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The Irish Language and the Irish Government
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »If all you have is emotion, hyperbole and strawmen, you have no argument.
I agree. I wouldn't engage in any of it.Emotion is fine by me.
So you won't respond? Okay.0 -
Hotblack Desiato wrote: »Yep. 2 different words.
This responce is nothing more than a display of your ignorence I am sorry to say.0 -
I think you are missing the point. What I am arguing is that Irish people have chosen to relegate the Irish language to secondary status in Irish culture by not speaking it. If Irish is to regain primary status (arguably it only artificially ever had primary status) in Irish culture, then more people need to speak it.
The numbers speaking, the numbers watching TV, the numbers studying at third-level etc. all speak to a language in decline, of fading relevance and of indifference and insignificance to modern-day Irish culture.
Would you mind sharing the figurs you are basing your claims upon?0 -
Hotblack Desiato wrote: »It's the Irish language lobby who associate it with politics, even the suggestion by Enda Kenny a few years back that it be optional at LC was met with fury. So it's easier for politicians to keep their heads down.
The Irish language has sufficient support amongst the public to change public policy and yet the people don't care about it at all and it is irrelevant. Surely only one of these things can be true?0 -
Matt Barrett wrote:What attitude, thinking our language should receive funding? Fair enough. You must, IMO, learn about it in school up to Junior cert. So do you suggest these completely neglected Irish speakers aren't getting enough funding? Who is all this money going to so? I have not been to New Grange in many years. I do not want it turned into a lidl.
Yes I am saying Irish speakers don't get the funding(there are examples earlier in the thread) they need because money for Irish is being wasted on people who have no interest in actually using the language.
For me supporting the language means supporting the people who speak the language. I would be of the view that a large amount of money is spent on Irish via the education system that doesn't help the language at best and damages it at worst. Most people once they finish school will never interact with the language in a substantive way for the rest of their lives. A large amount of money is spending over time in schools and indirectly in summer grind schools(Gaeltacht camps). Ultimately on people who have no interest in the language. I would far prefer see that money spent directly on enabling people who speak Irish to access government and related services efficiently.
You mention stuff like Newgrange. As far as I aware no other branch of Irish heritage receives anywhere close to the level of money that Irish does. It also says alot about the language that there is even a need to compare it to a 5000 year old monument. Even mentioning how long Irish has been spoken sends out a message sounds like saying it's a language of the past not the future. Surely Irish has a better future that been a fun little script that people turn up to a museum every now and then to look at.
For the language to survive it has to find away to exist in a functional state in the Ireland of today not 100/200/300 years ago. That is a challenge, given the modern medium environment, Internet, Netflix, Hollywood etc there is a vast cateolgue of English language entertainment even before you remember it's the global language of business and everything that comes with that. Money spent on Irish needs to spend in a targeted fashion to extract the best return possible for the language otherwise it will struggle to survive.0 -
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Imreoir2 wrote:The Irish language has sufficient support amongst the public to change public policy and yet the people don't care about it at all and it is irrelevant. Surely only one of these things can be true?
Because there to push public policy you don't need to have a majority. A small minority can push public policy on a topic if the majority don't care. You have a small number of people who want to keep Irish on the leaving cert and who would vote against a party if it was changed but the rest of the population wouldn't care. So from a politicians point of view they were never going to to win votes(people don't care) only lose votes(from the people who do care) if they made the change. It's a fairly simple decision for a politician.
This situation is not unique to Irish, the UK brexit referendum is a good example. A small minority of anti EU politicians were able to get a referendum on a topic that wasn't top of the list of peoples concerns(at least before the referendum)0 -
The Irish language has sufficient support amongst the public to change public policy and yet the people don't care about it at all and it is irrelevant. Surely only one of these things can be true?
Delete the words "the public" and replace with "lobby groups".Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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This responce is nothing more than a display of your ignorence I am sorry to say.
I wasn't the one making the very silly argument that because Irish (the word for the language, in English) is spelled the same as Irish (the word for the nationality, in English) therefore somehow all Irish (nationality) people must identify closely with the Irish language.
As you say yourself -Gaeilge, which is the language of the Irish people (Na Gaeil).
