The Hazards of Belief

robindch · 07-06-2016 10:03AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Your sole complaint is one of sensibility [...]

I'm not quite sure how I can repeat what I said earlier without sounding needlessly repetitive.

To reiterate, breitbart re-edited a piece from the Luton H+P and include a number of dog-whistle stereotypes while failing to attribute the original article properly - effectively plagiarizing the content. And to judge from the hysterical reaction in the comments beneath the breitbart article - and I'm assuming here that these are from genuine individuals and aren't breitbart engaged in a little bit of light astroturfing - breitbart achieved what it set out to achieve - just adding a little bit more hatred to the world.

Some people appear to like that and seem to think it's an honorable and decent thing to do. I don't.

Links234 · 07-06-2016 11:33AM

I find it odd that anyone on an Atheism & Agnosticism forum is linking to Breitbart in earnest, considering the audience they pander to and reputation they have. The sheer amount of controversies they've been involved in, fake stories they've manufactured, the 'Friends of Hamas' debacle, or their hardline pushing of the Planned Parenthood "Baby Parts" video stings, they're one of the most blatantly unethical and untrustworthy sources you could possibly find, and with the many high profile lawsuits brought against them, I sincerely doubt people are unaware of the type of publication Breitbart is. I genuinely find it curious that a site like that gets linked here, if you take Breitbart seriously as a source you have to want to be misinformed, you have to want to be stupid, and you're saying I don't care if it's true or not, it confirms my biases. And so it's somewhat appropriate that Breitbart's being linked in the Hazards of Belief thread, because that's pretty much what it is, a hazard of belief, choosing to believe something because it confirms what you want. That's not skepticism, that's religion.

JPNelsforearm · 07-06-2016 12:05PM

A+A is about logic, rationality and fact, not pandering to the PC crowd, no matter how hard they try and subvert it into a "social movement", so linking to a site you find personally distasteful is irrelevant, good reporting is good reporting.. Your broader objection to reputation and audience is meaningless.

Complete strawman, when have I ever lauded any news source on here, specifically Breitbart, Breitbart are biased, no one is claiming they aren't, but, they will cover the truth when it suits their agenda, the original piece lied by omission, making the story more palatable of "a community not wanting a sex shop", as opposed to a (imported) resurgent religious morality impinging on free speech, and the interesting views the residents have of homosexuals.

The so called "msm" lies and is agenda driven as Breitbart, there is no difference, Breitbart may publish more **** on a quantitative basis, as they are a solely online platform and are not restricted by space, in addition to their target audience being US Republicans, but **** is ****, whether its published by the Guardian or Breitbart.. News snobbery is unwarranted, as it is false, all that matters is the fact of the piece in question.

At the end of the day its up to the consumer to discern when they are being spoon-fed ****, the piece I linked was not ****, it was in pink news(a gay news site) in addition to its initial local publication. What robindich characterises as "crude stereotypes" are accurately reported comments, that were not reported by the local newspaper due to political correctness.

Religion is believing so fervently in political correctness/diversty that you think importing religious fundamentalists from the third world will end in sunshine and happiness if only the "racists" and "bigots" from the host country can be muzzled.

robindch · 07-06-2016 12:18PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

News snobbery is unwarranted, as it is false, all that matters is the fact of the piece in question. [...] What robindich characterises as "crude stereotypes" are accurately reported comments, that were not reported by the local newspaper due to political correctness.

Pointing out that an unpleasant right-wing news outlet posts inflammatory articles is not "news snobbery" and I'd be fascinated to learn how you were able to enter the mind of the original article author and its editor and establish beyond reasonable doubt that details were withheld because of "political correctness".

If you're unable to see for yourself the descent from a mild, generally irrelevant article to an inflammatory, plagiarized one which generates significant online bile, then frankly, there isn't much point in continuing to discuss this.

Links234 · 07-06-2016 12:38PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

good reporting is good reporting..

Breitbart is the antithesis of good reporting.

JPNelsforearm · 07-06-2016 01:45PM

robindch wrote: »

Pointing out that an unpleasant right-wing news outlet posts inflammatory articles is not "news snobbery" and I'd be fascinated to learn how you were able to enter the mind of the original article author and its editor and establish beyond reasonable doubt that details were withheld because of "political correctness".

If you're unable to see for yourself the descent from a mild, generally irrelevant article to an inflammatory, plagiarized one which generates significant online bile, then frankly, there isn't much point in continuing to discuss this.

