Gender neutral kids clothing

My name is URL · 07-06-2016 06:51PM

I don't really get the whole gender-fluidity thing myself but whatever.

What I get even less though is why anyone really cares, let alone get seemingly annoyed and angry at the idea that these clothes will be available.

If it has no bearing on your life then why do you care?

Are people that insecure in themselves that they believe the availability of such clothes will potentially be enough to change their lives in some way?

It's kinda pathetic really.

RWCNT · 07-06-2016 06:56PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Do you think discrimination has anything to do with someone choosing to take their own life?

And how do you quantify a suicide rate on the basis of one issue alone, let alone claim that it is a high suicide rate in comparison to any other reason as to why someone chooses to take their own life?

Of course I do. I think loads of stuff can add to the burden that could see someone take their own life.

I wouldn't try to quantify a suicide rate on the basis of one thing alone. Nor did I make the claim you're referring to. I asked the poster if they thought it had something to do with it.

Interesting how you havnt asked the other poster the same questions in relation to them correlating the suicide rate with people regretting surgery.

wakka12 · 07-06-2016 06:57PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

You're just being pedantic now. Petulant, even.
In fact I'm not entirely sure where to start with this post.
If I'm ok with braces, then I'm supposed to be ok with attempts at gender transition? Because the results both have on the persons life is identical?

Ignoring the fact that my teeth are so wonky I could eat an apple through chicken wire, I didn't choose to let them as they are because that's what I was born with. I left them as they are because they do chew fine, and a little extra effort in cleaning them is the only effect. And if having a ugly smile keeps some people away, well I'm not missing much in their absence now, am I...

Now, if unavoidable infections came about due to severe misalignment and constant pain, then I'd get my arse into a dentist.
Er, preferably one that did monthly payments...

My point is that Im sure you're fine with people spending lots of money on unnecessary dental surgery for perfect teeth, when perfect teeth arent necessary in your opinion. But most people are fine with this as people are allowed to enhance or modify their bodies the way they want to. So why is gender transition surgery any different, these people arent harming their bodies, they want to change their bodies to look how they want. It makes them happy, but you want them labelled as mentally ill and stopped from doing this

Renegade Mechanic · 07-06-2016 07:04PM

RWCNT wrote: »

You don't think discrimination might have something to do with the high level of suicide at all?

Oh it definitely has lots to do with it. Because even though the knuckle dragging gob****es that actually go out of their way to discriminate, they don't actually understand what they're doing, other than being total gob****es, "for the craic".

But for the unfortunate soul left at this dead end, it hurts ten times more, because all they can think of is one thing.

'They're right.

Let's just take it from the male perspective. A man will never be a woman, period.
There's more to women than long hair, boobs, pretty clothes and the absence of male genitalia.
And, women have something men will never understand. A fanny... And everything behind it... A life factory. The responsibility and terror of minding and growing another human inside them. The effort of maintaining that assembly of er.. organs. And the desire to kill it with bleach once every month, but resisting that urge. That's what is is be a woman. And more besides.
Man will never be that, no matter how much they want it. Tough ****, it's biologically impossible, you are just going to have to make peace with that. If someone can't, they should be entitled to all help in getting them to come to terms with it.
Chopping off yer meat and two veg doesn't make a woman, it makes a eunuch. Pumping it full of hormones makes it a hormonal eunuch.

I get that it might not be the body you want, but it's the one you were given. You'll never have the one your brain desires, only modifications of this one.
Far too late, many realise that. But of course, most people never think that far, or deeply...

One eyed Jack · 07-06-2016 07:20PM

RWCNT wrote: »

Of course I do. I think loads of stuff can add to the burden that could see someone take their own life.

So you agree it can't just be whittled down to one convenient excuse that suits your purposes for your argument then? I'm glad we cleared that one up.

I wouldn't try to quantify a suicide rate on the basis of one thing alone. Nor did I make the claim you're referring to. I asked the poster if they thought it had something to do with it.

You gave it your best try all the same.

