The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

PhoenixParker · 31-03-2018 10:27am

Edward M wrote: »

While I agree re the eighth being repealed is the real issue here, it does lead to other considerations as to what will replace it, and probably the rights of all citizens when its gone.
All these things when taken in to consideration may affect the way people vote re repeal.
Why limit the discussion?

Because the discussion is whataboutery.
Read up on it a bit and just how damaging it can be to genuine discourse about matters of public interest.

Edward M · 31-03-2018 10:42am

PhoenixParker wrote: »

One question I had after that discussion was whether miscarriage treatment is included in abortion stats in the U.K.
Not every miscarriage requires treatment but for the significant portion that do, the treatment is the same as an abortion.

I can't find a definitive answer but if it is the case, it would massively increase the apparent abortion rate in the UK.

Fair enough.
The stats I posted earlier were contested by another poster saying that if the pregnancies that ended in miscarriage were included it would vastly decrease the abortion ratio, I can see where you're coming from, and you are right in that tac I think.

seamus · 31-03-2018 10:52am

AtomicHorror wrote: »

If they hold that line, they don't have a chance of retaining the 8th. That campaign line is referendum suicide.

I hope that's the hill they die on.

The pro-choice campaign should keep dragging it back to that question and keep forcing pro-life campaigners to repeat themselves publically that rape victims and pregnant children should be forced to carry pregnancies to term.

Because that is about the most horrific thing about the eighth. And that pro-life people would defend it goes to show how amoral and evil they are.

thee glitz · 31-03-2018 1:03pm

seamus wrote: »

I hope that's the hill they die on.

Not likely, even if they don't get much support with that line. If the result of repealing the 8th would be abortion without reason to 12 weeks, and later if 2 docs sign off on a health risk (and concerns were raised in the UK around pre-signed forms), then support among moderates will veer towards a no vote.

The yes campaign will fall on pushing it too far - ideal for strong no supporters.

Sofiztikated · 31-03-2018 1:32pm

thee glitz wrote: »

Not likely, even if they don't get much support with that line. If the result of repealing the 8th would be abortion without reason to 12 weeks, and later if 2 docs sign off on a health risk (and concerns were raised in the UK around pre-signed forms), then support among moderates will veer towards a no vote.

The yes campaign will fall on pushing it too far - ideal for strong no supporters.

I respectfully disagree.

Neyite · 31-03-2018 2:07pm

PhoenixParker wrote: »

One question I had after that discussion was whether miscarriage treatment is included in abortion stats in the U.K.
Not every miscarriage requires treatment but for the significant portion that do, the treatment is the same as an abortion.

I can't find a definitive answer but if it is the case, it would massively increase the apparent abortion rate in the UK.

The treatment is the same. Once you begin to miscarry and depending on the gestation week, it's possible you'd be offered medication to speed up the process of expelling the products of conception. That medication is the same as the ones offered in the case of abortion.

You would be offered the same abortificant medication and procedures here in Ireland provided they have established there is no heart beat, and you haven't began to miscarry two weeks after that scan.

I can't imagine whoever compiled the statistics quoted trawled through each medical record to establish whether there was a heartbeat at the time the medication or procedure began. If they did, I'm sure that the stats would be drastically different.

1 in 4 pregnancies end in a natural miscarriage. Once a miscarriage begins, losing the pregnancy is inevitable. Other jurisdictions help a woman manage that process safely to avoid sepsis or infection. That's not abortion.

But as usual, the PLC are happy to misrepresent actual facts in order to scaremonger.

thee glitz · 31-03-2018 2:09pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I respectfully disagree.

I respect your respectful disagreeing with me.

What I'd like to know is, if a No vote prevails, will there be a re-run of the referendum with tighter proposed legislation to follow? It would seem that, depending on it, repeal would gain more support and surely the re-run would be passed. Against this, it wouldn't be right to have a re-run any time soon a-la-nice or Lisbon.

Sofiztikated · 31-03-2018 3:11pm

thee glitz wrote: »

I respect your respectful disagreeing with me.

What I'd like to know is, if a No vote prevails, will there be a re-run of the referendum with tighter proposed legislation to follow? It would seem that, depending on it, repeal would gain more support and surely the re-run would be passed. Against this, it wouldn't be right to have a re-run any time soon a-la-nice or Lisbon.

This is a rerun.

