Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*

delaney001 · 01-06-2016 08:43PM

Cornerback1 wrote: »

I think, in a way, it's not even the coaches. The lads are being developed far faster than they should. Nearly in a professional way and by the time they get to 18 or 19, they are fed up or the hunger isn't there.

All this development stuff comes from professional sports but these lads are still at school and still play with the clubs.

In a way, they get burnt out when they reach 20...the very opposite of what should be happening to them i.e. starting to reach their full potential.

In other counties it's worse as they play both hurling and football. Their coaches, in every team, want their pound of flesh.

Let them play the game as lads and naturally!!

But sure then what are you going to do, abandon development squads and all the work that goes in at underage county level. We'd be exactly where are cork are now, in 8 years time. Pulling out hair out trying to reverse it.

Cornerback1 · 01-06-2016 08:50PM

delaney001 wrote: »

Cornerback1 wrote: »

I think, in a way, it's not even the coaches. The lads are being developed far faster than they should. Nearly in a professional way and by the time they get to 18 or 19, they are fed up or the hunger isn't there.

All this development stuff comes from professional sports but these lads are still at school and still play with the clubs.

In a way, they get burnt out when they reach 20...the very opposite of what should be happening to them i.e. starting to reach their full potential.

In other counties it's worse as they play both hurling and football. Their coaches, in every team, want their pound of flesh.

Let them play the game as lads and naturally!!

But sure then what are you going to do, abandon development squads and all the work that goes in at underage county level. We'd be exactly where are cork are now, in 8 years time. Pulling out hair out trying to reverse it.

I just think there is too much emphasis on development squads. I wouldn't down tools.

The key question is are these development squads 'developing' players for their age group, minors, U21's or the longer term i.e seniors?

It's probably too early to say, if you look at seniors for example, how many of the current U16 / U17 development will have a 'long' (probably not the right word) career as a KK senior?

citykat · 01-06-2016 09:13PM

Cornerback1 wrote: »

delaney001 wrote: »

Cornerback1 wrote: »

I think, in a way, it's not even the coaches. The lads are being developed far faster than they should. Nearly in a professional way and by the time they get to 18 or 19, they are fed up or the hunger isn't there.

All this development stuff comes from professional sports but these lads are still at school and still play with the clubs.

In a way, they get burnt out when they reach 20...the very opposite of what should be happening to them i.e. starting to reach their full potential.

In other counties it's worse as they play both hurling and football. Their coaches, in every team, want their pound of flesh.

Let them play the game as lads and naturally!!

But sure then what are you going to do, abandon development squads and all the work that goes in at underage county level. We'd be exactly where are cork are now, in 8 years time. Pulling out hair out trying to reverse it.

I just think there is too much emphasis on development squads. I wouldn't down tools.

The key question is are these development squads 'developing' players for their age group, minors, U21's or the longer term i.e seniors?

It's probably too early to say, if you look at seniors for example, how many of the current U16 / U17 development will have a 'long' (probably not the right word) career as a KK senior?

My understanding of the original intent of the development squads was a raising of standards not hothousing hurlers.

unrealtime · 02-06-2016 09:47AM

The standard served up by Dublin and Wexford suggests that we are not too far behind, if behind at all.

I thought the ref had a shocker. He failed to protect the players on the pitch from assault. At least one player should have got a straight red. Also the fact that the tie was in Wexford Park may explain why Wexford found it so
much easier to get frees than the Dubs did. Wexford were truly awful.

We'll see whether Westmeath's game can stand up

dubcat51 · 02-06-2016 11:17AM

Look winning minor and u21 is a bonus.Its all about winning at senior.we havent won a 21 in quiet a while.yet Joyce p.walsh Walter ger awkward Colin fennelly and others have come through and won senior.tj Richie winning in 08.so the core group of our seniors have progressed through 21s Think we are getting a over reaction to recent results.galway limerick clare have had great 21 success. But only clare in 13 won a senior (lucky one).

tbiggertycome · 02-06-2016 03:04PM

I heard Ollie Walsh from the Boro and Mark Bergin from OLG have both been called in to the squad and both are hurling very well. They had a day in Carton Hse on Saturday just up for the day no overnight stay.