Those are two different, related but different, words. The 'argument' which exists in the English language that Irish (language) = Irish (nationality) doesn't exist. It was a very weak argument to begin with.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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It's this attitude that is killing the language. Large amounts of money are being spent on the assumption if you are Irish you must speak it/have a responsibility to know a few words. Instead of recognising that most Irish peoples affection for Irish doesn't extend beyond empty platitudes. Actual Irish speakers, the people who are responsible for keeping the language alive are completely neglected and do not get near the level of resources to function using Irish in daily life.
I think the Irish language, just like other aspects of Irish culture and heritage, forms part of the common heritage and birthright of all Irish people, north and south. That does not mean that all Irish people do, or should speak Irish, merely that it is an important part of their cultural heritage.
The sociolinguistic relationship between the reality of peoples lives, and the language they speak is very complicated. Having a genuine commitment to and love of a language does not by itself mean that you will aquire the ability to speak it fluently, neither does the ability to speak a language fluently necessairly that you have a genuine commitment or love of that language. To reduce the question down to a simplistic equation that says that all people who do not speak the language fluently have no more then empty platitudes for the language is needlessly cynical and ultimatly misguided. Without the support of the majority of the population, Irish would not have the status that it does.
It is also not true to say that fluent speakers are neglected. While there are certainly problems with the supports available, it is a false ditchonomey to pit learners against fluent speakers. An undermining of the status of the language and a reduction in supports for learners would not see greater resources being made available to actual speakers, but rather the opposit.0 -
I regard it as nothing short of fascism the idea that people who regard themselves as keepers of the 'national identity' can determine what the 'national culture' is, and try to make everyone conform to that through the education system (albeit, failing spectacularly badly at great taxpayer expense.)
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »Delete the words "the public" and replace with "lobby groups".
Lobby groups that don't have either sufficient public support behind them, or very deep pockets, are not effective at changing public policy. I can asure you that Irish language groups do not have very deep pockets.0 -
Hotblack Desiato wrote: »I regard it as nothing short of fascism the idea that people who regard themselves as keepers of the 'national identity' can determine what the 'national culture' is, and try to make everyone conform to that through the education system (albeit, failing spectacularly badly at great taxpayer expense.)
This level of misconception is why I do not take your opinion seriously. There are no "keepers of the national identity" and no one is being made to conform to anything.0 -
That does not mean that all Irish people do, or should speak Irish
Yet the state forces it upon people throughout the first and second level education system in an entirely counterproductive way.Without the support of the majority of the population, Irish would not have the status that it does.
Can we put that to the test with a referendum on the constitutional status of Irish?
Can you imagine the outcry from the same lobby groups who screamed so loudly when the idea of allowing Leaving Cert pupils who don't want to learn Irish to stop learning Irish was mooted?
The lobby groups given taxpayers' money to tell the government what the lobby groups think :rolleyes:Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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This level of misconception is why I do not take your opinion seriously. There are no "keepers of the national identity" and no one is being made to conform to anything.
Where is the right to opt out of learning Irish then?Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Yes I am saying Irish speakers don't get the funding(there are examples earlier in the thread) they need because money for Irish is being wasted on people who have no interest in actually using the language.
I have come accross this strange idea that there is some pot of money earmarked for the Irish language. If Irish is made optional in the education system, not one red cent extra will be made available for the Irish language elsewhere. If TG4 is abolished, Údarás na Gaeltacht won't get a budget increase as a result, or vice versa, thats not how budgets work.
There is no "money for Irish", there is x amount of a departments budget that is spent on a particular thing that relates to Irish. If it stops being spent on that particular thing, it will be spent on someting else that may or may not (probably not) relate in some way to the Irish language.
You may think that a given thing related to Irish that money is spent on is a waste, but don't kid yourself that if money was not spent on that thing, that this money would be available for some other unrelated Irish language project that you happen to favor.For me supporting the language means supporting the people who speak the language. I would be of the view that a large amount of money is spent on Irish via the education system that doesn't help the language at best and damages it at worst. Most people once they finish school will never interact with the language in a substantive way for the rest of their lives. A large amount of money is spending over time in schools and indirectly in summer grind schools(Gaeltacht camps). Ultimately on people who have no interest in the language. I would far prefer see that money spent directly on enabling people who speak Irish to access government and related services efficiently.