Just because facts are deemed inflammatory by yourself does not make this article inflammatory. The generation of online bile is, again, irrelevant to the veracity of the article, this is precisely the mindset the MSM has when the censor and omit or deign not to cover stories, they make emotive judgments, and preempt any "reaction", that may occur, or that they would consider distasteful, the non coverage of Cologne or not reporting ethnic backgrounds of criminals are prime examples of this..

How do I know the original article omitted the quotes for PC reasons? Its a staple of mainstream publications, its routine, when Breitbart and Pink News print them, its clear why the Luton paper omitted them, the Luton paper has to answer to the local muslim community, advertisers, campaigns etc, the online publications have no stake, they can publish the truth and any emotive or financial complaints/threats will have no impact on them.

The sole reason Breitbart exists is due to the MSM's abdication of journalistic integrity. Show me where this article has leapt off the deep end to be considered "inflammatory right wing bile".

Pink News, a gay site have largely covered it in the same manner as Breitbart.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/06/02/police-commissioner-objected-to-gay-sauna-license-because-its-too-close-to-a-mosque/comments/#disqus_thread

Are Pink News a right wing hate site?

A spokesman for the gay rights charity Stonewall said that the comments were “homophobic and hateful”, and could “alienate and ostracise people”.

Are Stonewall a right wing hate group?

JPNelsforearm · 07-06-2016 01:51PM

Links234 wrote: »

Breitbart is the antithesis of good reporting.

I would contend the majority of sites are the antithesis of good reporting, I'm not clamouring for Breitbart to win any Pulitzers here. The issue is, is that story correct, the answer is yes. Crying about other stuff they published, or worse, the reaction from the article as reason to discount the article, is head in the sand stuff.

Here is Luton Today with all the same quotes.

http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/business/business-news/gay-sauna-s-bid-for-sex-entertainment-licence-prompts-homophobia-and-hate-1-7403295#comments-area

recedite · 07-06-2016 02:30PM

robindch wrote: »

If you're unable to see for yourself the descent from a mild, generally irrelevant article to an inflammatory, plagiarized one which generates significant online bile, then frankly, there isn't much point in continuing to discuss this.

It may seem irrelevant in the global scheme of things, but the principle at stake is very significant. Its the idea that an islamic community can establish itself within a traditionally liberal community, and as their numbers grow they can start imposing a homophobic public policy on the area.
The police response may be pragmatic, but it represents a sacrifice of principles. This kind of response is only kicking the can down the road. It garners community peace within the area in the short term, but it jeopardises the peace and stability of the wider society in the longer term.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Here is Luton Today with all the same quotes.
http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/business/business-news/gay-sauna-s-bid-for-sex-entertainment-licence-prompts-homophobia-and-hate-1-7403295#comments-area

One of those who lobbied LBC to reject the application is newly elected police and crime commissioner Kathryn Holloway, who wrote to the council on March 28 after being approached by a member of a “very significant Luton mosque”.
Mrs Holloway wrote: “Luton Borough Council is usually particularly aware of matters of cultural sensitivity.
“I trust therefore that you will fully understand that, given the large and devout Muslim population in this area of the borough, there is naturally a high level of religious and cultural opposition to such a business among these residents which needs to be respected, in my view.”
The PCC, who said that the application had caused “widespread offence and very deep concern”, added her concerns that if Greenhouse was handed the licence “a number of potential policing issues may arise”.

The civil authorities have simply capitulated to the threats of this homophobic community. The concentration and numbers of muslims in Luton give them that kind of clout.

robindch · 07-06-2016 03:35PM

robindch wrote: »

Anybody think it's worth stickying a cautionary thread?

Lordy, lordy.

Ten years old today.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-06-2016 07:58AM

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin bemoans lack of Catholic intellectuals in Ireland.

The Catholic Church in Ireland is “very lacking” in people of intellect who, educated in their faith, can address the pressing issues of the day, Catholic Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin has said.

Clearly he doesn't think Iona are up to the task :pac:

Some letters in response:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/a-lack-of-catholic-intellectuals-1.2675751

Sir, –I refer to Archbishop Diarmuid Martin’s concern that the Catholic Church in Ireland is “very lacking” in people of intellect who are educated in their faith (“Archbishop Diarmuid Martinbemoans lack of Catholic intellectuals in Ireland”, June 6th). I do not believe this to be the case. The difficulties lie in a model of church that is male and clerical and in the absence of opportunity for discussion and for debate. – Yours faithfully,

THOMAS SWAN,

Kinnegad, Co Westmeath.