It's a rerun of a rerun.

suicide_circus · 31-03-2018 3:16pm

Men have no rights around parasitic foetuses (in utero) or full term foetuses (aka children)

January · 31-03-2018 3:27pm

Anti-choice side at it again, contacting our venue for our quiz night and putting pressure on them to cancel

Bredabe · 31-03-2018 3:51pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Men have no rights around parasitic foetuses (in utero) or full term foetuses (aka children)

Men not married to the pregnant person don't have any rights, fathers married to the pregnant person can afaik stop the putting the child up for the adoption process.

If you don't like this, tell your TD's, I'm active in this area and TD's tell me again and again that there is no need or appetite for change in the current legislation.

thee glitz · 31-03-2018 4:25pm

January wrote: »

Anti-choice side at it again, contacting our venue for our quiz night and putting pressure on them to cancel

Ah that's not right - what kind of pressure? I wouldn't support pro-choice events, but not oppose their table quizzes either. Despite your use of the term 'Anti-choice' somewhat diminishing your standing.

thee glitz · 31-03-2018 4:31pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

This is a rerun.

It's a rerun of a rerun.

Well it's not really, but it is an on-going process. The options available are opposing extremes - let's hope a middle ground can be found.

Bredabe · 31-03-2018 4:31pm

thee glitz wrote: »

Ah that's not right - what kind of pressure? I wouldn't support pro-choice events, but not oppose their table quizzes either. Despite your use of the term 'Anti-choice' somewhat diminishing your standing.

While I wouldn't speak for January, my pro-life girl sometimes calls herself anti-choice. For myself, what I've seen of their campaign it gives me the message that it "their way or the highway" which translates to anti-choice to me.

January · 31-03-2018 4:58pm

I'll use the term I like thanks, people here have called me a murderer so it's all good.

They've called and dropped into the venue and told them that if they go ahead with the quiz they'll lose their custom.

Nettle Soup · 31-03-2018 4:59pm

I have often thought many in the anti choice side came across as control freaks.

erica74 · 31-03-2018 6:04pm

January wrote: »

I'll use the term I like thanks, people here have called me a murderer so it's all good.

They've called and dropped into the venue and told them that if they go ahead with the quiz they'll lose their custom.

Because they obviously can't engage in reasoned mature conversations about the topic so instead they've resorted to this sort of threatening nonsense.

Annasopra · 31-03-2018 6:17pm

amdublin wrote: »

Also are these posters allowed?

Yes. The date has been announced.

thee glitz · 31-03-2018 9:07pm

Bredabe wrote: »

While I wouldn't speak for January, my pro-life girl sometimes calls herself anti-choice.

Would you say she's a fascist, or possibly only anti-choice on one particular issue?

For myself, what I've seen of their campaign it gives me the message that it "their way or the highway" which translates to anti-choice to me.

What about the choice to allow for legislating for abortion in any case, or just in cases where it's reasonably deemed to be necessary - would you support people having a vote on that?

January wrote: »

I'll use the term I like thanks, people here have called me a murderer so it's all good.

Fair play tye, just saying. Use of the term 'murderer' isn't very nice or clever either.

They've called and dropped into the venue and told them that if they go ahead with the quiz they'll lose their custom.

Over a circle-jerk quiz that won't achieve feck all, but still bring the venue in a few quid? Management should tell them they're welcome to have their own quiz night there and otherwise stfu.

Bredabe · 31-03-2018 9:13pm

Save or some other groups have put red and white posters in the visitors' area here, with slogans like 1 in 4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion, Not a single poster outside the church, but loads of them opposite or seeable from the leisure center/playpark.

They put them up while the kids were swimming, so not prepared for a million questions about abortion and what the UK has against pregnancies.

Obviously, those organizations don't care that 1 in 10 people in the country have sld and probably can't read their posters due to them being the worst possible combination of colours for ppl with that condition to read, inclusive much?

January · 31-03-2018 11:49pm

thee glitz wrote: »

Would you say she's a fascist, or possibly only anti-choice on one particular issue?

What about the choice to allow for legislating for abortion in any case, or just in cases where it's reasonably deemed to be necessary - would you support people having a vote on that?

Fair play tye, just saying. Use of the term 'murderer' isn't very nice or clever either.

Over a circle-jerk quiz that won't achieve feck all, but still bring the venue in a few quid? Management should tell them they're welcome to have their own quiz night there and otherwise stfu.