As I have said above, removing Irish compleatly from the education system will not mean there is more money available to be spent on Irish elsewhere, the schools will still need to be opened, children will still need to be taught someting during that time, the department of Education won't be handing over that part of its budget to be spent on the Irish language or anything else.
Reducing the amount of money spent on Irish in one area does not mean more money is available to be spent on Irish in another area, it just means less money is spent on Irish overall.
Of course this does not mean that all money spent on Irish is justified or that money spent on Irish would not be better being spent on something else. But the arguement that money spent on Irish in the education system can be pulled and moved to something else such as supports for fluent Irish speakers outside the education system is simply false.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote: »But it is. You don't have to like it.
What's pompous or arrogant about the truth?
There is nothing pompous or arrogant about the truth.
But the truth is the language is declining.
The truth is the numbers speaking it are declining.
The truth is that it was artificially sustained by FF governments for years.
The truth is that it isn't a big a part of our culture and heritage as you think.
The truth is that millions of Irish people don't care enough about the language to speak it, to watch it on TG4, to even learn it in school
The truth is that there are Irish people who are using the language to distinguish themselves from the new Irish and to put up barriers in our society.0 -
Hotblack Desiato wrote: »I regard it as nothing short of fascism the idea that people who regard themselves as keepers of the 'national identity' can determine what the 'national culture' is, and try to make everyone conform to that through the education system (albeit, failing spectacularly badly at great taxpayer expense.)
Who regards themselves as a keeper of the national identity?
Im am Irish speaker in a family of English monolinguals. I don’t look at them with scorn as lesser Gaels because of it.
Also, this argument could be made about any number of subjects. Why are we taught history in school? Is it also part of a fascist agenda? Should we avoid Irish poets in English class? Is that also fascism?
This rhetoric is unhelpful and isn’t conducive to civilised debate.0 -
You keep trying to put words in my mouth. I have not said, and do not believe that someone who does not speak Irish is less Irish than someone who does speak Irish. Please do not repeat this lie again.
If the statement that Irish is native to this island and as such is part of the common herritage of the people of this island, ie. the Irish language is ours as a nation, provokes an emotional response in you, that is your issue. You are the one with the baggage here, I am simply stating a fact.
You make three statements here - 1) Irish is native, 2) it's part of our heritage and 3) it is ours as a nation.
Number 1 is fine, Irish is native to Ireland, no problem there.
Number 2 is not really true for the country as a whole in any meaningful way. There are areas, i.e. the gaeltacht, where Irish is part of the heritage, where it is passed down generation by generation and used daily. But most places in Ireland, Irish is subject in school and nothing more.
Number 3 is not true and the problem is that you take the heritage of minority places like the gaeltacht and try to attach it to nationality. "Irish is ours a Nation" is a short, nay non-existent, step to "Irish is a part of our nationality" and then barely a scuffle to "you aren't really Irish if don't speak/support the language".
I don't think I need to belabour this point any more. You are the one who brought "nation" into this and attached it to the Irish language as a measure of importance. Are you trying to say that you don't believe that Irish is an important identifier of Irish nationality? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.Likewise, while the vast majority of Irish people might not speak Irish themelves, nor intend to become fluent themselves, that does not mean that their support for the Irish language is merely "Tokenistic Nationalism" and it does not mean that they don't care at all about the right of their fellow citizens to live their lives through Irish or that they would accept that right being deminished.
Which is a massive non sequitor because no one is saying that people shouldn't be allowed live their lives through Irish, if they want to.
People supported SSM by removing restrictions to allow a minority of people to live how they choose because, in part, it doesn't actually effect the majority.
People "support" the Irish language by keeping restrictions that force a majority of people to waste time and money pretending to learn the language in school/support the language in poorly executed schemes, despite how ineffective that clearly is in getting people to actually speak/care about the language.
Do you not see the difference? "Support" for the Irish language is the opposite for the support for SSM. It is not about letting a minority get on with their lives as they see fit, it's about forcing a majority to ineffectually pander to that minority. That minority doesn't need every school child in the country to do Irish in schools in order for that minority to live their lives in Irish. It doesn't need ineffectual public schemes either. If that minority wants to live through Irish, then it can already do that if under the same freedoms anyone has to live their lives through Polish or Chinese or any other language.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote: »Yep, that's what I said. We both keep repeating ourselves. And there you go on languages again. English is perfectly fine, our most used language, but it's not Irish is it?