In the last two rounds of club games both these players stood out to me as lads who are at or very close to the level required for intercounty so I'm heartened to see that lads hard work and application is noted and rewarded with a chance to make a stake for a place on the panel.

Walsh has really hardened up over the winter and really pushed on in terms of his performances. He was outstanding against the Fenians in a game the Boro won easily in the end but it was from hard graft put in by him and others that they pulled away in the second half. Against the Village he was as busy and effective but just didn't get on the scoreboard but given the conditions that day I'm glad he wasn't going for points it showed good maturity. He might be a lad slow to develop but he's definitely improved beyond all recognition from last year.
Scores in senior club this year:
Total He scored 0-05 out of 5-40 and 0-05 from play a good return for a midfielder
St Martins He scored 0-2 out of 0-13 and 0-02 from play
Fenians He scored 0-3 out of 4-15 and 0-3 was from play
James Stephens He scored 0-0 out of 1-12 and 0-0 was from play

I only saw Bergin against Clara and he surprised me that day as he is often anonymous enough from play but lethal from frees and 65's. His attitude seems to have changed and he worked fierce hard and picked off some nice points from play. He's always been a player you'd wonder why he hasn't pushed on but he's obviously stepped it up a notch and it's reaping dividends for him.
Scores in senior club this year:
Total He scored 1-28 out of 5-42 and 1-08 from play
Erins Own He scored 0-6 out of 1-10 and -01 was from play
Clara He scored 0-12 out of 1-18 and 0-2 was from play
Mullinavat He scored 1-10 out of 3-14 and 1-5 was from play

Bonniedog · 02-06-2016 03:17PM

unrealtime wrote: »

The standard served up by Dublin and Wexford suggests that we are not too far behind, if behind at all.

I thought the ref had a shocker. He failed to protect the players on the pitch from assault. At least one player should have got a straight red. Also the fact that the tie was in Wexford Park may explain why Wexford found it so
much easier to get frees than the Dubs did. Wexford were truly awful.

We'll see whether Westmeath's game can stand up

He was bad. As Allen said in his commentary, under 21s tend not to know each other that well so there's no grudges and scores being settled. Had that been Dubs and Wexford seniors it would have turned nasty given the erratic, to say the least!, officiating.

You could argue about the O'Donnell 'shoulder' and whether it deserved a card. There was surely no doubt about the assault on Seán Treacy, nor of the colour of the card it warranted.

northern lad · 02-06-2016 07:37PM

dubcat51 wrote: »

Look winning minor and u21 is a bonus.Its all about winning at senior.we havent won a 21 in quiet a while.yet Joyce p.walsh Walter ger awkward Colin fennelly and others have come through and won senior.tj Richie winning in 08.so the core group of our seniors have progressed through 21s Think we are getting a over reaction to recent results.galway limerick clare have had great 21 success. But only clare in 13 won a senior (lucky one).

I think losing to Westmeath given the quality of our players is very hard to excuse. Great players, and what a player don't necessarily make managers. One of the selectors is barely out of U 21 and totally inexperienced at this level.
Someone got this very wrong

citykat · 02-06-2016 09:21PM

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I heard Ollie Walsh from the Boro and Mark Bergin from OLG have both been called in to the squad and both are hurling very well. They had a day in Carton Hse on Saturday just up for the day no overnight stay.

In the last two rounds of club games both these players stood out to me as lads who are at or very close to the level required for intercounty so I'm heartened to see that lads hard work and application is noted and rewarded with a chance to make a stake for a place on the panel.

