The Irish Language and the Irish Government

Mark Hamill

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You are putting words in my mouth. I have not said this and if I wanted to imply it I would say it, not leave supposed breadcrumbs "throughout my posts". You are the one jumping to that conclusion, not me. If that is what comes to your mind then perhaps it is you that has the hangup. I am not making emotive arguments. Again, you are the one getting emotional here, not me. I am simply making factual statements, if these facts provoke an emotional response in you, that is your issue.

Come off it. You start with an objective (and moot) statement, that Irish is native to Ireland, but then jump into emotive nonsense about how that it being native is what makes it great and important. You then go on about the few 10,000s of Irish who speaker it are proud and live their life through it and follow up with how that makes the Irish language ours as a nation.
It is crystal clear that you attach the Irish language to Irish nationality and that therefore anyone who rejects the language is therefore less Irish themselves.

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I'm not sure why you are bringing a violent uprising from over a hundred years ago into this discussion. There are plenty of people in the country who have no intention of getting married to someone the same gender as themselves, and yet this does not make them homophobic, it does not mean that they are any less committed to allowing equality regardless of sexual orientation and it does not mean they would be happy to deny others the right to marry the person they love. Likewise, that someone may not have had the opportunity, the time or even the inclination to become fluent in Irish themselves does not mean that they are against the Irish language, it does not mean that they wish to see their fellow citizens right to live every part of their lives through their choice of language deminished, it does not mean that they do not accept the Irish language as an important part of our nation and honestly I think it is rather foolish to suggest otherwise.

My point was completely clear. The average public support for the Irish language extends exactly as far Tokenistic Nationalism. The vast majority don't care at all about Irish (hence they don't care to try to speak it) but try and take it away and suddenly it becomes some integral part of being Irish. Look at your sides posts in this thread, nothing objective about why Irish is important, just emotive arguments about how Irish isn't English and that makes it (and therefore us) better than English and the English people.

Mark Hamill

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Without wanting to reopen that discussion, Údarás is still not really a "language advocacy group". That is not what they exist to do.

In any case your post suggested that there were multiple such groups, who are the others that you are refering to?

From here:

The overall objective of Údarás na Gaeltachta is to ensure that Irish remains the main communal language of the Gaeltacht and is passed on to future generations.
...
All of the organisation’s activities have the aim of preserving and promoting the Irish language at their core.

That doesn't make it an advocacy group?

Look, if you are going to be that much in denial about what these groups themselves say about themselves, is there any point having a discussion with you?

blanch152

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Come off it. You start with an objective (and moot) statement, that Irish is native to Ireland, but then jump into emotive nonsense about how that it being native is what makes it great and important. You then go on about the few 10,000s of Irish who speaker it are proud and live their life through it and follow up with how that makes the Irish language ours as a nation.
It is crystal clear that you attach the Irish language to Irish nationality and that therefore anyone who rejects the language is therefore less Irish themselves.


My point was completely clear. The average public support for the Irish language extends exactly as far Tokenistic Nationalism. The vast majority don't care at all about Irish (hence they don't care to try to speak it) but try and take it away and suddenly it becomes some integral part of being Irish. Look at your sides posts in this thread, nothing objective about why Irish is important, just emotive arguments about how Irish isn't English and that makes it (and therefore us) better than English and the English people.

What is peculiar is that many of the same people on here defending the Irish language would be the biggest critics of the revival of Ulster Scots or the Israeli state, which are the two closest parallels to the way that Irish is being preserved in that they are both top-down, State-imposed situations, as opposed to somewhere like Wales, where the growth in Welsh is from the communities and not from subsidies and grants.

Mark Hamill

madbeanman wrote: »

So like obviously primitive Irish gave rise to Old Irish and Middle Irish. Weird of you to argue otherwise.