The Irish language is a communicative tool developed in Ireland by the Irish. It's not a group, a political view or an industry. What it represents to people with political hang ups is their problem, seemingly yours too. What a laugh. Cultural heritage need not be about getting one over or distancing yourself from something. What's wrong with celebrating who you are? Irish is part of the Irish culture. As much as French is to the French. Give over with your politicking nonsense.
It's a form of communication. trying to politicise it as a reason to dismiss it is a foolish and pointless endeavour.
The fact I'm an English speaker proves you wrong. Neither am I RCC. I would no more stop funding the language than I would bulldoze New Grange.
It's part of who we are, always will be. It should be cherished and given respect. You are free not to use it.
Your posts are so full of silly appeal-to-emotion arguments it's hard to know where to start.
Irish shouldn't be politicised because it's part of our culture? Isn't our culture inherently political? Our culture and history, especially the use Irish language, is inherently tied to our relationship with England and how their politics effected our politics for the last millennium. It's a bit rich to decry the politicising of the Irish when your go to defence is that English isn't Irish.
Cultural heritage is not about what makes this country Ireland as opposed to any other country? But Irish is better than English because English isn't Irish? You keep pretending, but this is not about celebrating what we are, it's clearly about celebrating what we are not (i.e British).
Wanting to stop funding for the language is like trying to bulldoze New Grange now? What's next, are you going to accuse me of wanting to ethnically cleanse the gaeltachts?
It's a part of who we are? Except for the census results which shows that for vast vast majority of people it's a part of school and nothing else.0 -
madbeanman wrote: »I have no idea what paragraph one means or how it is a rebuttal to what I said.
That's what happens when you move the goalposts and forget the original point you were making up stuff for.
You see, you originally said "And sure langauges may borrow from each other, no question about it but Irish as it is spoken today has a 1500 year history here and is one of the oldest living languages in Europe". That is you clearly trying to imply that Irish as it is today is nearly unique in Europe as an old and relatively unchanged language over the last 1500 years.
You then tried to move to "So like obviously primitive Irish gave rise to Old Irish and Middle Irish. Weird of you to argue otherwise". Of course, that applies to every language in Europe, all languages in existence really, making your first point entirely moot.
I'm going to guess that you will try to veer into "my point was show old Irish as a language is" and pre-empt that with a link to the wikipedia page on the first written accounts of various languages. Old Irish is beaten by, amongst other European languages, Old Dutch, Gothic, Mycenaean Greek and Latin. Irish ain't nothing special when it comes to age.madbeanman wrote: »Anyways ok, so are you saying that Irish should be optional at secondary level BUT compulsory at primary level like History (and the folktales taught as part of it) and Art?
Also similarly if you believe Irish spending is a waste of money are all historical museums and art galleries in Ireland receiving state money a waste of money?
Is all expression of Irish culture that is state funded not token nationalism?
I would prefer we teach primary school kids a language they might actually use in the real world, but having an introduction to Irish in primary school wouldn't be the worst thing, if it was taught properly.
I believe funding the Irish language in order to try and force people to use it is a waste. Art and history museums are not funded for that purpose, so why would I want them defunded?
Only the expressions that are tokenistic nationalism are actually tokenistic nationalism. Stuff like pretending the Irish language has modern day relevance to the majority of the country (naive, at best), St Patrick's Day (an excuse to get pissed), shamrocks and harps (tourist tat). I'm not saying all expressions of these are tokenistic, some people do live their lives through Irish but recognise that that is a personal expression. Some people celebrate St Patrick's Day for the religious festival it is, some people have traditions around shamrocks and harps that don't centre around selling merchandise. More power to those people, but they are in the minority.0 -
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Yes I am saying Irish speakers don't get the funding(there are examples earlier in the thread) they need because money for Irish is being wasted on people who have no interest in actually using the language.