Interesting how you havnt asked the other poster the same questions in relation to them correlating the suicide rate with people regretting surgery.

Nothing interesting about it really, I'm entirely biased in favour of further investigation and efforts being made to help people with gender dysphoria, without the use of hormones and surgical procedures.

The issue is one of perception. That comes from the mind, not the body.

Lyaiera · 07-06-2016 07:23PM

It's great how so many people know better than the GPs, psychiatrists, psychologists, endocrinologists, surgeons, etc. And of course trans people themselves. If only people listened to you, the world would be a better place. It is what it is, and I feel it in my gut. That's how things work.

Mint Aero · 07-06-2016 07:28PM

So basically dress boys in pink flowery girly sh*t and girls in masculine "cool" clothes and take pics of the boys hugging each other and the girls lifting fake weights. Wow ya so f*cking progressive, future LOVE gender neutral friendliness MEN DONT RAPE 2016 MEN CRY YA! FEMALE POWER FEMALE POWER! FEMALE POWER!

and so forth, that sum it up? :rolleyes:

Bob24 · 07-06-2016 07:30PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's great how so many people know better than the GPs, psychiatrists, psychologists, endocrinologists, surgeons, etc. And of course trans people themselves. If only people listened to you, the world would be a better place. It is what it is, and I feel it in my gut. That's how things work.

I know, if only the world could be run by specialist technocrats and common people could stop giving their stupid opinions!

One eyed Jack · 07-06-2016 07:31PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's great how so many people know better than the GPs, psychiatrists, psychologists, endocrinologists, surgeons, etc. And of course trans people themselves. If only people listened to you, the world would be a better place. It is what it is, and I feel it in my gut. That's how things work.

If only more people would listen to your gut, the world would be a better place and there would be universal agreement among everyone based upon your opinion. If that was the way things just worked, a lobotomy would still be the standard procedure for treating people we deem to be suffering from mental illness. I'll bet you're grateful there were people who questioned that particular method of treatment and through investigation found better ways to treat people.

Elemonator · 07-06-2016 07:34PM

Why can't I wear whatever I want? Why this gender fluid nonsense comes into the equation.........I don't know..........

Lyaiera · 07-06-2016 07:34PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If only more people would listen to your gut, the world would be a better place and there would be universal agreement among everyone based upon your opinion. If that was the way things just worked, a lobotomy would still be the standard procedure for treating people we deem to be suffering from mental illness. I'll bet you're grateful there were people who questioned that particular method of treatment and through investigation found better ways to treat people.

It's not my gut. It's the prevailing scientific and medical opinion. I find it aligns with what I think. If evidence came out that showed the correct treatment for trans people was something else I'd be all over it.

stefanovich · 07-06-2016 07:43PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't really get the whole gender-fluidity thing myself but whatever.

What I get even less though is why anyone really cares, let alone get seemingly annoyed and angry at the idea that these clothes will be available.

If it has no bearing on your life then why do you care?

Are people that insecure in themselves that they believe the availability of such clothes will potentially be enough to change their lives in some way?

It's kinda pathetic really.

I do care because it does affect me. People are actively trying to change what is perceived as normal in society.

wakka12 wrote: »

these people arent harming their bodies

You think that having your penis and testicles removed is doing no harm? Really?

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's great how so many people know better than the GPs, psychiatrists, psychologists, endocrinologists, surgeons, etc. And of course trans people themselves. If only people listened to you, the world would be a better place. It is what it is, and I feel it in my gut. That's how things work.

I am sure there are many of the above who disagree with it too.

One example of the sometimes non-scientific approach the medical community have to classification is demonstrated in the reclassification of homosexuality from the mental disorder to sexual orientation by popular vote.

RWCNT · 07-06-2016 07:46PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Oh it definitely has lots to do with it. Because even though the knuckle dragging gob****es that actually go out of their way to discriminate, they don't actually understand what they're doing, other than being total gob****es, "for the craic".

But for the unfortunate soul left at this dead end, it hurts ten times more, because all they can think of is one thing.