More or less weird than you implying that that doesn't equally apply to all languages European languages.
And yes, you were implying that, otherwise why make the point?

madbeanman wrote: »

Also, I would argue that we currently teach things to kids that are thought to be culturally significant. History is culturally significant, Art is culturally significant, the folktales that kids learn in 2nd and 3rd class are culturally significant. Irish is culturally significant

History, Art and those folktales are all optional at a secondary school level, as they should be.

Mark Hamill

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Perhaps you would like it to have a much less prominent position in the curriculum, but this does not mean that it must happen.

"What you want to happen might not happen".
Seriously, why even bother to post this?

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What are you basing this on? From what I can see, it is those on the other side that have been arguing this. Seemingly unless you have made yourself fluent in Irish, then you must not care about it at all or support it's position in our society.

Who said you must be fluent? Wouldn't you expect someone who says that say, astronomy, is so integrally important to Irish life that we should have it ingrained in our Constitution, public initiatives funded by the government and made compulsory for school children to be able to do more than point at the moon?

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What do you mean by this?

Probably the same way that Catholicism has an important place in our history and heritage (we were a Catholic country and that did shape our history) however it must also be recognised in modern times as the anachronism it is, stripped of it's compulsory presence in daily life and left to those who genuinely believe and follow it of their own accord.

Imreoir2

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Come off it. You start with an objective (and moot) statement, that Irish is native to Ireland, but then jump into emotive nonsense about how that it being native is what makes it great and important. You then go on about the few 10,000s of Irish who speaker it are proud and live their life through it and follow up with how that makes the Irish language ours as a nation.
It is crystal clear that you attach the Irish language to Irish nationality and that therefore anyone who rejects the language is therefore less Irish themselves.

You keep trying to put words in my mouth. I have not said, and do not believe that someone who does not speak Irish is less Irish than someone who does speak Irish. Please do not repeat this lie again.

If the statement that Irish is native to this island and as such is part of the common herritage of the people of this island, ie. the Irish language is ours as a nation, provokes an emotional response in you, that is your issue. You are the one with the baggage here, I am simply stating a fact.

My point was completely clear. The average public support for the Irish language extends exactly as far Tokenistic Nationalism. The vast majority don't care at all about Irish (hence they don't care to try to speak it) but try and take it away and suddenly it becomes some integral part of being Irish.

Your point was clear enough, but no less inaccurate for its clarity. You may be of the opinion that mere tokenistic nationalism is at play, I disagree. I would make the comparrision again that the vest majority of the population will never marry, nor indeed ever want to marry someone of the same gender as themselves, and yet it would be a nonsense to suggest that this shows that their support for equal treatment for those with a different sexual orentiation is noting more than a tokenistic liberalism and that they really don't care at all about equal rights for their fellow citizens in the LGBTQ+ community. Likewise, while the vast majority of Irish people might not speak Irish themelves, nor intend to become fluent themselves, that does not mean that their support for the Irish language is merely "Tokenistic Nationalism" and it does not mean that they don't care at all about the right of their fellow citizens to live their lives through Irish or that they would accept that right being deminished.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

What is peculiar is that many of the same people on here defending the Irish language would be the biggest critics of the revival of Ulster Scots or the Israeli state, which are the two closest parallels to the way that Irish is being preserved in that they are both top-down, State-imposed situations, as opposed to somewhere like Wales, where the growth in Welsh is from the communities and not from subsidies and grants.

Please expand your point further. How do the supports for Welsh in Wales differ from the supports for Irish in Ireland. I am interestd in the Welsh situation, and indeed have often seen very similar criticisims of Welsh in Wales that are leveled at Irish in Ireland. "Wales is an English speaking country, Welsh should have no place in a modern Wales" etc.

It is interesting therefore that you seem to think that there is some significant difference between how Welsh is treated in Wales and how Irish is treated in Ireland. I don't mean to suggest that I think that there are no differences, there are many, there is no officially recognised Welsh version of the Gaeltacht for example. But I would be interested to know what you think the key differences are.

