Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

First congratulations to Westmeath.

Secondly, I am surprised, shocked and gutted that Kilkenny U21 lost to Westmeath (no disrespect intended to Westmeath) but I m NOT surprised the U21s won nothing despite that obvious hurling quality.



The quote above came from what I posted in the first of a series of my posts bemoaning the minor setup in Kilkenny over the past few years and the culture that has developed and the over dependency on the City Colleges, must especially St. Kierans College. That first post came before BEFORE Kilkenny were knocked out of both the minor and U21 (27Apr, P67). Interested parties will no doubt review the previous posts.

Suffice to say here that the culture that has been allowed develop by the minor manager and his various management teams started off almost unnoticed but is growing into a rampant disease. It is well documented that Eddie Brennan had to take drastic action relating to the commitment of a number of players who had got used to the less than challenging environment at minor. Eddie is an inexperienced manager who was handed the unenviable job to turn the culture around to what is expected of KILKENNY inter county hurlers. Not an easy mess to clean up.

Players are not being challenged at minor level anymore. Your choice of school dictates selection. I m reliably informed that one of the minor selectors said in January we already know our 18 or 19 players who will see game time . We are told the dogs in the street are barking about the player who walked back on the starting team after a self-imposed sabbatical. My surprise is that so few people are actually shocked by this revelation. How could that player have real desire . That culture at that age in a club team becomes very difficult to fix, what makes anyone think it is any easier at county level?

On the bright side, the players coming through are highly talented hurlers, but it is extremely important to re-introduce the senior values at minor and Under-21. It is not necessarily going to have a major effect on the senior setup while the current management team is in place as you only need 2 or 3 lads with the Right attitude to keep the momentum. For those looking for the source of the issue, look no further than the minor setup. Some people were talking about the success of the minor management over the last four years. With the quality of young players we have, an All-Ireland quarter final is the MINIMUM target. A semi-final is only one step further along than the minimum. Would I be correct in saying that in the old days before back doors, we d have only won one Leinster in four years with hugely talented hurlers?

Besides the culture steps, two immediate steps are required. A shake up at minor management and a development squad over the winter/spring for U20/U19 (players born 1997/1998). It may be too late to get some of the players back to the required level and confidence especially, but it should be tried. A lot of the players discarded at minor over the last few years are from border based junior clubs and we are codding ourselves if we think junior hurling is at a high enough quality for them alone. These are good players who need the opportunity to fulfil their full potential. Therefore they need an outlet to allow them play at a higher level in order to rebuild their confidence and faith in the system, to take advantage of the better attitude, work ethic and increase competiveness in the 19-20 age bracket.

Unfortunately, as I said before people have to realise there is an issue before a cure is found. It is a pity it will take so many defeats before people accept there is an issue. On the other hand, we are still much better placed than most counties and if action is swift, our dominance at senior can still continue. We still have the hurling (for the time being), we need to reintroduce competiveness, commitment and spirit into our culture.

Bring back the birch i say and have these young lads flogged in public, down by the new statue on John St, wouldn't that be appropriate. So as they are lashed the statute will remind them of there guilt of this "rampant disease" know as lack of commitment.

And woe be tied any 17 year old who may want to take a few weeks off to recharge the batteries having hurled and won Leinster and All Ireland medals with two different teams in his school. We can't be having that, lack of commitment is bad enough but that's just a lack of "real desire", that's way more serious! How big is this statue? Could you hang a lad from it?

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

In fairness, if lads want to be taking a few weeks off, then leave them to it, but they shouldn't be coming back in to take the place of lads who didn't take those weeks off. That's a disaster for morale on any team. Let alone the fact that you train every week for a reason. A few weeks without training and your touch can go to ****, I don't care how good you are.

So should the same rule apply to the current HOTY who walked off the panel in 2012?

I am sure he was tipping away with his club and at home with his brothers, and his touch obviously didn't go to **** as after John Donnelly he was our best forward on the day!

dubcat51 wrote: »

For me it was lucky he came back.as himself and donnellly carried us up front on their own.

But sure what about all that untapped talent left behind. Apparently there were better players left behind in the sticks cooling their heels. All because the manager doesn't care about results only that the townies get a game.

