Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Topgear on Dave · 22-11-2018 9:16pm

rogue-entity wrote: »

Fishing and Agriculture may provide jobs in coastal and rural Ireland but I would wonder how many of the younger generation are all that interested in working in those sectors - hard work with less pay than what can be earned elsewhere.

I don't have figures to hand but I suspect far more are employed in high-skilled/high-paying work and not just in traditional (and capped) professions. I'm not sure there's the same appetite for working in curry houses or doing hard work that doesn't pay the same as a job in fintech, for example.

I have a colleague from Killybegs, comes from generations of fishermen... Father had own boat etc etc

He's told us colourful and unromantic stories about it. It is not for him, hes an electronic engineer in a steady factory job and I doubt he could be got on to a boat even at gunpoint :pac:

First Up · 22-11-2018 9:29pm

Hurrache wrote: »

It'll be voted against at the first vote, May will ask the EU to change the wording but the context won't differ. She'll come back saying she' got further concessions, and between that and their backs right against the wall of a no deal Brexit due to the time that elapsed, it'll go through the second time. That's my bet.

There is zero chance they will entertain any farting around to appease the Tory loony fringe or anyone else.

There will not be another round of negotiation.

Hurrache · 22-11-2018 9:39pm

I specifically said they're won't be any changes to anything other than perhaps wording or phrases

Akrasia · 22-11-2018 9:41pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Fishing is of minor economic importance but is a totemic political issue.

Where would the UK be now we're it not for Brexit? The thing to remember about alternative histories is that they are fiction.

What about real history. The Tories and the miners in the 80s.

They're prepared to destroy the UK economy for a generation to pander to a few fishermen but back then they were prepared to face down a miner strike in order to defeat the unions.

The fishing industry argument is propaganda. The Tories or Brexiters don't care about the fishing industry

judeboy101 · 22-11-2018 9:42pm

Hurrache wrote: »

I specifically said they're won't be any changes to anything other than perhaps wording or phrases

in order to change a word or phase, one must negotiate its change. negotiations take time.

First Up · 22-11-2018 9:44pm

Hurrache wrote: »

I specifically said they're won't be any changes to anything other than perhaps wording or phrases

You think the Brexit fanatics will roll over for a few cosmetic changes? In any case, any changes - big or small - would have to be agreed by all 27 governments.

Hurrache · 22-11-2018 9:57pm

First Up wrote: »

You think the Brexit fanatics will roll over for a few cosmetic changes? In any case, any changes - big or small - would have to be agreed by all 27 governments.

They'll try sell it as a change and victory. It's no different than the "de-dramatisation".

Anyway, that bruhaha over the claimed technological solutions for the border that we all knew didn't exist? Well look what happens when technological solutions do get considered
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1065626805221101570?s=19

Water John · 22-11-2018 10:07pm

TM may be looking more for soft LB votes to get the Deal through on the 2nd run.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-11-2018 10:39pm

Water John wrote: »

But fishing is very important in localised areas. Politicians incl Tory ones are quite sensitive to its future,

Particularly coastal Scottish Tory MPs.

The problem is that Small-scale coastal fishermen, who operate 80% of Scottish boats, have to make do with 1% of quotas.

You see there's been a land grab (sorry). The UK have sold off the fishing rights and aren't enforcing the existing rules. Inshore boats where the jobs and votes are, just don't get anything close to a good slice of the quotas. Like immigration most of the problem could have been solved, send home anyone who can't support themselves after 3 months, give inshore fishermen the same consideration as law breaking foreign controlled ones.

DSC00104_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqeo_i_u9APj8RuoebjoAHt0k9u7HhRJvuo-ZLenGRumA.jpg?imwidth=450

DSC00104_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqeo_i_u9APj8RuoebjoAHt0k9u7HhRJvuo-ZLenGRumA.jpg?imwidth=450

This 16 foot long dingy that spend most of it's time tied up had a fifth of the annual South West quota, ie. 1,500 tons. A lot more than the local inshore fishermen.

Foreign trawlers aren't banned for flouting rules, doing that could free up quota very quickly. Rules on landing fish in the UK rather than the Netherlands are ignored. With free movement not a huge problem apart from all the missed jobs, but post Brexit it could be tariff evasion.

If you read one article try this
Around half of England’s quota is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic, or Spanish interests

Small, coastal boats under 10 metres, which make up 77% of the English fleet, currently have the right to catch 3% of the total English catch of quota-controlled fish such as cod, haddock, plaice, sole, herring and mackerel. One super-trawler, British-flagged but ultimately Dutch-owned, has the right to catch 94% of the English herring quota in the Atlantic and North Sea.