James Brown

Mark Hamill wrote: »

All you are doing is repeating yourself.
So what that it was our language? It's not anymore. Many countries had older languages that nobody pretends should come back. Many people want Italians to go back to speaking Latin, or Brazilians to pretend that Portuguese isn't their national language and speak whatever mix of old native languages they used to speak?
So what that English came from somewhere else? Celtic did too, and that eventually turned into Irish, just like Old British English turned into modern Irish English over time.

Your entire post is Tokenistic Nationalism. You, by your own admission, have little to no Irish, yet you support funnelling money into Irish and wasting all Irish school kids time teaching it because arguments that all amount to "it makes us different to the Brits". Why don't you speak it? let me guess, you are too busy to learn, but it's ok to waste everyone's time and money to pretend that Irish is still nationally relevant.

Yep, that's what I said. We both keep repeating ourselves. And there you go on languages again. English is perfectly fine, our most used language, but it's not Irish is it?
The Irish language is a communicative tool developed in Ireland by the Irish. It's not a group, a political view or an industry. What it represents to people with political hang ups is their problem, seemingly yours too.

It makes us different to the Brits

What a laugh. Cultural heritage need not be about getting one over or distancing yourself from something. What's wrong with celebrating who you are? Irish is part of the Irish culture. As much as French is to the French. Give over with your politicking nonsense.
It's a form of communication. trying to politicise it as a reason to dismiss it is a foolish and pointless endeavour.
The fact I'm an English speaker proves you wrong. Neither am I RCC. I would no more stop funding the language than I would bulldoze New Grange.
It's part of who we are, always will be. It should be cherished and given respect. You are free not to use it.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Please expand your point further. How do the supports for Welsh in Wales differ from the supports for Irish in Ireland. I am interestd in the Welsh situation, and indeed have often seen very similar criticisims of Welsh in Wales that are leveled at Irish in Ireland. "Wales is an English speaking country, Welsh should have no place in a modern Wales" etc.

It is interesting therefore that you seem to think that there is some significant difference between how Welsh is treated in Wales and how Irish is treated in Ireland. I don't mean to suggest that I think that there are no differences, there are many, there is no officially recognised Welsh version of the Gaeltacht for example. But I would be interested to know what you think the key differences are.

Welsh grew by people wanting to speak it to each other. Irish didn't and hasn't and doesn't look like it ever will.

Hotblack Desiato

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The Irish language is a communicative tool developed in Ireland by the Irish.

Yes, and now not used by almost all of them, so no longer a useful tool.
Latin used to be an important part of our culture, the Book of Kells was written in it, but nobody is suggesting we make Latin compulsory in school. Those who have an interest and want to learn it can do so.

What it represents to people with political hang ups is their problem

The huge hang-up is refusing to recognise reality by pretending that Irish is the primary language of the state.

What's wrong with celebrating who you are? Irish is part of the Irish culture. As much as French is to the French.

What rubbish. The French speak French almost exclusively. The Irish almost exclusively speak English.

It's part of who we are, always will be. It should be cherished and given respect. You are free not to use it.

It's not part of what most Irish people are and hasn't ever been, except as a subject they hated in school.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

Welsh grew by people wanting to speak it to each other. Irish didn't and hasn't and doesn't look like it ever will.

This is hardly much of an expansion on your origional point. Would you mind giving some evidence, some examples to more clearly demonstrate your point? Obviously there is a state system supporting the Welsh language just like the Irish state supports the Irish lanugage. Welsh is compulsory in schools, state services are made available in Welsh, there is a Welsh Language Ombudsman like there is an Ombudsman for the Irish Language. What are the main differences in the approch taken to promoting Welsh that are absent in Ireland?

You said that in Wales it came from the communities, are you refering to the grassroots movement that grew up in Wales in the late 60's to challenge the lack of official support for the Welsh language? It's true that use has not been made, at least not to the same extent, of direct action and civil disobediance to promote the Irish language compared to what has been done in Wales over the years. They claim that not one day has gone by since the 60's without someone serving time in jail in the cause of the Welsh language.

