Gender neutral kids clothing

KERSPLAT! · 07-06-2016 08:32PM

And that's enough of that.

Locking till an AH mod has time to go through the thread. I've no idea when that'll be.

Cheers

Skylinehead · 07-06-2016 09:33PM

Opened again.... be civil, and nothing transphobic please.

One eyed Jack · 07-06-2016 10:01PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

I can't reconcile this with what stefanovich is saying.

Two different posters having two different opinions on an issue is hardly surprising. stefanovich and I clearly aren't the same person, so our opinions expressed may differ, and I'm not sure why you'd assume we should share the same opinion tbh.

One person is saying it's wrong because there's no research happening. And another person is saying it's wrong because research happened and the medical guidelines got updated. This is exactly why I listen to the experts, and not random punters with no education on the issue in After Hours.

Curiously enough, I was thinking the very same thing.

I know very few people who want to be trans. I know a lot of people, who, if given the option to be not trans they would take it. But that's not reality. That's not what medicine and science says. If in twenty years they discovered, "Ah, this pill will alleviate all the trans symptoms!" I doubt very few actual trans people (rather than a few teenagers from tumblr)who wouldn't take it.

Would you care to tell me who appointed you the arbiter of who qualifies to identify as transgender and who doesn't? Seems rather strange that you would take that position while berating other people for their position - random punters with no education you say, and teenagers on tumblr who identify as transgender... Is there anyone else is excluded from your arbitration on whose opinion is and isn't valid? So far the only people who's opinions you consider valid are those whose you agree with.

Coincidental, isn't it?

But the science isn't showing that. What it is showing is that the best treatment for being trans is to facilitate transition. What you seem to want is for people to ignore our current best treatment because you have a gut feeling, based on absolutely zero formal education in the matter. And with no indication that what you're saying is correct. That's blatant anti-intellectualism and celebration of stupidity.

That's not what I'm saying at all, so it's no wonder you think I have zero formal education on the matter, and no indication that what I'm saying is correct. Of course it's blatant anti-intellectualism and a celebration of stupidity when it isn't anything like what I said, nor do you have any clue of my experience of the issue. Good thing I don't base my opinion on the opinions of random punters in AH then.

Ah, yes. The political fundraising powerhouse that is Big Trans!

Only matched by the political powerhouse that is Random Punters With No Education On The Issue!!

EDIT: And teenagers on tumblr, of course.

Annasopra · 07-06-2016 10:10PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Would you care to tell me who appointed you the arbiter of who qualifies to identify as transgender and who doesn't? Seems rather strange that you would take that position while berating other people for their position - random punters with no education you say, and teenagers on tumblr who identify as transgender... Is there anyone else is excluded from your arbitration on whose opinion is and isn't valid? So far the only people who's opinions you consider valid are those whose you agree with.

What? I read Lyaieras post you responded to and I really haven't a clue what you are on about? Lyaieras post was nothing to do with deciding who is trans and who isn't - all they said was that some teenagers on tumblr wouldn't take a pill to alleiate symptoms associated with being trans. Nothing to do with any deciding at all on who is trans and who isn't.

Annasopra · 07-06-2016 10:14PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

It makes a few happy. The rest continue getting angrier and angrier, you cannot say you don't see this online. And it's either because they understand what I outlined earlier, or they don't.

Where's your evidence that most post op trans people are unhappy? And I'm not talking about a few angry trans people on the internet I'm looking for actual scientific evidence.

One eyed Jack · 07-06-2016 10:18PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What? I read Lyaieras post you responded to and I really haven't a clue what you are on about? Lyaieras post was nothing to do with deciding who is trans and who isn't - all they said was that some teenagers on tumblr wouldn't take a pill to alleiate symptoms associated with being trans. Nothing to do with any deciding at all on who is trans and who isn't.

Oh?

Lyaiera wrote: »

I know very few people who want to be trans. I know a lot of people, who, if given the option to be not trans they would take it. But that's not reality. That's not what medicine and science says. If in twenty years they discovered, "Ah, this pill will alleviate all the trans symptoms!" I doubt very few actual trans people (rather than a few teenagers from tumblr) who wouldn't take it.