'They're right.

Let's just take it from the male perspective. A man will never be a woman, period.
There's more to women than long hair, boobs, pretty clothes and the absence of male genitalia.
And, women have something men will never understand. A fanny... And everything behind it... A life factory. The responsibility and terror of minding and growing another human inside them. The effort of maintaining that assembly of er.. organs. And the desire to kill it with bleach once every month, but resisting that urge. That's what is is be a woman. And more besides.
Man will never be that, no matter how much they want it. Tough ****, it's biologically impossible, you are just going to have to make peace with that. If someone can't, they should be entitled to all help in getting them to come to terms with it.
Chopping off yer meat and two veg doesn't make a woman, it makes a eunuch. Pumping it full of hormones makes it a hormonal eunuch.

I get that it might not be the body you want, but it's the one you were given. You'll never have the one your brain desires, only modifications of this one.
Far too late, many realise that. But of course, most people never think that far, or deeply...

I don't agree with you here at all. If I was in some bizzare accident and lost my dick I'd still be a man. Likewise women who can't have children are still women.

I actually agree with you partially, I don't think its the removal of body parts that makes someone a particular gender, or pretty clothes and long hair or any of that. The differences between gender and sex have been explained in the thread before. At the same time, Id really have to refer to Lyaiera's post with regards to your ideas on how they should be treated.

Lyaiera · 07-06-2016 07:48PM

stefanovich wrote: »

I am sure there are many of the above who disagree with it too.

One example of the sometimes non-scientific approach the medical community have to classification is demonstrated in the reclassification of homosexuality from the mental disorder to sexual orientation by popular vote.

Of course, the entire western world of medicine is getting it wrong. They were wrong about vaccines too, because lobotomies.

It's really just a bunch of eejits getting offended that the world isn't as simple as they'd like. They can't even bring themselves to imagine something existing outside their own small viewpoint. That's grand, I have no problem with it. But the people running the country, the HSE, big business, major international medical organisations, human rights organisations, scientific research organisations seem to be in agreement. So what Bob from Tallaght thinks doesn't really matter.

stefanovich · 07-06-2016 07:57PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Of course, the entire western world of medicine is getting it wrong. They were wrong about vaccines too, because lobotomies.

It's really just a bunch of eejits getting offended that the world isn't as simple as they'd like. They can't even bring themselves to imagine something existing outside their own small viewpoint. That's grand, I have no problem with it. But the people running the country, the HSE, big business, major international medical organisations, human rights organisations, scientific research organisations seem to be in agreement. So what Bob from Tallaght thinks doesn't really matter.

http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/27/being-transgender-no-longer-a-mental-disorder-in-diagnostic-manual/

Funny but it only got removed from the list of mental disorders in the DSM in 2012. Still in there as gender dysphoria.

Lyaiera · 07-06-2016 07:58PM

stefanovich wrote: »

http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/27/being-transgender-no-longer-a-mental-disorder-in-diagnostic-manual/

Funny but it only got removed from the list of mental disorders in the DSM in 2012. Still in there as gender dysphoria.

Yes. And the treatment is to facilitate transition.

stefanovich · 07-06-2016 07:59PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Yes. And the treatment is to facilitate transition.

So in 2012 the infallible medical community decided they were wrong and changed the definition? Or perhaps they bowed to pressure groups.

One eyed Jack · 07-06-2016 08:00PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Of course, the entire western world of medicine is getting it wrong. They were wrong about vaccines too, because lobotomies.

It's really just a bunch of eejits getting offended that the world isn't as simple as they'd like. They can't even bring themselves to imagine something existing outside their own small viewpoint. That's grand, I have no problem with it. But the people running the country, the HSE, big business, major international medical organisations, human rights organisations, scientific research organisations seem to be in agreement. So what Bob from Tallaght thinks doesn't really matter.

No they don't, that's the whole point of further research to determine better treatments. That way science and medicine aren't corrupted by politics.

