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Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled

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  • 12-02-2014 7:26pm
    #1
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭


    The new guidelines on Permission to reside in the State on the basis of marriage to an Irish national have been published.

    Applicants will be required to meet the criteria as set out in the "Policy Document on Non-EEA Family Reunification" published on 31 December 2013.

    17.2 An Irish citizen, in order to sponsor an immediate family member, must not have been totally or predominantly reliant on benefits from the Irish State for a continuous period in excess of 2 years immediately prior to the application and must over the three year period prior to application have earned a cumulative gross income over and above any State benefits of not less than €40k."

    So if you were working a minimum wage and have been on the dole for the past year, you cannot live with your Non-EU spouse. Equally if you earned minimum wage for the last two years and spent a year on the dole your spouse is excluded.
    Social welfare payments will not be reckonable as earnings for this purpose.

    These new guidelines seem to exclude the poorest members of society, and the disabled from having choice in their marriages.

    How is this even constitutional?
    Article 41.3.1 wrote:
    the State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded

    Are you feeling me AH?


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Comments

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    #2
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users Posts: 9,167 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    Seems fair(not your dramatic title, but the law).

    How could you sponsor someone if you don't have the means to support yourself? It's the same in most other countries, including the US.


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    #3
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Fr_Dougal wrote: »
    Seems fair(not your dramatic title, but the law).

    How could you sponsor someone if you don't have the means to support yourself? It's the same in most other countries, including the US.

    If I am disabled, and someone wants to marry me and support me by working, first they have be able to legally work.

    Being on benefits should not limit the pool of people I can marry in my view.

    As for the US, the requirement is a mere 125% of the poverty level. The poverty level in Ireland is €10,831 per adult per annum, so this equates I suppose. However Ireland has nothing like the immigration pressure of the US.


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    #4
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Sounds right


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    #5
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.


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    #6
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Boombastic wrote: »
    Sounds right

    Let's see.

    I work at a €38,950 p.a. job, go on holiday, fall in love.
    She comes over on holiday, decided to stay and gets a job in her specialist field on a Visa.
    I have a terrible accident, and cannot work.
    We marry.
    She is still working and supportive but her visa is coming to an end.
    I do not qualify and she has to leave the country.


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    #7
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Another scenario.

    I work overseas for 2 years, I fall in love and marry.
    I cannot (under these guidelines) bring my spouse home to Ireland.


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    #8
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users Posts: 9,167 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    MadsL wrote: »
    The poverty level in Ireland is €10,831 per adult per annum, so this equates I suppose.

    I see...so we are no better, and no worse than most countries.

    Nothing to see here, move along....

    By the way, it was a cheap-shot to bring the disabled into this equation.


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    #9
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    And if someone is shít out of luck, due to being unemployed for 2 years straight? They can't just magically find a job - remember that we've got 28 people per job vacancy; in this economy, long term unemployment, is generally not the fault of the person who is unemployed - why should they (and their spouse) be penalized like this?


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    #10
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Fr_Dougal wrote: »
    I see...so we are no better, and no worse than most countries.

    Nothing to see here, move along....

    I'm not sure that is the case, hence the discussion. I have personal experience of this situation so hold the dismissive tone.
    By the way, it was a cheap-shot to bring the disabled into this equation.

    Is it not the case the disabled are severely impacted by this? I think disabled rights are pretty affected by this guideline.


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    #11
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    MadsL wrote: »
    Let's see.

    I work at a €38,950 p.a. job, go on holiday, fall in love.
    She comes over on holiday, decided to stay and gets a job in her specialist field on a Visa.
    I have a terrible accident, and cannot work.
    We marry.
    She is still working and supportive but her visa is coming to an end.
    I do not qualify and she has to leave the country.

    Cumulative gross income
    Continuously/ partially claiming benefits for 2years




    Why do you wait until 2 years after the accident to apply for the visa?



    Have you read hat you quoted in the OP?


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    #12
    Days 298
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭Days 298


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    And if someone is shít out of luck, due to being unemployed for 2 years straight? They can't just magically find a job - remember that we've got 28 people per job vacancy; in this economy, long term unemployment, is generally not the fault of the person who is unemployed - why should they (and their spouse) be penalized like this?

    So you want the state to support this persons husband/wife? How about no just like most countries.


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    #13
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Boombastic wrote: »
    Cumulative gross income
    Continuously/ partially claiming benefits for 2years
    Why do you wait until 2 years after the accident to apply for the visa?
    Have you read hat you quoted in the OP?

    The rules only changed in Dec 2013.
    What if we only married last week?

    Did you read this?

    "Social welfare payments will not be reckonable as earnings for this purpose."


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    #14
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Days 298 wrote: »
    So you want the state to support this persons husband/wife? How about no just like most countries.

    How about if the new immigrant is highly skilled and can work and take this person off benefits?


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    #15
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    MadsL wrote: »
    The rules only changed in Dec 2013.
    What if we only married last week?

    Did you read this?

    "Social welfare payments will not be reckonable as earnings for this purpose."

    Can you explain how someone 'earns' social welfare? Why would it be classed as earnings?


    In answer to your other question, tough sh1t


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    #16
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Days 298 wrote: »
    So you want the state to support this persons husband/wife? How about no just like most countries.
    A person with a job, can marry and bring over a wife, who then claims benefits - should they be penalized too?

