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Gemma not taking enforced retirement too well

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    #2792
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Kimsang wrote: »
    Markus Meechan was convicted under hate laws in Scotland for making a joke. He was in fact making a joke at the expense of nazis, but he was told by the court that context doesn't matter.

    Chelsea Russell was arrested for paying tribute to her dead friend by posting rap lyrics on a facebook page.

    What good does hate crime legislation do? It makes people feel better.
    You're concerned and worried about Meechan??? That says it all.


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    #2793
    bobmalooka
    Registered Users Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭bobmalooka


    Omackeral wrote: »
    We have scumbags getting off with suspended sentences for far more serious crimes than saying offensive words or adding insult to injury. I'd much rather that was dealt with to be honest.

    I wasn’t advocating an offensive word being a crime in its own right, not sure where the reasoning for your response came from.

    I also don’t see why wanting serious crimes not to get suspended sentences has to be mutually exclusive with crimes being motivated by hate (in a defined manner) being recognized as such.


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    #2794
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bobmalooka wrote: »
    I wasn’t advocating an offensive word being a crime in its own right, not sure where the reasoning for your response came from.

    I also don’t see why wanting serious crimes not to get suspended sentences has to be mutually exclusive with crimes being motivated by hate (in a defined manner) being recognized as such.

    I've said it before and will stand by it that nearly all crimes are motivated by a certain degree of hate


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    #2795
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Because I support justice being served. As a white person if I become a victim of crime I would like to see the perpetrator brought to justice. I would not like to see a situation where an <insert minority here> who gets attacked perpetrator gets a harsher sentence becuase of their race.

    You're a self-confessed racist. Of course you don't want fellow racists to get harsher sentences.


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    #2796
    jackboy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,494 ✭✭✭jackboy


    TaurenDruid wrote: »
    When someone attacks someone because of their nationality, sexuality, race or religion - it's a hate crime.

    When someone daubs swastikas or other graffiti on a place of worship - it's a hate crime.

    When someone urges violence against people or places because of their nationality, sexuality, race or religion or there are asylum seekers living there - it's a hate crime.

    When someone burns down a direct provision centre - it's a hate crime.

    It's not hard.

    It’s not hard now because they are all crimes that can be dealt with. With hate crime a judge has to try to determine the thoughts of the accused on top of the actions.


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    #2797
    bobmalooka
    Registered Users Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭bobmalooka


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I've said it before and will stand by it that nearly all crimes are motivated by a certain degree of hate

    Good man - see the protected categories under the equal stays act as a rough guide to the sort of categories recognised as at risk of discrimination


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    #2798
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,940 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    recedite wrote: »
    Blood and soil.
    These are the two main ways people get their citizenship.
    Jus soli and Jus sanguinis.
    Its correct that we cut back on jus soli (birthright or "law of the soil" citizenship) because it was being abused. That was done in a democratic referendum of the Irish people.


    That leaves Jus Sanguinis (right of blood) as the main one.

    We also have citizenship by naturalisation, when foreign people have been living here legally for 5 or more years.

    Oh then kiss me I’m Irish after all


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    #2799
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Overheal wrote: »
    Oh then kiss me I’m Irish after all
    Only if you're (a) female and (b) hot.


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    #2800
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    You're concerned and worried about Meechan??? That says it all.

    In 2018 Meechan joined UKIP and we're supposed to pretend the Nazi salute was a joke? :rolleyes:


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    #2801
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    You're concerned and worried about Meechan??? That says it all.

    do you think its acceptable that a man ended up in front of a judge for teaching a dog to do a hitler salute for humour. It is not a sane or just world where that commands a court appearance.


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    #2802
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,586 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Who decides what constitutes a hate-crime? Is it black and white, excuse the pun, or is it on a sliding spectrum. Would jurors, if required, by asked to judge for themselves? Would there have to be people of various colours, belief systems and ability on duty?
    Same as any other crime, which works fine in many other jurisdictions.



    The Gardai/police investigate and prepare a file, the DPP or equivalent decides if the matter should go to Court, the Judge or the jury (depending on the seriousness) decide if the accused is guilty.