In a normal world, a chap that gives himself a holiday should have it made permanent. The fact that it wasn't should indicate how we were strapped for quality. I've heard of this manager ostracising players who wanted time off for the leaving. He hung up on the parent of one such lad who had the temerity to look for clemency. Btw this lad was a townie and a lad I would have thought would push for a place last year. So do I think this manager has a penchant for townies? Does he f**k.
This year an average Kilkenny minor team was beaten by a Dublin team who had previously lost to Wexford. That Dublin team was in the last chance saloon and played accordingly. It'll be interesting to see how the Dublin Wexford rematch goes. In 2014 Kilkenny lost dismally to a Dublin team they later put to the sword in the Leinster final. The rest is history.
Whether people like it or not the minor manager will be there next year along with his selectors. I don't see any worthy heir apparents putting their hand up. If people feel a change is necessary get on to your club county board rep rather than bitching anonymously online.
The U21 result is a shocker and will live longest with the players and management viz. the reaction on twitter toward Eddie. If that game were played again do people think the same result would obtain. I don't think so. Therefore to propose an overhaul of the entire underage system on the basis of a freak result is ridiculous.

I think the playing of minor intercounty matches in May is ridiculous anyway when we have an educational system where the course of a young persons life can be impacted by a set of exams that take place over a very short period in June, id love to see the minor grade retained but surely there is plenty of time to play it form late June to September. Not suggesting this is the reason we did badly this year because all counties are in the same situation.

citykat wrote: »

In a normal world, a chap that gives himself a holiday should have it made permanent. The fact that it wasn't should indicate how we were strapped for quality. I've heard of this manager ostracising players who wanted time off for the leaving. He hung up on the parent of one such lad who had the temerity to look for clemency. Btw this lad was a townie and a lad I would have thought would push for a place last year. So do I think this manager has a penchant for townies? Does he f**k.
This year an average Kilkenny minor team was beaten by a Dublin team who had previously lost to Wexford. That Dublin team was in the last chance saloon and played accordingly. It'll be interesting to see how the Dublin Wexford rematch goes. In 2014 Kilkenny lost dismally to a Dublin team they later put to the sword in the Leinster final. The rest is history.
Whether people like it or not the minor manager will be there next year along with his selectors. I don't see any worthy heir apparents putting their hand up. If people feel a change is necessary get on to your club county board rep rather than bitching anonymously online.
The U21 result is a shocker and will live longest with the players and management viz. the reaction on twitter toward Eddie. If that game were played again do people think the same result would obtain. I don't think so. Therefore to propose an overhaul of the entire underage system on the basis of a freak result is ridiculous.

The thing is though the Weatmeath result was not a freak result, we've been hammered the previous two years at U21 by Wexford, and a lot of these U21's have been well beaten by their counterparts playing for Wexford and Galway at intermediate level as well.

Considering our success at minor, schools and club level over the past 8 seasons since our last U21 win, it's not so much the result, but the level of performance and lack of progression that's the worry. The lack of progression is starting to show a bit at club senior, where the standard has dropped (even if Intermediate and junior have improved).

If the clubs start suffering, the county does.

northern lad wrote: »

There are a number of better managers. Will they be asked for 2017? Time will tell

Who

northern lad wrote: »

Beckerich72 wrote: »

Who

Any of the following ... M Fogarty, A Finan, M Purcell, L Smith

If the second or last lad on that list were appointed, the conspiracy theorists would go apoplectic.

Seriously though are any of these interested? Would Fogarty go back to minor? I doubt it. Finan was recently made principal so I'd say he's enough on his plate. Of the remaining two I'd say Smith would be the more likely. He used to be involved with the squads afaik.

babyjesus14 wrote: »

How about Cody do both jobs? Has been done in other counties and he has plenty of time on his hands since he retired.

Cody had a bigger say in the U21 team/panel this year than some might think.

His interference in U21 over the last 5 years is one of the main reasons for the dreadful performances.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Formosa wrote: »

His interference in U21 over the last 5 years is one of the main reasons for the dreadful performances.

You have some serious chip on your shoulder about Cody. Do you want to elaborate on this "point" or was it just an opportunity to get a dig in that you couldn't resist?

Thou shalt not criticise the infallible one...

You can't appoint 3 virtual management rookies and then be shocked when they can't get the team up to speed. I was hoping that the quality of hurlers we had could have got them going well enough but it only goes to show what a good strong confident management team can do for a team.

I was talking to the Kilkenny man who is trainer for the Westmeath, Seniors and U21s hurlers this year and he said he was very worried for Kilkenny after he met Eddie Brennan and Richie Doyle in the tunnel before the game. He said he'd rarely seen two lads who were so nervous before a game. While he was delighted for his Westmeath charges he was bitterly disappointed with what he saw from Kilkenny and he felt that the nervousness of the management had transferred to the players. There was no confidence or surety from the management or players. Our man in the Westmeath camp knows our bunch of U21s well after following them for years coming up and he reckoned that Kilkenny U21 team should have been able to beat Westmeath by 10+ points if they were led properly. He said for 50 minutes Westmeath were by far the better team and nearly threw it away in the last 10 minutes due to their own nerves but Kilkenny didn't have the strength of character to take advantage of this weakness.