    A person with no job, who marries and who's partner has a job, can not sponsor them - that doesn't affect state support at all either, it's needlessly discriminating against someone because they are unemployed long-term.


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    #17
    Get off my lawn!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Get off my lawn!


    MadsL wrote: »
    Another scenario.

    I work overseas for 2 years, I fall in love and marry.
    I cannot (under these guidelines) bring my spouse home to Ireland.

    I don't see that in the piece that you quoted? :confused:


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    #18
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭hfallada


    It's probably to stop sham marriage. There is a lot of eastern Europe women being non EU nationals in Ireland so they can get green cards here. Why should the tax payer have to support an individual of a sham marriage.

    It's funny how some are against same sex marriages as they are an action on the institution of marriage. But Dont question shame marriages


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    #19
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,815 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    hfallada wrote: »
    It's probably to stop sham marriage. There is a lot of eastern Europe women being non EU nationals in Ireland so they can get green cards here. Why should the tax payer have to support an individual of a sham marriage.

    It's funny how some are against same sex marriages as they are an action on the institution of marriage. But Dont question shame marriages

    Is there a lot of sham marriages?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #20
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    MadsL wrote: »
    If I am disabled, and someone wants to marry me and support me by working, first they have be able to legally work.

    Being on benefits should not limit the pool of people I can marry in my view.

    As for the US, the requirement is a mere 125% of the poverty level. The poverty level in Ireland is €10,831 per adult per annum, so this equates I suppose. However Ireland has nothing like the immigration pressure of the US.

    oh please :rolleyes:

    no one is limiting your pool. we, the tax payer, just dont wanna pick up the tab.


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    #21
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    MadsL wrote: »
    The rules only changed in Dec 2013.
    What if we only married last week?

    Did you read this?

    "Social welfare payments will not be reckonable as earnings for this purpose."

    Have you missed the point that it is 40k earning cumulatively over the past 3 years? Not average but cumulative! Seems more than reasonable.


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    #22
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    hfallada wrote: »
    It's probably to stop sham marriage. There is a lot of eastern Europe women being non EU nationals in Ireland so they can get green cards here. Why should the tax payer have to support an individual of a sham marriage.

    How many? Source for this? There is no such thing as a "Green Card" in Ireland. There is a Permission to Remain which can be revoked at the will of the Minister.
    It's funny how some are against same sex marriages as they are an action on the institution of marriage. But Dont question shame marriages

    What has that got to do with this? There are plenty of ways to detect sham marriages.


    EDIT: INIS are in fact using the term "Green Card" - I stand corrected, this is new since my dealings with INIS.


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    #23
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Steven Uninterested Orchestra wrote: »
    Have you missed the point that it is 40k earning cumulatively over the past 3 years? Not average but cumulative! Seems more than reasonable.

    And if I am unable to work as I have a mental illness or I am blind say?


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    #24
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Is there a lot of sham marriages?

    don't have the stats but i know personally of three EE girls who married guys from Pakistan and Mauritius (i think) if order to get into Ireland to work. Went pear-shaped for one girl when your man went AWAL and now she is basically stuck married to him and can't marry her new partner.

    it's not something people are open about obviously because it's illegal and the women are doing it for money


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    #25
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    oh please :rolleyes:

    no one is limiting your pool. we, the tax payer, just dont wanna pick up the tab.

    So automatically spouses are deemed leeches. Nice.

    How about if you disbarred them from claiming benefits? Then no-one is picking up the tab.


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    #26
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    don't have the stats but i know personally of three EE girls who married guys from Pakistan and Mauritius (i think) if order to get into Ireland to work. Went pear-shaped for one girl when your man went AWAL and now she is basically stuck married to him and can't marry her new partner.

    Have you reported them?


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    #27
    JustAddWater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭JustAddWater


    MadsL wrote: »
    And if I am unable to work as I have a mental illness or I am blind say?

    Did you ever see Stevie Wonders wife?


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    #28
    Get off my lawn!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Get off my lawn!


    To be honest, this seems kind of backwards. What if the non-EU spouse is the one with better job prospects? I'm a non-EU citizen, and when I lived in Ireland briefly dated someone who was unemployed due to temporary medical disability. I, on the other hand, had a steady income. So when my visa expired, he couldn't sponsor me for a spousal visa, even though I would have met the income qualifications? Hm. :confused:


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    #29
    AndonHandon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭AndonHandon


    MadsL wrote: »
    Let's see.

    I work at a €38,950 p.a. job, go on holiday, fall in love.
    She comes over on holiday, decided to stay and gets a job in her specialist field on a Visa.
    I have a terrible accident, and cannot work.
    We marry.
    She is still working and supportive but her visa is coming to an end.
    I do not qualify and she has to leave the country.
    MadsL wrote: »
    Another scenario.

    I work overseas for 2 years, I fall in love and marry.
    I cannot (under these guidelines) bring my spouse home to Ireland.

    Why do you have to fall in love before you marry?


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    #30
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    MadsL wrote: »
    Have you reported them?

    they're back in their respective homelands now and i don't know who the men are so, no


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    #31
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    MadsL wrote: »
    How about if you disbarred them from claiming benefits? Then no-one is picking up the tab.
    yeah that seems reasonable but i have no doubt you would start a thread about their inability to claim benefits it that were the case


This discussion has been closed.
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