Walsh has really hardened up over the winter and really pushed on in terms of his performances. He was outstanding against the Fenians in a game the Boro won easily in the end but it was from hard graft put in by him and others that they pulled away in the second half. Against the Village he was as busy and effective but just didn't get on the scoreboard but given the conditions that day I'm glad he wasn't going for points it showed good maturity. He might be a lad slow to develop but he's definitely improved beyond all recognition from last year.
Scores in senior club this year:
Total He scored 0-05 out of 5-40 and 0-05 from play a good return for a midfielder
St Martins He scored 0-2 out of 0-13 and 0-02 from play
Fenians He scored 0-3 out of 4-15 and 0-3 was from play
James Stephens He scored 0-0 out of 1-12 and 0-0 was from play

I only saw Bergin against Clara and he surprised me that day as he is often anonymous enough from play but lethal from frees and 65's. His attitude seems to have changed and he worked fierce hard and picked off some nice points from play. He's always been a player you'd wonder why he hasn't pushed on but he's obviously stepped it up a notch and it's reaping dividends for him.
Scores in senior club this year:
Total He scored 1-28 out of 5-42 and 1-08 from play
Erins Own He scored 0-6 out of 1-10 and -01 was from play
Clara He scored 0-12 out of 1-18 and 0-2 was from play
Mullinavat He scored 1-10 out of 3-14 and 1-5 was from play

I'd agree with you on Walsh. Was playing very well against Fenians at MF until they switched him with Buckley purely to get Buckley into the game. Also had a good game against the Village particularly the second half. The one criticism I'd have of him is he sometimes looks for a short pass when he should be driving it long.
Bringing lads into the panel at this stage freshens things up and puts pressure on the established lads. No harm in that.

dubcat51 · 02-06-2016 09:26PM

The one thing that really annoyed me on the night was the lethargic approach of the players.were the management to blame for this (I don't know)given some of them are with the senior set up and the great attitude they bring to every game.how these players develop on will tell whether it was them or the management.watching last night's game it looks like we messed up on a great chance to win leinster.

Twiceasnice97 · 02-06-2016 10:23PM

frank Murphy would be in full agreement with the views being expressed about development squads.
Let lads develop naturally indeed.

JJs Left Hand · 02-06-2016 11:13PM

Was never impressed with Ollie Walsh up through the grades so I hope he's improved immeasurably if he's in with the seniors. Saying he played well against Johnstown isn't much considering they're septic. And I say that as a St. Martins man who watched them beat us a few weeks ago

tbiggertycome · 03-06-2016 12:54AM

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Was never impressed with Ollie Walsh up through the grades so I hope he's improved immeasurably if he's in with the seniors. Saying he played well against Johnstown isn't much considering they're septic. And I say that as a St. Martins man who watched them beat us a few weeks ago

To be honest it wasn't necessarily his performance against either the Village or the Fenians per sa but an accumulation and consistency which needs to be proven in county training buy there has been at 100% improvement in Ollies play so far this year.

I doubt he will break into the match day squad this year but next year if you had to pick for the league between C Fogarty, L Ryan, M Fennelly(injured most likely) O Walsh, R Hogan! I would hope he gets a few games in the league next year and a chance to earn a spot at the top table. I would be very surprised if he doesn't have a great cut off it in the league next year.

brookville · 03-06-2016 01:11AM

How are we on the injury list?will shane pender or mick fennelley be played/risked?very hard to risk lads these days and thanfully brian has learned from that.five of the six backs will pick themselves.fogary and lester or fennelley midfield,larkin,wally,tj and colin are certs so two vacancies he'll probaly pick power as one although he was also injured farrell had a good league and is a handfull and got 1-1 from play against clare and probaly deserves a start.bolger/kelly are two others in contention but our bench looks very light especially up front

kk1970 · 03-06-2016 07:58AM

brookville wrote: »

How are we on the injury list?will shane pender or mick fennelley be played/risked?very hard to risk lads these days and thanfully brian has learned from that.five of the six backs will pick themselves.fogary and lester or fennelley midfield,larkin,wally,tj and colin are certs so two vacancies he'll probaly pick power as one although he was also injured farrell had a good league and is a handfull and got 1-1 from play against clare and probaly deserves a start.bolger/kelly are two others in contention but our bench looks very light especially up front

You forgot cody as a cert, a place will be found for him I reckon

kkclubhurling · 03-06-2016 10:17AM

Obviously still a week out so a lot can change but talk that Joe Lyng could start in corner back. Also heard yesterday that Mark Bergin could play a part and maybe even start next Saturday.

brookville · 03-06-2016 11:15AM

kkclubhurling wrote: »

Obviously still a week out so a lot can change but talk that Joe Lyng could start in corner back. Also heard yesterday that Mark Bergin could play a part and maybe even start next Saturday.