So, who decides who is an "actual" person who identifies as transgender, and who decides who's just a teenager from tumblr?

I purposely ignored Lyaiera's opinion on who would or wouldn't take it because that opinion too is only based upon her gut feeling, which isn't a very scientific basis upon which anything should be decided really.

Annasopra · 07-06-2016 10:25PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Oh?

So, who decides who is an "actual" person who identifies as transgender, and who decides who's just a teenager from tumblr?

I purposely ignored Lyaiera's opinion on who would or wouldn't take it because that opinion too is only based upon her gut feeling, which isn't a very scientific basis upon which anything should be decided really.

What? seriously what?

You're completely and utterly twisting something out of nothing. Nowhere did Lyaiera suggest that they can decide who is and isn't trans.

ceadaoin. · 07-06-2016 10:30PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Where's your evidence that most post op trans people are unhappy? And I'm not talking about a few angry trans people on the internet I'm looking for actual scientific evidence.

I don't know about "most" being unhappy, I'm sure they arent. As far as I know there has only been one long term study performed and that found that post op trans people still have suicide and mortality rates far higher than the general population

Results

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

One eyed Jack · 07-06-2016 10:32PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What? seriously what?

You're completely and utterly twisting something out of nothing. Nowhere did Lyaiera suggest that they can decide who is and isn't trans.

I think I'll wait then for Lyaiera to explain how she distinguishes between an actual trans person, and a person who they would claim isn't an actual trans person, and exactly what gives her the right to make that determination for anyone else but herself.

Renegade Mechanic · 07-06-2016 10:33PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Where's your evidence that most post op trans people are unhappy? And I'm not talking about a few angry trans people on the internet I'm looking for actual scientific evidence.

Because scientists are the first to "go against the flow" lately... Would a survey suffice?

http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/

The most recent, comprehensive data on suicide attempts was gathered by The Williams Institute, in collaboration with the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. Its report, Suicide Attempts Among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults, analyzed responses from 6,456 self-identified transgender and gender non-conforming adults (18+) who took part in the U.S. National Transgender Discrimination Survey. The results are staggering.

Beyond the overall number of suicide attempts, the rates are consistently high from respondents ages 18 to 65, when they begin to recede. Trans men are the most impacted, with 46 percent reporting an attempt in their lifetime. Trans women are close behind at 42 percent, and female-assigned cross-dressers report rates of 44 percent.

Compared to an "overall" of under 5%....
The suicides are too high.
The suicide attempts are WAY too high.

Enablement isnt working. It's "the easy option". And it's costing way too many people their futures.

Annasopra · 07-06-2016 10:45PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I don't know about "most" being unhappy, I'm sure they arent. As far as I know there has only been one long term study performed and that found that post op trans people still have suicide and mortality rates far higher than the general population

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Well yes that's completely understandable

The study was from 1973 to 2003 in Sweden

So obviously you need to look at culture changes since then and even Sweden with it's supposed liberal outlook was legally forcing trans people to be sterilised something the UN now sees as Torture http://tgeu.org/another-victory-for-trans-rights-at-the-un/

There is some good explanations about why mortality and suicide are higher

Mortality due to cardiovascular disease was significantly increased among sex reassigned individuals, albeit these results should be interpreted with caution due to the low number of events. This contrasts, however, a Dutch follow-up study that reported no increased risk for cardiovascular events.[10], [11] A recent meta-analysis concluded, however, that data on cardiovascular outcome after cross-sex steroid use are sparse, inconclusive, and of very low quality.[34]

With respect to neoplasms, prolonged hormonal treatment might increase the risk for malignancies,[36] but no previous study has tested this possibility. Our data suggested that the cause-specific risk of death from neoplasms was increased about twice (borderline statistical significance). These malignancies (see Results), however, are unlikely to be related to cross-hormonal treatment.

There might be other explanations to increased cardiovascular death and malignancies. Smoking was in one study reported in almost 50% by the male-to females and almost 20% by female-to-males.[9] It is also possible that transsexual persons avoid the health care system due to a presumed risk of being discriminated.