But then that would be my idea of an ideal world, if it wasn't for those pesky people and their other ideas! :mad:

Renegade Mechanic · 07-06-2016 08:01PM

stefanovich wrote: »

So in 2012 the infallible medical community decided they were wrong and changed the definition? Or perhaps they bowed to pressure groups.

It's like most things, they bow in the direction the most money is coming from.

Lyaiera · 07-06-2016 08:07PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No they don't, that's the whole point of further research to determine better treatments. That way science and medicine aren't corrupted by politics.

But then that would be my idea of an ideal world, if it wasn't for those pesky people and their other ideas!

I can't reconcile this with what stefanovich is saying.

stefanovich wrote: »

So in 2012 the infallible medical community decided they were wrong and changed the definition? Or perhaps they bowed to pressure groups.

One person is saying it's wrong because there's no research happening. And another person is saying it's wrong because research happened and the medical guidelines got updated. This is exactly why I listen to the experts, and not random punters with no education on the issue in After Hours.

I know very few people who want to be trans. I know a lot of people, who, if given the option to be not trans they would take it. But that's not reality. That's not what medicine and science says. If in twenty years they discovered, "Ah, this pill will alleviate all the trans symptoms!" I doubt very few actual trans people (rather than a few teenagers from tumblr) who wouldn't take it.

But the science isn't showing that. What it is showing is that the best treatment for being trans is to facilitate transition. What you seem to want is for people to ignore our current best treatment because you have a gut feeling, based on absolutely zero formal education in the matter. And with no indication that what you're saying is correct. That's blatant anti-intellectualism and celebration of stupidity.

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

It's like most things, they bow in the direction the most money is coming from.

Ah, yes. The political fundraising powerhouse that is Big Trans!

stefanovich · 07-06-2016 08:08PM

Something I don't get. A lot of transsexuals are "pre op" meaning they have their penis and they have fake breasts and take hormones etc. It's like they want to have both sexual organs rather than transition. I also see that they are vastly overrepresented as a group in prostitution and pornography. It would suggest it's because they are sexual deviants rather than suffering from dysphoria.

stoplooklisten · 07-06-2016 08:09PM

mandatory potato sacks for all, it's the only way

Two Tone · 07-06-2016 08:10PM

Elemonator wrote: »

Why can't I wear whatever I want? Why this gender fluid nonsense comes into the equation.........I don't know..........

Of course you can wear whatever you want. There are quite a few comments to this thread implying this (an article on some clickbait website) means people's clothing choices are being impinged upon. Most people will continue to dress (and dress their children) in a conventional way. If I had children I would dress the girls in girlie clothes and the boys in boyish clothes, along with some gender-neutral stuff (which has always been around - e.g. a plain t-shirt/pants) - nobody would stop me. Most people are dressing their children as such and nobody is stopping them or admonishing them; most people do not notice.

stefanovich · 07-06-2016 08:10PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

because research happened and the medical guidelines got updated.

Are you sure research actually happened? Or was it a political decision?

RWCNT · 07-06-2016 08:12PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But then that would be my idea of an ideal world, if it wasn't for those pesky people and their other ideas! :mad:

Who in this thread is saying that though? I'm pretty sure that poster said they'd be all for different ideas if supported by research? You also insist I tried to quantify a suicide rate based on one factor when I did nothing of the sort, ignoring another poster's suggestion because you admit to being biased towards a certain viewpoint. You're the one coming off as if you're on a crusade here.

wakka12 · 07-06-2016 08:15PM

stefanovich wrote: »

I do care because it does affect me. People are actively trying to change what is perceived as normal in society.

You think that having your penis and testicles removed is doing no harm? Really?

I am sure there are many of the above who disagree with it too.

One example of the sometimes non-scientific approach the medical community have to classification is demonstrated in the reclassification of homosexuality from the mental disorder to sexual orientation by popular vote.