Lyng starting would probaly raise a few eyebrows but cody has great time for him and his quicker than lennon and o shea who are both slower and more central players.bergin starting is more of a suprise considering he hasn't being involved in a few years but if he does start cody is being true to his word and starting players who are in good form in training

Hawkeye6 · 03-06-2016 12:45PM

tbiggertycome wrote: »

The minors is another matter to be honest I don't know how the management team got back in for this year. Look their doing their best but their not good enough and with some great talent have not got enough out of them. From what I hear Hoban wants to be everyones friends and the lads obviously aern't responding to it or taking him seriously. I would despair if they got another year at it and I hope someone can be found because they couldn't be much worse. For Hawkeye6 I still think your wrong when it comes to city schools influence being negative and all that argument, I do still agree though that the management have made a litany of very poor calls over the year and previous years.

A lot of very valid points well made, but it we ll have to agree to differ on city schools. To be fair the City Schools are doing a huge amount of great work and I didn t intend it to be totally negative and overlook their genuine promotion of the game, unfortunately, the management teams led by the current manager has not done any favours for a united front for minor which I believe has and will have effects going into U21.

However, I think it is safe to say that we agree on the following two points (and I know it is the thoughts of the vast majority of hurling people around the county); we DO have a lot of great young talent and a Minor management team continued to be led by the current manager would lead to a lot of despair around the county. Though who would replace him, would need to be well thought out.

I know several development squad coaches are totally frustrated by him as he as ignored their advice and suggestions on players on numerous occasions. In fact some have suggested he set about doing the complete opposite. I know many players both from city schools and non-city schools do not trust or understand many of his selections, both overall squad and team choices. I also know a former multi AI medal winner who has huge connections with one of the schools agrees with the sentiments of bias (though he suggest it may not be deliberate, just lazy), He goes a number of steps further questioning the overall benefit of having so many lads in the school who are not getting meaningful game time. Training against your friend in school is totally different to training against your team mate at senior with intensity in the Park and does not replace the reality of full blown matches. You re not in the same room all day with your marker at Senior. He also wonders how often the current manager has been seen at underage club matches all around the county, not just minor. For example four years ago, was he seen at many U14/U16 matches watching players develop?

The dynamic will change with minor being changed to U17. Try picking a minor team based on a college team which is u18 and a half then. It may be the one positive to come out of that rule change for Kilkenny. We are entering the unknown and the next minor management team needs to cover three years and know the young players coming through and have a genuine enthusiasm for the leg work around the county watching all teams.

northern lad · 03-06-2016 03:17PM

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

A lot of very valid points well made, but it we ll have to agree to differ on city schools. To be fair the City Schools are doing a huge amount of great work and I didn t intend it to be totally negative and overlook their genuine promotion of the game, unfortunately, the management teams led by the current manager has not done any favours for a united front for minor which I believe has and will have effects going into U21.

However, I think it is safe to say that we agree on the following two points (and I know it is the thoughts of the vast majority of hurling people around the county); we DO have a lot of great young talent and a Minor management team continued to be led by the current manager would lead to a lot of despair around the county. Though who would replace him, would need to be well thought out.