Mortality from suicide was strikingly high among sex-reassigned persons, also after adjustment for prior psychiatric morbidity. In line with this, sex-reassigned persons were at increased risk for suicide attempts. Previous reports [6], [8], [10], [11] suggest that transsexualism is a strong risk factor for suicide, also after sex reassignment, and our long-term findings support the need for continued psychiatric follow-up for persons at risk to prevent this.

Inpatient care for psychiatric disorders was significantly more common among sex-reassigned persons than among matched controls, both before and after sex reassignment. It is generally accepted that transsexuals have more psychiatric ill-health than the general population prior to the sex reassignment.[18], [21], [22], [33] It should therefore come as no surprise that studies have found high rates of depression,[9] and low quality of life[16], [25] also after sex reassignment. Notably, however, in this study the increased risk for psychiatric hospitalisation persisted even after adjusting for psychiatric hospitalisation prior to sex reassignment. This suggests that even though sex reassignment alleviates gender dysphoria, there is a need to identify and treat co-occurring psychiatric morbidity in transsexual persons not only before but also after sex reassignment.

But renegade mechanic is positing that the majority of post op people are unhappy based solely on a few angry internet posts

Renegade Mechanic · 07-06-2016 10:52PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But renegade mechanic is positing that the majority of post op people are unhappy based solely on a few angry internet posts

Rather the opposite. Ive made a few posts here now explaining that, but this one should do.

Let's just take it from the male perspective for now. A man will never be a woman, period.
There's more to women than long hair, boobs, pretty clothes and the absence of male genitalia.
And, women have something men will never understand. A fanny... And everything behind it... A life factory. The responsibility and terror of minding and growing another human inside them. The effort of maintaining that assembly of er.. organs. And the desire to kill it with bleach once every month, but resisting that urge. That's what is is be a woman. And more besides.
Man will never be that, no matter how much they want it. Tough ****, it's biologically impossible, you are just going to have to make peace with that. If someone can't, they should be entitled to all help in getting them to come to terms with it.
Chopping off yer meat and two veg doesn't make a woman, it makes a eunuch. Pumping it full of hormones makes it a hormonal eunuch.

I get that it might not be the body you want, but it's the one you were given. You'll never have the one your brain desires, only modifications of this one.
Far too late, many realise that. But of course, most people never think that far, or deeply...

Two Tone · 07-06-2016 10:52PM

I would assume the unhappiness experienced by post op trans people is a lot of the time due to marginalisation and loneliness?

Annasopra · 07-06-2016 10:58PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Because scientists are the first to "go against the flow" lately... Would a survey suffice?

http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/

Compared to an "overall" of under 5%....
The suicides are too high.
The suicide attempts are WAY too high.

Enablement isnt working. It's "the easy option". And it's costing way too many people their futures.

That's not answering the question I asked at all. You specifically said post op people become unhappier. And I asked for evidence of that.

I'm not denying that suicide and parasuicide amongst trans people at all.

The report is interesting in looking at the various causes of suicide but it still doesn't prove your thesis whatsoever that most post op people are unhappy.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Speedwell · 07-06-2016 11:09PM

How many posters on here who claim to "know" this or that about trans people and people of other nonstandard gender identity actually know any such people in real life? Some of the things claimed about trans people in general would quite surprise a lot of my friends in the art and writing scenes in the US.

Renegade Mechanic · 07-06-2016 11:27PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

That's not answering the question I asked at all. You specifically said post op people become unhappier. And I asked for evidence of that.

I'm not denying that suicide and parasuicide amongst trans people at all.

The report is interesting in looking at the various causes of suicide but it still doesn't prove your thesis whatsoever that most post op people are unhappy.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Ok, put yourself in their shoes, again as a man to woman.
You got everything.
The operation, the name change, the legal documents, etc etc.

The brain thinks it's female and craves a female body.
What it's got is a modified male body.

I'm sorry, but common sense and introspection is going to lead to that conclusion, once you've looked at enough women and realise you're still not like them. It's going to lead to sadness, or even jealousy.