There have nonetheless been some comparable episodes of direct action and civil disobediance in the cause of the Irish language. The Gaeltacht Civil Rights movement back in the 70's, the resistance to the closing of the school in Dún Chaoin, and the campaign to set up Teilifís na Gaeilge would be examples of that approch being used in Ireland. Do you think more of that kind of grassroots activism is needed in Ireland?

James Brown

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes, and now not used by almost all of them, so no longer a useful tool.
Latin used to be an important part of our culture, the Book of Kells was written in it, but nobody is suggesting we make Latin compulsory in school. Those who have an interest and want to learn it can do so.

We don't live in Latin. We live in Ireland. You're missing the point. It's not a battle of languages. We've only one uniquely Irish language.
Repeating we don't use it as much is pointless.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The huge hang-up is refusing to recognise reality by pretending that Irish is the primary language of the state.

It should always have a place of prominence. It's differentiating between language used and language of. Irish is of the Irish.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What rubbish. The French speak French almost exclusively. The Irish almost exclusively speak English.

Rubbish if you misunderstand. I'm stating that a language can be of a country. Irish is of Ireland like French is of France. Who speaks what and how much is not my point here.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's not part of what most Irish people are and hasn't ever been, except as a subject they hated in school.

It is part of Irish culture and heritage. That cannot be denied.
It's great to have it, lest all nations give up their unique qualities and become homogenised interchangable shells.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

This is hardly much of an expansion on your origional point. Would you mind giving some evidence, some examples to more clearly demonstrate your point? Obviously there is a state system supporting the Welsh language just like the Irish state supports the Irish lanugage. Welsh is compulsory in schools, state services are made available in Welsh, there is a Welsh Language Ombudsman like there is an Ombudsman for the Irish Language. What are the main differences in the approch taken to promoting Welsh that are absent in Ireland?

You said that in Wales it came from the communities, are you refering to the grassroots movement that grew up in Wales in the late 60's to challenge the lack of official support for the Welsh language? It's true that use has not been made, at least not to the same extent, of direct action and civil disobediance to promote the Irish language compared to what has been done in Wales over the years. They claim that not one day has gone by since the 60's without someone serving time in jail in the cause of the Welsh language.

There have nonetheless been some comparable episodes of direct action and civil disobediance in the cause of the Irish language. The Gaeltacht Civil Rights movement back in the 70's, the resistance to the closing of the school in Dún Chaoin, and the campaign to set up Teilifís na Gaeilge would be examples of that approch being used in Ireland. Do you think more of that kind of grassroots activism is needed in Ireland?

I have said what I have said.

Irish would have been as successful as Welsh if more people had actually chosen to speak it, rather than ignore it or pay lip-service to it.

Your argument isn't with me, it is with the millions of Irish people who don't care enough about Irish to speak it every day.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We don't live in Latin. We live in Ireland. You're missing the point. It's not a battle of languages. We've only one uniquely Irish language.
Repeating we don't use it as much is pointless.



It should always have a place of prominence. It's differentiating between language used and language of. Irish is of the Irish.



Rubbish if you misunderstand. I'm stating that a language can be of a country. Irish is of Ireland like French is of France. Who speaks what and how much is not my point here.

Irish is of Ireland? Irish is of the Irish?

Apart from being untrue, that is the very opposite of an inclusive definition of Ireland and what it means to be Irish.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It is part of Irish culture and heritage. That cannot be denied.

Nobody is denying that the Irish language is a part of Irish culture and heritage, it just has to take its rightful place and prominence. It does not define Irish culture and neither does it define Irish heritage. The reality is that its place is very much a secondary one.

Hotblack Desiato

It's a shame that the language and the nationality have the same name (in English, not in Irish ironically) as this seems to be confusing the hell out of some people.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

I have said what I have said.

Irish would have been as successful as Welsh if more people had actually chosen to speak it, rather than ignore it or pay lip-service to it.