Sir, – Your report that Archbishop Diarmuid Martin bemoans the lack of Catholic intellectuals is not surprising. The same is true of all other churches and religions. Religions in general demand loyalty to a set of beliefs that is largely incompatible with logic and common sense. Religious beliefs in turn stem from stories that are millennia old, using outdated language and written at a time when irrational superstition prevailed. Modern intellectuals have difficulty in accepting these beliefs at face value and so are alienated from the major religions. Until religions start selling a saleable product, intellectuals will be driven elsewhere. – Yours, etc,

GARRY BURY,

Dalkey,

Co Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/catholic-intellectuals-1.2677250

Sir, – Further to “Archbishop Diarmuid Martin bemoans lack of Catholic intellectuals in Ireland”, June 6th). When a church leader bemoans the absence of intellectuals in his organisation, two things come to mind. The first is that intellectuals are alienated by the beliefs and attitudes of his church, and perhaps the church should ask itself why. Second, it does not make any sense for the leader of an organisation to denigrate the intellectuality of its own members! – Yours, etc,

TOM O’ROURKE,

Gorey, Co Wexford.

Sir, – All churches expect their members to accept a set of beliefs that people find difficult to understand. Then when a member questions a particular belief he is told to have “faith”. Faith is the willingness to accept a belief that one cannot rationalise using one’s own intellect. Religious beliefs could therefore be described as being anti-intellectual. So it is no surprise that intellectuals are conspicuous by their absence in church life. – Yours, etc,

SEAN O’SULLIVAN,

Crossabeg, Co Wexford.

JPNelsforearm · 09-06-2016 09:02AM

^He's correct, but the lack of intellectuals in Irish life is not confined to the Catholic Church, its across the media/public sphere, its just it would be even more pronounced in a deliberately anti intellectual profession.

volchitsa · 09-06-2016 09:17AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

^He's correct, but the lack of intellectuals in Irish life is not confined to the Catholic Church, its across the media/public sphere, its just it would be even more pronounced in a deliberately anti intellectual profession.

It may also be that the country has developed an attitude of suspicion towards intellectuals because the Irish Catholic Church's anti-intellectual influence has been so widespread in all domains of public life.

oscarBravo · 09-06-2016 09:35AM

volchitsa wrote: »

It may also be that the country has developed an attitude of suspicion towards intellectuals because the Irish Catholic Church's anti-intellectual influence has been so widespread in all domains of public life.

This, coupled with the newfound air of respectability lent to uninformed opinion by the soapbox of the Internet.

cowboyBuilder · 09-06-2016 10:10AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Delightful, if the one thing western Europe has been lacking recently, its diversity of homophobia, the Anglicans need to step their game up.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/03/tory-police-commissioner-objects-gay-sauna-plans-close-mosque/

The sauna’s owners withdrew the application after receiving a barrage of homophobic abuse from the local Muslim community.

Greenhouse Health Club in Luton has been operating for 18 years,

LBC told Luton Herald & Post that it had received 103 letters of objection, citing concerns over “cultural sensitivity”, the sauna’s “proximity to places of worship”.

It also received a petition signed by 430 local residents which included homophobic comments with their signatures, including assertions that homosexuality is a “brain disease” and that it is caused by “incorrect thinking”.

In a letter of objection sent to Luton Borough Council (LBC), she said that the application had caused “widespread offence and very deep concern,” and warned that if it permission was granted “a number of potential policing issues may arise” due to the sauna’s proximity to a “very significant Luton mosque”

Well it's ok for certain religious groups to be bigoted and homophobic.
Then when it's pointed out - we are the bigots :rolleyes:

World gone mad.

robindch · 09-06-2016 02:34PM

Investigators believe that a German refugee processing center was burned down deliberately because of a religious disagreement amongst islamic believers over the size of portions of food:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36487781

silverharp · 09-06-2016 02:39PM

robindch wrote: »

Investigators believe that a German refugee processing center was burned down deliberately because of a religious disagreement amongst islamic believers over the size of portions of food:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36487781

the version I heard was that the staff didn't wake them up for their Ramadan meal , but either one is bonkers

Hotblack Desiato · 10-06-2016 06:53AM

Article on the investigation of the Bangladeshi secularist murders.