If it doesn't hurt you, and you don't want them then no. Like getting a mole removed

wakka12 · 07-06-2016 08:16PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Something I don't get. A lot of transsexuals are "pre op" meaning they have their penis and they have fake breasts and take hormones etc. It's like they want to have both sexual organs rather than transition. I also see that they are vastly overrepresented as a group in prostitution and pornography. It would suggest it's because they are sexual deviants rather than suffering from dysphoria.

Or because they are fetishised as a group..? They wouldnt be in the business if there wasnt demand for it, doesn't mean they as a group are all sexual deviants.

Black people are also over represented in prostitution, though you wouldnt go around making the same comments about them would you

Renegade Mechanic · 07-06-2016 08:23PM

wakka12 wrote: »

If it doesn't hurt you, and you don't want them then no. Like getting a mole removed

Oh my God... please look up what happens to the male body when the testicles are removed, for whatever reason...

Lyaiera · 07-06-2016 08:25PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Something I don't get. A lot of transsexuals are "pre op" meaning they have their penis and they have fake breasts and take hormones etc. It's like they want to have both sexual organs rather than transition. I also see that they are vastly overrepresented as a group in prostitution and pornography. It would suggest it's because they are sexual deviants rather than suffering from dysphoria.

The reason a lot of trans people are pre-op is because surgery is expensive in countries that don't have healthcare systems. In countries with it it takes a long time to get approved for it, with a huge amount of checks from psychiatrists, psychologists, and various other medical doctors. A lot of people don't get it done because of the practicality of being out of work for a long time after it, the stress put on the body, the difficult recovery, and other reasons. You have to be in good health to get the surgery. And there are massive waiting lists. Some don't want it because they don't prioritise it over other things such as social and legal transition.

Your comment on fake breasts shows how little you know. Trans women who have had hormone treatment have real breasts, some choose to get breast implants like other women choose to get cosmetic surgery. Trans men don't affect a voice, they have a deep voice because it's their voice. Muscle changes, body fat changes, etc. all happen because of the hormonal treatment. Basically all of this just highlights how you're arguing from a position where you don't even have a rudimentary knowledge of the issues around the medical treatment of trans people.

The reason trans women are often overrepresented in pornography is pure market economics. A lot of trans woman, especially from poor and non-white backgrounds are treated very badly and have high rates of unemployment. What are the reasons? Discrimination, lack of acceptance, personal problems from having to deal with hiding being trans, etc. Why is there a demand for it? Because lots of men are really attracted to trans women.

Are they sexual deviants? Are the women who do porn sexual deviants? Are the men who do porn sexual deviants? Are the people who watch porn sexual deviants? In my opinion it's just a job for the people in it, and for the people watching it they're just looking for a little before bed solo action. Who cares?

stefanovich wrote: »

Are you sure research actually happened? Or was it a political decision?

Of course politics got involved. There's lots of people like you who see trans people as "sexual deviants" and there's people who see transsexualism as an illness that deserves as much medical care and insight as anything else. Everything in the world is political, but ultimately it was a group of doctors who decided what was right. There's always going to be arguments, there's always going to be opposing views. At the moment the overwhelming opinion is that Ireland's, and the UK's and various other Western Nations approach to treating trans people is correct. This is a relatively new approach, with advances happening rapidly since the 80s. Research isn't heavily funded, because despite all the care coming from people in this thread who just wish trans people could be helped not to be trans, there's little funding for it, relatively. There are some passionate doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, etc. who have dedicated their lives to treating trans people, and it's through their dedication and experience that advancement is happening.

Renegade Mechanic · 07-06-2016 08:29PM

wakka12 wrote: »

My point is that Im sure you're fine with people spending lots of money on unnecessary dental surgery for perfect teeth, when perfect teeth arent necessary in your opinion. But most people are fine with this as people are allowed to enhance or modify their bodies the way they want to. So why is gender transition surgery any different, these people arent harming their bodies, they want to change their bodies to look how they want. It makes them happy, but you want them labelled as mentally ill and stopped from doing this

It makes a few happy. The rest continue getting angrier and angrier, you cannot say you don't see this online. And it's either because they understand what I outlined earlier, or they don't.

Gender neutral kids clothing

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