For me supporting the language means supporting the people who speak the language. I would be of the view that a large amount of money is spent on Irish via the education system that doesn't help the language at best and damages it at worst. Most people once they finish school will never interact with the language in a substantive way for the rest of their lives. A large amount of money is spending over time in schools and indirectly in summer grind schools(Gaeltacht camps). Ultimately on people who have no interest in the language. I would far prefer see that money spent directly on enabling people who speak Irish to access government and related services efficiently.
You mention stuff like Newgrange. As far as I aware no other branch of Irish heritage receives anywhere close to the level of money that Irish does. It also says alot about the language that there is even a need to compare it to a 5000 year old monument. Even mentioning how long Irish has been spoken sends out a message sounds like saying it's a language of the past not the future. Surely Irish has a better future that been a fun little script that people turn up to a museum every now and then to look at.
For the language to survive it has to find away to exist in a functional state in the Ireland of today not 100/200/300 years ago. That is a challenge, given the modern medium environment, Internet, Netflix, Hollywood etc there is a vast cateolgue of English language entertainment even before you remember it's the global language of business and everything that comes with that. Money spent on Irish needs to spend in a targeted fashion to extract the best return possible for the language otherwise it will struggle to survive.
I made the New Grange example as another part of or heritage that should be protected. I agree, if anything the CBS put me off Irish. In fact I'd more Irish going in than I did coming out. All of these things can be addressed. They are not arguments for doing away with it, which is what taking it out of schools would help lead towards.
How old it is? Seriously, it's not new or hip enough? The silliest of arguments.
It's ours language we created. It is of Ireland. Any political hang ups people assign to it is their own to reconcile with. Any lobby group or whomever you may not like does not take away from the Irish language. It's akin to not liking English because you don't like Boris Johnson or something. They don't own the language. It's ours.0 -
Mark Hamill wrote: »Your posts are so full of silly appeal-to-emotion arguments it's hard to know where to start.
Irish shouldn't be politicised because it's part of our culture? Isn't our culture inherently political? Our culture and history, especially the use Irish language, is inherently tied to our relationship with England and how their politics effected our politics for the last millennium. It's a bit rich to decry the politicising of the Irish when your go to defence is that English isn't Irish.
Cultural heritage is not about what makes this country Ireland as opposed to any other country? But Irish is better than English because English isn't Irish? You keep pretending, but this is not about celebrating what we are, it's clearly about celebrating what we are not (i.e British).
Wanting to stop funding for the language is like trying to bulldoze New Grange now? What's next, are you going to accuse me of wanting to ethnically cleanse the gaeltachts?
It's a part of who we are? Except for the census results which shows that for vast vast majority of people it's a part of school and nothing else.
Not emotion fact. It's factually the Irish language, called so because it is of Ireland. Pretty basic stuff.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote:I made the New Grange example as another part of or heritage that should be protected. I agree, if anything the CBS put me off Irish. In fact I'd more Irish going in than I did coming out. All of these things can be addressed. They are not arguments for doing away with it, which is what taking it out of schools would help lead towards. How old it is? Seriously, it's not new or hip enough? The silliest of arguments. It's ours language we created. It is of Ireland. Any political hang ups people assign to it is their own to reconcile with. Any lobby group or whomever you may not like does not take away from the Irish language. It's akin to not liking English because you don't like Boris Johnson or something. They don't own the language. It's ours.Matt Barrett wrote:I made the New Grange example as another part of or heritage that should be protected. I agree, if anything the CBS put me off Irish. In fact I'd more Irish going in than I did coming out. All of these things can be addressed. They are not arguments for doing away with it, which is what taking it out of schools would help lead towards. How old it is? Seriously, it's not new or hip enough? The silliest of arguments. It's ours language we created. It is of Ireland. Any political hang ups people assign to it is their own to reconcile with. Any lobby group or whomever you may not like does not take away from the Irish language. It's akin to not liking English because you don't like Boris Johnson or something. They don't own the language. It's ours.
I think you miss my point(and I argue I put it badly). Saying Irish in its current form originated in Ireland, saying its "our" language is irrelevant. It does not work. The best example being the last 100 old years of independence. The amount of people speaking the language has decreased despite a 100 odd years of that been said to both children(especially) and adults. A large amount of money has been wasted doing that. It also damages the language. A lot of people have a negative view of Irish as a result of school. Fundamentally people don't care. Would they like to see it protected yes but I would argue in the same way as Newgrange, something to look at but not actually practice akin to whatever festival/religious purpose Newgrange was built for.