Close to the planned date of the attack, the other operative, an ideologist, introduced the killers to Babu’s writings. The students were given samples calculated to stir them up. “What is the punishment for someone who writes these insults?” the trainer asked them. The group answered in unison, day after day, “Only death,” the arrested students told investigators.

fran17 · 11-06-2016 10:53AM

volchitsa wrote: »

It may also be that the country has developed an attitude of suspicion towards intellectuals because the Irish Catholic Church's anti-intellectual influence has been so widespread in all domains of public life.

Oh dear,oh dear.Surely now in AD 2016 this myth that was invented by eighteenth century philosophers/academics of the irreligious and protestant revisionist variety regarding the Catholic Church being responsible for the "dark ages" and the suppression of science has been dispelled?
Please don't begin sighting "facts" spawned from some of the "enlightenment's" greatest liars such as Voltaire,Locke and Hume.

PopePalpatine · 11-06-2016 11:10AM

fran17 wrote: »

Oh dear,oh dear.Surely now in AD 2016 this myth that was invented by eighteenth century philosophers/academics of the irreligious and protestant revisionist variety regarding the Catholic Church being responsible for the "dark ages" and the suppression of science has been dispelled?
Please don't begin sighting "facts" spawned from some of the "enlightenment's" greatest liars such as Voltaire,Locke and Hume.

They were talking about the Irish part of the RCC, not the RCC as a whole (then again, the RCC has something to answer about the Inquisitions). The most intellectual the Irish RCC has been (at least since the days following the fall of Rome) was contributing to ultramontanism.

What offends you so much about the Enlightenment, anyway?

volchitsa · 11-06-2016 11:17AM

fran17 wrote: »

Oh dear,oh dear.Surely now in AD 2016 this myth that was invented by eighteenth century philosophers/academics of the irreligious and protestant revisionist variety regarding the Catholic Church being responsible for the "dark ages" and the suppression of science has been dispelled?
Please don't begin sighting "facts" spawned from some of the "enlightenment's" greatest liars such as Voltaire,Locke and Hume.

Did you miss the word "Irish" in that post of mine that you quoted?
You appear to have.

And if you need any further clarification I was referring to the version of Irish Catholicism that developed with Maynooth, especially post famine, a very backward-looking, conservative and anti-intellectual form of Catholicism, easily the equivalent in terms of blind ignorance and refusal to allow people to think for themselves as any modern version of Islam, if rather less murderous than most of those, luckily.

fran17 · 11-06-2016 11:39AM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

They were talking about the Irish part of the RCC, not the RCC as a whole (then again, the RCC has something to answer about the Inquisitions). The most intellectual the Irish RCC has been (at least since the days following the fall of Rome) was contributing to ultramontanism.

What offends you so much about the Enlightenment, anyway?

What offends me most is,as should anybody of logical thought,is the fact that it is a fraud.A creation of the reformation,portraying Protestantism and the irreligious as the saviours of Europe from the dead hand of Roman Catholicism.The Church being portrayed as the barrier which supressed knowledge and scientific advancement.Its just not true.It's truly amazing that even up until a few years ago German textbooks still regurgitated the lie about Columbus and the flat earth.Truly amazing.

fran17 · 11-06-2016 11:50AM

volchitsa wrote: »

Did you miss the word "Irish" in that post of mine that you quoted?
You appear to have.

And if you need any further clarification I was referring to the version of Irish Catholicism that developed with Maynooth, especially post famine, a very backward-looking, conservative and anti-intellectual form of Catholicism, easily the equivalent in terms of blind ignorance and refusal to allow people to think for themselves as any modern version of Islam, if rather less murderous than most of those, luckily.

Fair point then,I'm not very familiar with Maynooth post famine but I'd be mildly suspicious about the claim that they refuse to allow people to think for themselves.To say that Catholicism in Maynooth is less murderous than modern Islam sounds a bit Gibbonesque in fairness.

Absolam · 11-06-2016 12:09PM

Does the country have an attitude of suspicion towards intellectuals? I always thought our general antipathy was reserved for Englishmen and people with more than us...