Even if the UK got full control of fishing , there are six countries like ourselves with pre EU fishing rights. Norway expects access to UK waters and visa versa, so even if the quotas were somehow given back to the voters the UK still wouldn't control it's own waters.

More jobs at stake too
The outcome of the EU-UK negotiations will determine if processing Norwegian fish in the UK will remain a profitable business model.

Someone should remind the DUP that more than half of Northern Ireland’s quota is hoarded onto a single trawler.

Also the eel fishermen of Ulster may have problems as Brexit will affect the quotas.

RobertKK · 22-11-2018 10:55pm

Bloomberg being pretty brutal about where the UK stands...

https://twitter.com/brexit/status/1065695689580208130?s=21

First Up · 22-11-2018 10:56pm

Water John wrote: »

TM may be looking more for soft LB votes to get the Deal through on the 2nd run.

They get one shot at this; Brussels or the 27 have made that clear.

May has gone "all in" for this because she has no choice. Its not inconceivable that there's enough sanity to be found between both the Torys and Labour to get it through but it would be at the cost of fracturing both parties, prrobably beyond repair.

Interesting times.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-11-2018 10:56pm

Water John wrote: »

Nicola Sturgeon gives a good assessment. Fisheries will be bargained away in future negotiations.
Fisheries was my one regret that we sacraficed in 1973.

Agriculture was huge here in the 1970's. The farming vote could be counted on. The fishermen never had a chance to influence.

At one point Larry Goodman controlled 4% of our GDP.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006239.shtml

In 1978 PAYE had accounted for 87% of all tax and in the 1979 Budget, the Fianna FAil Government introduced a 2% levy on the value of farm produce. It was vigorously resisted by the Irish Farmers Association and the Government caved in and withdrew the measure.

PAYE workers had paid 87pc of the nation's tax, £1,800m, compared with £20m paid by farmers.

In 1980, for example, 700,000 people marched throughout the country, 400,000 of them in Dublin, to protest against the unfairness of the tax system on PAYE workers.

The marches eventually led to reform of a system where

First Up · 22-11-2018 10:56pm

Water John wrote: »

TM may be looking more for soft LB votes to get the Deal through on the 2nd run.

They get one shot at this; Brussels and the 27 have made that clear.

May has gone "all in" for this because she has no choice. Its not inconceivable that there's enough sanity to be found between both the Torys and Labour to get it through but it would be at the cost of fracturing both parties, prrobably beyond repair.

Interesting times.

funkey_monkey · 22-11-2018 11:07pm

Pop goes ni is on bbc2 ni now.
We have come quote some distance...

Dyr · 22-11-2018 11:11pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Bloomberg being pretty brutal about where the UK stands...

https://twitter.com/brexit/status/1065695689580208130?s=21

There was a headline on the BBC website today that read "Post-Brexit: Will a new leader of the EU emerge?"

Basically claiming that Ze Germans are vexed to lose Britain because now they're stuck with the lazy French and Italians

Frank Bullitt · 22-11-2018 11:19pm

https://twitter.com/sanchezcastejon/status/1065719004923342850

Looks like the Brits can start pointing the finger at the Spanish as well as the Irish now.

An Ciarraioch · 22-11-2018 11:36pm

Just to clarify, Madrid can only veto the political declaration, not the WA?

RobertKK · 22-11-2018 11:41pm

It looks like a lot of countries with historical grievances might use Brexit to settle some scores.

RobertKK · 22-11-2018 11:42pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Just to clarify, Madrid can only veto the political declaration, not the WA?

The future trade agreement.

cryptocurrency · 22-11-2018 11:43pm

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/sanchezcastejon/status/1065719004923342850

Looks like the Brits can start pointing the finger at the Spanish as well as the Irish now.

And the EU. Merkel called for the end of sovereignty.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1048913/brexit-news-angela-merkel-germany-eu-sovereignty-uk
She told the event, titled ‘Parliamentarianism Between Globalisation and National Sovereignty’: "In this day nation states must today - should today, I say - be ready to give up sovereignty.

Between this and the Army talk the EU is getting dangerous. I hope Washington and London are talking about to to nip this who thing in the bud.

An Ciarraioch · 23-11-2018 12:00am

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/sanchezcastejon/status/1065719004923342850

Looks like the Brits can start pointing the finger at the Spanish as well as the Irish now.

And the EU. Merkel called for the end of sovereignty.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1048913/brexit-news-angela-merkel-germany-eu-sovereignty-uk
She told the event, titled ‘Parliamentarianism Between Globalisation and National Sovereignty’: "In this day nation states must today - should today, I say - be ready to give up sovereignty.