    It works fine in many other countries.


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    #2803
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    do you think its acceptable that a man ended up in front of a judge for teaching a dog to do a hitler salute for humour. It is not a sane or just world where that commands a court appearance.

    He didn't end up in front of a judge for teaching the dog a salute, he ended up in court because he put it on YouTube but continue on with your bs if you like.

    What about him joining UKIP? That doesn't show a bias in anyway no?


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    #2804
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    do you think its acceptable that a man ended up in front of a judge for teaching a dog to do a hitler salute for humour. It is not a sane or just world where that commands a court appearance.
    We're back on Stephen's favourite topic now...motive.
    Fawlty towers hitler salute - humourous
    Comedian who trains dog to do hitler salute and joins party which has an active nazi as an advisor - not humourous


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    #2805
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    We're back on Stephen's favourite topic now...motive.
    Fawlty towers hitler salute - humourous
    Comedian who trains dog to do hitler salute and joins party which has an active nazi as an advisor - not humourous

    the court case was long before ukip , and who is the active nazi advisor ?


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    #2806
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    pinkyeye wrote: »
    He didn't end up in front of a judge for teaching the dog a salute, he ended up in court because he put it on YouTube but continue on with your bs if you like.

    What about him joining UKIP? That doesn't show a bias in anyway no?

    explain to me how UKIP as a political party and their policies in any way resemble The NSDAP (Nazi) party ?


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    #2807
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,033 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Because I support justice being served. As a white person if I become a victim of crime I would like to see the perpetrator brought to justice. I would not like to see a situation where an <insert minority here> who gets attacked perpetrator gets a harsher sentence becuase of their race.


    Out of curiosity - do you think all "black" folk are equivalent and equal to the "white" folk?


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    #2808
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    the court case was long before ukip , and who is the active nazi advisor ?
    There's so many I never know where to start:


    https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2313229/tommy-robinson-becomes-ukip-advisor
    http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/ukip-mep-in-hitler-advice-row-11363925881904


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    #2809
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Same as any other crime, which works fine in many other jurisdictions.



    The Gardai/police investigate and prepare a file, the DPP or equivalent decides if the matter should go to Court, the Judge or the jury (depending on the seriousness) decide if the accused is guilty.


    It works fine in many other countries.

    Can you give examples of hate crime laws work well in order jurisdictions? Look at the UK where the hate crime laws clearly do not work as the police seem more interested in policing offensive tweets despite the fact the UK is in the midst of a murder epidemic.

    People are wondering how can it be proven that a crime is a hate crime. Is it really worthwhile wasting Garda time and/or the time of the DPP and courts investigating whether hate crime when they should be taking care of other crime.


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    #2810
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    There's so many I never know where to start:


    https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2313229/tommy-robinson-becomes-ukip-advisor
    http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/ukip-mep-in-hitler-advice-row-11363925881904

    a man who 'emulates hitlers speaking style' according to somebody at bt, not exactly a hard hitting news source,

    and tommy robinson is just an islamaphobic idiot, they invited him to make one submission about muslim rape gangs. He wasn't even a member and not a nazi even by his own affiliations.

    also going by the news sources youre digging up, you clearly just googled 'ukip nazi' and are posting whatever links stick. I don't believe for one second that the digitalspy forums and bt news are regular reads for yourself.


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    #2811
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Out of curiosity - do you think all "black" folk are equivalent and equal to the "white" folk?

    Yes


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    #2812
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    a man who 'emulates hitlers speaking style' according to somebody at bt, not exactly a hard hitting news source,

    and tommy robinson is just an islamaphobic idiot, they invited him to make one submission about muslim rape gangs. He wasn't even a member and not a nazi even by his own affiliations.

    also going by the news sources youre digging up, you clearly just googled 'ukip nazi' and are posting whatever links stick. I don't believe for one second that the digitalspy forums and bt news are regular reads for yourself.
    As I said I never know where to start:
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-nazi-nigel-farage-proudly-4761109
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2630582/Ukip-engulfed-fresh-extremism-storm-one-candidate-pictured-showing-Nazi-themed-tattoos-suggests-shooting-poofters.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/11/leadership-hopeful-warns-wrong-leader-could-turn-ukip-into-uks-nazi-party-henry-bolton


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    #2813
    Kimsang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Kimsang


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    do you think its acceptable that a man ended up in front of a judge for teaching a dog to do a hitler salute for humour. It is not a sane or just world where that commands a court appearance.