You yourself speak English. If really want to protect the language go and start speaking it regularly. However if you do that and unless you go out of your way to find Irish language speaking communities it will be very difficult. If you go and try to go to a shop and engage with pretty much any private or government service it will difficult if not impossible to engage with Irish. Most people give up/use this as an excuse not to speak the language.
Money needs to be spent on the people who speak the language. Not people who see it as part of our heritage(which is currently the main focus of Irish language spending). Help the people who speak Irish find a place for the language in the Ireland of today and the future. Forget about the fact that the language originated in Ireland and has been here for x hundreds of years. If Irish cannot be used on a day to day basis to do stuff it will die and fade into our heritage.0 -
I think you miss my point(and I argue I put it badly). Saying Irish in its current form originated in Ireland, saying its "our" language is irrelevant. It does not work. The best example being the last 100 old years of independence. The amount of people speaking the language has decreased despite a 100 odd years of that been said to both children(especially) and adults. A large amount of money has been wasted doing that. It also damages the language. A lot of people have a negative view of Irish as a result of school. Fundamentally people don't care. Would they like to see it protected yes but I would argue in the same way as Newgrange, something to look at but not actually practice akin to whatever festival/religious purpose Newgrange was built for.
You yourself speak English. If really want to protect the language go and start speaking it regularly. However if you do that and unless you go out of your way to find Irish language speaking communities it will be very difficult. If you go and try to go to a shop and engage with pretty much any private or government service it will difficult if not impossible to engage with Irish. Most people give up/use this as an excuse not to speak the language.
Money needs to be spent on the people who speak the language. Not people who see it as part of our heritage(which is currently the main focus of Irish language spending). Help the people who speak Irish find a place for the language in the Ireland of today and the future. Forget about the fact that the language originated in Ireland and has been here for x hundreds of years. If Irish cannot be used on a day to day basis to do stuff it will die and fade into our heritage.
It is simple. We have Irish and always will. It's not required to earn its keep. Popularity can come into where gets funding and how much of course.
I'm not arguing we 'need' Irish to function. I'm not suggesting it be forced into prominence to rival English.
All I am saying is, it exists. It's part of what being Irish is. It's our culture and heritage. As an Irish person I want the language to be supported. That's my opinion. Being different from the Brits has nothing to do with it. Neither politics nor religion, for me anyway.
I would be more interested in money and time going into teaching people about Irish and Irish itself than funding some insular group already speaking it.
I believe most Irish people would be happy to spend on retaining our language. Regardless of what language they currently use.
It would be embarrassing and shameful not to support it.
If we start cutting corners based on popular practice, we'd have Newgrange used as a lIdl. We need to maintain standards despite any fleeting fancies. I would not like to tell the coming generations 'yeah we use to have a language, but we weren't arsed maintaining it and let it go'.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote:It is simple. We have Irish and always will. It's not required to earn its keep. Popularity can come into where gets funding and how much of course.
There's a difference between Irish as a living language(which it is just about) and having Irish as a dead language(which is the way its heading).
I don't know what you mean by earn it's keep. I support measures that focus supporting the language alive as a spoken one. That means supporting the people who speak the language. Currently in the region of a billion euros is spent on the language. However despite all this money Irish language speakers struggle to access government services in the language of their choice. Its a crazy inefficient use of money.
I don't know why you keep going on about Irish being the language of Ireland and been around for x hundreds of years. Just because you are Irish doesn't mean you care about the language or want to speak it. We know that from the last 100 years. It doesn't work. You can see it from examples on this thread about accessing services in Irish and the raw data about the number of Irish speakers.