Wether it's the fact that you have none of the deeper physical and biological attributes that define a woman that I explained earlier, or something more subtle like you not having "the walk" that women have, because of the differences between male/female hip bone positioning. Even through practice, people tell - generally women themselves - that it's not real.
Things like this are obviously very important to how a person will perceive themselves as the stakes are much higher for their image success than most.

It's going to lead to a point where every time you see yourself in the mirror, all you're going to think is - I've come as far as possible. But I still don't have the body my brain wants
Would you honestly be happy?

That's the problem.
Gender dysphoria.
The brain wants something that is physically impossible.
You have to help that brain to realise it, and come to terms with the situation now.

But everyone seems intent on the idea that you can pretend otherwise and they lie through their teeth to these people about what can be done for them instead.

And thats before the whole "passing" thing.
I was talking about the ones who "do".
The majority "don't". And, because beauty and body image is EVERYTHING in the world of younger women, that's going to lead to even more uncomfortable places aswell.

One eyed Jack · 07-06-2016 11:32PM

Speedwell wrote: »

How many posters on here who claim to "know" this or that about trans people and people of other nonstandard gender identity actually know any such people in real life?

I know, and have known, plenty of people who identify as transgender and nonstandard gender if you like, it's not as though they only come out at night and lurk in the shadows or anything. They lead normal lives like anyone else and they have their own individual personalities like anyone else. Some of them are great craic, some of them are a pain in the hole, sometimes some of them are a bit of both, like anyone else really.

Some of the things claimed about trans people in general would quite surprise a lot of my friends in the art and writing scenes in the US.

Is there some reason in particular you think anyone should be conscious of, or pay any attention to the opinions of your friends in the art and writing scenes in the US?

My name is URL · 07-06-2016 11:35PM

stefanovich wrote: »

I do care because it does affect me. People are actively trying to change what is perceived as normal in society

One day you'll look back on that and realise just how much of a non-argument it is.

Speedwell · 07-06-2016 11:41PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I know, and have known, plenty of people who identify as transgender and nonstandard gender if you like, it's not as though they only come out at night and lurk in the shadows or anything. They lead normal lives like anyone else and they have their own individual personalities like anyone else. Some of them are great craic, some of them are a pain in the hole, sometimes some of them are a bit of both, like anyone else really.

"Normal lives like anyone else" is often too high a hurdle, even for the ones who "pass" the best (should they so choose, and many do not so choose, and they should be left alone to be themselves unless they're harming someone).

Is there some reason in particular you think anyone should be conscious of, or pay any attention to the opinions of your friends in the art and writing scenes in the US?

Well, the ones I mean are not only traditionally gendered but also trans, demigendered, nongendered, pangendered, and genderfluid, so I would guess they would have something to say about living among people of different genders and the real issues they face. That's always valuable.

Two Tone · 07-06-2016 11:53PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

My daughter wore dresses and played with dolls my son wears violent superheroe t shirts and likes to play with toy guns

by today's whack job standards I am probably classed as a bad parent

Of course you're not. The vast majority of parents/children are similar - has anyone in your day-to-day life ever criticised you for these things? Tut-tutting remarks would be in relation to the likes of a boy wearing a pink ballet tutu. In other words, nothing has changed apart from a small number of people either pushing an agenda or genuinely not wanting their children to feel confined by their gender.

The pretence that this is being forced on everyone to the point that children cannot be dressed in traditional gender-based clothing any longer is as hysterical as the "Won't someone think of the children" stuff.

wakka12 · 08-06-2016 12:13AM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Because scientists are the first to "go against the flow" lately... Would a survey suffice?

http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/

Compared to an "overall" of under 5%....
The suicides are too high.
The suicide attempts are WAY too high.

Enablement isnt working. It's "the easy option". And it's costing way too many people their futures.

Um so you think labelling them as mentally ill and allowing them no chance of transitioning will bring the suicide rates back down to figures in line with the rest of the populace ?:roll eyes:
Im sure discrimination, prejudice, isolation and financial issues play a huge factor in mental health of trans people and contribute much more to the high suicide rates than any transitioning surgery

One eyed Jack · 08-06-2016 12:26AM

Speedwell wrote: »

"Normal lives like anyone else" is often too high a hurdle, even for the ones who "pass" the best (should they so choose, and many do not so choose, and they should be left alone to be themselves unless they're harming someone).