Your argument isn't with me, it is with the millions of Irish people who don't care enough about Irish to speak it every day.

You seem to be arguing that more people would speak Irish if more people spoke Irish. A rather pointless statement if you ask me. You also seem to be suggesting that the survival of Welsh in Wales is entirely independant of state support. That is a rather uninformed opinion.

I have no arguement with Irish people who don't speak Irish. People are entitled not to speak Irish if they don't want to, I don't have any problem with that.

I do have issues with those who spread false information, be it intentional or through ignorance, and I especially have an arguement with people would would seek to deminish my right to use my language in my country.

Imreoir2

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a shame that the language and the nationality have the same name (in English, not in Irish ironically) as this seems to be confusing the hell out of some people.

In Irish, the Irish language is Gaeilge, which is the language of the Irish people (Na Gaeil).

James Brown

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a shame that the language and the nationality have the same name (in English, not in Irish ironically) as this seems to be confusing the hell out of some people.

Are you seriously not getting it? Why is the Irish language called 'Irish' and not say 'Klingon'? Why is English the name of their language? Would you be more comfortable if we called English spoken in Ireland Irish? That would lend itself to were you seem to be going

Hotblack Desiato

Imreoir2 wrote: »

In Irish, the Irish language is Gaeilge, which is the language of the Irish people (Na Gaeil).

Yep. 2 different words.

Hotblack Desiato

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Are you seriously not getting it? Why is the Irish language called 'Irish' and not say 'Klingon'? Why is English the name of their language? Would you be more comfortable if we called English spoken in Ireland Irish? That would lend itself to were you seem to be going

You seem to think that because it's called Irish (what if we called it Gaelic in English???) therefore it's part of us because our nationality is called Irish too.

I can't imagine a weaker argument tbh but this sort of nonsense and endless repetition is what happens when anyone questions the status quo regarding the language on here.


Can you justify Irish being given primary status in the constitution?

Can you justify compulsory Irish to leaving cert?

Can you justify the vast expense on failed Irish language promotion efforts over the last 95 years?

madbeanman

Mark Hamill wrote: »

More or less weird than you implying that that doesn't equally apply to all languages European languages.
And yes, you were implying that, otherwise why make the point?


History, Art and those folktales are all optional at a secondary school level, as they should be.

I have no idea what paragraph one means or how it is a rebuttal to what I said.

Anyways ok, so are you saying that Irish should be optional at secondary level BUT compulsory at primary level like History (and the folktales taught as part of it) and Art?

Also similarly if you believe Irish spending is a waste of money are all historical museums and art galleries in Ireland receiving state money a waste of money?

Is all expression of Irish culture that is state funded not token nationalism?

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You seem to be arguing that more people would speak Irish if more people spoke Irish. A rather pointless statement if you ask me. You also seem to be suggesting that the survival of Welsh in Wales is entirely independant of state support. That is a rather uninformed opinion.

I have no arguement with Irish people who don't speak Irish. People are entitled not to speak Irish if they don't want to, I don't have any problem with that.

I do have issues with those who spread false information, be it intentional or through ignorance, and I especially have an arguement with people would would seek to deminish my right to use my language in my country.

I think you are missing the point. What I am arguing is that Irish people have chosen to relegate the Irish language to secondary status in Irish culture by not speaking it. If Irish is to regain primary status (arguably it only artificially ever had primary status) in Irish culture, then more people need to speak it.

The numbers speaking, the numbers watching TV, the numbers studying at third-level etc. all speak to a language in decline, of fading relevance and of indifference and insignificance to modern-day Irish culture.

James Brown

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You seem to think that because it's called Irish (what if we called it Gaelic in English???) therefore it's part of us because our nationality is called Irish too.

I can't imagine a weaker argument tbh but this sort of nonsense and endless repetition is what happens when anyone questions the status quo regarding the language on here.


Can you justify Irish being given primary status in the constitution?