'circle jerk' quiz. You'd easily tell what side you're on. Fact is that you guys have enough money that posters have been erected pretty much around the country the minute the referendum date was set in stone yet here we are having to raise funds via quiz nights etc and we're the ones supposed to be being funded by some billionaire?

_Dara_ · 01-04-2018 2:24am

January wrote: »

I'll use the term I like thanks, people here have called me a murderer so it's all good.

They've called and dropped into the venue and told them that if they go ahead with the quiz they'll lose their custom.

From my pub- and shop-worker days - people who trot out those kind of threats are custom that’s not needed. And it’s often an empty threat. What, if you’re invited to an event there, you’re not going to go?

I hope the venue doesn’t capitulate.

applehunter · 01-04-2018 4:44am

January wrote: »

Anti-choice side at it again, contacting our venue for our quiz night and putting pressure on them to cancel

I completely disagree with this. I hope the pub doesn't bow down to that kind of tactic.

Why are you organising a quiz night?

Q.1. Why are you not out canvassing?

Referendum is in 8 weeks.

January · 01-04-2018 8:52am

applehunter wrote: »

I completely disagree with this. I hope the pub doesn't bow down to that kind of tactic.

Why are you organising a quiz night?

Q.1. Why are you not out canvassing?

Referendum is in 8 weeks.

The national campaign needs funds badly so we hold fundraisers.

We are out canvassing, who said we weren't?

Guy:Incognito · 01-04-2018 9:30am

Being as vague as i can, its an ongoing thing. Business I know , aimed at kids, organised a crowd to do leaflet drops recently , paid to have only theirs done , separately to anything else. On the north side of Dublin I think ( the drop) . Somehow pro life propaganda with graphic picture(s) made it's way inside the stuff being dropped . So the first anyone (outside of whoever put it there) knew about it is when some young kids were looking at it.

Ended up all over Facebook.

January · 01-04-2018 9:35am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Being as vague as i can, its an ongoing thing. Business I know , aimed at kids, organised a crowd to do leaflet drops recently , paid to have only theirs done , separately to anything else. On the north side of Dublin I think ( the drop) . Somehow pro life propaganda with graphic picture(s) made it's way inside the stuff being dropped . So the first anyone (outside of whoever put it there) knew about it is when some young kids were looking at it.

Ended up all over Facebook.

Same thing happened with a news paper down west. I know what you're talking about and both businesses are fuming at what happened. Seems to have been the distribution company at fault here.

Ave Sodalis · 01-04-2018 9:37am

I'm strongly considering printing out a bunch of leaflets of the FAQ on The Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists website, and posting them through letterboxes.

TerrorFirmer · 01-04-2018 9:41am

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I have often thought many in the anti choice side came across as control freaks.

I actually find the pro-choice side have become just as bad, if not actually worse on the far right end of the scale.

As someone who has attended quite a few debates/rallies on the issue, it's actually far easier to get reasoned debate from the pro-life side among those who attend events for either side.

Obviously most pro-life and most pro-choice people are reasonable people who have belief in their convictions but respect those of others.

But the radical 'repeal' crowd have become intolerable in my opinion. (I'm pro-choice, for reference)

Crea · 01-04-2018 10:57am

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I actually find the pro-choice side have become just as bad, if not actually worse on the far right end of the scale.

As someone who has attended quite a few debates/rallies on the issue, it's actually far easier to get reasoned debate from the pro-life side among those who attend events for either side.

Obviously most pro-life and most pro-choice people are reasonable people who have belief in their convictions but respect those of others.

But the radical 'repeal' crowd have become intolerable in my opinion. (I'm pro-choice, for reference)

Seriously??? The pro life campaign have used 2 spokespeople who have blatantly lied about their medical credentials - one said he was a nurse and the other claimed to be a medical doctor. This is shocking.
I've also seen downright lies being told by pro life and when we challenge them we are accused of being aggressive.
If you are against repeal you are against abortion in Ireland for rape, FFA, serious risk to health of the mother. There is no moderate anti repeal.,

Sofiztikated · 01-04-2018 11:17am

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I actually find the pro-choice side have become just as bad, if not actually worse on the far right end of the scale.

As someone who has attended quite a few debates/rallies on the issue, it's actually far easier to get reasoned debate from the pro-life side among those who attend events for either side.

Obviously most pro-life and most pro-choice people are reasonable people who have belief in their convictions but respect those of others.

But the radical 'repeal' crowd have become intolerable in my opinion. (I'm pro-choice, for reference)

That hasn't been my experience.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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