some do this even when parents have expressed the desire to opt out - which is a constitutional right no less.

Unless you complete the catholic or protestant course on religious instruction in teacher training college, and can convince a board of management that you actively practise the C or P religion as appropriate, you are unemployable as a teacher in 96% of Irish primary schools.

My kids are opted out of religion in a religious ethos school - believe me, teaching religion as fact is the daily norm in this school just like the vast majority of others. Their right to opt out has been mostly respected. I've heard plenty of cases in other schools where it was not respected at all. And at that, we had one teacher repeatedly make snippy comments to my child before religion lessons. 21st Century Ireland, ladies and gentlemen.