    This is what the judge said at his sentencing:
    “On the whole evidence, including your own, applying the law as made by Parliament and interpreted by the most senior courts in this land, I found it proved that the video you posted, using a public communications network, was grossly offensive and contained menacing, anti-Semitic and racist material"

    What other material should be censored? Monty Python, The Producers, anything George Carlin.. etc.. this skit by Jonathan Pie..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti2bVS40cz0

    "It was a joke you *****" - Jonathan Pie
    "We're not allowed to make fun of Nazis, in case it gets misinterpreted" -Jonathan Pie


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    #2814
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    There's so many I never know where to start:


    https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2313229/tommy-robinson-becomes-ukip-advisor
    http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/ukip-mep-in-hitler-advice-row-11363925881904

    And I was accused of whataboutery now your bringing up Tommy Robinson


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    #2815
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Stephen15 wrote: »

    You don't know exactly what the trauma is for a person who is a victim of crime. A member of a minority group who is a victim of a prejudice motivated crime could be a stronger person who is less traumatised than an Irish person who is a victim of a non prejudice motivated crime.

    We do know that though. There is a lot of evidence out there and it is widely accepted that hate crime is likely to have a more significant impact on its victims than non-hate motivated offences. We also know that many states and the EU specifically legally recognise hate crime because of the impact of hate crime generally on individuals, groups and society generally. It is not as if the idea of hate crime has been plucked out of nowhere for simply no reason.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2816
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    explain to me how UKIP as a political party and their policies in any way resemble The NSDAP (Nazi) party ?

    Ah stop would ya. :D:D:D:D


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    #2817
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    We do know that though. There is a lot of evidence out there and it is widely accepted that hate crime is likely to have a more significant impact on its victims than non-hate motivated offences. We also know that many states and the EU specifically legally recognise hate crime because of the impact of hate crime generally on individuals, groups and society generally. It is not as if the idea of hate crime has been plucked out of nowhere for simply no reason.

    Well perhaps the impact on the victim can be taken into account on an individual case by case basis which is then taken into account when it comes to sentencing. If it is the case that a prejudice motivated crime or whatever you like to call it has a greater impact on the victim then that should be met with a greater sentence for the perpetrator so effectively that achieves the same result as your proposed hate crime laws.


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    #2818
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Well perhaps the impact on the victim can be taken into account on an individual case by case basis which is then taken into account when it comes to sentencing. If it is the case that a prejudice motivated crime or whatever you like to call it has a greater impact on the victim then that should be met with a greater sentence for the perpetrator so effectivelynthat achieves the same result as your proposed hate crime laws.

    So why do you have a problem with hate crime laws then?


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    #2819
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    pinkyeye wrote: »
    Ah stop would ya. :D:D:D:D

    its a valid question, you made the claim, go on. using written policy information, show me the comparible manifesto's between ukip and the nazi party


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    #2820
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Well perhaps the impact on the victim can be taken into account on an individual case by case basis which is then taken into account when it comes to sentencing. If it is the case that a prejudice motivated crime or whatever you like to call it has a greater impact on the victim then that should be met with a greater sentence for the perpetrator so effectivelynthat achieves the same result as your proposed hate crime laws.

    Why? Why do you refuse to acknowledge that there is wider impact not just on individuals. Its kind of almost like you feel that your whiteness shouldnt be seen as inferior. Its almost as well like you refuse to acknowledge that hate crimes exist and refuse to acknowledge their impact. Why is that?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2821
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Same as any other crime, which works fine in many other jurisdictions.

    That's grand. For me though, (and I work within our justice system, FWIW), I feel there are many more urgent issues that need addressing before anything of this nature is considered or necessary.


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