Can you justify compulsory Irish to leaving cert?

Can you justify the vast expense on failed Irish language promotion efforts over the last 95 years?

You're dodging. Why is it called Irish? It would be the height of ignorance for a country to lose it's language. Any association with politics is your own hang up. Not saying it's not there, simply saying the language is there regardless.
I'm defending the Status Quo? Rockin', rockin' all over the world. I'm defending your culture.

I'd have it compulsory to the junior cert.
I'd need more detail on specific funding, but I support funding it because it's our culture and heritage.

Hotblack Desiato

It's the Irish language lobby who associate it with politics, even the suggestion by Enda Kenny a few years back that it be optional at LC was met with fury. So it's easier for politicians to keep their heads down.

Hotblack Desiato

"I'm defending your culture." How pompous and arrogant. It's not my culture.

James Brown

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's the Irish language lobby who associate it with politics, even the suggestion by Enda Kenny a few years back that it be optional at LC was met with fury. So it's easier for politicians to keep their heads down.

I agree. Most interest groups lobby. They don't own the language. It's not a political view point, it's a language.
Now why is it called Irish (#3)?

James Brown

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

"I'm defending your culture." How pompous and arrogant. It's not my culture.

But it is. You don't have to like it.
What's pompous or arrogant about the truth?

PeadarCo

Matt Barrett wrote:

I agree. Most interest groups lobby. They don't own the language. It's not a political view point, it's a language. Now why is it called Irish (#3)?

Why is the name important? If a persons name is Christopher does it mean that they have an affinity/responsibility to the act in accordance with the origins of the name? The language is called Irish because its current version evolved in Ireland. The same as the Irish dialect of English. However the fact that it originated in Ireland does not mean it is anyway relevant to modern Ireland, given that just because you are from Ireland you have some ingrained ability or desire to speak it.


It's this attitude that is killing the language. Large amounts of money are being spent on the assumption if you are Irish you must speak it/have a responsibility to know a few words. Instead of recognising that most Irish peoples affection for Irish doesn't extend beyond empty platitudes. Actual Irish speakers, the people who are responsible for keeping the language alive are completely neglected and do not get near the level of resources to function using Irish in daily life.

James Brown

PeadarCo wrote: »

Why is the name important? If a persons name is Christopher does it mean that they have an affinity/responsibility to the act in accordance with the origins of the name? The language is called Irish because its current version evolved in Ireland. The same as the Irish dialect of English. However the fact that it originated in Ireland does not mean it is anyway relevant to modern Ireland, given that just because you are from Ireland you have some ingrained ability or desire to speak it.


It's this attitude that is killing the language. Large amounts of money are being spent on the assumption if you are Irish you must speak it/have a responsibility to know a few words. Instead of recognising that most Irish peoples affection for Irish doesn't extend beyond empty platitudes. Actual Irish speakers, the people who are responsible for keeping the language alive are completely neglected and do not get near the level of resources to function using Irish in daily life.

The claim seems to be that English is our language and there's no place for Irish. I say it's our language, some say it's not. You should really read over what got us here. It's repeated a lot. One post might cover it. If an Earthling is called an Earthling might he be from Mars? I don't think so. :rolleyes:
Now you're missing the point. The point is that it developed/evolved in Ireland and is uniquely ours.
To your point, it's as relevant as you feel it to be. Does not stop it being the language of Ireland. Seriously I can't be rehashing the same conversation. If you disagree fine, but that has been covered.

What attitude, thinking our language should receive funding? Fair enough. You must, IMO, learn about it in school up to Junior cert.
So do you suggest these completely neglected Irish speakers aren't getting enough funding? Who is all this money going to so?
I have not been to New Grange in many years. I do not want it turned into a lidl.

It's existence should be encouraged and maintained and organisations or people working to that end should be eligible for funding IMO.

Hotblack Desiato

If all you have is emotion, hyperbole and strawmen, you have no argument.