Between this and the Army talk the EU is getting dangerous. I hope Washington and London are talking about to to nip this who thing in the bud.

Obviously, if there's to be EU reform, whether it's in relation to foreign policy, fiscal reform or institutional restructuring, then some transfer of sovereignty to Brussels will be required in the process. There's also an argument for national parliaments having a consultative role in the formulation of EU legislation, but the impetus for change has to be primarily at European level.

amacca · 23-11-2018 12:08am

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Obviously, if there's to be EU reform, whether it's in relation to foreign policy, fiscal reform or institutional restructuring, then some transfer of sovereignty to Brussels will be required in the process. There's also an argument for national parliaments having a consultative role in the formulation of EU legislation, but the impetus for change has to be primarily at European level.

Is it not misgiuded to fan flames with speeches including statements about nations giving up sovereignty though regardless of whether you believe it to be true or not?

I see a statement like that it immediately makes me feel uneasy.

I'd imagine a significant cohort of the population would have reservations even if it would stabilise the euro etc etc.....deep down you feel the amount of influence you can have in your own country reducing and the real power residing even further away and harder to influence and likely much slower to react give the fact its making decisions for such a disparate group of countrirs × not necessarily making decisions best suited for your country.....it makes me instinctively uneasy whether that's justified or not.

kalych · 23-11-2018 12:10am

amacca wrote: »

Is it not misgiuded to fan flames with speeches including statements about nations giving up sovereignty though regardless of whether you believe it to be true or not?

I see a statement like that it immediately makes me feel uneasy.

Why so?

Anthracite · 23-11-2018 12:15am

cryptocurrency wrote: »

And the EU. Merkel called for the end of sovereignty.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1048913/brexit-news-angela-merkel-germany-eu-sovereignty-uk
She told the event, titled ‘Parliamentarianism Between Globalisation and National Sovereignty’: "In this day nation states must today - should today, I say - be ready to give up sovereignty.

Between this and the Army talk the EU is getting dangerous. I hope Washington and London are talking about to to nip this who thing in the bud.

More nonsense from a rubbish source. Are you seriously claiming that Merkel was telling the EU its countries must give up ALL sovereignty?

More absolute bullsh!t suited only for your Guido Fawkes audience.

amacca · 23-11-2018 12:17am

Did she say the bit about giving up sovereignty or not?

Imreoir2 · 23-11-2018 12:18am

cryptocurrency wrote: »

And the EU. Merkel called for the end of sovereignty.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1048913/brexit-news-angela-merkel-germany-eu-sovereignty-uk
She told the event, titled ‘Parliamentarianism Between Globalisation and National Sovereignty’: "In this day nation states must today - should today, I say - be ready to give up sovereignty.

Between this and the Army talk the EU is getting dangerous. I hope Washington and London are talking about to to nip this who thing in the bud.

Who the hell are Washington or London to decide how European states cooperate with each other? You think you defend sovereignty and yet wish for external parties to decide what EU members do? Madness!

Junkyard Tom · 23-11-2018 12:28am

cryptocurrency wrote: »

She told the event, titled ‘Parliamentarianism Between Globalisation and National Sovereignty’: "In this day nation states must today - should today, I say - be ready to give up sovereignty.

A small state like Ireland voluntarily pools our sovereignty, with other EU states, on vital factors such as trade to increase our clout in the world, the backstop is a good example of this.

I'm sure the Italians, Spanish, and Greeks would be happy to 'give up' sovereignty on migrant crisis they've been exposed to.

Capt'n Midnight · 23-11-2018 12:34am

Gintonious wrote: »

Looks like the Brits can start pointing the finger at the Spanish as well as the Irish now.

They say a good compromise leaves everyone equally dissatisfied. This is way better than having the EU side look happy with the deal.

With the French and the Fishing and the Spanish on Gibraltar that's half way towards the population criterion for the qualified majority. So it's like the ERG not being able to trigger the leadership contest.

Not an issue for now, but it's a reminder for the future when they'll need a unanimous vote.

Inquitus · 23-11-2018 12:44am

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Who the hell are Washington or London to decide how European states cooperate with each other? You think you defend sovereignty and yet wish for external parties to decide what EU members do? Madness!

The ignore button is there for a purpose, and cryptocrapper is one of them.

Larbre34 · 23-11-2018 12:46am

Just out of long day away from the news, so to catch up am I right in saying that as of now Britain has...

Negotiated itself to either economic armageddon OR loss of sovereignty over two of its territories / protectorates in order to avail of more limited access to its most convenient markets and to accept a whole range of regulations, which is currently has a say in, but won't after the fact?

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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