I know several development squad coaches are totally frustrated by him as he as ignored their advice and suggestions on players on numerous occasions. In fact some have suggested he set about doing the complete opposite. I know many players both from city schools and non-city schools do not trust or understand many of his selections, both overall squad and team choices. I also know a former multi AI medal winner who has huge connections with one of the schools agrees with the sentiments of bias (though he suggest it may not be deliberate, just lazy), He goes a number of steps further questioning the overall benefit of having so many lads in the school who are not getting meaningful game time. Training against your friend in school is totally different to training against your team mate at senior with intensity in the Park and does not replace the reality of full blown matches. You re not in the same room all day with your marker at Senior. He also wonders how often the current manager has been seen at underage club matches all around the county, not just minor. For example four years ago, was he seen at many U14/U16 matches watching players develop?

The dynamic will change with minor being changed to U17. Try picking a minor team based on a college team which is u18 and a half then. It may be the one positive to come out of that rule change for Kilkenny. We are entering the unknown and the next minor management team needs to cover three years and know the young players coming through and have a genuine enthusiasm for the leg work around the county watching all teams.

Any suggestions as to personnel who should be involved?

dubcat51 · 03-06-2016 07:02PM

Surely mentors should take their group all the way through from 14 to minor.then a mentor has had a long time with a group and should have seen every available player before minor.we have some great ex players who could bring squads all the way through . management would gain great experience .

kkclubhurling · 04-06-2016 09:10AM

kkclubhurling wrote: »

Obviously still a week out so a lot can change but talk that Joe Lyng could start in corner back. Also heard yesterday that Mark Bergin could play a part and maybe even start next Saturday.

Well Joe Lyng won't be playing, suffered a bad knee injury and will be out for the year club and county I believe.

minty81 · 04-06-2016 09:21AM

So we have Pender, Jackie and Lyng all injured? Who'll start in the left corner? And Holden in poor form beside him.

unrealtime · 04-06-2016 09:39AM

hope too many players mentioned in it don't read this site. If they do, they're doomed.

Cornerback1 · 04-06-2016 10:53AM

unrealtime wrote: »

hope too many players mentioned in it don't read this site. If they do, they're doomed.

We need to bea bit more positive. I think the minor and U21 results , probably because they were so close together, has cast a bit of a shadow over things.

In regards to the seniors, we'll see how things go next week. Obviously, they are a few spots up for grabs, both in defence and attack and we see how the game pans out.

Hopefully the sttitude will be good and we can get the win although i wouldn't worry too much about the performance but i'd want a few different players standing up and putting in a good showing, especially up front, instead of being dependent of T.J.

dastardly00 · 04-06-2016 01:05PM

kkclubhurling wrote: »

Well Joe Lyng won't be playing, suffered a bad knee injury and will be out for the year club and county I believe.

Shít. Very bad news for him. Here's hoping for a speedy recovery.

unrealtime · 04-06-2016 06:07PM

The gala need to do something about refs. Another shocker today when coulter got a deliberate hurley in the nuts almost in front of the ref. It was a straight red but the ref did absolutely nothing. Another abject failure to protect players from assault. Indeed the refs attitude seemed to be - ah get up and be a man!

unrealtime · 05-06-2016 11:08AM

GAA need to review matches and referees performances so as to be in a position to take remedial action against refs and players where due. They need to be much more proactive in this regard. Had Henry got serious eye damage in Thurles or Coulter serious damage in the nether regions yesterday, both from cowardly and sneaky blows, would the GAA really be allowed to deny that these happened.

One of these days - because of GAA failures and negligence in ignoring its duty of care, someone will take the association to the cleaners.

unrealtime · 06-06-2016 12:47PM

after yesterday how about a Clare Kilkenny quarter final in Nowlan Park?

donnem33 · 06-06-2016 01:43PM

unrealtime wrote: »

after yesterday how about a Clare Kilkenny quarter final in Nowlan Park?

that could surely only happen if it were a qualifier? are quarter finals not fixed for thurles anyway?

Realt Dearg Sec · 06-06-2016 01:56PM

unrealtime wrote: »

after yesterday how about a Clare Kilkenny quarter final in Nowlan Park?

Are we not still in with a shot at winning Leinster, or did I miss something?

Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*