PopePalpatine · 11-06-2016 05:32PM

fran17 wrote: »

What offends me most is,as should anybody of logical thought,is the fact that it is a fraud.A creation of the reformation,portraying Protestantism and the irreligious as the saviours of Europe from the dead hand of Roman Catholicism.The Church being portrayed as the barrier which supressed knowledge and scientific advancement.Its just not true.It's truly amazing that even up until a few years ago German textbooks still regurgitated the lie about Columbus and the flat earth.Truly amazing.

Are you suggesting the Age of Enlightenment was a piece of Protestant propaganda? Tell me, what contributions did Catholic states prior to the Age of Enlightenment make towards empiricism, republicanism (or at least opposition to absolute monarchy) and freedom of religion, expression & association?

volchitsa · 11-06-2016 08:25PM

fran17 wrote: »

Fair point then,I'm not very familiar with Maynooth post famine but I'd be mildly suspicious about the claim that they refuse to allow people to think for themselves.

And yet the fact is that the Catholic Church actively wanted to prevent people from reading the bible themselves in case they might get dangerous ideas not mediated via the clergy. Which is why the first Bible translated into Irish was a Protestant one. Maynooth was horrified at the idea.

The Church wanted a flock that did as it was told - that requires people not having their own opinions. I don't see how anyone can deny that, there are all sorts of examples. The bible is only one.

To say that Catholicism in Maynooth is less murderous than modern Islam sounds a bit Gibbonesque in fairness.

Yet I'm certain that if I hadn't put in that proviso, you or someone else would have protested that I was implying that one was as murderous as the other, when I think one has to admit that the Catholic church, well, all Christian religions really, have a very different record in terms of killing opponents than modern Islamic regimes or groups.

Pherekydes · 11-06-2016 09:22PM

volchitsa wrote: »

...when I think one has to admit that the Catholic church, well, all Christian religions really, have a very different record in terms of killing opponents than modern Islamic regimes or groups.

Yep, it's really great that they've stopped burning people at the stake.

fran17 · 12-06-2016 04:09PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Are you suggesting the Age of Enlightenment was a piece of Protestant propaganda? Tell me, what contributions did Catholic states prior to the Age of Enlightenment make towards empiricism, republicanism (or at least opposition to absolute monarchy) and freedom of religion, expression & association?

I'm confirming that just as eighteenth century philosophers invented the "dark ages" they also created the "enlightenment" as means to confirm that Europe had finally been freed from Roman Catholic suppression on freedom and knowledge.Any modern scholar today will look with deep suspicion on both of these terms.
Regarding scientific advancement in the centuries preceding the fraud of the enlightenment,well an overwhelming amount of evidence exists now.The first universities of Europe,Bologna,Paris,Oxford,Vienna etc. all enjoyed huge privilege from the church.They were the envy of all during this time.Theology and Scholasticism forwarded the advancement of science throughout the period that was fraudulently know as the dark ages.Among many others,human physiology made huge advances.Nicolaus Copernicus,attributed with the start of the scientific revolution,was a Catholic canon from Poland who received his education in Italy from the best scholastic professors of the time.Roger Bacon,a Franciscan,produced the Opus Majus on behalf of pope Clement IV.William Ockham,another Franciscan,noted for the Ockham razor principal.I could go on all day.Isaac Newton rightfully stated "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants"
The church supported many republican governments in early Italian city states.The Magna Carta was hugely influenced by the church and this fact has been shamefully airbrushed during the so called age of enlightenment.All revolutions have resulted in horrific violence being inflicted on the church and clergy.During the French revolution the church accepted the elimination of the tithe and seizure of all property but still were deemed an enemy and faced attempts to eliminate them completely.The church was never an enemy of democracy but merely worked with the hand they were dealt.The term "divine right of kings" which was wrongly accredited to Roman Catholicism was in fact a Protestant doctrine from the seventeenth century.
Paganism survived for many centuries and eventually sank into obscurity through time,anything else is merely revisionist nonsense cooked up during the "enlightenment".

JPNelsforearm · 12-06-2016 04:27PM

Moving to a first world country, but retaining your third world belief system
index.php?action=dlattach;topic=612057.0;attach=680832;image

oscarBravo · 12-06-2016 08:24PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Moving to a first world country...

He was born in the US. But hey: it's not like mere facts have ever interrupted your bigotry before.

JPNelsforearm · 12-06-2016 09:15PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

He was born in the US. But hey: it's not like mere facts have ever interrupted your bigotry before.

If you keep calling me a bigot can I start calling you a cuck? Or does the whole trading insults thing only fly one way?

The Hazards of Belief

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