I'm not blaming Eddie or the 2 Richies for the performance I think there nervousness only shows how much Kilkenny hurling means to them. To be honest however I don't think any of them have any real management experience and managing is a lot different to playing. When your playing you just have to think about yourself and get yourself right but when your managing you have to think of every player on the panel and treat them all equally. You need to figure out what makes each individual tick some might need a bollocking, while others need an arm around their shoulder and be encouraged. Different lads with different personalities respond to different approaches. None of the management involved have had the time to develop the skill set needed to manage, which takes experience by practicing with younger less important teams.

Another point someone raised with me was most intercounty hurlers don't have much of a clue of what young underage talent is out there and how they've progressed over the years up through the ranks. Theres a good reason why, because their focusing on their own game and performances and getting their own place on the team. Their in their own intercounty bubble but as a result their actually a very poor choice for an intercounty management job so soon after finishing their careers. They should go back and work with some clubs or actually ideally start with the development squads from the starting ages and work your way up through the ages with them. Imagine being on a development squad and your hero for the last ten years Tommy Walsh, JJ Delaney, Taggy, Shefflin walks into the dressing room as part of a management set up and starts to coach you. Young lads would kill for that.

There seems to be a bit of a panic reaction to these results over the last ten years. A few things need to be realised however.
1. We are producing good hurlers we're just not getting the right management in place @ U21 and minor to get the best out of them.
2. Other teams are getting better after putting development squads in place and are catching up to us particularly at underage level which makes it harder to beat them like we used to.
3. We do need to get our young hurlers winning again as winning is a habit and having lads finish their underage career getting beaten so early will eventually translate through to the seniors
4. Cody was asked who he would select for the U21's and Eddie is who he suggested. Personally I think it's a poor choice, Eddie given the right amount of experience could actually be a good manager but it is way to early to put him into that position.
5. Codys influence is definitely spreading beyond the Seniors and while that can be positive at times I'm not a really a fan. To be honest I would prefer if he just stuck to the Seniors and left his dabbling to the Village teams. He's a great man and has done loads for us but unless he wants to take the U21 job himself he should stay out of it. I don't know how much he was calling Eddie or how much Eddie was calling him, the latter is ok and natural, the former is interferring.
6. We need a better management selection process from the county board. The management teams should also have goals set and reviewed by an independent committee at the end of each year to see if their improving the standard of their charges and leading effectively.

I also know that 3 of the better U21's broke some rule (went out when told not too or some such) and were kicked off the panel earlier in this year they were then allowed back a week later. This is a terrible bit of management what does it show to the players?
1. The management treat the best players differently
2. The management are a soft touch and can be wormed around
3. The rules can be broken without long term consequences
The management should have done one of two things, drop them and their gone for the year or you give them some other punishment that doesn't involve dropping them. To me it just goes to show how inexperienced the lads are.

I feel sorry for the management as they were thrown in the deep end of the pool after only ever having drunk water and taken baths, now they had 60mins to sink or swim and as we know they drowned. I hope they come back stronger but I'd have my concerns and they need to get an awful lot of experience before next year.

The minors is another matter to be honest I don't know how the management team got back in for this year. Look their doing their best but their not good enough and with some great talent have not got enough out of them. From what I hear Hoban wants to be everyones friends and the lads obviously aern't responding to it or taking him seriously. I would despair if they got another year at it and I hope someone can be found because they couldn't be much worse. For Hawkeye6 I still think your wrong when it comes to city schools influence being negative and all that argument, I do still agree though that the management have made a litany of very poor calls over the year and previous years.

With almost 7000 posts in 3 years she can be safely ignored as she has nothing worthwhile to contribute

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Excellent wee thought out post tbiggertycome...without knee jerk reactions!!

In hindsight KK have the hurlers at underage coming through and that'll always be the way. I agree that being a super hurler doesn't mean you'll translate that to the management side of things. There's examples of this in gaelic and soccer but it just seems nowadays that it's the popular choice and a lot of recent ex-players through their name in..esp. at minor and U21 level where it's usually a shorter season and there's less pressure on them.

I am not a big fan of development squads - lads should be developed through their clubs. My own feeling is that lads are developed into machines too early and by the time they get to 19 or 20, they are fed up. Too much emphasis on these squads.

I would like proper analysis done on how many of these lads on development squads actually have a decent senior career i.e. lads who spend 4/5 years on development squads - will they have senior career of 8 years??

Some good coaches in squads but some not so good