I also don't know what you mean by the language earning its keep. A language can't earn its keep. It needs speakers the same as any language. Without them it's dead.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote:I'm not arguing we 'need' Irish to function. I'm not suggesting it be forced into prominence to rival English. All I am saying is, it exists. It's part of what being Irish is. It's our culture and heritage. As an Irish person I want the language to be supported. That's my opinion. Being different from the Brits has nothing to do with it. Neither politics nor religion, for me anyway. I would be more interested in money and time going into teaching people about Irish and Irish itself than funding some insular group already speaking it. I believe most Irish people would be happy to spend on retaining our language. Regardless of what language they currently use. It would be embarrassing and shameful not to support it. If we start cutting corners based on popular practice, we'd have Newgrange used as a lIdl. We need to maintain standards despite any fleeting fancies. I would not like to tell the coming generations 'yeah we use to have a language, but we weren't arsed maintaining it and let it go'.
Most Irish people don't currently want to retain the language because they don't speak it.0 -
There's a difference between Irish as a living language(which it is just about) and having Irish as a dead language(which is the way its heading).
I don't know what you mean by earn it's keep. I support measures that focus supporting the language alive as a spoken one. That means supporting the people who speak the language. Currently in the region of a billion euros is spent on the language. However despite all this money Irish language speakers struggle to access government services in the language of their choice. Its a crazy inefficient use of money.
I don't know why you keep going on about Irish being the language of Ireland and been around for x hundreds of years. Just because you are Irish doesn't mean you care about the language or want to speak it. We know that from the last 100 years. It doesn't work. You can see it from examples on this thread about accessing services in Irish and the raw data about the number of Irish speakers.
I also don't know what you mean by the language earning its keep. A language can't earn its keep. It needs speakers the same as any language. Without them it's dead.
It was argued against English. English is useful in business etc.
I've not mentioned it being old as a reason never mind 'going on about it'. It is old.
Agreed, just because you are Irish does not mean you care about the language. But it exists. You might argue it has no place, but it will always be the Irish language.
I think we pretty much agree on how to treat it, it's just the perception were we differ. I mention New Grange because to me the Irish language is as much a part of Ireland as the people and land itself.Most Irish people don't currently want to retain the language because they don't speak it.
I don't know that.
In this time of putting a price and monitory worth on everything I can see some having an issue. Somethings are more important than how much profit they bring in. I'm not putting that on you, just commenting that that's an attitude you come across.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote:I don't know that. In this time of putting a price and monitory worth on everything I can see some having an issue. Somethings are more important than how much profit they bring in. I'm not putting that on you, just commenting that that's an attitude you come across.
I don't understand your point. It costs nothing to speak/support the language absolutely nothing at an individual level at least . There are plenty of Irish language groups calling out for people. It's where the whole idea of urban Gaeltachts come from. People coming together in their own time speaking Irish. It's free.
At a national level the issue is not money its how the money is used. The money spent on Irish is not spent on people who actually speak the language and supporting them. For them the Irish language is not historical, it's not part of their heritage its part of who they are. It's why they get annoyed when people say the language is dead. If people don't speak the language you can spend all the money you want but the language dies without speakers.0 -
I don't understand your point. It costs nothing to speak/support the language absolutely nothing at an individual level at least . There are plenty of Irish language groups calling out for people. It's where the whole idea of urban Gaeltachts come from. People coming together in their own time speaking Irish. It's free.
At a national level the issue is not money its how the money is used. The money spent on Irish is not spent on people who actually speak the language and supporting them. For them the Irish language is not historical, it's not part of their heritage its part of who they are. It's why they get annoyed when people say the language is dead. If people don't speak the language you can spend all the money you want but the language dies without speakers.
Agreed.
That's why it should be in schools.0 -
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Matt Barrett wrote:Agreed. That's why it should be in schools.
I am not arguing that it shouldn't be. What I am saying the amount of money spent on Irish in schools should be reduced. The reason for this is that the vast majority of people who learn it schools will never engage meaningfully with the language once they leave school. They do it because they have to which doesn't help the language. Perfect if you want to remind people of their heritage, a disaster if you want to keep the language alive. Actual Irish speakers struggle to access government services in their chosen language. If you want to keep Irish alive you need to support Irish speakers first and foremost.
Sticking to a 100 old strategy is stupid. It didn't work in the 30's and 40's when Ireland was a relatively closed country. It will not work in modern Ireland which is one of the most open economies in the world. Never mind companies like Netflix and HBO with production budgets that dwarf what is spent on Irish.0
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