That's absolutely true, but, it's also true of anyone who feels they don't fit in with society for any reason, or indeed feels that they don't want to fit in with society, for any reason. Unfortunately none of us live in a world where everyone else will suit us, or we will suit everyone else, and if the goal is a cohesive society, then there has to be understanding and tolerance on everyone's part, and that goes double for anyone who wants society to understand them, rather than rejecting society and trying to live their life solely on their own terms. That's not to say it can't be done, it can, but it's bloody lonely!

Well, the ones I mean are not only traditionally gendered but also trans, demigendered, nongendered, pangendered, and genderfluid, so I would guess they would have something to say about living among people of different genders and the real issues they face. That's always valuable.

Ahh right, I thought it was a curiously specific demographic alright, particularly as anyone I've known who identified as transgender or any nonstandard gender were from all sorts of backgrounds and all walks of life and anywhere from 6 to 60 (though I think she was lying about her age, probably shaved a few years off :pac:).

hatrickpatrick · 08-06-2016 12:28AM

I have no problem with the clothes themselves, it's the political agenda they're pushing that I take serious issue with.

Two Tone · 08-06-2016 12:30AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have no problem with the clothes themselves, it's the political agenda they're pushing that I take serious issue with.

Aye, let the children choose for themselves rather than pushing an ideology on them.

wakka12 · 08-06-2016 12:30AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have no problem with the clothes themselves, it's the political agenda they're pushing that I take serious issue with.

Whats the agenda ?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 08-06-2016 12:40AM

Haven't read the thread, ain't got the concentration span for that, but in all honesty are a bunch of adults really arguing over what kind of clothes a group of kids wants to wear? Who cares.

Renegade Mechanic · 08-06-2016 12:47AM

wakka12 wrote: »

Um so you think labelling them as mentally ill and allowing them no chance of transitioning will bring the suicide rates back down to figures in line with the rest of the populace ? :roll eyes:
Im sure discrimination, prejudice, isolation and financial issues play a huge factor in mental health of trans people and contribute much more to the high suicide rates than any transitioning surgery

No, I think helping them accept the body they're stuck with, and deal with it day to day will result in lower suicide/unhappiness rates than promising them something that science simply can't give them, short of literally taking the brain out of their body and putting it into the head of another.

Discrimination, prejudice, isolation and financial issues will hurt the mental health of just about everyone. And, generally, they get help with that.

But what you're saying, reads like people are selling these people lies, and then blaming us when it inevitably backfires. Which is largely true.
I know some are perfectly happy. More power to them, but far too many aren't. And many of the ones that are, will themselves fall later in life.

Oh, and:

wakka12 wrote: »

Whats the agenda ?

In a nutshell?
"Being masculine is a bad thing".

Two Tone · 08-06-2016 12:52AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Haven't read the thread, ain't got the concentration span for that, but in all honesty are a bunch of adults really arguing over what kind of clothes a group of kids wants to wear?

More like what adults are choosing for them to wear.

Who cares.

Lots seem to.

wakka12 · 08-06-2016 01:12AM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

No, I think helping them accept the body they're stuck with, and deal with it day to day will result in lower suicide/unhappiness rates than promising them something that science simply can't give them, short of literally taking the brain out of their body and putting it into the head of another.

Discrimination, prejudice, isolation and financial issues will hurt the mental health of just about everyone. And, generally, they get help with that.

But what you're saying, reads like people are selling these people lies, and then blaming us when it inevitably backfires. Which is largely true.
I know some are perfectly happy. More power to them, but far too many aren't. And many of the ones that are, will themselves fall later in life.

Oh, and:

In a nutshell?
"Being masculine is a bad thing".

And in future when cosmetic surgery improves and trans people can be given perfectly functioning bodies of the other gender, would you approve of it then?

Samaris · 08-06-2016 01:25AM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

In a nutshell?
"Being masculine is a bad thing".

You're aware of female-to-male transgender, right?

Just checking how that fits into the paranoia.

Gender neutral kids clothing

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